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You don't have to go very far to hear people complaining about the structure of the WCS. In all actuality, most people have a valid point when it comes to regional exclusivity. However, why do we just assume that a foreigner will never be on the same playing field as Koreans? SC2 is a newer game in comparison to BW, which was heavily dominated by Koreans as well. But, there were the same opportunities on the table at the start of SC2 as a professional foreigner as there was a Korean.
This is not intended to argue about the WCS structure.
I'm curious as to know why everyone (even SC2 pros) just assume that a Korean being in the tournament means an unfair playing field. What materials have they been granted that aren't available to our foreign pros? Is it the level of play in general based on the regions?
It seems as if there are underlying issues there. On one side, people believe that a regional tournament should be specific to regional players. On another, people believe that any tournament with Koreans are going to be solely dominated by Koreans (which is fact, right now).
If a tournament is based on regions. I think there should be a specific qualification that prevent this bouncing around right now. But, it almost seems like the foreign community has relinquished any thought of ever contending with the Korean scene.
As a community are we completely rejecting the thought of any foreigner ever being at the level of a top Korean?
I know there is more than one question being asked here, but feel free to answer or discuss any of them.
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I don't see how anyone can respond to this.
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What materials have they been granted that aren't available to our foreign pros? Is it the level of play in general based on the regions?
Saturation of extremely skilled and talented professionals in a very small area with weekly tournaments (GSL / Proleague) to participate in. Not to mention all the infrastructure with the team houses and the cultural differences (gaming very popular for over 10 years).
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The whole thing becomes even more convoluted when tournaments that ARE region locked occur like Shoutcraft America and people complain that the quality of matches is poor.
It's like what? The same people that argue that Koreans should be omitted from competing then turn around and complain that an all foreigner tournament isn't fun to watch?
What it comes down to is that people want to watch Foreigners beat Koreans but they don't like watching them lose to Koreans, so we get mixed reactions that are fickle in nature to begin with. That's my observation anyway, but I agree with your overall statement.
Having Koreans compete isn't something fundamentally unfair, the best foreigners will still compete.
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Naniwa got into the top 4 twice this year in major tournaments over Korean players. So it's not impossible, just very difficult.
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The only way to be on the Korean level is by spending a ton of time training hardcore in Korea, the same way the the Koreans get that good. There isn't the infrastructure in the rest of the world to compete at the highest level, the best a player can expect from only playing on NA/EU against NA/EU players is to occasionally take map or Bo3 against mid-tier Koreans and that's very bleak.
We've been playing SC2 for long enough to have the evidence to back this up too, guys like Socke and Demuslim are great players and have the potential to be world beaters imo, but they aren't going to beat Life in a Bo7 unless they practiced in a Korea for a year or two and got to that level first. Naniwa, Huk, Idra, Thorzain etc. got to their highest skill levels by extended Korean style training in Korea. The rest of the world has shown it can't create players the same quality over the past few years, even with teamhouses (though it's a start).
The rest of the world can't compete because there isn't as much high level competition forcing constant improvements, nor are there many players training 70 hours a week like the dedicated Koreans do. Anyone who gets the chance to train with the best has a shot at becoming the best, but only Koreans get to train with the best.
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On July 04 2013 06:45 RiSkysc2 wrote:Show nested quote +What materials have they been granted that aren't available to our foreign pros? Is it the level of play in general based on the regions? Saturation of extremely skilled and talented professionals in a very small area with weekly tournaments (GSL / Proleague) to participate in. Not to mention all the infrastructure with the team houses and the cultural differences (gaming very popular for over 10 years).
But that is nothing that cannot be copied with sufficient commitment. Or how on earth could Polt have won MLG last weekend?
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At the start of a new game I feel things are pretty equal, which they were, with foreigners making decent runs and even winning over Koreans, but slowly but surely the superior practice (especially now with Kespa) environments and regiments start to kick in which makes it nearly impossible for a foreigner to ever become known as "the best".
I'm pretty sure there are some people around like Stephano and viOlet who can develop amazing skill without being in that environment. They found ways to practice efficiently and improve their play by training a smart way. Stephano in 2012 or viOlet could beat pretty much anyone on a good day, but of course, they weren't invincible themselves.
But now, with players like Innovation, Soulkey, Roro, Rain and Flash running around, there's a whole bunch of people who are just going to be mechanically superior because of their incredible training regiment and environment, and who are basically just as smart as any amazing foreigner (except arguably Innovation, who says himself he mostly relies on mechanics). While of course all these players can still be beaten by a foreigner, we're talking about a foreigner actually being superior here, and I feel that you'd at least need something close to that environment AND mentality.
But you can't just build a team house and place the best foreigners in there with a coach and hope for the best. Most foreigners wouldn't be suited for such a place. All the Kespa-people mentioned above are at this point completely used to their training regiment and environment, so they can maximize their efforts. They already started around 2000 building teams and what not, and all of them have pretty much grown up in this environment. If you'd consider SC2 to be our SC:BW, it takes at least 4-5 years from the start for serious teams to be formed and for this training housing to really become a thing, and then take another 2-3 years for people to really get used to it.. and then suddenly, TBLS appeared. And now, a few years later, a different group (besides Flash) of great players appeared. All really smart players who are also completely used to their awesome training environment.
If we'd ever hope to compete with that, it's going to take a while. The main problem is most of the Korean players lived in or near Seoul, so moving was less of a big deal than for most foreigners, who maybe have to travel to another country. But disregarding that, first we'd have to get people motivated to work together in a training house and to get used to that, maybe having team leagues to stimulate that and then after many years of getting used to an environment like that, and people really dedicating to it like Koreans are (obviously ignoring the other big problem: how "weird" it is to do such a thing in most countries besides Korea), there's no reason the foreign player would be mechanically nearly even to the Korean counterparts, and then when an exceptionally talented foreigner shows up, immediately making the most out of this Korean-like environment, this person could definitely be at the level of a top Korean.
TL;DR: Right now I don't see it happening, but with the right long-term plan while learning from Korea, there could be one in the future!
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I think that HuK once mentioned that he didn't have "slaves that [he] could get to play all of these games with [him]."
So I guess to deal with the question, BW in Korea (and I'm assuming that their infrastructure didn't change for SC2) had proteams with practice partners they could go to and get their BOs, their mechanics, and even specific things polished properly as well as other high-level players to play with. Most foreigners can't just call someone up and practice 10 hours straight on a specific map or set of conditions and as such would make the difference pretty profound.
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The difference is basically that Koreans have the best way to practice, and it can be said to be part of their culture. The current generation of Korean pros watched Flash, instead of Scooby Doo when they were young. In their early teens, those who aspire to become pro gamers, start trying to get themselves recognised, first by playing within a clan atmosphere (several pros are part of social clans), and then by participating in drafts with the hope of getting a spot on the B team of a pro team. Once they get that spot, they have the best training they can ever get. The best practice partners, coaches, tournaments to prove themselves etc. This doesn't exist in the West, and probably never will.
Foreigners have ample talent, having players like LucifroN, VortiX or MaNa who, by playing part time, can toe to toe with some of the better Koreans, or Stephano, who, despite not having the environments of the Koreans, was one of the best players in the world. If Stephano enjoyed the practice environment and culture of a Korean B-teamer, he'd probably be a legitimate bonjwa.
But unfortunately most of the time talent is not enough. Without the eSport infrastructure of the Koreans, foreigners will never be on a level playing field with them, and I doubt it will ever happen. Even most olympic athletes in the west are not as 'committed' as Korean SC2 players, because the culture prevents them from putting all their eggs in one basket. It would be silly for them to do so, and I'm actually glad people like VortiX and MaNa and Polt opt to get a degree and further their education instead of locking themselves up in a room to play a videogame competitively which will be outdated and forgotten in less than a decade - not everyone can be like Grubby and make a long-term career out of it. At the same time, it would be considered ridiculous, utterly stupid and mad if Grubby left his wife to focus only on SC2. But it is 'ok' in Korea it seems, to forego love in favour of a videogame (from what I understand, it is the same for Kpop stars, for example).
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its in their genes, they cant help it.
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On July 04 2013 07:01 mikkmagro wrote:
The difference is basically that Koreans have the best way to practice, and it can be said to be part of their culture. The current generation of Korean pros watched Flash, instead of Scooby Doo when they were young. In their early teens, those who aspire to become pro gamers, start trying to get themselves recognised, first by playing within a clan atmosphere (several pros are part of social clans), and then by participating in drafts with the hope of getting a spot on the B team of a pro team. Once they get that spot, they have the best training they can ever get. The best practice partners, coaches, tournaments to prove themselves etc. This doesn't exist in the West, and probably never will.
Foreigners have ample talent, having players like LucifroN, VortiX or MaNa who, by playing part time, can toe to toe with some of the better Koreans, or Stephano, who, despite not having the environments of the Koreans, was one of the best players in the world. If Stephano enjoyed the practice environment and culture of a Korean B-teamer, he'd probably be a legitimate bonjwa.
But unfortunately most of the time talent is not enough. Without the eSport infrastructure of the Koreans, foreigners will never be on a level playing field with them, and I doubt it will ever happen. Even most olympic athletes in the west are not as 'committed' as Korean SC2 players, because the culture prevents them from putting all their eggs in one basket. It would be silly for them to do so, and I'm actually glad people like VortiX and MaNa and Polt opt to get a degree and further their education instead of locking themselves up in a room to play a videogame competitively which will be outdated and forgotten in less than a decade - not everyone can be like Grubby and make a long-term career out of it. At the same time, it would be considered ridiculous, utterly stupid and mad if Grubby left his wife to focus only on SC2. But it is 'ok' in Korea it seems, to forego love in favour of a videogame (from what I understand, it is the same for Kpop stars, for example).
damn you Scooby Doo
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koreans have better training infrastructure
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proleague.
Koreans have proleague , so they have teams and houses and some match to look forward every f***in week.
they have teams because of the necessity to prepare for proleague and the best players of each team are picked to play one match weekly. thats COMPETITION at its finest , and it never ends weekly this players go through inhouse rankings to get picked for the lineup for the next match, rinse and repeat.
WCS its not a bad thing OFC, its something to look forward for foreigners and it will make easier to get a living out of SC for some ppl that was fighting the good fight before, the highest top of the class skill level will come ONLY from proleague or something akin to it in NA and EU if it ever happens.
this is my sincere opinion.
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So most people would agree that it does have something to do with culture?
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I conclude that scooby doo is the fault at hand!
Main topic: I believe that korean players, especially kespa players grew up with esports being a legitimate job, hence if they had such a dream of playing games as a job when young, it would still feel like a very solid and obtainable dream when growing up.
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It's time to stop using the word 'korean' to describe a good player, and 'foreign' to describe someone of lesser skill. Not all korean players are good, not all good players are korean; we are all individuals. Come on people.
That's my main concern. I'm not disputing that most good players and the biggest amount of such individuals reside in South Korea, but the view on the term 'Korean' really hurts anyone who isn't from that particular nation mentality-wise.
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The longer the competitive scene goes on, the farther behind foreigners will get, just like in Brood War.
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On July 04 2013 06:47 Vindicare605 wrote:
The whole thing becomes even more convoluted when tournaments that ARE region locked occur like Shoutcraft America and people complain that the quality of matches is poor.
It's like what? The same people that argue that Koreans should be omitted from competing then turn around and complain that an all foreigner tournament isn't fun to watch?
What it comes down to is that people want to watch Foreigners beat Koreans but they don't like watching them lose to Koreans, so we get mixed reactions that are fickle in nature to begin with. That's my observation anyway, but I agree with your overall statement.
Having Koreans compete isn't something fundamentally unfair, the best foreigners will still compete.
In most cases maybe, but I personally love watching foreigners get crushed by Koreans...
I like watching the best players play.
(and I agreed with the rest of your post!)
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On July 04 2013 07:31 Zackeva wrote:
It's time to stop using the word 'korean' to describe a good player, and 'foreign' to describe someone of lesser skill. Not all korean players are good, not all good players are korean; we are all individuals. Come on people.
That's my main concern. I'm not disputing that most good players and the biggest amount of such individuals reside in South Korea, but the view on the term 'Korean' really hurts anyone who isn't from that particular nation mentality-wise.
It's supported by hard data. There's no need to treat the issue with kid gloves. Foreigners are, in virtually every case, vastly inferior to their Korean brethren. This isn't a racist viewpoint, or being needlessly pejorative. It's a measurable phenomenon demonstrated in virtually any competitive tournament of value.
"We are all individuals" -- certainly. And the most talented individuals at SC2 reside in Korea.
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EPT
