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About the ATC in general - a little bit off-topicish
To be honest I have never seen any instances where the ATC site about Liquipedia was updated too late. These guys are often much faster than I am doing the LR threads. But I heard there are some issues with different versions of articles being visible dependent whether you are logged in or not.
And like it was said above, Liquipedia is rarely updated by tournament organizers themselves. The tournament organizer's job is it to fix stuff on their end first. ATC's website hasn't been updated as fast and as error-free as it should have been lately. Granted, the CMS has no facilities to run a league and everything has to be redacted manually. But this can be no excuse for very obvious oversights.
I don't like several things about league ops, too. In my opinion, organizing an English caster for every match and every map should be a top priority. You don't get a baseline quality for the league if you alienate English viewers by providing them no cast. If you get a cast 85% of the matches, you don't get 85% satisfaction, you get grief for the rest of the matches missing. And no, before Nathanias thinks I criticize him, this is something directed to the league organization, not him. I know you would prefer viewers to watch the German stream, but for many this isn't an option and just leaves you with dissatisfaction and lost viewers of the league overall.
And yes, I do understand that the WCS has not only decreased interest in all other content, but also ties you up with more work because you cover WCS as well. And working on the Homestory Cup is probably a marathon on its own. But still, I think the ATC deserves better and can do better.
About the admin bashing
I think a lot of people have illusions what admins are and what not. I have heard equally bad or worse admin stories in other (high-profile) leagues (what adds up in TakeTV compared to others is the subpar communication). The admin "job" is one of the worst you can get in esports and you will only get noticed by making errors. And with "job", I mean volunteer work, most of the times mixed with other things you have to do. Your company/league doesn't benefit from doing good admin work, you will only get called out when there is an incident AND it surfaces to the public. There is always a lot of bitching and whining but you will almost never see someone volunteering to do it better.
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On June 13 2013 11:12 leova wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 05:18 mikkmagro wrote:
It isn't bogus, mouz is the same..they just recruited two players and removed one. How is ADDING 2 players and then SUBTRACTING one anywhere close to "the same" ?? I think you need a dictionary bro... And I will again mention the double-standard (Karont3 can't play with LESS players, but Mouz can add MORE and not have any issues!)
It's not a double standard. Mouz still exists as a team (with some roster changes), Karont3 no longer exists as a SC2 team.
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Seriously, I'm not saying it's unprofessional because of the rules. It's unprofessional regarding the communication. I've experienced another way of unprofessionality twice from takeTV.net's team, that is why I as a german guy am no more interested in Take's streams, except for the HSC series. Those are great. 
Edit: don't get me wrong, I really like take's idea and what takeTV as an organization does regarding esports. But at some point, one should be more professional, and those guys are long enough in the scene to achieve that.
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Its quite clear to me what happend:
First, Take was ok with the replacement (T-Zain and SortOf)
Than Team Acer (the guys with the money to execute the cup) looked at the rank and thought: aww, would be better for our team if Karont-3 leaves.
Then they made a call.
Then take was no more ok with replacement.
We will never forget that Karont-3 without Lucifron an Vortix beats Team Acer!! Who ever ends up fourth did not deserve the spot!
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Just let them finish the cup and stop turning this into a farce. The admins already made a decisions, you shouldn't be allowed to change a positive decision as that makes it very difficult to accept anything the admins say or do any kind of planning.
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On June 14 2013 00:32 Paladia wrote:
Just let them finish the cup and stop turning this into a farce. The admins already made a decisions, you shouldn't be allowed to change a positive decision as that makes it very difficult to accept anything the admins say or do any kind of planning.
People are allowed to make mistakes and make the wrong call. A company is not bound by the snap judgment on one person who may not have fully thought it through. Also, when you are asking for exceptions to a rule, don't be shocked if people change their mind.
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I like how all the arguments to disqualify them basically boil down to "we want a team, not a roster blablabla". If you can't think of any sensible arguments to make a decision, maybe it's a plan to question the decision-to-be-made rather than pretend the arguments are sound.
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On June 13 2013 19:15 sVnteen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 03:36 StarStruck wrote:On June 11 2013 03:30 imbaSouL wrote:
i think acer made the right choice imo....can't hire ringer's especially when they are on teams already... It's for the competitive spirit. What do you do? Ask Mouz if VortiX/LucifroN finish up this little event with them? Finish what they started? Not sure if Mouz are one of the finalists who qualified lmao. Like I said before, I don't really pay attention to all the bush league shit. Every organization wants to have their own little mini tournament it appears. So I checked. Looks like Mouz is out. How about we do everyone a favor and let the two brothers wrap this up by playing with the team that's not even sponsored by Karont3 anymore? wtf are you talking about? mouz isn't "out" they can still qualify for the playoffs and the atc is not a "little mini tournament" ,it's the biggest non-korean team league we have atm so I dont know if you hate take tv or just have fun being toxic but pls stop being so unnecessarily negative towards everything... as to the situation: I think there is nothing wrong with letting the team continue with the manager as 4th player but admins are admins after all and they make the rules unfortunate but true :/
Perhaps you should read the entire thread before making such silly remarks (kind of ironic because I haven't been following this event closely and I was led to believe playoffs were about to take place). I already retracted it. Once again if you're going to call me out on a late quote you might as well read all of my posts let alone everyone else's before you come off as foolish.
With that said, this is a small tournament compared to everything else. It's small beans regardless of the length and you will have a hard time selling that to everyone else (being the biggest). I have nothing against TaKe (lmao). Once again if you knew my post history you would have seen me giving a lot of praise for the HSC. I was quite adamant about it. I give credit where credit is due, so if I have beef with something going down. You'll know about it.
On June 14 2013 00:51 Siphyo wrote:
I like how all the arguments to disqualify them basically boil down to "we want a team, not a roster blablabla". If you can't think of any sensible arguments to make a decision, maybe it's a plan to question the decision-to-be-made rather than pretend the arguments are sound.
This is what made me dwell on this for a long time because I remembered hearing about teams fielding the same players intentionally regardless of them losing several times. When I looked into it I was dumbfounded because it goes against everything what the TaKetv poster has said regarding this series. It doesn't reflect the rules (or lack thereof I should say). All we can hope is that they learn from this, but it's hard to fix bad Admins.
About the admin bashing
I think a lot of people have illusions what admins are and what not. I have heard equally bad or worse admin stories in other (high-profile) leagues (what adds up in TakeTV compared to others is the subpar communication). The admin "job" is one of the worst you can get in esports and you will only get noticed by making errors. And with "job", I mean volunteer work, most of the times mixed with other things you have to do. Your company/league doesn't benefit from doing good admin work, you will only get called out when there is an incident AND it surfaces to the public. There is always a lot of bitching and whining but you will almost never see someone volunteering to do it better.
I wouldn't really call it an illusion. More often than not they're recruited for the wrong reasons. Most of the time it's through connections. When it comes to recruiting most organizations suck at it and they don't know any better. They don't have a lot of power to begin with either. That's why you're always going to hear these stories about bad admins. It's a thankless position.
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As you talk about Liquipedia, I'm one of the several guys who update the ATC page and I have some troubles sometimes. For example, I don't understand at all the current ranking as it's showed on the ATC website.
How can a team with 4 victories (Axiom) be ahead of a team with 5 (mouz) ? That doesn't make sense. Yes mouz's map average is worse but it shouldn't be considered more importantly than the number of victories.
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France7248 Posts
On June 14 2013 02:26 Boucot wrote:As you talk about Liquipedia, I'm one of the several guys who update the ATC page and I have some troubles sometimes. For example, I don't understand at all the current ranking as it's showed on the ATC website. How can a team with 4 victories (Axiom) be ahead of a team with 5 (mouz) ? That doesn't make sense. Yes mouz's map average is worse but it shouldn't be considered more importantly than the number of victories.
because 4W-3L is better then 5W-6L ? it's not about map difference but victories against losses
It doesn't really matter anyway
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On June 14 2013 02:26 Boucot wrote:As you talk about Liquipedia, I'm one of the several guys who update the ATC page and I have some troubles sometimes. For example, I don't understand at all the current ranking as it's showed on the ATC website. How can a team with 4 victories (Axiom) be ahead of a team with 5 (mouz) ? That doesn't make sense. Yes mouz's map average is worse but it shouldn't be considered more importantly than the number of victories.
Number of wins minus number of losses.
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If K3 wanted to continue ATC so badly, it is hard to understand for me why they disbanded the team like immediately after Luci / Vortix left.
They could have just announced to disband after the tournament and there would have been no problems with them playing on.
A DQ is a tough call but in this case the right one.
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On June 14 2013 02:38 SinCitta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2013 02:26 Boucot wrote:As you talk about Liquipedia, I'm one of the several guys who update the ATC page and I have some troubles sometimes. For example, I don't understand at all the current ranking as it's showed on the ATC website. How can a team with 4 victories (Axiom) be ahead of a team with 5 (mouz) ? That doesn't make sense. Yes mouz's map average is worse but it shouldn't be considered more importantly than the number of victories. Number of wins minus number of losses.
o_o Well, ok. The fact that Axiom has a lot of matches late doesn't help. xD
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One of the strongest teams in the ATC is now gone T_T
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This is totally stupid. This is nonsense. One of the biggest screwjob I've ever seen in e-sport.
Guys, don't you remember the IPTL, when TSL disbands, and IGN allowed the former TSL members to continue the competition until the end ? Then why doesnt Take do the same with Karont3 ?
Moreover, the reason he gives (K3 isnt a real team anymore, it does not correspond to the definition of a team we have blablabla...) is nonsense too, and he is not the one who think that, I'm pretty sure he has been put under strong pressure in order to disqualify K3, as a matter of fact, he first agreed with keeping K3 in the competition, which shows that this "definition" of a team isnt from him.
So WHO is the real main admin of Acer's Teamstory cup ? Who took the decision to kick K3 ? None other than Kaoru, the Acer's manager, just because Karont3 beat the hell out of Acer WITHOUT Vortix & LucifroN.
+ A team is a group of people with a full set of complementary skills required to complete a task, job, or project. Just tell me how this definition doesnt fit Karont3.
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On June 14 2013 18:14 KingMel wrote:
So WHO is the real main admin of Acer's Teamstory cup ? Who took the decision to kick K3 ? None other than Kaoru, the Acer's manager, just because Karont3 beat the hell out of Acer WITHOUT Vortix & LucifroN.
This part is just completely stupid, if you really think it's the main reason, then why would have they keep Karont3 score and not nullified it, if it's just because of Team Acer's defeat. It would have been even better for them to erase it.
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On June 14 2013 18:29 Flaele wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2013 18:14 KingMel wrote:
So WHO is the real main admin of Acer's Teamstory cup ? Who took the decision to kick K3 ? None other than Kaoru, the Acer's manager, just because Karont3 beat the hell out of Acer WITHOUT Vortix & LucifroN.
This part is just completely stupid, if you really think it's the main reason, then why would have they keep Karont3 score and not nullified it, if it's just because of Team Acer's defeat. It would have been even better for them to erase it.
While his point may be stupid, I think his general idea is right. We do know that take and 1 admin was fine at first, and also that they talked to all the teams later on before changing their minds. And tbh if I was the owner of any of the teams in ATC and you would ask me if I'd mind the number 2 team getting kicked, I could not imagine any world where I would ever say yeah.
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On June 14 2013 00:35 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2013 00:32 Paladia wrote:
Just let them finish the cup and stop turning this into a farce. The admins already made a decisions, you shouldn't be allowed to change a positive decision as that makes it very difficult to accept anything the admins say or do any kind of planning. People are allowed to make mistakes and make the wrong call. A company is not bound by the snap judgment on one person who may not have fully thought it through. Also, when you are asking for exceptions to a rule, don't be shocked if people change their mind.
While that is true you don't say yes serval times yes and when people spend time and effort in the agreed solution say no.
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I think there is a clear difference: TakeTV might have expected new players to be fully signed with K3. Instead K3 just borrowed some good players from other teams, just like they did with Socke. So while one replacement player from another team might still be okay-ish, having 3/5 players just borrowed from other teams (while officially disbanding your own team) is not really a team anymore, it is just a bunch of players you borrowed to form your allstars team, which is what the Teamstory cup clearly was not about. At least this is what I am getting from all this. And I'm sure there was miscommunication on both ends (K3 claiming that they would sign 2 new players, when instead they would just borrow them, and people/admins telling them they are fine, when in fact they were not). Shit happens.
So please, put down the pitchforks.
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On June 14 2013 19:43 Cirqueenflex wrote:
I think there is a clear difference: TakeTV might have expected new players to be fully signed with K3. Instead K3 just borrowed some good players from other teams, just like they did with Socke. So while one replacement player from another team might still be okay-ish, having 3/5 players just borrowed from other teams (while officially disbanding your own team) is not really a team anymore, it is just a bunch of players you borrowed to form your allstars team, which is what the Teamstory cup clearly was not about. At least this is what I am getting from all this. And I'm sure there was miscommunication on both ends (K3 claiming that they would sign 2 new players, when instead they would just borrow them, and people/admins telling them they are fine, when in fact they were not). Shit happens.
So please, put down the pitchforks.
Okay, I see everyone is still going around in circles and not really reading or keeping up-to-date with what was already said in this thread. K3 already tried to get teamless players as well. This was said right in the beginning but they were denied because they weren't viewed as a team anymore because K3 disbanded after VortiX and LucifroN left. It sucks because an Admin told them one thing and then they were told something else completely. Not only that but when you look at all the activities that have taken place during this team league as you call it. There are a lot of concerns and things that don't quite add up when you look at the format and their mandate, so take it for what it is.
P.S. I find it hard to believe that one of the admins who was involved was Kaoru (if that truly is the case) because I remember dealing with the Frenchman all the time when he was part of MgZ). ._.
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EPT
