EPToh im sure of that. But way less and later in the game.
Never Miss An Inject? What the Data Say - Page 2
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SpikeStarcraft
Germany2095 Posts
oh im sure of that. But way less and later in the game. | ||
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Dingodile
4133 Posts
Did only 62 from 100 injects (if you do perfect) at this timeframe? | ||
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sCFade
307 Posts
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willstertben
427 Posts
because in lategame there will be a lot of these, while having more than 4 queens for injecting is bad (arguably it might be best to have literally no queens injecting endgame, because queens take up supply and you don't need as much larvae as ressources dry up and you only want high tech units anyway) | ||
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darkscream
Canada2310 Posts
On May 22 2013 04:02 Embir wrote: Terran is the most difficult race mechanically Zerg ..., it is just the easiest to master, it is the most noobie friendly race by far this mentality is disgusting and a cancer on the entire starcraft 2 scene. Guess which race has the highest APM on average? No, it's not terran.. we can cherrypick stats all day long. User was warned for this post | ||
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NEEDZMOAR
Sweden1277 Posts
On May 22 2013 04:06 SpikeStarcraft wrote: Im calling bullshit on this. I dont think what you showed there means anything. The inject percentage is correlated to the numbers of hatcheries. And in higher level play you have more hatcheries way faster. so after 10 minutes when the master zerg is on 4 base he does way more absolute injects than the silver level player thats still on one base. So thats not an useful comparison. "Wow, the silver level player hits injects on one base almost as good as master level players on 4 base. I guess injects dont really matter that much." Kappa this is definitely true, just use common sense and you'll understand how important injects are, when they stop being important and how a high level macro-zerg player in mid/lategame will always have more hatcheries than queens. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
Case in point, Masters will always have low energy queens, Silver will not. 30% Masters will have worse injects than the average Silvers? Don't kid yourself. Not even 1% of masters will have worse injects than the average silver, who would be still be Bronze league level under WoL. It just shows your methodolgy is flawed. All in all, this is just a poorly disguised advert for your sc2 training method. | ||
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orBitual
United States96 Posts
So what happens if a hatch is never active because it never gets an inject? Or it only gets one after being idle for 10 minutes and then you win at minute 11? | ||
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Ahelvin
France1866 Posts
On May 22 2013 04:12 willstertben wrote: does it count queenless hatcheries? because in lategame there will be a lot of these, while having more than 4 queens for injecting is bad (arguably it might be best to have literally no queens injecting endgame, because queens take up supply and you don't need as much larvae as ressources dry up and you only want high tech units anyway) The inject rate is computed using hatchery data, not queen. Could you run the same analysis using the number of hatcheries as a covariate at the different steps of the game? | ||
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On May 22 2013 04:11 Dingodile wrote: It is explained in the article.I dont understand it. What does this mean "Inject Timing = 62%". Did only 62 from 100 injects (if you do perfect) at this timeframe? | ||
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DemigodcelpH
1138 Posts
On May 22 2013 04:13 darkscream wrote: this mentality is disgusting and a cancer on the entire starcraft 2 scene. Guess which race has the highest APM on average? No, it's not terran.. we can cherrypick stats all day long. That's because of "S+ZZZZZZ". There's nothing disgusting about it. Terran was also the hardest to play in BW. | ||
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anatase
France532 Posts
On May 22 2013 04:14 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Yeah, this seems complete rubbish. Injects are important, no matter what what your poor interpretation and technique of your data says. Case in point, Masters will always have low energy queens, Silver will not. 30% Masters will have worse injects than the average Silvers? Don't kid yourself. Not even 1% of masters will have worse injects than the average silver, who would be still be Bronze league level under WoL. It just shows your methodolgy is flawed. All in all, this is just a poorly disguised advert for your sc2 training method. I would not be that aggressive but clearly it's not only counter intuitive it also goes against any kind of observations. Reaching a point where some can say a Silver hits his injects more often or as often as a master does not make sense, unless all the silvers game you analysed were played by smurfing masters. I am very skeptic about these results | ||
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Diavlo
Belgium2915 Posts
On May 22 2013 03:54 Embir wrote: Finally solid confirmation that Zergs macro is the easiest - we already knew they had it easy with only one production building and easiest tech switches in the game, now we know that they macro mechanic is also forgiving - and note that supposed unforgiveness of zerg mechanics was main argument for zerg's macro difficulty. How does this article confirms that Zergs macro is the easiest? If anything the fact that the best players in the world only manage to maintain a 60+ inject score kinda shows that it's pretty fucking hard to do perfectly. It would make sense that Lower leagues have pretty similar scores since it's the thing you should focus on the most. They don't spread creep, they don't deal with heavy harass, they don't expand as often and as fast. If you made an experiment about how different leagues manage the timing of their mule drops you would probably get the same results. | ||
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dsjoerg
United States384 Posts
On May 22 2013 04:06 SpikeStarcraft wrote: I dont think what you showed there means anything. And then: The inject percentage is correlated to the numbers of hatcheries. And in higher level play you have more hatcheries way faster. so after 10 minutes when the master zerg is on 4 base he does way more absolute injects than the silver level player thats still on one base. Now people know that the higher-level players are not hitting perfect injects on their 4 bases. Maybe you already knew that, I didn't. The original goal of this work was to set a benchmark for inject %. Ideally, we could tell a player, "Good job, your injects were Master-level in that game" as we currently do with Spending. However, based on the data, we cannot do that. That was the main conclusion of the article. "Wow, the silver level player hits injects on one base almost as good as master level players on 4 base. I guess injects dont really matter that much." You are suggesting the the # of bases and the absolute # of larva are very important, more important than the inject %. Good idea, I should study those at some point.  | ||
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DemigodcelpH
1138 Posts
On May 22 2013 04:21 Diavlo wrote: How does this article confirms that Zergs macro is the easiest? If anything the fact that the best players in the world only manage to maintain a 60+ inject score kinda shows that it's pretty fucking hard to do perfectly. He's suggesting that it doesn't need to be done perfectly to cross the threshold of being able to remax multiple times — hence the lack of difference between plat and masters. | ||
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Passion
Netherlands1486 Posts
On May 22 2013 04:02 Embir wrote: Some reading comprehension issues dude. Difficulty of playing given race has nothing to do with balance, as long as it is humanly possible to play other races to win. Terran is the most difficult race mechanically, but in right hands it can be powerful tool. Zerg might even not the most powerful race at the moment, it is just the easiest to master, it is the most noobie friendly race by far, as soon as you getting used to its specific mechanics. You're the one to talk about comprehension issues. Nothing in here points to Zerg being easier in any way than the other races. I must say I also find the conclusions made in the article somewhat weird. Mainly because there is a clear difference in injection consistency between the various leagues, but it also seems a lot of factors aren't taken into account (e.g. better players might have similar inject % but twice the number of hatcheries, also relates to the absolute inject question in your FAQ -> injects/minute?). | ||
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BPLOL
United States55 Posts
Maybe that's not important though | ||
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mnck
Denmark1518 Posts
It's a good point that later game units require less larva and it can become less important. Also high level players can relatively easy achieved max (19) larva per hatch just from injecting lategame. This makes the queen float a lot of energy or makes injecting redundant. Larva inject is by no means something that should be "kept up" but what would be a more interesting statistic, is how low the energy on the queens are. Thats something I'd love to see. If a queen stays low on energy then i'd be amazed! Not on the inject uptime. | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
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tenklavir
Slovakia116 Posts
On May 22 2013 04:31 TheRabidDeer wrote: Interesting, apparently I am a boss at injects. My lowest inject% is 61% in a 35 minute ZvZ and it looks like I average around 75% injects until 20 minutes in. Not bad considering I play only like 10 games/month right now. Take a look at your Unit tab counts toward the end of the game in a replay. How many larvae do you have? Do you need to keep injections that high to still be competitive at that point in the game or can you focus your APM elsewhere? | ||
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