On September 26 2013 22:51 Zax19 wrote: What they need to do is fix the cost of widow mines, that's the main reason terrans can just pump out a dozen of mines at a time and overwhelm the zerg. 75/25 is retarded for a caster, just look at the gas bank during mid game TvZ. Mines need to cost more gas than minerals, for example 25/75 while still being really strong against mutas.
Mines are supposed to help mech fight mutas. Mech play is already gas starved and we don't even know if mines will be at all effective against massed mutas after the nerf.
That's why I'd keep the stats but change the cost. Mech always had thors but the problem is that given the cost widow mines are just way too cheap so they get used with bio. So far I haven't really seen things like putting siege tanks on top of widow mines. At the same time you could buff the damage of siege tanks or buff the thor splash. In general these changes should make widow mines a bit less popular (while still very strong for 2 supply), siege tanks more popular and bring back thors in mech.
you say bio/mine has a leads to a huge gas bankand then say Blizz should increase the gas cost for mines while reducing mineral cost to stop bio players from making them. that doesn't really make much sense to me. if the bio player now has to spend even less minerals on the widow mines in exchange for having a smaller gas bank, that should be more than fine with him. on the other hand, 75 gas mines would severely cripple mech players that want to use mines.
i do agree it's a bit ridiculous that a mine costs the same as a roach though.
I get what you mean. It’s a question of army retention – right now you can throw away widow mines because they are cheap and making them weaker would only make people use them less while still not caring if they die. With higher gas cost you would be able to produce a lot less of them at a time, also medivacs would be more valuable. In mech compositions other units would have to be so useful that you don’t feel the need to overproduce mines. Throwing away hellions and hellbats should be more common while trying not to lose many tanks or mines. I’m not sure if making tanks cost less gas couldn’t cause more problems but higher damage should do the trick.
On September 26 2013 22:51 Zax19 wrote: What they need to do is fix the cost of widow mines, that's the main reason terrans can just pump out a dozen of mines at a time and overwhelm the zerg. 75/25 is retarded for a caster, just look at the gas bank during mid game TvZ. Mines need to cost more gas than minerals, for example 25/75 while still being really strong against mutas.
Mines are supposed to help mech fight mutas. Mech play is already gas starved and we don't even know if mines will be at all effective against massed mutas after the nerf.
That's why I'd keep the stats but change the cost. Mech always had thors but the problem is that given the cost widow mines are just way too cheap so they get used with bio. So far I haven't really seen things like putting siege tanks on top of widow mines. At the same time you could buff the damage of siege tanks or buff the thor splash. In general these changes should make widow mines a bit less popular (while still very strong for 2 supply), siege tanks more popular and bring back thors in mech.
you say bio/mine has a leads to a huge gas bankand then say Blizz should increase the gas cost for mines while reducing mineral cost to stop bio players from making them. that doesn't really make much sense to me. if the bio player now has to spend even less minerals on the widow mines in exchange for having a smaller gas bank, that should be more than fine with him. on the other hand, 75 gas mines would severely cripple mech players that want to use mines.
i do agree it's a bit ridiculous that a mine costs the same as a roach though.
I get what you mean. It’s a question of army retention – right now you can throw away widow mines because they are cheap and making them weaker would only make people use them less while still not caring if they die. With higher gas cost you would be able to produce a lot less of them at a time, also medivacs would be more valuable. In mech compositions other units would have to be so useful that you don’t feel the need to overproduce mines. Throwing away hellions and hellbats should be more common while trying not to lose many tanks or mines. I’m not sure if making tanks cost less gas couldn’t cause more problems but higher damage should do the trick.
Maybe just have them techlab only and keep the current splash?
On September 26 2013 22:51 Zax19 wrote: What they need to do is fix the cost of widow mines, that's the main reason terrans can just pump out a dozen of mines at a time and overwhelm the zerg. 75/25 is retarded for a caster, just look at the gas bank during mid game TvZ. Mines need to cost more gas than minerals, for example 25/75 while still being really strong against mutas.
Mines are supposed to help mech fight mutas. Mech play is already gas starved and we don't even know if mines will be at all effective against massed mutas after the nerf.
That's why I'd keep the stats but change the cost. Mech always had thors but the problem is that given the cost widow mines are just way too cheap so they get used with bio. So far I haven't really seen things like putting siege tanks on top of widow mines. At the same time you could buff the damage of siege tanks or buff the thor splash. In general these changes should make widow mines a bit less popular (while still very strong for 2 supply), siege tanks more popular and bring back thors in mech.
you say bio/mine has a leads to a huge gas bankand then say Blizz should increase the gas cost for mines while reducing mineral cost to stop bio players from making them. that doesn't really make much sense to me. if the bio player now has to spend even less minerals on the widow mines in exchange for having a smaller gas bank, that should be more than fine with him. on the other hand, 75 gas mines would severely cripple mech players that want to use mines.
i do agree it's a bit ridiculous that a mine costs the same as a roach though.
I get what you mean. It’s a question of army retention – right now you can throw away widow mines because they are cheap and making them weaker would only make people use them less while still not caring if they die. With higher gas cost you would be able to produce a lot less of them at a time, also medivacs would be more valuable. In mech compositions other units would have to be so useful that you don’t feel the need to overproduce mines. Throwing away hellions and hellbats should be more common while trying not to lose many tanks or mines. I’m not sure if making tanks cost less gas couldn’t cause more problems but higher damage should do the trick.
Maybe just have them techlab only and keep the current splash?
If people always say that the problem is bio + mine, why not just increase the mineral cost?
If the essence of good game design is creating "interesting choices", then the widow mine needs work - its inclusion in bio is automatic, due to its efficiency and idle factories, and its inclusion in mech has little more in the way opportunity cost because there are so many things it does extremely well. By the heuristic I've described, the mine is a design failure - something needs to make it even more specialized, and probably more expensive as well, otherwise you're not really making any decisions.
I get why David Kim changed it to be a non-suicide unit - it should be a powerful option in its own right - but I think the result is that it became too universally applicable. It helps Terran, which is good, but it doesn't shake up Terran gameplay options, which is bad. It's unfortunate that the Warhound wasn't more imaginatively conceived than as a factory-produced megaMarauder, because the mine is being asked to do a lot of work for HotS.
On September 26 2013 22:51 Zax19 wrote: What they need to do is fix the cost of widow mines, that's the main reason terrans can just pump out a dozen of mines at a time and overwhelm the zerg. 75/25 is retarded for a caster, just look at the gas bank during mid game TvZ. Mines need to cost more gas than minerals, for example 25/75 while still being really strong against mutas.
Mines are supposed to help mech fight mutas. Mech play is already gas starved and we don't even know if mines will be at all effective against massed mutas after the nerf.
That's why I'd keep the stats but change the cost. Mech always had thors but the problem is that given the cost widow mines are just way too cheap so they get used with bio. So far I haven't really seen things like putting siege tanks on top of widow mines. At the same time you could buff the damage of siege tanks or buff the thor splash. In general these changes should make widow mines a bit less popular (while still very strong for 2 supply), siege tanks more popular and bring back thors in mech.
you say bio/mine has a leads to a huge gas bankand then say Blizz should increase the gas cost for mines while reducing mineral cost to stop bio players from making them. that doesn't really make much sense to me. if the bio player now has to spend even less minerals on the widow mines in exchange for having a smaller gas bank, that should be more than fine with him. on the other hand, 75 gas mines would severely cripple mech players that want to use mines.
i do agree it's a bit ridiculous that a mine costs the same as a roach though.
I get what you mean. It’s a question of army retention – right now you can throw away widow mines because they are cheap and making them weaker would only make people use them less while still not caring if they die. With higher gas cost you would be able to produce a lot less of them at a time, also medivacs would be more valuable. In mech compositions other units would have to be so useful that you don’t feel the need to overproduce mines. Throwing away hellions and hellbats should be more common while trying not to lose many tanks or mines. I’m not sure if making tanks cost less gas couldn’t cause more problems but higher damage should do the trick.
Maybe just have them techlab only and keep the current splash?
If people always say that the problem is bio + mine, why not just increase the mineral cost?
Increasing the mineral cost doesn’t really fit the general game design – it’s a caster and a unit dealing splash damage and as such should cost more gas. Although in this case the problem is similar to the cost of ghosts – due to mules ghosts cost disproportionately more minerals. Idkfa said it pretty well, widow mine is in almost every aspect better than a siege tank and making it cost more minerals doesn't force you to chose between them.
For example the choice between high templars and colossus is a decent design, plus in late game you want to stack both types of splash instead of mass producing one or the other. The high gas cost is something that should force you to retain as many as you can while warping in units like zealots. Widow mines and siege tanks don’t work like that, you could build both at the same time and gas isn’t such a limiting factor. Personally I’d like to see mech use a combination of both while still dumping minerals into hellions/hellbats, just without throwing away dozens of mines.
Loved the latest European style meta as much as the one before it. It was nice to hear some very different viewpoints brought up with good discussion based on each.
Great Protoss episode. I had no idea Socke was so hilarious! He stole the show for me, but of course BabyKnight and HasuObs were handsome as always. Quite a bit of good analysis. I found it interesting that for 4 mostly defensive/turtley (mostly? completely?) oriented Protoss on the show including Artosis, that they often have very differing opinions on things such as phoenix vs. phoenix and if swarmhost turtle style is going to be a serious problem or not.
Artosis, you have got to get Elfi on the show! He's got such a different P approach to the game seem and is doing well lately, I bet there would be some fun discussions. But either way, I could listen to 3 more shows with the guys you just had on and enjoy every moment.
EPT
