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the forcefield and warpin will be the doom of this game....it was clear from the beginning but blizzard doesnt want to change things liek that~~
just think about mapmaking and how it destroyed it...so many things i cant do just because of those two abilities
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On April 15 2013 07:03 IcedBacon wrote:
Warpgate is my biggest problem with Protoss. It's forgiving for bad macro and also allows for so much of the cheesy shit that P can do. Floating 2k mins? Just throw down 6 more gateways and warp in a big round.
but that's the beauty of warpgate, you're allowed to not spend money on units and instead spend it on tech and upgrades etc..
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Excellent write up, however, it will just fall on deaf ears. I remember last time people tried to complain about warpgate and sentries through well written posts. Blizzard responded with this quote
.. We've been getting a lot of feedback from lower-level Protoss ....
Source http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/5683118282
OP, you're just another low level player, sorry.
The gimmicky and cheesy design is here to stay. Sorry folks 
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.Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 02:07 Filter wrote:
I was going to write my own thread on the subject of Protoss, but I feel this thread is so well presented I may as well just add to the discussion here.
Protoss as a race is best embodied by MC. MC is both the most consistent and the least consistent protoss player around. He will often ace his group with amazing builds and timings and then a few weeks later lose to players that he is in theory much, much better than and fall out of a group or tourney extremely early. This also applies to basically every matchup for Protoss and the fact that they have three totally different styles that require different skillsets for each one. It's not uncommon for the average Protoss player to have two good matchups and one awful one on ladder for example, much more so than the other two races.
It's important to note that I don't want to discuss balance, but I do feel like certain metagame shifts can be extremely good for Protoss. I dont think anything is particularly imbalanced, but I do feel that the metagame heavily favours Protoss in TvP right now and at the same time it heavily favours Zerg in ZvP. This is a stark contrast to two or three weeks ago when the complete opposite was true. There are situations in lategame TvP where the Protoss player is totally helpless as well, at the mercy of his opponents micro.
Lets first examine the current state of PvT. I'm by heart a Terran player, however my PvT is leaps and bounds better than my TvP. The reason for this was in order to tackle my weak TvP I wanted to learn the Protoss openers and try to find the weak points so that I could exploit them. The problem I found though is many of the weakpoints are simply build order losses, with basically nothing the Protoss player can do to stop the loss. Things like hellion drops and really early (pre msc) all ins are great for Terran, but the Protoss player can't stop them. He basically needs to just accept those losses and play to the meta where most Terrans dont do those types of builds.
The list of dangerous Protoss openers against Terran right now is HUGE. 1base proxy oracles, blink all ins, 1base immortal busts are all very good and look very similar in terms of initial setups, so Terran needs to scout very, very effectively to spot the all in. The second part is that those all ins all require totally different setups for defense from the Terran, guess wrong and you lose. Moving onto two base play Protoss can open with all sorts of DT drops modified off Tails initial build (Which is genius). They can open two base Colossus, they can fake Colossus and go into templar and even then they could just open straight up with templar. Hell even a delayed oracle opener can be really really good. The variations in terms of openers Protoss against Terran that are all very good and very viable is beyond extreme, and the vast majority of them are also extremely safe and very difficult to punish.
The single thing that ties all these openers together is the mothership core. Typically in the past Terran would try to hit a small 1-2 minute window where the Protoss was vulnerable in order to do damage, or even win the game. Many of the builds like 2 base Colossus and double forge HT openers had a small window for the Terran to try and exploit. The Terran still needed to have excellent scouting and play extremely well to hit that timing, and at the same time the Protoss had various tools available to delay and stall out until they got the tech they needed to hold. This led to some very exciting games that would settle down after the window went away. Now though the MSC basically removes that window by forcing the Terran to back off for 1-2 minutes at a time (depending on msc energy) while at the same time making drops much much more risky. The crazy amount of greed Protoss can get away with, and the amount of viable openers is very stressful for your average Terran player right now.
The Terran side of things is basically the heavy one base openers like Hellion drops and bunker rushes. If you want to play a more standard game though you're in a ton of trouble. The widow mine drops have been mostly figured out, it's not really a fully viable opener anymore (especially with tails DT drops out there). This leaves you with a standard +1 4 medivac timing, but with a MSC that just gets shut down extremely hard. You see the problem here? Terran players have very few options for aggressive builds and rely heavily on taking advantage of Protoss mistakes, while at the same time a bad read from the Terran results in a near instant loss. This problem is even more compounded by how strong the lategame Protoss army is even without micro is extremely scary.
I dont really want to go into too much detail with PvZ and PvP, but I'll touch on it a bit. PvZ right now is FFE into immortal all in or pray you can hold a third base. Zerg has adapted to the skytoss strats by using a ling/hydra timing to really nullify that idea very, very early on and deny the Protoss a third base. PvP is basically stargate or bust now and the game very closely resembles the boring snoozefest that is ZvZ and muta vs. muta battles.
The real Problem with Protoss? The obvious ones are warpgate, FF and Colossus. Colossus being easily the worst unit in the game. Not only does it cause huge win/loss states for races that react properly/or incorrectly to their presence on the field they totally screw up the balance of air units in the game. Anti air units have to be balanced around being good anti air units AND being good anti Colossus units without being too powerful in one aspect or another. The best example are Void Rays, which are great against Colossus but they also crush Corrupters and Vikings. Capital Ships stand no chance in the current metagame because of just how insanely good anti has to be to deal with Colossus for another example.
The other things people don't seem to talk about are just how extremely black and white all the Protoss units counters/units they counter situations are. This leads to micro and control either needing to be Korean level good, or just not very impactful (most late game Protoss matchups don't require much control, although there are some situations like HT vs. vipers etc). This also leads to unit mixtures needing to be just about perfect from whoever the Protoss is fighting. Terran needs the right mix of Vikings/Ghosts/Marines/Marauders to combat the lategame toss army properly, any mistake here and Terran makes his job much, much more difficult. If the Terran gets it right though the Protoss player loses complete control of the fight and the game.
Chargelots wreck marauders, in large numbers equal supply marauders will kill themselves from stim and take nearly the whole map to either win the fight or lose it. In most cases though you dont have an entire map to kite back and the Zealots win easily. Chargelots at the same time gets wrecked by marines or hellbats, so if your splash gets taken out/disabled and you can't cut his marine numbers down you're going to lose the game badly.
Stalkers are pretty weak overall, but they're great vs. roaches with good control. Put them up against well upgrade Marines, Marauders or hydra's though and they melt into a pile of shattered Protoss dreams.
Then you have units like Immortals who are capable of racking up 30+ kills on units like roaches/marauders/stalkers if they're well protected. They are so strong and so very underrated. At the same time though rely on them too heavily and you expose yourself to large numbers of very cheap light units like chargelots/marines/zerglings.
Archons are another unit that is either game endingly good or causing you a near instant loss. Archons can clean up marauders/a few marines like nobodies business. Have 5 archons left against 18 injured marauders and 4 marines with 4-5medivacs? no problem for the archons. Get them emped at the start of the fight though and watch your 1500 gas go right up in smoke.
Lets wrap this up now. Basically everything about Protoss is complete feast or famine. They have almost nothing that provides stability to their matchups and they lean so heavily on the metagame it's not even funny. The worst part about Protoss though is that your victory depends almost entirely on what your opponent does and not what you yourself do. This needs to change, and soon.
I'm a Protoss player and I wholeheartedly agree with this. Although I haven't suffered too much in PvZ on KR as I play a more laid back Airtoss + cannon style or a high paced Twilight DT Blink all in.
Protoss is way too metagame orientated and definitely too black and white in terms of unit interactions
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On April 15 2013 19:31 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 18:02 Big J wrote:On April 15 2013 17:35 Zarahtra wrote:On April 15 2013 17:00 sUgArMaNiAc wrote:On April 15 2013 07:03 IcedBacon wrote:
Warpgate is my biggest problem with Protoss. It's forgiving for bad macro and also allows for so much of the cheesy shit that P can do. Floating 2k mins? Just throw down 6 more gateways and warp in a big round. Terran can do this to with barracks though... only difference is protoss can choose where to warp in. Well the big thing about warp gates is they need to be balanced in a way that a reinforcement of upto 40 warp gate supply doesn't win the protoss the game outright, that is to say, they force gateway units to suck(or in the case of the HT, not come out truly combat ready). It has just forced Blizzard's hand to nerf the protoss units from being the strong tough warrior to being gimmicky glasscannons that desperately need to hit a timing before x upgrade of the opponent is done. Which patches apart from khaydarian amulet removal + zealot buff are you referring to? The WoL patch. As warp gate was in WoL from the start, gateway units sucked pretty much from the start and the real impact units were their tech units, which is just a sad design which has left protoss so gimmicky. From TvP POV, if you snipe/Emp the templars and kill the colossi the rest of the protoss army doesn't stand a chance. I'll concede that blink stalkers do break that chain in PvZ if you mass them enough, but that requires a critical mass/deathball, which isn't exactly the strength I wish protoss had more of. The protoss army is imo just to weak without their power units, which comes both from the remax capability provided in lategame, but moreso I'd say from being able to be 1 round of production ahead with their very many different allins in the early game.
Which connection do those things need to have? Gateway units have been slightly buffed BW-->SC2 (blink, dragoon range upgrade not needed, nearly same stats, added sentries). They follow the exact same design rules all other Starcraft units go: the stronger the unit, the less costefficent. Protoss smallest units are zealots, stalkers which are naturally less costefficient than the weaker marine, zergling, roach/BW hydralisk.
The only thing that changed is that the pathing/selection/gameplay changed, and now Protoss doesn't have the advantage of "easy control" anymore where 12 Protoss T1 units would be capable of combating 24 Zerg/Terran T1 units due to better control. (and even that wasn't quite true in BW, as marines&medics just like hydra/ling do counter gateway units and Protoss was just as dependend as in SC2 to go reaver&templar against those)
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On April 15 2013 21:37 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 19:31 Zarahtra wrote:On April 15 2013 18:02 Big J wrote:On April 15 2013 17:35 Zarahtra wrote:On April 15 2013 17:00 sUgArMaNiAc wrote:On April 15 2013 07:03 IcedBacon wrote:
Warpgate is my biggest problem with Protoss. It's forgiving for bad macro and also allows for so much of the cheesy shit that P can do. Floating 2k mins? Just throw down 6 more gateways and warp in a big round. Terran can do this to with barracks though... only difference is protoss can choose where to warp in. Well the big thing about warp gates is they need to be balanced in a way that a reinforcement of upto 40 warp gate supply doesn't win the protoss the game outright, that is to say, they force gateway units to suck(or in the case of the HT, not come out truly combat ready). It has just forced Blizzard's hand to nerf the protoss units from being the strong tough warrior to being gimmicky glasscannons that desperately need to hit a timing before x upgrade of the opponent is done. Which patches apart from khaydarian amulet removal + zealot buff are you referring to? The WoL patch. As warp gate was in WoL from the start, gateway units sucked pretty much from the start and the real impact units were their tech units, which is just a sad design which has left protoss so gimmicky. From TvP POV, if you snipe/Emp the templars and kill the colossi the rest of the protoss army doesn't stand a chance. I'll concede that blink stalkers do break that chain in PvZ if you mass them enough, but that requires a critical mass/deathball, which isn't exactly the strength I wish protoss had more of. The protoss army is imo just to weak without their power units, which comes both from the remax capability provided in lategame, but moreso I'd say from being able to be 1 round of production ahead with their very many different allins in the early game. Which connection do those things need to have? Gateway units have been slightly buffed BW-->SC2 (blink, dragoon range upgrade not needed, nearly same stats, added sentries). They follow the exact same design rules all other Starcraft units go: the stronger the unit, the less costefficent. Protoss smallest units are zealots, stalkers which are naturally less costefficient than the weaker marine, zergling, roach/BW hydralisk. The only thing that changed is that the pathing/selection/gameplay changed, and now Protoss doesn't have the advantage of "easy control" anymore where 12 Protoss T1 units would be capable of combating 24 Zerg/Terran T1 units due to better control. (and even that wasn't quite true in BW, as marines&medics just like hydra/ling do counter gateway units and Protoss was just as dependend as in SC2 to go reaver&templar against those)
You cant compare bw>sc2, you have to see the whole package.
The protoss units are worse in power compared to zerg,terran in sc2 than in broodwar
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On April 15 2013 22:24 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 21:37 Big J wrote:On April 15 2013 19:31 Zarahtra wrote:On April 15 2013 18:02 Big J wrote:On April 15 2013 17:35 Zarahtra wrote:On April 15 2013 17:00 sUgArMaNiAc wrote:On April 15 2013 07:03 IcedBacon wrote:
Warpgate is my biggest problem with Protoss. It's forgiving for bad macro and also allows for so much of the cheesy shit that P can do. Floating 2k mins? Just throw down 6 more gateways and warp in a big round. Terran can do this to with barracks though... only difference is protoss can choose where to warp in. Well the big thing about warp gates is they need to be balanced in a way that a reinforcement of upto 40 warp gate supply doesn't win the protoss the game outright, that is to say, they force gateway units to suck(or in the case of the HT, not come out truly combat ready). It has just forced Blizzard's hand to nerf the protoss units from being the strong tough warrior to being gimmicky glasscannons that desperately need to hit a timing before x upgrade of the opponent is done. Which patches apart from khaydarian amulet removal + zealot buff are you referring to? The WoL patch. As warp gate was in WoL from the start, gateway units sucked pretty much from the start and the real impact units were their tech units, which is just a sad design which has left protoss so gimmicky. From TvP POV, if you snipe/Emp the templars and kill the colossi the rest of the protoss army doesn't stand a chance. I'll concede that blink stalkers do break that chain in PvZ if you mass them enough, but that requires a critical mass/deathball, which isn't exactly the strength I wish protoss had more of. The protoss army is imo just to weak without their power units, which comes both from the remax capability provided in lategame, but moreso I'd say from being able to be 1 round of production ahead with their very many different allins in the early game. Which connection do those things need to have? Gateway units have been slightly buffed BW-->SC2 (blink, dragoon range upgrade not needed, nearly same stats, added sentries). They follow the exact same design rules all other Starcraft units go: the stronger the unit, the less costefficent. Protoss smallest units are zealots, stalkers which are naturally less costefficient than the weaker marine, zergling, roach/BW hydralisk. The only thing that changed is that the pathing/selection/gameplay changed, and now Protoss doesn't have the advantage of "easy control" anymore where 12 Protoss T1 units would be capable of combating 24 Zerg/Terran T1 units due to better control. (and even that wasn't quite true in BW, as marines&medics just like hydra/ling do counter gateway units and Protoss was just as dependend as in SC2 to go reaver&templar against those) You cant compare bw>sc2, you have to see the whole package. The protoss units are worse in power compared to zerg,terran in sc2 than in broodwar
Basic gateway units are worse than bio, because that's the whole point of making bio viable in SC2. (would be quite a fail if zealot/stalker could hold it's own against MMM AND Protoss would get all the high tech tech options on the same upgrade, hell, templar/archon even on the same production path)
And Protoss was already superdependend on all forms of tech units in BW against Zerg, nothing has changed on that front.
Gateway units are shit with good pathing and unlimited selection. By design.
Non of that has anything to do with Warpgate whatsoever.
Seriously guys... Not every unit in the game can be as powerful as the marine. All that whining about Z/P bad low tier units... yes, one races T1 units will always be better than anothers, just by how the techpaths work. That doesn't mean that larva, warpgate, sentries, infestors caused "the units to suck". Hell, if you ask me the only thing that makes other units suck in this game is the marine, which has caused actual nerfs on other units. Not just imaginary that people come up with as theory, after year long figuering which units dominate which other. (blizzard surely did not have the time to figure out the SC2 2013 gameplay in their planning stages 2008,2009)
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On April 15 2013 22:52 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 22:24 Foxxan wrote:On April 15 2013 21:37 Big J wrote:On April 15 2013 19:31 Zarahtra wrote:On April 15 2013 18:02 Big J wrote:On April 15 2013 17:35 Zarahtra wrote:On April 15 2013 17:00 sUgArMaNiAc wrote:On April 15 2013 07:03 IcedBacon wrote:
Warpgate is my biggest problem with Protoss. It's forgiving for bad macro and also allows for so much of the cheesy shit that P can do. Floating 2k mins? Just throw down 6 more gateways and warp in a big round. Terran can do this to with barracks though... only difference is protoss can choose where to warp in. Well the big thing about warp gates is they need to be balanced in a way that a reinforcement of upto 40 warp gate supply doesn't win the protoss the game outright, that is to say, they force gateway units to suck(or in the case of the HT, not come out truly combat ready). It has just forced Blizzard's hand to nerf the protoss units from being the strong tough warrior to being gimmicky glasscannons that desperately need to hit a timing before x upgrade of the opponent is done. Which patches apart from khaydarian amulet removal + zealot buff are you referring to? The WoL patch. As warp gate was in WoL from the start, gateway units sucked pretty much from the start and the real impact units were their tech units, which is just a sad design which has left protoss so gimmicky. From TvP POV, if you snipe/Emp the templars and kill the colossi the rest of the protoss army doesn't stand a chance. I'll concede that blink stalkers do break that chain in PvZ if you mass them enough, but that requires a critical mass/deathball, which isn't exactly the strength I wish protoss had more of. The protoss army is imo just to weak without their power units, which comes both from the remax capability provided in lategame, but moreso I'd say from being able to be 1 round of production ahead with their very many different allins in the early game. Which connection do those things need to have? Gateway units have been slightly buffed BW-->SC2 (blink, dragoon range upgrade not needed, nearly same stats, added sentries). They follow the exact same design rules all other Starcraft units go: the stronger the unit, the less costefficent. Protoss smallest units are zealots, stalkers which are naturally less costefficient than the weaker marine, zergling, roach/BW hydralisk. The only thing that changed is that the pathing/selection/gameplay changed, and now Protoss doesn't have the advantage of "easy control" anymore where 12 Protoss T1 units would be capable of combating 24 Zerg/Terran T1 units due to better control. (and even that wasn't quite true in BW, as marines&medics just like hydra/ling do counter gateway units and Protoss was just as dependend as in SC2 to go reaver&templar against those) You cant compare bw>sc2, you have to see the whole package. The protoss units are worse in power compared to zerg,terran in sc2 than in broodwar Basic gateway units are worse than bio, because that's the whole point of making bio viable in SC2. (would be quite a fail if zealot/stalker could hold it's own against MMM AND Protoss would get all the high tech tech options on the same upgrade, hell, templar/archon even on the same production path) And Protoss was already superdependend on all forms of tech units in BW against Zerg, nothing has changed on that front. Gateway units are shit with good pathing and unlimited selection. By design. Non of that has anything to do with Warpgate whatsoever. Seriously guys... Not every unit in the game can be as powerful as the marine. All that whining about Z/P bad low tier units... yes, one races T1 units will always be better than anothers, just by how the techpaths work. That doesn't mean that larva, warpgate, sentries, infestors caused "the units to suck". Hell, if you ask me the only thing that makes other units suck in this game is the marine, which has caused actual nerfs on other units. Not just imaginary that people come up with as theory, after year long figuering which units dominate which other. (blizzard surely did not have the time to figure out the SC2 2013 gameplay in their planning stages 2008,2009)
seriously dude, seriously....
why do you write this to me? You take me as a fool dont you, well stop
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On April 15 2013 22:52 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 22:24 Foxxan wrote:On April 15 2013 21:37 Big J wrote:On April 15 2013 19:31 Zarahtra wrote:On April 15 2013 18:02 Big J wrote:On April 15 2013 17:35 Zarahtra wrote:On April 15 2013 17:00 sUgArMaNiAc wrote:On April 15 2013 07:03 IcedBacon wrote:
Warpgate is my biggest problem with Protoss. It's forgiving for bad macro and also allows for so much of the cheesy shit that P can do. Floating 2k mins? Just throw down 6 more gateways and warp in a big round. Terran can do this to with barracks though... only difference is protoss can choose where to warp in. Well the big thing about warp gates is they need to be balanced in a way that a reinforcement of upto 40 warp gate supply doesn't win the protoss the game outright, that is to say, they force gateway units to suck(or in the case of the HT, not come out truly combat ready). It has just forced Blizzard's hand to nerf the protoss units from being the strong tough warrior to being gimmicky glasscannons that desperately need to hit a timing before x upgrade of the opponent is done. Which patches apart from khaydarian amulet removal + zealot buff are you referring to? The WoL patch. As warp gate was in WoL from the start, gateway units sucked pretty much from the start and the real impact units were their tech units, which is just a sad design which has left protoss so gimmicky. From TvP POV, if you snipe/Emp the templars and kill the colossi the rest of the protoss army doesn't stand a chance. I'll concede that blink stalkers do break that chain in PvZ if you mass them enough, but that requires a critical mass/deathball, which isn't exactly the strength I wish protoss had more of. The protoss army is imo just to weak without their power units, which comes both from the remax capability provided in lategame, but moreso I'd say from being able to be 1 round of production ahead with their very many different allins in the early game. Which connection do those things need to have? Gateway units have been slightly buffed BW-->SC2 (blink, dragoon range upgrade not needed, nearly same stats, added sentries). They follow the exact same design rules all other Starcraft units go: the stronger the unit, the less costefficent. Protoss smallest units are zealots, stalkers which are naturally less costefficient than the weaker marine, zergling, roach/BW hydralisk. The only thing that changed is that the pathing/selection/gameplay changed, and now Protoss doesn't have the advantage of "easy control" anymore where 12 Protoss T1 units would be capable of combating 24 Zerg/Terran T1 units due to better control. (and even that wasn't quite true in BW, as marines&medics just like hydra/ling do counter gateway units and Protoss was just as dependend as in SC2 to go reaver&templar against those) You cant compare bw>sc2, you have to see the whole package. The protoss units are worse in power compared to zerg,terran in sc2 than in broodwar Basic gateway units are worse than bio, because that's the whole point of making bio viable in SC2. (would be quite a fail if zealot/stalker could hold it's own against MMM AND Protoss would get all the high tech tech options on the same upgrade, hell, templar/archon even on the same production path) And Protoss was already superdependend on all forms of tech units in BW against Zerg, nothing has changed on that front. Gateway units are shit with good pathing and unlimited selection. By design. Non of that has anything to do with Warpgate whatsoever. Seriously guys... Not every unit in the game can be as powerful as the marine. All that whining about Z/P bad low tier units... yes, one races T1 units will always be better than anothers, just by how the techpaths work. That doesn't mean that larva, warpgate, sentries, infestors caused "the units to suck". Hell, if you ask me the only thing that makes other units suck in this game is the marine, which has caused actual nerfs on other units. Not just imaginary that people come up with as theory, after year long figuering which units dominate which other. (blizzard surely did not have the time to figure out the SC2 2013 gameplay in their planning stages 2008,2009)
The point is that they are too weak compared to most notably bio, and their tech units are to strong compared to most notably all of the tech units of terran. The core units of protoss suck in comparison to the core units of terran. There will always be a best unit, or in the least a best unit in certain situation, but if we are comparing game design of TvP in BW and SC2, neither race had a power unit such as the ht/colossi are in SC2. The ht was strong in BW, but a single one didn't pack as much punch as in SC2(for multiple reasons). My core point is that I think TvP especially would be more rewarding if the say 90/140 supply of units in the protoss army were actually the dangerous part of the army and the tech units were the support units rather than the other way around.
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I love how all people just look at the protoss players and forget the implications for other races.
Maybe I play Terran exactly because I enjoy that my T1 is so strong and the game would be a lot less enjoyable if I had to incooperate Thors into my army.
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Well, if it helps Company of Heroes 2 beta is open. Maybe we'll get lucky and the it'll be able to compete enough that Blizz will listen to its customers here...
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On April 15 2013 05:16 TheIceMan86 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 04:57 Scootaloo wrote:On April 15 2013 04:38 TheIceMan86 wrote:
I'm not offended at all bro.
My protoss is garbage compared to my Terran, I said things that were based off my current skill level which is masters. You're absolutely right about 4gate working against people being greedy in PvP. The point I was making is that on the ladder people tend to play the style they are most comfortable with. . . and since Protoss has many 1 base options and strong 2 base timings people will tend to use those the most leaving the rest of their game under developed. It doesn't mean that the race is lacking because there are some pretty sick Protoss players out there in the GSL, pro-league etc.
Yeah, so your point is that in your personal experience in masters Protoss is pretty strong, and that there are a couple good Protoss in GSL, who, despite them being so good as you say are far less consistent and can't manage to get the wins the zerg and terran are getting. Did you actually read the OP? Look at the winrates? Maybe the protoss players in the GSL are losing to players that are just better than them at the game? Did you ever consider that? At the highest level victories are won by skill, and sometimes by luck, it doesn't matter what race the player is using because if it did, the game wouldn't be taken seriously. You know what I'm not gonna argue about something I dont really care about. I cannot site specific examples or link to vods or pick apart winrates. I made my point, you missed it, I'm done here.
Oh wow, so your argument is that protoss is doing badly because all protoss players suck.
It will be a good day for TL when we're released from ignorant kids like you.
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Protoss is fine. I say this as a high masters Protoss player. I have absolutely no trouble playing solid macro styles in every matchup. We even have free Hallucinate now to solve old scouting problems in PvZ. I honestly don't understand what the complaints are about. 1 Gate FEing or reactive DT drop works fine against Terran. WoL style FFEs and Stargate openers work fine against Zerg. The only matchup that kinda sucks is PvP because it's so SG oriented at the moment, but even that has a variety of openers.
This thread just reeks of whine to me. I've never felt that I didn't deserve a loss. If I were getting build order losses, that means my build is garbage, not that the race is broken.
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On April 15 2013 21:37 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 19:31 Zarahtra wrote:On April 15 2013 18:02 Big J wrote:On April 15 2013 17:35 Zarahtra wrote:On April 15 2013 17:00 sUgArMaNiAc wrote:On April 15 2013 07:03 IcedBacon wrote:
Warpgate is my biggest problem with Protoss. It's forgiving for bad macro and also allows for so much of the cheesy shit that P can do. Floating 2k mins? Just throw down 6 more gateways and warp in a big round. Terran can do this to with barracks though... only difference is protoss can choose where to warp in. Well the big thing about warp gates is they need to be balanced in a way that a reinforcement of upto 40 warp gate supply doesn't win the protoss the game outright, that is to say, they force gateway units to suck(or in the case of the HT, not come out truly combat ready). It has just forced Blizzard's hand to nerf the protoss units from being the strong tough warrior to being gimmicky glasscannons that desperately need to hit a timing before x upgrade of the opponent is done. Which patches apart from khaydarian amulet removal + zealot buff are you referring to? The WoL patch. As warp gate was in WoL from the start, gateway units sucked pretty much from the start and the real impact units were their tech units, which is just a sad design which has left protoss so gimmicky. From TvP POV, if you snipe/Emp the templars and kill the colossi the rest of the protoss army doesn't stand a chance. I'll concede that blink stalkers do break that chain in PvZ if you mass them enough, but that requires a critical mass/deathball, which isn't exactly the strength I wish protoss had more of. The protoss army is imo just to weak without their power units, which comes both from the remax capability provided in lategame, but moreso I'd say from being able to be 1 round of production ahead with their very many different allins in the early game. Which connection do those things need to have? Gateway units have been slightly buffed BW-->SC2 (blink, dragoon range upgrade not needed, nearly same stats, added sentries). They follow the exact same design rules all other Starcraft units go: the stronger the unit, the less costefficent. Protoss smallest units are zealots, stalkers which are naturally less costefficient than the weaker marine, zergling, roach/BW hydralisk. The only thing that changed is that the pathing/selection/gameplay changed, and now Protoss doesn't have the advantage of "easy control" anymore where 12 Protoss T1 units would be capable of combating 24 Zerg/Terran T1 units due to better control. (and even that wasn't quite true in BW, as marines&medics just like hydra/ling do counter gateway units and Protoss was just as dependend as in SC2 to go reaver&templar against those)
But there was no marauder in bw right?
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On April 16 2013 02:48 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 22:52 Big J wrote:On April 15 2013 22:24 Foxxan wrote:On April 15 2013 21:37 Big J wrote:On April 15 2013 19:31 Zarahtra wrote:On April 15 2013 18:02 Big J wrote:On April 15 2013 17:35 Zarahtra wrote:On April 15 2013 17:00 sUgArMaNiAc wrote:On April 15 2013 07:03 IcedBacon wrote:
Warpgate is my biggest problem with Protoss. It's forgiving for bad macro and also allows for so much of the cheesy shit that P can do. Floating 2k mins? Just throw down 6 more gateways and warp in a big round. Terran can do this to with barracks though... only difference is protoss can choose where to warp in. Well the big thing about warp gates is they need to be balanced in a way that a reinforcement of upto 40 warp gate supply doesn't win the protoss the game outright, that is to say, they force gateway units to suck(or in the case of the HT, not come out truly combat ready). It has just forced Blizzard's hand to nerf the protoss units from being the strong tough warrior to being gimmicky glasscannons that desperately need to hit a timing before x upgrade of the opponent is done. Which patches apart from khaydarian amulet removal + zealot buff are you referring to? The WoL patch. As warp gate was in WoL from the start, gateway units sucked pretty much from the start and the real impact units were their tech units, which is just a sad design which has left protoss so gimmicky. From TvP POV, if you snipe/Emp the templars and kill the colossi the rest of the protoss army doesn't stand a chance. I'll concede that blink stalkers do break that chain in PvZ if you mass them enough, but that requires a critical mass/deathball, which isn't exactly the strength I wish protoss had more of. The protoss army is imo just to weak without their power units, which comes both from the remax capability provided in lategame, but moreso I'd say from being able to be 1 round of production ahead with their very many different allins in the early game. Which connection do those things need to have? Gateway units have been slightly buffed BW-->SC2 (blink, dragoon range upgrade not needed, nearly same stats, added sentries). They follow the exact same design rules all other Starcraft units go: the stronger the unit, the less costefficent. Protoss smallest units are zealots, stalkers which are naturally less costefficient than the weaker marine, zergling, roach/BW hydralisk. The only thing that changed is that the pathing/selection/gameplay changed, and now Protoss doesn't have the advantage of "easy control" anymore where 12 Protoss T1 units would be capable of combating 24 Zerg/Terran T1 units due to better control. (and even that wasn't quite true in BW, as marines&medics just like hydra/ling do counter gateway units and Protoss was just as dependend as in SC2 to go reaver&templar against those) You cant compare bw>sc2, you have to see the whole package. The protoss units are worse in power compared to zerg,terran in sc2 than in broodwar Basic gateway units are worse than bio, because that's the whole point of making bio viable in SC2. (would be quite a fail if zealot/stalker could hold it's own against MMM AND Protoss would get all the high tech tech options on the same upgrade, hell, templar/archon even on the same production path) And Protoss was already superdependend on all forms of tech units in BW against Zerg, nothing has changed on that front. Gateway units are shit with good pathing and unlimited selection. By design. Non of that has anything to do with Warpgate whatsoever. Seriously guys... Not every unit in the game can be as powerful as the marine. All that whining about Z/P bad low tier units... yes, one races T1 units will always be better than anothers, just by how the techpaths work. That doesn't mean that larva, warpgate, sentries, infestors caused "the units to suck". Hell, if you ask me the only thing that makes other units suck in this game is the marine, which has caused actual nerfs on other units. Not just imaginary that people come up with as theory, after year long figuering which units dominate which other. (blizzard surely did not have the time to figure out the SC2 2013 gameplay in their planning stages 2008,2009) The point is that they are too weak compared to most notably bio, and their tech units are to strong compared to most notably all of the tech units of terran. The core units of protoss suck in comparison to the core units of terran. There will always be a best unit, or in the least a best unit in certain situation, but if we are comparing game design of TvP in BW and SC2, neither race had a power unit such as the ht/colossi are in SC2. The ht was strong in BW, but a single one didn't pack as much punch as in SC2(for multiple reasons). My core point is that I think TvP especially would be more rewarding if the say 90/140 supply of units in the protoss army were actually the dangerous part of the army and the tech units were the support units rather than the other way around.
It's been the topic of various discussions that the reaver was way more powerful than the Colossus. And HTs weren't shabby either with their 112 damage storms.
Even more, bio or biomech wasn't even viable to begin with against those units, even though MarineMedic beats Dragoon and Zealot in Broodwar.
The reality has nothing to do with warpgate or sentry based gateway nerfs. Blizzard made bio viable by tuning down Protoss splash and tuning up Terran with Marauder&Medivac instead of usless Firebats and damage/square reducing medics (not to mention the implicit drop play you get from medivacs, "for free" when you just go for combat healing).
Of course you may say that they have gone overboard with Terran bio and not far enough with Protoss splash.
But in my opinion it will always come down less to how good/bad warpgate units are, but rather that Protoss as a whole concept is basically just "moooooooooooooaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrr beef". Which makes Protoss units trade badly, as they don't have the damage output to achieve anything when outnumbered. (unlike marines, zerglings, banelings, mines, tanks... which will often take a few enemies with them to the grave and therefore allow for "let's try to attack there, it can't be too bad" kind of gameplay). (zealots, oracles and templar being the exceptions)
On April 16 2013 04:45 Silencioseu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 21:37 Big J wrote:On April 15 2013 19:31 Zarahtra wrote:On April 15 2013 18:02 Big J wrote:On April 15 2013 17:35 Zarahtra wrote:On April 15 2013 17:00 sUgArMaNiAc wrote:On April 15 2013 07:03 IcedBacon wrote:
Warpgate is my biggest problem with Protoss. It's forgiving for bad macro and also allows for so much of the cheesy shit that P can do. Floating 2k mins? Just throw down 6 more gateways and warp in a big round. Terran can do this to with barracks though... only difference is protoss can choose where to warp in. Well the big thing about warp gates is they need to be balanced in a way that a reinforcement of upto 40 warp gate supply doesn't win the protoss the game outright, that is to say, they force gateway units to suck(or in the case of the HT, not come out truly combat ready). It has just forced Blizzard's hand to nerf the protoss units from being the strong tough warrior to being gimmicky glasscannons that desperately need to hit a timing before x upgrade of the opponent is done. Which patches apart from khaydarian amulet removal + zealot buff are you referring to? The WoL patch. As warp gate was in WoL from the start, gateway units sucked pretty much from the start and the real impact units were their tech units, which is just a sad design which has left protoss so gimmicky. From TvP POV, if you snipe/Emp the templars and kill the colossi the rest of the protoss army doesn't stand a chance. I'll concede that blink stalkers do break that chain in PvZ if you mass them enough, but that requires a critical mass/deathball, which isn't exactly the strength I wish protoss had more of. The protoss army is imo just to weak without their power units, which comes both from the remax capability provided in lategame, but moreso I'd say from being able to be 1 round of production ahead with their very many different allins in the early game. Which connection do those things need to have? Gateway units have been slightly buffed BW-->SC2 (blink, dragoon range upgrade not needed, nearly same stats, added sentries). They follow the exact same design rules all other Starcraft units go: the stronger the unit, the less costefficent. Protoss smallest units are zealots, stalkers which are naturally less costefficient than the weaker marine, zergling, roach/BW hydralisk. The only thing that changed is that the pathing/selection/gameplay changed, and now Protoss doesn't have the advantage of "easy control" anymore where 12 Protoss T1 units would be capable of combating 24 Zerg/Terran T1 units due to better control. (and even that wasn't quite true in BW, as marines&medics just like hydra/ling do counter gateway units and Protoss was just as dependend as in SC2 to go reaver&templar against those) But there was no marauder in bw right?
right. That doesn't mean that "gateway units have been nerfed because of warpgate". It means that Terran got the marauder. Not some arbitrary:
you see guys, after years of Starcraft 2 we know that bio beats gateway builds. Obviously that stuff was nerfed long before we figured this out due to sentries and warpgates
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On April 15 2013 19:31 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 18:02 Big J wrote:On April 15 2013 17:35 Zarahtra wrote:On April 15 2013 17:00 sUgArMaNiAc wrote:On April 15 2013 07:03 IcedBacon wrote:
Warpgate is my biggest problem with Protoss. It's forgiving for bad macro and also allows for so much of the cheesy shit that P can do. Floating 2k mins? Just throw down 6 more gateways and warp in a big round. Terran can do this to with barracks though... only difference is protoss can choose where to warp in. Well the big thing about warp gates is they need to be balanced in a way that a reinforcement of upto 40 warp gate supply doesn't win the protoss the game outright, that is to say, they force gateway units to suck(or in the case of the HT, not come out truly combat ready). It has just forced Blizzard's hand to nerf the protoss units from being the strong tough warrior to being gimmicky glasscannons that desperately need to hit a timing before x upgrade of the opponent is done. Which patches apart from khaydarian amulet removal + zealot buff are you referring to? The WoL patch. As warp gate was in WoL from the start, gateway units sucked pretty much from the start and the real impact units were their tech units, which is just a sad design which has left protoss so gimmicky. From TvP POV, if you snipe/Emp the templars and kill the colossi the rest of the protoss army doesn't stand a chance. I'll concede that blink stalkers do break that chain in PvZ if you mass them enough, but that requires a critical mass/deathball, which isn't exactly the strength I wish protoss had more of. The protoss army is imo just to weak without their power units, which comes both from the remax capability provided in lategame, but moreso I'd say from being able to be 1 round of production ahead with their very many different allins in the early game.
**First Post :D** I'm by no means an expert at this game, but I play Protoss and have honestly been thinking about switching. I find that the Protoss are just not AS flexible. Think of the match ups. Against Zerg OR Terran, Protoss favor teching up to either Colossus, HTs with Storm, Archons, or Void Rays. All high tech units, and very very good in my opinion. Pretty much necessary in all those match ups. What does that leave Protoss? Units that allow you to tech up, Sentries/MSC, units that allow you to hurt the opponents economy, Oracles/Phoenix/DTs, hopefully putting you ahead while you get the death ball rolling or just flat out ending the game O.O, but what is in between? An Immortal All-in? As Protoss, I just feel the philosophy is to turtle up and tech up. Do you ever feel confident enough to pressure your opponent and deny his 3rd without heavy losses? When you DO tech up, the army compositions aren't anything that is TOO crazy. Corruptor/Vikings for Colo, Hydra/Marines for VR, Good splitting vs HT storm OR EMP/(Abduct?) You build up a death ball with chrono'd upgrades and just pain train your way to the opponents base. Rather stale in my opinion. Some more SUSTAINABLE mid game units would be a relief, Blink Stalkers aside...
But then again, the design makes sense. Protoss is this advanced alien race, it makes sense from their characteristics that they would have to tech up to in battle so they can hit their peak strength.
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On April 16 2013 03:06 FancyCaTSC2 wrote:
I love how all people just look at the protoss players and forget the implications for other races.
Maybe I play Terran exactly because I enjoy that my T1 is so strong and the game would be a lot less enjoyable if I had to incooperate Thors into my army.
This is exactly what I just realized today. Thors, the unit every terran hates to use, are the equivalent of all those high tech units protoss needs to incorporate in order to compete in every game they play. It always looks so awkward to see Thors in a terran composition because everything else terran has is very microable. Unfortunately the whole of the Protoss army is a bunch of different sized Thors. And even though some of those have abilities to use, there is not much fancy micro you can do to make your units more cost effective. Instead protoss gets one-time cost-efficiency bonuses with things like warp-in and recall.
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"In terms of overall results, protoss had the worst consistency. I feel that this trend will continue for protoss in the future, unless blizzard addresses the early game viability of protoss non-committal aggression and economy." quoted for truth I have totally agreed with this since WoL and I still see in Hots. I think this could fix most anything.
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Sc2 Protoss is all about snowballing tech and upgrades that simply become an avalanche that can become unstoppable. This design is why Warpgate and Sentries are acceptable: they allow Protoss some flexibility in stalling or intimidating their opponents, which in turn provides Protoss more leeway when it comes to Macro. That said, I honestly think Protoss in SC2 has been the most Macro dependent race, which is really hurting now because both other races have new/buffed units specifically designed to harass Macro into submission. I'm okay with Protoss requiring more skill now to play, since Macro games are significantly more difficult to play as Protoss in HotS, but the problem is that a Protoss that doesn't play aggressive simply cannot keep up. Period.
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On April 16 2013 05:21 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 02:48 Zarahtra wrote:On April 15 2013 22:52 Big J wrote:On April 15 2013 22:24 Foxxan wrote:On April 15 2013 21:37 Big J wrote:On April 15 2013 19:31 Zarahtra wrote:On April 15 2013 18:02 Big J wrote:On April 15 2013 17:35 Zarahtra wrote:On April 15 2013 17:00 sUgArMaNiAc wrote:On April 15 2013 07:03 IcedBacon wrote:
Warpgate is my biggest problem with Protoss. It's forgiving for bad macro and also allows for so much of the cheesy shit that P can do. Floating 2k mins? Just throw down 6 more gateways and warp in a big round. Terran can do this to with barracks though... only difference is protoss can choose where to warp in. Well the big thing about warp gates is they need to be balanced in a way that a reinforcement of upto 40 warp gate supply doesn't win the protoss the game outright, that is to say, they force gateway units to suck(or in the case of the HT, not come out truly combat ready). It has just forced Blizzard's hand to nerf the protoss units from being the strong tough warrior to being gimmicky glasscannons that desperately need to hit a timing before x upgrade of the opponent is done. Which patches apart from khaydarian amulet removal + zealot buff are you referring to? The WoL patch. As warp gate was in WoL from the start, gateway units sucked pretty much from the start and the real impact units were their tech units, which is just a sad design which has left protoss so gimmicky. From TvP POV, if you snipe/Emp the templars and kill the colossi the rest of the protoss army doesn't stand a chance. I'll concede that blink stalkers do break that chain in PvZ if you mass them enough, but that requires a critical mass/deathball, which isn't exactly the strength I wish protoss had more of. The protoss army is imo just to weak without their power units, which comes both from the remax capability provided in lategame, but moreso I'd say from being able to be 1 round of production ahead with their very many different allins in the early game. Which connection do those things need to have? Gateway units have been slightly buffed BW-->SC2 (blink, dragoon range upgrade not needed, nearly same stats, added sentries). They follow the exact same design rules all other Starcraft units go: the stronger the unit, the less costefficent. Protoss smallest units are zealots, stalkers which are naturally less costefficient than the weaker marine, zergling, roach/BW hydralisk. The only thing that changed is that the pathing/selection/gameplay changed, and now Protoss doesn't have the advantage of "easy control" anymore where 12 Protoss T1 units would be capable of combating 24 Zerg/Terran T1 units due to better control. (and even that wasn't quite true in BW, as marines&medics just like hydra/ling do counter gateway units and Protoss was just as dependend as in SC2 to go reaver&templar against those) You cant compare bw>sc2, you have to see the whole package. The protoss units are worse in power compared to zerg,terran in sc2 than in broodwar Basic gateway units are worse than bio, because that's the whole point of making bio viable in SC2. (would be quite a fail if zealot/stalker could hold it's own against MMM AND Protoss would get all the high tech tech options on the same upgrade, hell, templar/archon even on the same production path) And Protoss was already superdependend on all forms of tech units in BW against Zerg, nothing has changed on that front. Gateway units are shit with good pathing and unlimited selection. By design. Non of that has anything to do with Warpgate whatsoever. Seriously guys... Not every unit in the game can be as powerful as the marine. All that whining about Z/P bad low tier units... yes, one races T1 units will always be better than anothers, just by how the techpaths work. That doesn't mean that larva, warpgate, sentries, infestors caused "the units to suck". Hell, if you ask me the only thing that makes other units suck in this game is the marine, which has caused actual nerfs on other units. Not just imaginary that people come up with as theory, after year long figuering which units dominate which other. (blizzard surely did not have the time to figure out the SC2 2013 gameplay in their planning stages 2008,2009) The point is that they are too weak compared to most notably bio, and their tech units are to strong compared to most notably all of the tech units of terran. The core units of protoss suck in comparison to the core units of terran. There will always be a best unit, or in the least a best unit in certain situation, but if we are comparing game design of TvP in BW and SC2, neither race had a power unit such as the ht/colossi are in SC2. The ht was strong in BW, but a single one didn't pack as much punch as in SC2(for multiple reasons). My core point is that I think TvP especially would be more rewarding if the say 90/140 supply of units in the protoss army were actually the dangerous part of the army and the tech units were the support units rather than the other way around. It's been the topic of various discussions that the reaver was way more powerful than the Colossus. And HTs weren't shabby either with their 112 damage storms. Even more, bio or biomech wasn't even viable to begin with against those units, even though MarineMedic beats Dragoon and Zealot in Broodwar. The reality has nothing to do with warpgate or sentry based gateway nerfs. Blizzard made bio viable by tuning down Protoss splash and tuning up Terran with Marauder&Medivac instead of usless Firebats and damage/square reducing medics (not to mention the implicit drop play you get from medivacs, "for free" when you just go for combat healing). Of course you may say that they have gone overboard with Terran bio and not far enough with Protoss splash. But in my opinion it will always come down less to how good/bad warpgate units are, but rather that Protoss as a whole concept is basically just "moooooooooooooaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrr beef". Which makes Protoss units trade badly, as they don't have the damage output to achieve anything when outnumbered. (unlike marines, zerglings, banelings, mines, tanks... which will often take a few enemies with them to the grave and therefore allow for "let's try to attack there, it can't be too bad" kind of gameplay). (zealots, oracles and templar being the exceptions) Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 04:45 Silencioseu wrote:On April 15 2013 21:37 Big J wrote:On April 15 2013 19:31 Zarahtra wrote:On April 15 2013 18:02 Big J wrote:On April 15 2013 17:35 Zarahtra wrote:On April 15 2013 17:00 sUgArMaNiAc wrote:On April 15 2013 07:03 IcedBacon wrote:
Warpgate is my biggest problem with Protoss. It's forgiving for bad macro and also allows for so much of the cheesy shit that P can do. Floating 2k mins? Just throw down 6 more gateways and warp in a big round. Terran can do this to with barracks though... only difference is protoss can choose where to warp in. Well the big thing about warp gates is they need to be balanced in a way that a reinforcement of upto 40 warp gate supply doesn't win the protoss the game outright, that is to say, they force gateway units to suck(or in the case of the HT, not come out truly combat ready). It has just forced Blizzard's hand to nerf the protoss units from being the strong tough warrior to being gimmicky glasscannons that desperately need to hit a timing before x upgrade of the opponent is done. Which patches apart from khaydarian amulet removal + zealot buff are you referring to? The WoL patch. As warp gate was in WoL from the start, gateway units sucked pretty much from the start and the real impact units were their tech units, which is just a sad design which has left protoss so gimmicky. From TvP POV, if you snipe/Emp the templars and kill the colossi the rest of the protoss army doesn't stand a chance. I'll concede that blink stalkers do break that chain in PvZ if you mass them enough, but that requires a critical mass/deathball, which isn't exactly the strength I wish protoss had more of. The protoss army is imo just to weak without their power units, which comes both from the remax capability provided in lategame, but moreso I'd say from being able to be 1 round of production ahead with their very many different allins in the early game. Which connection do those things need to have? Gateway units have been slightly buffed BW-->SC2 (blink, dragoon range upgrade not needed, nearly same stats, added sentries). They follow the exact same design rules all other Starcraft units go: the stronger the unit, the less costefficent. Protoss smallest units are zealots, stalkers which are naturally less costefficient than the weaker marine, zergling, roach/BW hydralisk. The only thing that changed is that the pathing/selection/gameplay changed, and now Protoss doesn't have the advantage of "easy control" anymore where 12 Protoss T1 units would be capable of combating 24 Zerg/Terran T1 units due to better control. (and even that wasn't quite true in BW, as marines&medics just like hydra/ling do counter gateway units and Protoss was just as dependend as in SC2 to go reaver&templar against those) But there was no marauder in bw right? right. That doesn't mean that "gateway units have been nerfed because of warpgate". It means that Terran got the marauder. Not some arbitrary: you see guys, after years of Starcraft 2 we know that bio beats gateway builds. Obviously that stuff was nerfed long before we figured this out due to sentries and warpgates
He didn't say that gateway units were nerfed because of warpgate just that they sucked because of it*, I don't really see how you can deny that. The connection they have is that if gateway units were buffed then one base gateway all-ins, which were very popular early on in WoL, would have become too powerful since Warpgate can effectively negate the defenders advantage.
*The difference being that gateway units were not nerfed, but the other races early units have become more effective and they could not buff gateway units to match them directly, so they had to indirectly buff them defensively by adding sentries followed by compensating for their offensive weakness with strong splash in Colossi and High Templar. I know you mentioned HT and Reavers being stronger in BW, but the way that units clump in SC2 means that any form of aoe is just much more effective.
Edit: The sad thing is that I actually really like Warpgate, Sentries and the concept of the Colossus, but I think a lot more people would be happy if we could find some kind of even ground where gateway units were a little stronger, and Colossi/HT were a little weaker such that Protoss has a more stable early game and Colossi/HT wouldn't require quite as hard counters as they currently do.
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EPT
