NOTE: This is not an interview. It is an article published by Daily eSports that evaluates EG-TL's influence and effect in Proleague. Also, the title of the thread was not something I came up with either, it was all Daily eSports.
Before the start of Proleague, the partnership between Evil Geniuses and Team Liquid became the subject of many hot topics. Many people saw EG-TL as a championship contender team and as a threat to KeSPA's strongest teams when the alliance was first announced because of EG-TL's potential. However, EG-TL's Proleague results are 7-14 with the conclusion of the third round and they are now at a critical stage. Now the question that everyone is asking is whether or not EG-TL will be able pick things up for round four and onward as Proleague commences as HotS.
◆Maximum Potential? Even before the start of Proleague, EG-TL held a lot of hype. Mainly because both teams were known for winning multiple championships in foreign tournaments and had players like Stephano, who shifted the paradigm for Zerg, ThorZaIN, DreamHack champion HerO, and TaeJa, who was notorious for his stylistic plays. With the addition of 8th Team's Jaedong to this composition, many people were sold on the notion that EG-TL would at the very least, rank in the top four.
However, even before the season began, people pointed out that EG-TL had somewhat of a weak Terran lineup and eventually that became the team's downfall. Liquid`TaeJa, who started off the season with a whopping 6-1 record, suffered a wrist injury and EG-TL headed into a critical situation because their ace player had to be removed from the roster. 2x NASL champion PuMa was on a losing streak and ThorZaIN decided to focus on HotS so every other team in Proleague was able to send out a lineup that could easily counter EG-TL's lineup. With EG-TL never being able to send out a proper lineup, their performances were never up to expectations.
◆Jaedong's poor performance and TaeJa's injury. TaeJa's inability to play out the role of EG-TL's ace as to everyone's expectations was crippling to the team. TaeJa, who was a surefire contender for the most wins in Proleague award with his 6-1 record at the start, had to be removed entirely from the roster because of his wrist injury. He did make a comeback after two months but his performances were not what they once were. People were even blaming TaeJa that he was sabotaging Proleague because they were not seeing a Code S semifinalist performance.
Former 8th Team's Jaedong's poor performance was also disappointing. Jaedong started off with five straight victories at the start of the season and was fulfilling his role for the team but is now currently on a five game losing streak and the atmosphere lessened significantly. The notion was that Jaedong was never able to overcome his ZvP weakness.
HerO is currently one of EG-TL's best performing players with a 10-10 record but he has been way too inconsistent. Stephano was also a player that many people had high expectations for but he was another let down with a 6-5 record. Former TSL's Revival was also another player that everyone had eyes on, and even though he did take down SK Telecom T1's Rain, he is currently on a six game losing streak. Lastly, JYP is tied with HerO as EG-TL's best performing player with a 10-10 record and there was also a notion that JYP was able to overcome his PvT weakness but the fact that he is not performing up to expectations cannot be overlooked.
◆Will HotS be their Saving Grace? EG-TL's plan is to use round four, which will commence as HotS, to bring themselves back into the league. EG-TL hasn't officially confirmed this but there seems to be a plan to switch up the foreigners roster for round four. There is a very high chance that EG will add on to the EG-TL roster, Benjamin "DeMusliM" Baker and Greg "IdrA" Fields who has already been preparing for HotS for a long time.
Here is the most important question of all, can EG-TL's main players show a different form for Heart of the Swarm? If EG-TL is unable to perform up to expectations yet again for HotS, then there is a good chance that EG-TL will never be able to break out of last place. However, EG-TL had a head start in preparing for HotS compared to other Proleague teams so once again, there are high expectations for them.
The team performs poorly especially vs protoss in a protoss heavy league going into a game where protoss is doing better than before. I don't think it looks good.
At least now we have an article to link to morons who believe TL writers were simply biased in the Round 1 preview and no one with a clear mind would have thought that EGTL would do well.
I still maintain that based on the actual information available/knowledge of the players, that infamous article was on the money. Taeja/Hero in theory was a one-two punch of top class Code S players (when on form) that at the time Kespa times hadn't really shown any evidence of having.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing. The EGTL thing has been the most depressing thing to me in my time in this scene, so much rampant negativity and bashing of a cool endeavour.
Why are people so seemingly OFFENDED that they've been doing badly.
◆Will HotS be their Saving Grace? EG-TL's plan is to use round four, which will commence as HotS, to bring themselves back into the league. EG-TL hasn't officially confirmed this but there seems to be a plan to switch up the foreigners roster for round four. There is a very high chance that EG will add on to the EG-TL roster, Benjamin "DeMusliM" Baker and Greg "IdrA" Fields who has already been preparing for HotS for a long time.
Here is the most important question of all, can EG-TL's main players show a different form for Heart of the Swarm? If EG-TL is unable to perform up to expectations yet again for HotS, then there is a good chance that EG-TL will never be able to break out of last place. However, EG-TL had a head start in preparing for HotS compared to other Proleague teams so once again, there are high expectations for them.
On March 07 2013 21:00 StarVe wrote: At least now we have an article to link to morons who believe TL writers were simply biased in the Round 1 preview and no one with a clear mind would have thought that EGTL would do well.
On March 07 2013 21:00 StarVe wrote: At least now we have an article to link to morons who believe TL writers were simply biased in the Round 1 preview and no one with a clear mind would have thought that EGTL would do well.
why so aggressive?
Because every thread that vaguely involves EGTL, be it the LR ones or any time they play in an individual league has morons coming out with smug 'HAHAHA EGTL SO BAD' fucking nonsense every other post.
It's obnoxious in the extreme for those of us who just want to stay on topic, or not throw EGTL under a bus. May as well get pissed off about it, I stopped browsing the SC section here for a good few months because there was no point.
it's not quite as bad as WCSKR lower bracket when esf antifans were out in full force, but it is still very obnoxious all the same. kind of depressing watching EG-TL for sc2 fans, since most sc2 fans have more invested in EG-TL than in PL teams. that may change over time, but EG-TL (and especially foreigners) doing poorly in PL is not good for viewership and general interest in that arena.
On March 07 2013 21:00 StarVe wrote: At least now we have an article to link to morons who believe TL writers were simply biased in the Round 1 preview and no one with a clear mind would have thought that EGTL would do well.
When morons understand things better than you, you should know you are blind minded. Calling people morons when they are correct, what does that make you to be?
On March 07 2013 21:24 Serimek wrote: Only Stephano above 50%. Not something I was expecting at all before SPL started...
I was expecting that actually. Well not that he would be the only one. I still had a bit higher expectation from Stephano I think his skill lvl should be around 60%+ but we will see
On March 07 2013 21:28 opterown wrote: it's not quite as bad as WCSKR lower bracket when esf antifans were out in full force, but it is still very obnoxious all the same. kind of depressing watching EG-TL for sc2 fans, since most sc2 fans have more invested in EG-TL than in PL teams. that may change over time, but EG-TL (and especially foreigners) doing poorly in PL is not good for viewership and general interest in that arena.
The foreigner players has actually not disappointed. Huk and Thorzain we knew they would struggle. You could say has Stephano disappointed abit? But frankly I don't think so maybe his win ratio should be a bit higher. No its the korean line-up that's been absolutely horrible and is the main reason why EG-TL has done so poorly
On March 07 2013 21:00 StarVe wrote: At least now we have an article to link to morons who believe TL writers were simply biased in the Round 1 preview and no one with a clear mind would have thought that EGTL would do well.
When morons understand things better than you, you should know you are blind minded. Calling people morons when they are correct, what does that make you to be?
i really do wonder how many SPL viewers really honestly thought that EG-TL would not do well in PL
1. I think the partnership model, and basing fulltime in Korea is the only way foreigners will ever compete, so it's good to see somebody try it. 2. A lot of my favourite players are on the team. 3. I never got to watch BW PL to see what all you alltimers were so nostalgic for. 4. New and cool maps.
In the period where I hated my very soul most tournaments due to the stagnation of the game, the EGTL effort maintained my interest in SC2 broadcasts, and I couldn't even talk about it with fellow LRers due to the horrible threads.
People were even blaming TaeJa that he was sabotaging Proleague because they were not seeing a Code S semifinalist performance.
those people should get a very severe wrist injury -_-
Sounds like something from DCInside so it's probably a joke. They like to make up mock excuses for the hyped players (especially funny when Bisu fails to get past a qualifier as usual).
it may sound weird....but there is not enough quality to be succesful in korea right now....especially since people like puma dropped heavily skillwise....potential yes, actual quality no (except ppl like hero). and the worst thing about it is the ticking clock. cuz in a year kespa player/teams will just dominate everything and then there will be no chance at all for eg-tl to win something down there
On March 07 2013 21:00 StarVe wrote: At least now we have an article to link to morons who believe TL writers were simply biased in the Round 1 preview and no one with a clear mind would have thought that EGTL would do well.
When morons understand things better than you, you should know you are blind minded. Calling people morons when they are correct, what does that make you to be?
The thing is that calling out EG-TL at the very beggining was like a blind prediction. The roster looked very good on paper and as the article says, could perfectly be a top 4 team. That things went the wrong way, with TaeJa's injury and some others underperforming (I was really expecting more from HerO), couldn't be really predicted and is what puts the team in the spot they are at the moment.
On March 07 2013 21:00 StarVe wrote: At least now we have an article to link to morons who believe TL writers were simply biased in the Round 1 preview and no one with a clear mind would have thought that EGTL would do well.
When morons understand things better than you, you should know you are blind minded. Calling people morons when they are correct, what does that make you to be?
i really do wonder how many SPL viewers really honestly thought that EG-TL would not do well in PL
So majority on TL was wrong, isn't that the common thing to happen in every corner of our society? Just give credit to minority when they are right, even if that's just a lucky guess. Calling them morons at this point is pretty low.
On March 07 2013 20:51 Seeker wrote:Many people saw EG-TL as a championship contender team and as a threat to KeSPA's strongest teams when the alliance was first announced because of EG-TL's potential.
Many people means biased foreigners and propaganda news articles on TL.net? I'm sorry, did anybody actually think this team was going to go above .500 in PL?
On March 07 2013 21:00 StarVe wrote: At least now we have an article to link to morons who believe TL writers were simply biased in the Round 1 preview and no one with a clear mind would have thought that EGTL would do well.
When morons understand things better than you, you should know you are blind minded. Calling people morons when they are correct, what does that make you to be?
i really do wonder how many SPL viewers really honestly thought that EG-TL would not do well in PL
So majority was wrong, isn't that the common thing to happen in every corner of our society? Just give credit to minority when they are right, even if that's just a lucky guess.
yeah, but there's no need for the minority to be major dicks about it haha
On March 07 2013 20:51 Seeker wrote:Many people saw EG-TL as a championship contender team and as a threat to KeSPA's strongest teams when the alliance was first announced because of EG-TL's potential.
Many people means biased foreigners and propaganda news articles on TL.net? I'm sorry, did anybody actually think this team was going to go above .500 in PL?
On March 07 2013 20:51 Seeker wrote:Many people saw EG-TL as a championship contender team and as a threat to KeSPA's strongest teams when the alliance was first announced because of EG-TL's potential.
Many people means biased foreigners and propaganda news articles on TL.net? I'm sorry, did anybody actually think this team was going to go above .500 in PL?
I thought they'd do ok in the first few rounds and then fade off in the second half. I knew they would struggle against teams with strong protoss though since basically everyone on their team's worst MU is vP it seems except Stephano
On March 07 2013 21:00 StarVe wrote: At least now we have an article to link to morons who believe TL writers were simply biased in the Round 1 preview and no one with a clear mind would have thought that EGTL would do well.
When morons understand things better than you, you should know you are blind minded. Calling people morons when they are correct, what does that make you to be?
The thing is that calling out EG-TL at the very beggining was like a blind prediction. The roster looked very good on paper and as the article says, could perfectly be a top 4 team. That things went the wrong way, with TaeJa's injury and some others underperforming (I was really expecting more from HerO), couldn't be really predicted and is what puts the team in the spot they are at the moment.
I don't see how they roster looks very good on paper. Taeja and Hero are the only ones good on paper. Stephano is just average when it comes to Proleague/GSL/OSL format. and the rest is average.
Idra in proleague would be a giant joke. He shouldn't be allowed to play in the most professional league when he acts like a little kid all the time, and when he's nowhere near good enough to be on that kind of stage.
If they send Idra to proleague, it will be ridiculous, and definitely taking the opportunity away from someone more deserving (basically almost anyone else...).
On March 07 2013 21:07 opterown wrote: that article was probably less incorrect than the one intrigue wrote about elephants~
Kespa already has 13 spots in Code S.
Might want to reread that article again, he spoke of dominance within months.
On March 07 2013 21:42 Lonyo wrote: Idra in proleague would be a giant joke. He shouldn't be allowed to play in the most professional league when he acts like a little kid all the time, and when he's nowhere near good enough to be on that kind of stage.
If they send Idra to proleague, it will be ridiculous, and definitely taking the opportunity away from someone more deserving (basically almost anyone else...).
Idra actually can be very professional when its required.
On March 07 2013 21:00 StarVe wrote: At least now we have an article to link to morons who believe TL writers were simply biased in the Round 1 preview and no one with a clear mind would have thought that EGTL would do well.
When morons understand things better than you, you should know you are blind minded. Calling people morons when they are correct, what does that make you to be?
i really do wonder how many SPL viewers really honestly thought that EG-TL would not do well in PL
So majority was wrong, isn't that the common thing to happen in every corner of our society? Just give credit to minority when they are right, even if that's just a lucky guess.
yeah, but there's no need for the minority to be major dicks about it haha
On March 07 2013 20:51 Seeker wrote:Many people saw EG-TL as a championship contender team and as a threat to KeSPA's strongest teams when the alliance was first announced because of EG-TL's potential.
Many people means biased foreigners and propaganda news articles on TL.net? I'm sorry, did anybody actually think this team was going to go above .500 in PL?
i think many people really did expect it
Calling minority morons at this point is dick too, don't you think? Since there are more majority people, so there are more dicks from majority side. Can we minority even defend ourselves?
On March 07 2013 21:00 StarVe wrote: At least now we have an article to link to morons who believe TL writers were simply biased in the Round 1 preview and no one with a clear mind would have thought that EGTL would do well.
When morons understand things better than you, you should know you are blind minded. Calling people morons when they are correct, what does that make you to be?
The thing is that calling out EG-TL at the very beggining was like a blind prediction. The roster looked very good on paper and as the article says, could perfectly be a top 4 team. That things went the wrong way, with TaeJa's injury and some others underperforming (I was really expecting more from HerO), couldn't be really predicted and is what puts the team in the spot they are at the moment.
I don't see how they roster looks very good on paper. Taeja and Hero are the only ones good on paper. Stephano is just average when it comes to Proleague/GSL/OSL format. and the rest is average.
that's the same for, say, SKT (fanta and rain looked good, the rest average) or CJ (only hero was really notable on that team) or khan (roro only notable sc2 palyer before). and taeja/hero were considered generally better than the PL aces at that time.
On March 07 2013 21:00 StarVe wrote: At least now we have an article to link to morons who believe TL writers were simply biased in the Round 1 preview and no one with a clear mind would have thought that EGTL would do well.
When morons understand things better than you, you should know you are blind minded. Calling people morons when they are correct, what does that make you to be?
The thing is that calling out EG-TL at the very beggining was like a blind prediction. The roster looked very good on paper and as the article says, could perfectly be a top 4 team. That things went the wrong way, with TaeJa's injury and some others underperforming (I was really expecting more from HerO), couldn't be really predicted and is what puts the team in the spot they are at the moment.
I don't see how they roster looks very good on paper. Taeja and Hero are the only ones good on paper. Stephano is just average when it comes to Proleague/GSL/OSL format. and the rest is average.
that's the same for, say, SKT (fanta and rain looked good, the rest average) or CJ (only hero was really notable on that team) or khan (roro only notable sc2 palyer before). and taeja/hero were considered generally better than the PL aces at that time.
On March 07 2013 21:00 StarVe wrote: At least now we have an article to link to morons who believe TL writers were simply biased in the Round 1 preview and no one with a clear mind would have thought that EGTL would do well.
When morons understand things better than you, you should know you are blind minded. Calling people morons when they are correct, what does that make you to be?
i really do wonder how many SPL viewers really honestly thought that EG-TL would not do well in PL
So majority was wrong, isn't that the common thing to happen in every corner of our society? Just give credit to minority when they are right, even if that's just a lucky guess.
yeah, but there's no need for the minority to be major dicks about it haha
On March 07 2013 21:39 ineversmile wrote:
On March 07 2013 20:51 Seeker wrote:Many people saw EG-TL as a championship contender team and as a threat to KeSPA's strongest teams when the alliance was first announced because of EG-TL's potential.
Many people means biased foreigners and propaganda news articles on TL.net? I'm sorry, did anybody actually think this team was going to go above .500 in PL?
i think many people really did expect it
Calling minority morons at this point is dick too, don't you think? Since there are more majority people, so there are more dicks from majority side. Can we minority even defend ourselves?
sure, if said minority weren't dicks about it, then they wouldn't be considered morons. it makes the experience of PL and LR threads rather toxic
On March 07 2013 21:00 StarVe wrote: At least now we have an article to link to morons who believe TL writers were simply biased in the Round 1 preview and no one with a clear mind would have thought that EGTL would do well.
When morons understand things better than you, you should know you are blind minded. Calling people morons when they are correct, what does that make you to be?
The thing is that calling out EG-TL at the very beggining was like a blind prediction. The roster looked very good on paper and as the article says, could perfectly be a top 4 team. That things went the wrong way, with TaeJa's injury and some others underperforming (I was really expecting more from HerO), couldn't be really predicted and is what puts the team in the spot they are at the moment.
I don't see how they roster looks very good on paper. Taeja and Hero are the only ones good on paper. Stephano is just average when it comes to Proleague/GSL/OSL format. and the rest is average.
that's the same for, say, SKT (fanta and rain looked good, the rest average) or CJ (only hero was really notable on that team) or khan (roro only notable sc2 palyer before). and taeja/hero were considered generally better than the PL aces at that time.
On March 07 2013 21:00 StarVe wrote: At least now we have an article to link to morons who believe TL writers were simply biased in the Round 1 preview and no one with a clear mind would have thought that EGTL would do well.
When morons understand things better than you, you should know you are blind minded. Calling people morons when they are correct, what does that make you to be?
i really do wonder how many SPL viewers really honestly thought that EG-TL would not do well in PL
So majority was wrong, isn't that the common thing to happen in every corner of our society? Just give credit to minority when they are right, even if that's just a lucky guess.
yeah, but there's no need for the minority to be major dicks about it haha
On March 07 2013 21:39 ineversmile wrote:
On March 07 2013 20:51 Seeker wrote:Many people saw EG-TL as a championship contender team and as a threat to KeSPA's strongest teams when the alliance was first announced because of EG-TL's potential.
Many people means biased foreigners and propaganda news articles on TL.net? I'm sorry, did anybody actually think this team was going to go above .500 in PL?
i think many people really did expect it
Calling minority morons at this point is dick too, don't you think? Since there are more majority people, so there are more dicks from majority side. Can we minority even defend ourselves?
sure, if said minority weren't dicks about it, then they wouldn't be considered morons. it makes the experience of PL and LR threads rather toxic
On March 07 2013 21:00 StarVe wrote: At least now we have an article to link to morons who believe TL writers were simply biased in the Round 1 preview and no one with a clear mind would have thought that EGTL would do well.
When morons understand things better than you, you should know you are blind minded. Calling people morons when they are correct, what does that make you to be?
The thing is that calling out EG-TL at the very beggining was like a blind prediction. The roster looked very good on paper and as the article says, could perfectly be a top 4 team. That things went the wrong way, with TaeJa's injury and some others underperforming (I was really expecting more from HerO), couldn't be really predicted and is what puts the team in the spot they are at the moment.
I don't see how they roster looks very good on paper. Taeja and Hero are the only ones good on paper. Stephano is just average when it comes to Proleague/GSL/OSL format. and the rest is average.
that's the same for, say, SKT (fanta and rain looked good, the rest average) or CJ (only hero was really notable on that team) or khan (roro only notable sc2 palyer before). and taeja/hero were considered generally better than the PL aces at that time.
only if u are a SC2 foreigner who is fanobying.
easy to say in hindsight lol
nah if you actually watch the games and not just look at the stats you can actually see how good they are. and yes everyone would say EG-TL had the better aces (cause Taeja aund Hero actually showed that they can play in a PL format where u prepare for some time). but the average players are far superior for the Kespa players. cause they actually prepare for proleague.
On March 07 2013 21:00 StarVe wrote: At least now we have an article to link to morons who believe TL writers were simply biased in the Round 1 preview and no one with a clear mind would have thought that EGTL would do well.
When morons understand things better than you, you should know you are blind minded. Calling people morons when they are correct, what does that make you to be?
The thing is that calling out EG-TL at the very beggining was like a blind prediction. The roster looked very good on paper and as the article says, could perfectly be a top 4 team. That things went the wrong way, with TaeJa's injury and some others underperforming (I was really expecting more from HerO), couldn't be really predicted and is what puts the team in the spot they are at the moment.
I don't see how they roster looks very good on paper. Taeja and Hero are the only ones good on paper. Stephano is just average when it comes to Proleague/GSL/OSL format. and the rest is average.
that's the same for, say, SKT (fanta and rain looked good, the rest average) or CJ (only hero was really notable on that team) or khan (roro only notable sc2 palyer before). and taeja/hero were considered generally better than the PL aces at that time.
Stop with your logic.
Hero and Taeja, multiple LAN winners, both have made GSL Ro4s.
Prior to some of the breakouts of other players, at a time where Kespa players were struggling to do anything in GSL it would be retarded NOT to give EGTL credit for that, at least on paper.
As time has gone on, certain previous unknown Kespa players have shown good chops, and that assessment has needed re-evaluated. However at the time, perfectly fine assessment. Anything else would have been baseless conjecture
On March 07 2013 21:07 opterown wrote: that article was probably less incorrect than the one intrigue wrote about elephants~
Kespa already has 13 spots in Code S.
With Kespa players being seeded into Code S since Kespa moved to SC2 up to now
i wonder if those excuses will end when roro rapes symbol to become a gsl champion for kespa.
Exacty the kind of obnoxious crap. Respect good play, why turn it into a Kespa vs the rest pissing contest?
Rain's breakout showed me some of the best Protoss play I have yet seen, alas he has fallen off a bit. However, the Kespa players have done NOTHING to show they will 'dominate'. Compete yes, perhaps be the best players in general, but they're not going to destroy everyone.
I think I'm going crazy. I keep thinking that everything will be all good when IdrA arrives. It sounds crazy when I say it in my head, it sounds crazy when I type it, but I keep thinking it.
I guess Ben and IdrA are going to go over there now as they are both out of MLG (Ben is out as he didn't even get a qualifier spot, i was told the reason why but i have forgot) and not in IEM, no reason to stay in NA and just train when they can go to Korea for a month and hit the SPL up for better practice
How rude of me. Thanks for the translation on this interview Seeker it's very good!
On March 07 2013 21:07 opterown wrote: that article was probably less incorrect than the one intrigue wrote about elephants~
Kespa already has 13 spots in Code S.
With Kespa players being seeded into Code S since Kespa moved to SC2 up to now
i wonder if those excuses will end when roro rapes symbol to become a gsl champion for kespa.
Exacty the kind of obnoxious crap. Respect good play, why turn it into a Kespa vs the rest pissing contest?
Rain's breakout showed me some of the best Protoss play I have yet seen, alas he has fallen off a bit. However, the Kespa players have done NOTHING to show they will 'dominate'. Compete yes, perhaps be the best players in general, but they're not going to destroy everyone.
This I can agree with, the kespa players haven't dominated like people thought they would, what they have done however is competed on even ground in some places with the rest of the SC2 scene.
I'm actually rooting for roro this GSL, I want a kespa winner.
On March 07 2013 21:24 Serimek wrote: Only Stephano above 50%. Not something I was expecting at all before SPL started...
Its kinda hard to make a point with player stats. they dont all share the sample size. Huk has 2 losses but that doesnt mean he is the worst player in PL you need to have bigger sample size to determine whos the best
On March 07 2013 21:47 Elite_ wrote: JYP and HerO best records for EG-TL in Proleague?
Let's direct all of our hate towards JYP because he's a terrible player and bash HerO for getting nervous in every LR thread.
Gotta love the community.
Hero is a better player and is part of Liquid= fan favourite. He has been very consistent up until now since his debut winning tournaments and placing highly in GSL, BWC etc.
JYP never got hype because... he's JYP. He was a decent player for the longest time; but he never really had an "OH SHIT" moment that got his name out there. Sure, he's on a Yankees team, but look at the other freakin' Koreans with him. Thrust a player like him in Proleague, with TBLS and the Elephant factor, obviously his fan-base wouldn't grow appropriately.
Personally, I think JYP being tied for top performance in EG-TL shows how terribad the team is. JYP isn't bad, JYP isn't good, he's average; it's just everyone else on his team is pretty shite. Seeing those winrates and that ranking chart is so fuckin' depressing, man. Serious.
On March 07 2013 21:07 opterown wrote: that article was probably less incorrect than the one intrigue wrote about elephants~
Kespa already has 13 spots in Code S.
With Kespa players being seeded into Code S since Kespa moved to SC2 up to now
i wonder if those excuses will end when roro rapes symbol to become a gsl champion for kespa.
well eventually a kespa player would have won, it's just a bit later than some expected (or hoped)
the truth you speak but just to be fair (and a bit annoying) - article only mentioned "a few months delay", not 2-4 exacty. So if some expected it to be 2 months, it's rather their problem not the article's crucial mistake.
On March 07 2013 21:07 opterown wrote: that article was probably less incorrect than the one intrigue wrote about elephants~
Kespa already has 13 spots in Code S.
With Kespa players being seeded into Code S since Kespa moved to SC2 up to now
i wonder if those excuses will end when roro rapes symbol to become a gsl champion for kespa.
well eventually a kespa player would have won, it's just a bit later than some expected (or hoped)
the truth you speak but just to be fair (and a bit annoying) - article only mentioned "a few months delay", not 2-4 exacty. So if some expected it to be 2 months, it's rather their problem not the article's crucial mistake.
I always saw it as "Kespa player(s) CAN win a GSL in X amount of time," rather than "Kespa player(s) WILL win a GSL in X amount of time."
Rain was GSL-champion material pretty early on; but just like other GSL-champion material players that don't have a trophy to their name, no one really denies their abilities, it's just harder to argue for their sake.
On March 07 2013 21:00 StarVe wrote: At least now we have an article to link to morons who believe TL writers were simply biased in the Round 1 preview and no one with a clear mind would have thought that EGTL would do well.
I think at one point you could swich two teams on the PL ranking and you would have the exact opposit of his preview ranking of the teams. That is incredibly inaccurate. And it is not only that, Fionn (and other TL writers as well) consistantly predicts that the kespa players will lose (and they are consistantly wrong).
I recomend that they watch some more of PL. I think it is at this point the most competitive league in the world.
From the get go I thought EG-TL would be the worst team in PL, they actually far exceeded my hopes in the beginning. I'd give them credit for doing as well as they did for a while.
I thought EGTL would do very well at the beginning, from what I saw of the hybrid league. The games were so laughably bad, I thought TaeJa and HerO would just have free wins for the first 2 rounds. To me the surprise isn't that they're losing now, it's that they failed to put up results when they had the chance.
I should also add, HerO's collapse contributed a lot to this. Nobody here could rightly predict that HerO was going to have one of the worst PL records. TaeJa also got injured for an entire round. Since EG-TL is mostly a 3-man team, it really hurts when something happens to 2 of them.
When the collaboration was announced, I thought Taeja, Stephano and Hero were the best players in Proleague, with a strong experienced support cast of JYP, Thorzain and Puma to make them the strongest team by far. Kespa players had only recently switched to SC2 and were still lagging far behind, except a select few like Rain and Bogus. I'm not sure what happened then. Kespa players have now caught up skillwise, but even in round 1, EG-TL severely underperformed. Is it due to bad coaching? Poor training conditions? Bad preparation? Too much travelling and focus on other tournaments? Who knows.
On March 07 2013 21:00 StarVe wrote: At least now we have an article to link to morons who believe TL writers were simply biased in the Round 1 preview and no one with a clear mind would have thought that EGTL would do well.
I think at one point you could swich two teams on the PL ranking and you would have the exact opposit of his preview ranking of the teams. That is incredibly inaccurate. And it is not only that, Fionn (and other TL writers as well) consistantly predicts that the kespa players will lose (and they are consistantly wrong).
I recomend that they watch some more of PL. I think it is at this point the most competitive league in the world.
Actually, getting the predictions completely wrong is kind of a trait with TL writers (the TL writer's curse). It has nothing to do with Kespa or not. It happened quite a bit before Kespa players switched.
On March 07 2013 22:32 Scorch wrote: When the collaboration was announced, I thought Taeja, Stephano and Hero were the best players in Proleague, with a strong experienced support cast of JYP, Thorzain and Puma to make them the strongest team by far. Kespa players had only recently switched to SC2 and were still lagging far behind, except a select few like Rain and Bogus. I'm not sure what happened then. Kespa players have now caught up skillwise, but even in round 1, EG-TL severely underperformed. Is it due to bad coaching? Poor training conditions? Bad preparation? Too much travelling and focus on other tournaments? Who knows.
Yeah, you were rational. But shit happens. Slumps, injuries and so on are valid reasons for failing to live up to expectations.
On March 07 2013 21:00 StarVe wrote: At least now we have an article to link to morons who believe TL writers were simply biased in the Round 1 preview and no one with a clear mind would have thought that EGTL would do well.
I think at one point you could swich two teams on the PL ranking and you would have the exact opposit of his preview ranking of the teams. That is incredibly inaccurate. And it is not only that, Fionn (and other TL writers as well) consistantly predicts that the kespa players will lose (and they are consistantly wrong).
I recomend that they watch some more of PL. I think it is at this point the most competitive league in the world.
Actually, getting the predictions completely wrong is kind of a trait with TL writers (the TL writer's curse). It has nothing to do with Kespa or not. It happened quite a bit before Kespa players switched.
For example, the last preview was group E in the U&D, they predict the three kespa players as the worst in the group and they end up in the spots 1-3. Coincidence?
Thorzain with the gigantic feet again. It feels like Proleague is not the focus of EG-TL and mainly just another teamleague tournament. It could have also been the arrival of HOTS and everyone was preparing for the switch. Either way EG-TL has been disappointing and even the writers in Korea agree.
On March 07 2013 21:00 StarVe wrote: At least now we have an article to link to morons who believe TL writers were simply biased in the Round 1 preview and no one with a clear mind would have thought that EGTL would do well.
I think at one point you could swich two teams on the PL ranking and you would have the exact opposit of his preview ranking of the teams. That is incredibly inaccurate. And it is not only that, Fionn (and other TL writers as well) consistantly predicts that the kespa players will lose (and they are consistantly wrong).
I recomend that they watch some more of PL. I think it is at this point the most competitive league in the world.
Actually, getting the predictions completely wrong is kind of a trait with TL writers (the TL writer's curse). It has nothing to do with Kespa or not. It happened quite a bit before Kespa players switched.
For example, the last preview was group E in the U&D, they predict the three kespa players as the worst in the group and they end up in the spots 1-3. Coincidence?
I am trying to point out that they did that when it was 6 eSF players as well. Maru was picked 5th in his group as well. And in the last U&D, they had Kespa players in the top 2 and yet they didn't make it.
They also famously wrote that Mvp shouldn't tarnish his image by going to IEM and Mvp ended up introducing a new meta (hellion/banshee) and winning the whole thing.
As a Kespa fan, you should be happy that they are ranking Kespa players that low, because the ones on the bottom usually comes out on top. Artosis already took down Rain and Bogus, do you want other Kespa players to be cursed as well?
I don't think many people expected EG-TL to get a top-4 ranking at all.
EG and TL are teams with a lot of cloud, they're teams in the spotlight but the truth is that many of their players are average at best, the fact that they're now competing with the best of the world and get a 7-14 score is impressive to me, I think it's a major step for both teams and maybe for foreigners as a whole.
EG-TL is a combination team with a lot of talent and skill as it features the best of both EG and TL but expecting them to dominate is unrealistic. I don't think this is worth a thread, as far as I know they're not even the worst team, they just have a negative winrate... korean teams are good, that's not news.
On March 07 2013 21:07 opterown wrote: that article was probably less incorrect than the one intrigue wrote about elephants~
Kespa already has 13 spots in Code S.
And the article said they would have pretty much every spot in Code S within 3-4 months.
considering what they have achieved now, the elephant article could very well have come true had Kespa switched right at the time of the article release, when the esf players haven't matured as much
EDIT: it just seems silly that most bashers of the elephant article do not take into context the timing of its conception and the significance it had then compared to what it has now
On March 07 2013 21:07 opterown wrote: that article was probably less incorrect than the one intrigue wrote about elephants~
Kespa already has 13 spots in Code S.
And the article said they would have pretty much every spot in Code S within 3-4 months.
considering what they have achieved now, the elephant article could very well have come true had Kespa switched right at the time of the article release, when the esf players haven't matured as much
EDIT: it just seems silly that most bashers of the elephant article do not take into context the timing of its conception and the significance it had then compared to what it has now
No, the elephant article was stupid because Kespa WEREN'T switching. So basically the author just went on this SC2 pro bashing ramble which could never be proved nor disproved and it just created a divide between Kespa fans and eSF fans. Like you pointed out, since Kespa switched a year later, the SC2 landscape was different. So nothing can be proven.
And having Kespa teams actually pick up eSF players like PartinG for a significant salary shows that eSF players aren't innately less talented in RTS. Which was what the article was trying to say. Also, having Roro in the GSL finals when players like JD, Bisu, Stork are still struggling doesn't help the article either.
Everyone just underestimated how fast the Kespa teams would improve.
Seeing now that they break into Code S convincingly it seems that Kespa A-teamers mechanics translate very well to SC2.
I for one love that they are pushing SC2 forward. Watching Proleague has been a blast and I can only hope that we will soon see ESF and Kespa teams in the same teamleague.
Also I don't believe EG-TL practices under nearly optimal conditions. This can't just be a case of Kespa player skill.
On March 07 2013 23:15 fluidin wrote: EDIT: it just seems silly that most bashers of the elephant article do not take into context the timing of its conception and the significance it had then compared to what it has now
What significance that article had, except for pissing off a whole lot of people?
The article at the time just pissed people off. The article was a bit too early, it should come out right about now or maybe in a couple of months.
But it had it points and today the people laughing at that article isn't laughing nearly as much looking at EG-TL in Proleague and the rise of Kespa players breaking into Code S. The hype article putting EG-TL as favourite to win the Proleague is much more laughable in retrospective.
Totally underestimating Kespa teams talent, discipline and practice regime.
Give it 6 more months and I would be surprised if there are any but Kespa A-teamers completely dominating every league.
On March 07 2013 23:15 fluidin wrote: EDIT: it just seems silly that most bashers of the elephant article do not take into context the timing of its conception and the significance it had then compared to what it has now
What significance that article had, except for pissing off a whole lot of people?
The article at the time just pissed people off. The article was a bit too early, it should come out right about now or maybe in a couple of months.
But it had it points and today the people laughing at that article isn't laughing nearly as much looking at EG-TL in Proleague and the rise of Kespa players breaking into Code S. The hype article putting EG-TL as favourite to win the Proleague is much more laughable in retrospective.
Totally underestimating Kespa teams talent, discipline and practice regime.
Give it 6 more months and I would be surprised if there are any but Kespa A-teamers completely dominating every league.
That article should never have been made, not even now. All it did was create a barrier between fans of the current ESF players and fans of the Kespa players. There already was a barrier but all this gave was ammunition for both sides. Now why i like some of the Kespa players gameplay i cannot root for them simply cause of the annoying elephant crap going on. Oh how i wished TL would simply ban all that nonsense when HoTS comes out so all this crap is at least limited but we all know they won't
On March 07 2013 23:15 fluidin wrote: EDIT: it just seems silly that most bashers of the elephant article do not take into context the timing of its conception and the significance it had then compared to what it has now
What significance that article had, except for pissing off a whole lot of people?
The article at the time just pissed people off. The article was a bit too early, it should come out right about now or maybe in a couple of months.
But it had it points and today the people laughing at that article isn't laughing nearly as much looking at EG-TL in Proleague and the rise of Kespa players breaking into Code S. The hype article putting EG-TL as favourite to win the Proleague is much more laughable in retrospective.
Totally underestimating Kespa teams talent, discipline and practice regime.
Give it 6 more months and I would be surprised if there are any but Kespa A-teamers completely dominating every league.
I think i had read that somewhere else.... almost a year ago.
On March 07 2013 23:15 fluidin wrote: EDIT: it just seems silly that most bashers of the elephant article do not take into context the timing of its conception and the significance it had then compared to what it has now
What significance that article had, except for pissing off a whole lot of people?
The article at the time just pissed people off. The article was a bit too early, it should come out right about now or maybe in a couple of months.
But it had it points and today the people laughing at that article isn't laughing nearly as much looking at EG-TL in Proleague and the rise of Kespa players breaking into Code S. The hype article putting EG-TL as favourite to win the Proleague is much more laughable in retrospective.
Totally underestimating Kespa teams talent, discipline and practice regime.
Give it 6 more months and I would be surprised if there are any but Kespa A-teamers completely dominating every league.
That article should never have been made, not even now. All it did was create a barrier between fans of the current ESF players and fans of the Kespa players. There already was a barrier but all this gave was ammunition for both sides. Now why i like some of the Kespa players gameplay i cannot root for them simply cause of the annoying elephant crap going on. Oh how i wished TL would simply ban all that nonsense when HoTS comes out so all this crap is at least limited but we all know they won't
if you can't root for a player because there is crap surrounding him it's just laughable.
On March 07 2013 23:15 fluidin wrote: EDIT: it just seems silly that most bashers of the elephant article do not take into context the timing of its conception and the significance it had then compared to what it has now
What significance that article had, except for pissing off a whole lot of people?
The article at the time just pissed people off. The article was a bit too early, it should come out right about now or maybe in a couple of months.
But it had it points and today the people laughing at that article isn't laughing nearly as much looking at EG-TL in Proleague and the rise of Kespa players breaking into Code S. The hype article putting EG-TL as favourite to win the Proleague is much more laughable in retrospective.
Totally underestimating Kespa teams talent, discipline and practice regime.
Give it 6 more months and I would be surprised if there are any but Kespa A-teamers completely dominating every league.
Complete nonsense based on what we've seen thus far. Some of the top top Kespa players doing mediocre, some of the previously mediocre are shining.
A hell of a lot of ESF players were also part Kespa-trained, imo some DON'T benefit from their particular practice regimes, and have flourished elsewhere.
On March 07 2013 21:07 opterown wrote: that article was probably less incorrect than the one intrigue wrote about elephants~
Kespa already has 13 spots in Code S.
And the article said they would have pretty much every spot in Code S within 3-4 months.
Not just code S, mind you. The article pretty much expected eSF players to dissapear from the map, with up to 300 KeSPA players ready to take over the competition.
On March 07 2013 21:07 opterown wrote: that article was probably less incorrect than the one intrigue wrote about elephants~
Kespa already has 13 spots in Code S.
And the article said they would have pretty much every spot in Code S within 3-4 months.
considering what they have achieved now, the elephant article could very well have come true had Kespa switched right at the time of the article release, when the esf players haven't matured as much
EDIT: it just seems silly that most bashers of the elephant article do not take into context the timing of its conception and the significance it had then compared to what it has now
No, the elephant article was stupid because Kespa WEREN'T switching. So basically the author just went on this SC2 pro bashing ramble which could never be proved nor disproved and it just created a divide between Kespa fans and eSF fans. Like you pointed out, since Kespa switched a year later, the SC2 landscape was different. So nothing can be proven.
And having Kespa teams actually pick up eSF players like PartinG for a significant salary shows that eSF players aren't innately less talented in RTS. Which was what the article was trying to say. Also, having Roro in the GSL finals when players like JD, Bisu, Stork are still struggling doesn't help the article either.
Ive said many times that Bisu wasnt as good during the end of Broodwar. Roro also elimnated Bisu in the last BW osl preliminaries. Elephant isnt entirely right either. Soulkey started to become S class level in BW during 2010, had he switched to SC2 during that time he would receive the same shit from BW elitists. MVP and MC might become the next Soulkey if they stayed in BW.
On March 07 2013 23:15 fluidin wrote: EDIT: it just seems silly that most bashers of the elephant article do not take into context the timing of its conception and the significance it had then compared to what it has now
What significance that article had, except for pissing off a whole lot of people?
The article at the time just pissed people off. The article was a bit too early, it should come out right about now or maybe in a couple of months.
But it had it points and today the people laughing at that article isn't laughing nearly as much looking at EG-TL in Proleague and the rise of Kespa players breaking into Code S. The hype article putting EG-TL as favourite to win the Proleague is much more laughable in retrospective.
Totally underestimating Kespa teams talent, discipline and practice regime.
Give it 6 more months and I would be surprised if there are any but Kespa A-teamers completely dominating every league.
That article should never have been made, not even now. All it did was create a barrier between fans of the current ESF players and fans of the Kespa players. There already was a barrier but all this gave was ammunition for both sides. Now why i like some of the Kespa players gameplay i cannot root for them simply cause of the annoying elephant crap going on. Oh how i wished TL would simply ban all that nonsense when HoTS comes out so all this crap is at least limited but we all know they won't
if you can't root for a player because there is crap surrounding him it's just laughable.
It's not him, its the obnoxious fans. Same reason i can't root for Stephano either. When said players stop winning the annoying ass fans stop.
On March 07 2013 23:15 fluidin wrote: EDIT: it just seems silly that most bashers of the elephant article do not take into context the timing of its conception and the significance it had then compared to what it has now
What significance that article had, except for pissing off a whole lot of people?
The article at the time just pissed people off. The article was a bit too early, it should come out right about now or maybe in a couple of months.
But it had it points and today the people laughing at that article isn't laughing nearly as much looking at EG-TL in Proleague and the rise of Kespa players breaking into Code S. The hype article putting EG-TL as favourite to win the Proleague is much more laughable in retrospective.
Totally underestimating Kespa teams talent, discipline and practice regime.
Give it 6 more months and I would be surprised if there are any but Kespa A-teamers completely dominating every league.
That article should never have been made, not even now. All it did was create a barrier between fans of the current ESF players and fans of the Kespa players. There already was a barrier but all this gave was ammunition for both sides. Now why i like some of the Kespa players gameplay i cannot root for them simply cause of the annoying elephant crap going on. Oh how i wished TL would simply ban all that nonsense when HoTS comes out so all this crap is at least limited but we all know they won't
if you can't root for a player because there is crap surrounding him it's just laughable.
It's not him, its the obnoxious fans. Same reason i can't root for Stephano either. When said players stop winning the annoying ass fans stop.
no fans are annoying if you're not a fan yourself, because their arguments are pretty stupid in 99% of the cases. When there are lots of them they're just more vocals.
I live in LA. Some of you guys sound worse than Laker fans this season. They've been playing better lately but no way can they compete with the likes of Miami and OKC. The hype surrounding EG-TL was similar to the Laker preseason hype.
On March 07 2013 23:15 fluidin wrote: EDIT: it just seems silly that most bashers of the elephant article do not take into context the timing of its conception and the significance it had then compared to what it has now
What significance that article had, except for pissing off a whole lot of people?
The article at the time just pissed people off. The article was a bit too early, it should come out right about now or maybe in a couple of months.
But it had it points and today the people laughing at that article isn't laughing nearly as much looking at EG-TL in Proleague and the rise of Kespa players breaking into Code S. The hype article putting EG-TL as favourite to win the Proleague is much more laughable in retrospective.
Totally underestimating Kespa teams talent, discipline and practice regime.
Give it 6 more months and I would be surprised if there are any but Kespa A-teamers completely dominating every league.
That article should never have been made, not even now. All it did was create a barrier between fans of the current ESF players and fans of the Kespa players. There already was a barrier but all this gave was ammunition for both sides. Now why i like some of the Kespa players gameplay i cannot root for them simply cause of the annoying elephant crap going on. Oh how i wished TL would simply ban all that nonsense when HoTS comes out so all this crap is at least limited but we all know they won't
if you can't root for a player because there is crap surrounding him it's just laughable.
It's not him, its the obnoxious fans. Same reason i can't root for Stephano either. When said players stop winning the annoying ass fans stop.
no fans are annoying if you're not a fan yourself, because their arguments are pretty stupid in 99% of the cases. When there are lots of them they're just more vocals.
Well excuse me if i don't want the live report thread change into google image search for elephant.
On March 07 2013 21:07 opterown wrote: that article was probably less incorrect than the one intrigue wrote about elephants~
Kespa already has 13 spots in Code S.
And the article said they would have pretty much every spot in Code S within 3-4 months.
considering what they have achieved now, the elephant article could very well have come true had Kespa switched right at the time of the article release, when the esf players haven't matured as much
EDIT: it just seems silly that most bashers of the elephant article do not take into context the timing of its conception and the significance it had then compared to what it has now
Nope, because the article was extremely clear, and it also did so by insulting a scene which had many players which were dear to the fans. No sir, Intrigue doesn't get the benefit of having his article reinterpretated for the current times, not when it had that horrible tone. Elitist to the extreme.
Add to that, the article was so severe, even in today's situation, it's STILL wrong, and very wrong.
On March 07 2013 21:07 opterown wrote: that article was probably less incorrect than the one intrigue wrote about elephants~
Kespa already has 13 spots in Code S.
And the article said they would have pretty much every spot in Code S within 3-4 months.
considering what they have achieved now, the elephant article could very well have come true had Kespa switched right at the time of the article release, when the esf players haven't matured as much
EDIT: it just seems silly that most bashers of the elephant article do not take into context the timing of its conception and the significance it had then compared to what it has now
No, the elephant article was stupid because Kespa WEREN'T switching. So basically the author just went on this SC2 pro bashing ramble which could never be proved nor disproved and it just created a divide between Kespa fans and eSF fans. Like you pointed out, since Kespa switched a year later, the SC2 landscape was different. So nothing can be proven.
And having Kespa teams actually pick up eSF players like PartinG for a significant salary shows that eSF players aren't innately less talented in RTS. Which was what the article was trying to say. Also, having Roro in the GSL finals when players like JD, Bisu, Stork are still struggling doesn't help the article either.
Ive said many times that Bisu wasnt as good during the end of Broodwar. Roro also elimnated Bisu in the last BW osl preliminaries. Elephant isnt entirely right either. Soulkey started to become S class level in BW during 2010, had he switched to SC2 during that time he would receive the same shit from BW elitists. MVP and MC might become the next Soulkey if they stayed in BW.
Not sure why all the writer bashing is going on, at the time of its writing the assessment was perfectly valid, the Korean teams where an unknown variable on the whole, we had seen sparks of brilliance from some of their representatives like Flash, herO and RorO, Effort, Reality etc, but on the whole we had zero knowledge regarding the rest of them.
On the other side HerO and Taeja where known variables, both with multiple championship wins, high finishers in Code S and good performances overall in other team leagues, and those are just the aces JYP is a strong PvP player and a good PvZ specialist, Stephano a very good ZvT player and a ZvP specialist, then you had JD that displayed sparks of brilliance in ZvZ like his old BW self, and suddenly you have a good strong core, the supporting cast was never that impressive but honestly if all went well they wouldn't even need to be sent out that often.
So yes, on paper the team is really good. I do believe however that the writers did hype up EG-TL too much, more caution should have been forewarned, because, as has been demonstrated in the past by the eSF teams, Korean work ethic and practice will make them champion contenders in the long run, the question was never of if, it was of when.
What we have learned from this experience is to never, ever under estimate the KeSPA teams and their practice methods. This is why I believe that a change in philosophy and direction is needed for EG-TL. The team just can't base all its hopes on Taeja and/or Hero, or all its hopes on HoTS, the team is basically going all-in with this move, what the team really needs is a new, better, more rigorous more efficient practice regime that, while won't bring immediate results, will work out in the long run, and they need ALL their lineup to perform, and I do mean ALL of them, each and every one of the members of EG-TL has to pull his weight.
Keep in mind the transition from WoL to HoTS is much less extreme then from BW to SC2, so at the rate KeSPA teams improve I'll give it one month at most for them to get a grip on HoTS, after which it will be the exact same situation we have now unless EG-TL changes something.
On March 07 2013 21:24 Serimek wrote: Only Stephano above 50%. Not something I was expecting at all before SPL started...
Its kinda hard to make a point with player stats. they dont all share the sample size. Huk has 2 losses but that doesnt mean he is the worst player in PL you need to have bigger sample size to determine whos the best
Bisu is 1:1 this season. 50% winrate This means that he would be a top EG-TL player.
I think EG-TL's problem is the very weak rooster line up, I'm not referring to player skill but the amount of players. KESPA teams are up to 20 players deep (including B teamers), they are able to train for very specific circumstances and have others dedicated to breaking down players and exploiting their weaknesses. EG-TL doesn't really have this network of practice regimes that KESPA teams have established over a decade. A single coach can only do so much for a team.
On March 07 2013 21:00 StarVe wrote: At least now we have an article to link to morons who believe TL writers were simply biased in the Round 1 preview and no one with a clear mind would have thought that EGTL would do well.
I think at one point you could swich two teams on the PL ranking and you would have the exact opposit of his preview ranking of the teams. That is incredibly inaccurate. And it is not only that, Fionn (and other TL writers as well) consistantly predicts that the kespa players will lose (and they are consistantly wrong).
I recomend that they watch some more of PL. I think it is at this point the most competitive league in the world.
I think you should don't know what you're talking about. I have watched every Proleague game this entire season (and most of the other writers also watch Proleague regularly); if I predict a KeSPA player to lose, it's because I think he's in a worse spot than his opponent(s), not because he's KeSPA because that's a bullshit reason.
It's the job of TL writers to hype the "home" team. What, you really thought they would make an accurate assessment and put EG-TL at the middle of the pack? No way, they're going to hype everything TL related. EG-TL so far has even exceeded my expectations for being bad though, I thought they would've been in the 4-6 range, not dead last. I suppose I should've remembered the lessons of GSTL.
On March 08 2013 00:47 TeslasPigeon wrote: I think EG-TL's problem is the very weak rooster line up, I'm not referring to player skill but the amount of players. KESPA teams are up to 20 players deep (including B teamers), they are able to train for very specific circumstances and have others dedicated to breaking down players and exploiting their weaknesses. EG-TL doesn't really have this network of practice regimes that KESPA teams have established over a decade. A single coach can only do so much for a team.
I don't think this is the case anymore. I read during the game switch that many of the b-teamers/trainees quit because they had devoted so much time and all for nothing when sc2 came. Some of them took the chance to make it with sc2 instead but those who didn't make it into a Proleague lineup quit too. The Starcraft divisons don't have as much cash anymore either when like every team have LoL teams now too.
Some of the teams probably have a few trainees but I don't think they have a full b-team grinding their asses off every day like they used to have. I think the avarage lineup is like 10-12 players, the same as EG-TL this season.
On March 07 2013 21:07 opterown wrote: that article was probably less incorrect than the one intrigue wrote about elephants~
Kespa already has 13 spots in Code S.
And the article said they would have pretty much every spot in Code S within 3-4 months.
considering what they have achieved now, the elephant article could very well have come true had Kespa switched right at the time of the article release, when the esf players haven't matured as much
EDIT: it just seems silly that most bashers of the elephant article do not take into context the timing of its conception and the significance it had then compared to what it has now
No, the elephant article was stupid because Kespa WEREN'T switching. So basically the author just went on this SC2 pro bashing ramble which could never be proved nor disproved and it just created a divide between Kespa fans and eSF fans. Like you pointed out, since Kespa switched a year later, the SC2 landscape was different. So nothing can be proven.
And having Kespa teams actually pick up eSF players like PartinG for a significant salary shows that eSF players aren't innately less talented in RTS. Which was what the article was trying to say. Also, having Roro in the GSL finals when players like JD, Bisu, Stork are still struggling doesn't help the article either.
i think we had this discussion before. i reiterate my stand that there are viable points for both sides, that while the kespa players could easily have taken over, that was not to say esf players are trash. I believe some of them are amazingly talented too, but a huge difference is the way kespa teams operate and train, which will give them a huge advantage. this was shown in proleague.
it is sad that both sides couldn't have just discussed the article amicably. granted, the tone of the elephant article didn't help a bit.
EDIT: alright, i'm probably understating the impact the article's tone had. it was pretty insulting, i agree
I didn't see anyone mention KeSpa's ridiculous map pool. Of course they're winning more, when EGTL are practicing on maps for GSL, MLG, etc. and the KeSpa players are practicing on maps like Arkanoid and CalDeum (on which maps EGTL has like a 5% winrate) Edit: And to further prove my point - when KT Rolster started practicing GSL maps, they dropped to 6 losses in a row in Proleague, while getting 2 players into Code S.
◆Will HotS be their Saving Grace? EG-TL's plan is to use round four, which will commence as HotS, to bring themselves back into the league. EG-TL hasn't officially confirmed this but there seems to be a plan to switch up the foreigners roster for round four. There is a very high chance that EG will add on to the EG-TL roster, Benjamin "DeMusliM" Baker and Greg "IdrA" Fields who has already been preparing for HotS for a long time.
Here is the most important question of all, can EG-TL's main players show a different form for Heart of the Swarm? If EG-TL is unable to perform up to expectations yet again for HotS, then there is a good chance that EG-TL will never be able to break out of last place. However, EG-TL had a head start in preparing for HotS compared to other Proleague teams so once again, there are high expectations for them.
EG-TL hasn't officially confirmed this but there seems to be a plan to switch up the foreigners roster for round four. There is a very high chance that EG will add on to the EG-TL roster, Benjamin "DeMusliM" Baker and Greg "IdrA" Fields who has already been preparing for HotS for a long time.
I don't know about Demuslim, but Idra is not going to be of any help. His HotS play is mediocre at best, and his mentality is still subpar. Unfortunately, the arrival of HotS probably won't help EGTL too much. They need to fix up the internal issues within the team, not hope for external changes.
But not all hope is lost. They are only 7-14, and the 2nd place team is 11-10 IIRC, so while their map differential is probably beyond repair, if a miracle turnaround happens, EGTL may still make the playoffs. Imagine that.
On March 08 2013 01:28 smogg wrote: I didn't see anyone mention KeSpa's ridiculous map pool. Of course they're winning more, when EGTL are practicing on maps for GSL, MLG, etc. and the KeSpa players are practicing on maps like Arkanoid and CalDeum (on which maps EGTL has like a 5% winrate) Edit: And to further prove my point - when KT Rolster started practicing GSL maps, they dropped to 6 losses in a row in Proleague, while getting 2 players into Code S.
Doubt they were practicing for GSL over PL.
and it's not like they win so many matches on non KeSPA maps.
On March 08 2013 01:28 smogg wrote: I didn't see anyone mention KeSpa's ridiculous map pool. Of course they're winning more, when EGTL are practicing on maps for GSL, MLG, etc. and the KeSpa players are practicing on maps like Arkanoid and CalDeum (on which maps EGTL has like a 5% winrate) Edit: And to further prove my point - when KT Rolster started practicing GSL maps, they dropped to 6 losses in a row in Proleague, while getting 2 players into Code S.
When did KT start practicing? Do you have a source for that? - it would be interesting to know, because I have no idea how highly the kespa teams value GSL...
As a fan of the teams, I've honestly stopped watching their PL performances. They're beyond sub-par and almost look like they're just wasting the other player's time. I would love nothing more than to see a foreign collab doing well in SPL, but that's clearly not happening (note: Adding Idra and Demuslim isn't going to do anything at all, it may even make it worse if they play games instead of their korean roster).
I can't believe many really believed that huk, puma or I don't know, Zenio, would do well. Their performance is within the boundaries of "expected". Stephano is above 50%, which is ok. Can't expect him to win it all in a tournament format, where hardcore specific preparation is key. Hero might feel underperforming and Taeja definitely, but injuries are a bitch. The only real disappointment would be Thorzain, as this format fits his style and I'd have thought he will win at least 50% of his games. This is a team league and you cannot be on par with other teams, if you only have a very select few actual match-winning players.
On March 08 2013 02:22 Kuni wrote: I can't believe many really believed that huk, puma or I don't know, Zenio, would do well. Their performance is within the boundaries of "expected". Stephano is above 50%, which is ok. Can't expect him to win it all in a tournament format, where hardcore specific preparation is key. Hero might feel underperforming and Taeja definitely, but injuries are a bitch. The only real disappointment would be Thorzain, as this format fits his style and I'd have thought he will win at least 50% of his games. This is a team league and you cannot be on par with other teams, if you only have a very select few actual match-winning players.
On March 08 2013 02:22 Kuni wrote: I can't believe many really believed that huk, puma or I don't know, Zenio, would do well. Their performance is within the boundaries of "expected". Stephano is above 50%, which is ok. Can't expect him to win it all in a tournament format, where hardcore specific preparation is key. Hero might feel underperforming and Taeja definitely, but injuries are a bitch. The only real disappointment would be Thorzain, as this format fits his style and I'd have thought he will win at least 50% of his games. This is a team league and you cannot be on par with other teams, if you only have a very select few actual match-winning players.
You miss the biggest dissapointment
Lee Jae Dong
So sad
Bad people to practice with = bad results? I know Puma used to be the epic training partner, but the key is USED to be.
On March 08 2013 02:22 Kuni wrote: I can't believe many really believed that huk, puma or I don't know, Zenio, would do well. Their performance is within the boundaries of "expected". Stephano is above 50%, which is ok. Can't expect him to win it all in a tournament format, where hardcore specific preparation is key. Hero might feel underperforming and Taeja definitely, but injuries are a bitch. The only real disappointment would be Thorzain, as this format fits his style and I'd have thought he will win at least 50% of his games. This is a team league and you cannot be on par with other teams, if you only have a very select few actual match-winning players.
You miss the biggest dissapointment
Lee Jae Dong
So sad
Bad people to practice with = bad results? I know Puma used to be the epic training partner, but the key is USED to be.
"epic training partner" why? cause he practiced with flash?
As far as Kespa players go, Flash has said that KT puts a higher priority on proleague but that he has the same priority on both PL and GSL as far as he's concerned and that he practices for both.
On March 08 2013 02:22 Kuni wrote: I can't believe many really believed that huk, puma or I don't know, Zenio, would do well. Their performance is within the boundaries of "expected". Stephano is above 50%, which is ok. Can't expect him to win it all in a tournament format, where hardcore specific preparation is key. Hero might feel underperforming and Taeja definitely, but injuries are a bitch. The only real disappointment would be Thorzain, as this format fits his style and I'd have thought he will win at least 50% of his games. This is a team league and you cannot be on par with other teams, if you only have a very select few actual match-winning players.
You miss the biggest dissapointment
Lee Jae Dong
So sad
Bad people to practice with = bad results? I know Puma used to be the epic training partner, but the key is USED to be.
"epic training partner" why? cause he practiced with flash?
I'm fairly sure they wouldn't pick some scrub to practice with Flash. He was clearly chosen for that role for a reason. Sometimes, best player =/= best training partner.
On March 08 2013 02:22 Kuni wrote: I can't believe many really believed that huk, puma or I don't know, Zenio, would do well. Their performance is within the boundaries of "expected". Stephano is above 50%, which is ok. Can't expect him to win it all in a tournament format, where hardcore specific preparation is key. Hero might feel underperforming and Taeja definitely, but injuries are a bitch. The only real disappointment would be Thorzain, as this format fits his style and I'd have thought he will win at least 50% of his games. This is a team league and you cannot be on par with other teams, if you only have a very select few actual match-winning players.
You miss the biggest dissapointment
Lee Jae Dong
So sad
Bad people to practice with = bad results? I know Puma used to be the epic training partner, but the key is USED to be.
Didn't seem to hinder him much back during his BW days on Hwaseung.
On March 08 2013 02:22 Kuni wrote: I can't believe many really believed that huk, puma or I don't know, Zenio, would do well. Their performance is within the boundaries of "expected". Stephano is above 50%, which is ok. Can't expect him to win it all in a tournament format, where hardcore specific preparation is key. Hero might feel underperforming and Taeja definitely, but injuries are a bitch. The only real disappointment would be Thorzain, as this format fits his style and I'd have thought he will win at least 50% of his games. This is a team league and you cannot be on par with other teams, if you only have a very select few actual match-winning players.
You miss the biggest dissapointment
Lee Jae Dong
So sad
Bad people to practice with = bad results? I know Puma used to be the epic training partner, but the key is USED to be.
"epic training partner" why? cause he practiced with flash?
I think Artosis mentioned that Puma was Flash's requested practice partner. Flash apparently wanted to train with him. But while he was good in practice, when the pressure came on during broadcasted matches, tournaments, etc. his abilities never seemed to shine due to nerves. But this was years ago, in a different game.
On March 08 2013 02:22 Kuni wrote: I can't believe many really believed that huk, puma or I don't know, Zenio, would do well. Their performance is within the boundaries of "expected". Stephano is above 50%, which is ok. Can't expect him to win it all in a tournament format, where hardcore specific preparation is key. Hero might feel underperforming and Taeja definitely, but injuries are a bitch. The only real disappointment would be Thorzain, as this format fits his style and I'd have thought he will win at least 50% of his games. This is a team league and you cannot be on par with other teams, if you only have a very select few actual match-winning players.
You miss the biggest dissapointment
Lee Jae Dong
So sad
Bad people to practice with = bad results? I know Puma used to be the epic training partner, but the key is USED to be.
"epic training partner" why? cause he practiced with flash?
I think Artosis mentioned that Puma was Flash's requested practice partner. Flash apparently wanted to train with him. But while he was good in practice, when the pressure came on during broadcasted matches, tournaments, etc. his abilities never seemed to shine due to nerves. But this was years ago, in a different game.
guess there are a million "epic" practice partners out there.
but yeah what i forgot 2 say. the stars of each team don't practice that much with each other. they practice with the so called "bad players". so that shouldnt affect jaedong.
Dammit would have loved this to be a more "kick them while they are down" article. Now it's much more reasonable, not even calling it a fiasco is nice..
And the hype that surrounds around Idra and his performance in HOTS.. HAHAH! I love you people <3
On March 08 2013 02:22 Kuni wrote: I can't believe many really believed that huk, puma or I don't know, Zenio, would do well. Their performance is within the boundaries of "expected". Stephano is above 50%, which is ok. Can't expect him to win it all in a tournament format, where hardcore specific preparation is key. Hero might feel underperforming and Taeja definitely, but injuries are a bitch. The only real disappointment would be Thorzain, as this format fits his style and I'd have thought he will win at least 50% of his games. This is a team league and you cannot be on par with other teams, if you only have a very select few actual match-winning players.
You miss the biggest dissapointment
Lee Jae Dong
So sad
Bad people to practice with = bad results? I know Puma used to be the epic training partner, but the key is USED to be.
I don’t think it is practice as much as focus and grinding down games for a specific match up, on a specific map, against a specific player. From what I have seen as a first time viewer of Proleague, many of the players on the Kespa teams are solely focused on Prologue and their specific match up. That combined with the years of experience that the teams have with this format, it is no surprise to me at all that EG-TL is going to have a rough first outing. They are in the first stage of the trial and error system where they figure out how to make their Proleague run work.
And people who are surprised that players like Thorzain had a rough time shouldn’t be. There is nothing like Proleague in any other part of the world and it is designed in a format that favors overwhelming preparation and experience. Being in a new country, where you don’t speak the language already makes that process an uphill battle(ie, doing simple things, like buying a card to send to your family is a chore without help) and its going to detract from their ability to double down and focus. Having Non-Koreans do well in Korean leagues quickly and adjust to the culture shock is something no team has mastered yet. It seems minor, but being in a place no one understands you can be terrifying, or at least a ton of effort.
I am interested in see how the teams grows and what they come up with to improve their performance. Anyone who throught that EG-TL was going to come in and take 3rd or 4th place on their first outing was set up for disappointment. But I am a Red Soxs fan, so I am used to saying “We’ll get them next year”.
Im rapidly losing interest in the pro scene, because my favorite "foreign" teams are now dominated by koreans. That picture had exactly one person who isnt korean I used to really like EG for guys like Idra, incontrol, demuslim, etc. but now chearing for them means im really just cheering for the koreans on the squad. Im becoming a bigger and bigger supporter of ROOT as I go.
On March 08 2013 02:58 Aveng3r wrote: Im rapidly losing interest in the pro scene, because my favorite "foreign" teams are now dominated by koreans. That picture had exactly one person who isnt korean I used to really like EG for guys like Idra, incontrol, demuslim, etc. but now chearing for them means im really just cheering for the koreans on the squad. Im becoming a bigger and bigger supporter of ROOT as I go.
Fail xD
I've already pretty much stopped watching proleague. And it has very little to do with eg-tl doing poorly, I just can't stand the casters I'm sorry to say. Im not generally picky but... yeah. Don't know what do say without feeling mean really
I do think thorzain and demuslim would be a nice asset for their sorely lacking terran lineup. Idra? They already have 3 zergs who all are better than him. I think not.
On March 08 2013 02:58 Aveng3r wrote: Im rapidly losing interest in the pro scene, because my favorite "foreign" teams are now dominated by koreans. That picture had exactly one person who isnt korean I used to really like EG for guys like Idra, incontrol, demuslim, etc. but now chearing for them means im really just cheering for the koreans on the squad. Im becoming a bigger and bigger supporter of ROOT as I go.
Thorzain being 1-4 isn't a 25% winratio I think ? sory if that was already mentioned.
I personally expected them to be a bit better, but with the new maps that got introduced I knew round 3 would end up bad and HotS will only play in their hands if the map pool changes into a more standard one, whatever HotS standard will be.
On March 08 2013 02:58 Aveng3r wrote: Im rapidly losing interest in the pro scene, because my favorite "foreign" teams are now dominated by koreans. That picture had exactly one person who isnt korean I used to really like EG for guys like Idra, incontrol, demuslim, etc. but now chearing for them means im really just cheering for the koreans on the squad. Im becoming a bigger and bigger supporter of ROOT as I go.
But the best players on ROOT are Korean aswell.
It's hard not to use koreans in a foreign team these days. Only players like stephano and naniwa (if he can get his shit sorted) and perhaps one or two others seem to really be code s level when they're at their best.
I don't really see what the problem is. I think EGTL is doing a fantastic job of replacing Air Force ACE ( no offense ).
They don't have great results but many fans nevertheless. Also hots might change that. Oh and :
On March 08 2013 02:58 Aveng3r wrote: Im rapidly losing interest in the pro scene, because my favorite "foreign" teams are now dominated by koreans. That picture had exactly one person who isnt korean I used to really like EG for guys like Idra, incontrol, demuslim, etc. but now chearing for them means im really just cheering for the koreans on the squad. Im becoming a bigger and bigger supporter of ROOT as I go.
yeah i get you. edit : there's thorzain and stephano so that's two actually.
EG-TL is doing really poorly, but it IS just one round. Think about Samsung Khan. They were something like 1-6 after round 1, right? The same performance as EG-TL in round 3, but they bounced back pretty well. It looks really grim, but if you look at their initial performances (putting them in 4th place I believe, a playoff spot), and compare their R3 to Khan's R1, it's certainly possible to come back.
Single round performances are definitely indicators of performance, but there's a LOT of room for change with a yearlong league like SPL.
On March 08 2013 03:01 FeyFey wrote: Thorzain being 1-4 isn't a 25% winratio I think ? sory if that was already mentioned.
I personally expected them to be a bit better, but with the new maps that got introduced I knew round 3 would end up bad and HotS will only play in their hands if the map pool changes into a more standard one, whatever HotS standard will be.
1-4 means he played 5 games, of which he won one. so his winration is 20%.
As much as Jaedong gets praise from Korean and foreign fans for being Jaedong, he's been a complete liability on the team. Although between Revival who admittedly is pulling his weight and Zenio, I can see why they have to rely on Jaedong for Zerg designated matches (in the earlier rounds).
On March 08 2013 03:34 Jacmert wrote: Speaking of lack of high level Terrans to play, the OP forgot to mention Liquid'Sea retiring from SC2 as a huge setback go EG-TL
I don't want to insult Sea's BW results or his fans, but nothing in Sea's SC2 results would suggest that he would've made any difference if he had stayed in their lineup. I'm looking forward to HotS, maybe EG-TL can recover a little, though I doubt that they will be in reach of the playoffs this season unfortauntely
Probably the same people that demanded an apology from Choya for winning
can you explain the story please
I believe that was me you quoted. The story is apparently during the GSTL preseason Korean Netizens were angry at the FXO players for all inning Prime in a couple of the games to get wins instead of showing off HoTS units and Choya ended up apologizing for his team winning that way. Khaldor was pretty upset about it.
oh yeah btw my comment on the first page about kespa having 13 players in code s already was just a joke with opterown I know it's not what the article was saying
On March 08 2013 03:34 Jacmert wrote: Speaking of lack of high level Terrans to play, the OP forgot to mention Liquid'Sea retiring from SC2 as a huge setback go EG-TL
I don't want to insult Sea's BW results or his fans, but nothing in Sea's SC2 results would suggest that he would've made any difference if he had stayed in their lineup. I'm looking forward to HotS, maybe EG-TL can recover a little, though I doubt that they will be in reach of the playoffs this season unfortauntely
You forget Sea's credentials as a veteran of Proleague. Contrast this with the current EG-TL lineup: besides Jaedong and PuMa, the rest of the players on EG-TL are completely inexperienced with Proleague. Yes, they have a lot of experience in individual competitions and online team leagues/GSTL in the past 2 years, but they're in a league where a lot of players have been doing this for much much longer.
They have to not only learn how to deal with the specific pressure of competing on a televised and prestigious league, but also how to prepare, train, plan for a SINGLE game or thousands of different scenarios for an All Kill formats. And do it again and again and again for months.
Should I do this all in this game? How would that affect the other team's mentality towards my other teammates matches. If I do THIS build today, would I be able to use it the next for the other team? Would they expect that? Would they not expect that?
Almost all of these players have been training for best of multi-game series in either marathon tournaments or BO3-BO5-BO7 individual matches in GSL. Having players who can be the hyung/older brother to the other teammates and lend their knowledge and know-how is a huge asset to have.
I can't say that I believed they would be a championship contender team... KesPa players have been amazing and have all but closed the gap between themselves and the eSF players within the last year. To expect a team composed of SC2 not-so-greats plus Jaedong to succeed in what used to be the upper echelon of Korean Broodwar leagues is actually a bit daft.
Looking at players like JYP, Hero, Zenio, Revival and Taeja, we see that their results have been all over the place (barring Zenio, who practically fell of the face of the Earth). Jaedong wasn't exactly a super dominant SC2 Zerg at the time EG-TL picked him up. He was kind of living in the shadow of RoRo and SoulKey in terms of KesPa Zergs afaic. The injury to Taeja basically rendered the team impotent, eliminating the Terran option. Thorzain's a nice guy but he's still a foreign Terran in Korea. The question becomes "how does a team with no ace and no Terrans stand a chance?" Replacing Taeja seems to be the impossible task that EG-TL has to address this season. A championship is just a fool's hope at this point.
Hopefully, by next season, EG-TL does some roster cleanup of this A-team. There are way too many weak links in their structure and far too much has been resting on Taeja (to the point where he's breaking down physically). It's possible that the answer lies in foreign players, but improbable. Good Luck next season. This season's screwed.
On March 08 2013 03:34 Jacmert wrote: Speaking of lack of high level Terrans to play, the OP forgot to mention Liquid'Sea retiring from SC2 as a huge setback go EG-TL
I don't want to insult Sea's BW results or his fans, but nothing in Sea's SC2 results would suggest that he would've made any difference if he had stayed in their lineup. I'm looking forward to HotS, maybe EG-TL can recover a little, though I doubt that they will be in reach of the playoffs this season unfortauntely
You forget Sea's credentials as a veteran of Proleague. Contrast this with the current EG-TL lineup: besides Jaedong and PuMa, the rest of the players on EG-TL are completely inexperienced with Proleague. Yes, they have a lot of experience in individual competitions and online team leagues/GSTL in the past 2 years, but they're in a league where a lot of players have been doing this for much much longer.
They have to not only learn how to deal with the specific pressure of competing on a televised and prestigious league, but also how to prepare, train, plan for a SINGLE game or thousands of different scenarios for an All Kill formats. And do it again and again and again for months.
Should I do this all in this game? How would that affect the other team's mentality towards my other teammates matches. If I do THIS build today, would I be able to use it the next for the other team? Would they expect that? Would they not expect that?
Almost all of these players have been training for best of multi-game series in either marathon tournaments or BO3-BO5-BO7 individual matches in GSL. Having players who can be the hyung/older brother to the other teammates and lend their knowledge and know-how is a huge asset to have.
That's really good points, he probably would be very helpful that way. Shouldn't Jaedong also be able to fill that role of hyung/mentor as well?
I am pretty sure Jaedong will be one of the best in some time. Just watching his stream you can see his mechanics are well above anyone in SC2 pro scene imo.
On March 08 2013 03:34 Jacmert wrote: Speaking of lack of high level Terrans to play, the OP forgot to mention Liquid'Sea retiring from SC2 as a huge setback go EG-TL
I don't want to insult Sea's BW results or his fans, but nothing in Sea's SC2 results would suggest that he would've made any difference if he had stayed in their lineup. I'm looking forward to HotS, maybe EG-TL can recover a little, though I doubt that they will be in reach of the playoffs this season unfortauntely
You forget Sea's credentials as a veteran of Proleague. Contrast this with the current EG-TL lineup: besides Jaedong and PuMa, the rest of the players on EG-TL are completely inexperienced with Proleague. Yes, they have a lot of experience in individual competitions and online team leagues/GSTL in the past 2 years, but they're in a league where a lot of players have been doing this for much much longer.
They have to not only learn how to deal with the specific pressure of competing on a televised and prestigious league, but also how to prepare, train, plan for a SINGLE game or thousands of different scenarios for an All Kill formats. And do it again and again and again for months.
Should I do this all in this game? How would that affect the other team's mentality towards my other teammates matches. If I do THIS build today, would I be able to use it the next for the other team? Would they expect that? Would they not expect that?
Almost all of these players have been training for best of multi-game series in either marathon tournaments or BO3-BO5-BO7 individual matches in GSL. Having players who can be the hyung/older brother to the other teammates and lend their knowledge and know-how is a huge asset to have.
That's really good points, he probably would be very helpful that way. Shouldn't Jaedong also be able to fill that role of hyung/mentor as well?
He's only one man. A very capable man but still only one man.
On March 08 2013 05:39 scudst0rm wrote: Idra to SPL? What happens if you don't GG in proleague?
I imagine you'd receive a warning the first time it happens; if it were to happen a second KeSPA would be pretty pissed. But I don't think Idra not GGing in SPL is anything to worry about - as far as I know he holds KeSPA pros in very high esteem.
On March 08 2013 03:34 Jacmert wrote: Speaking of lack of high level Terrans to play, the OP forgot to mention Liquid'Sea retiring from SC2 as a huge setback go EG-TL
I don't want to insult Sea's BW results or his fans, but nothing in Sea's SC2 results would suggest that he would've made any difference if he had stayed in their lineup. I'm looking forward to HotS, maybe EG-TL can recover a little, though I doubt that they will be in reach of the playoffs this season unfortauntely
You forget Sea's credentials as a veteran of Proleague. Contrast this with the current EG-TL lineup: besides Jaedong and PuMa, the rest of the players on EG-TL are completely inexperienced with Proleague. Yes, they have a lot of experience in individual competitions and online team leagues/GSTL in the past 2 years, but they're in a league where a lot of players have been doing this for much much longer.
They have to not only learn how to deal with the specific pressure of competing on a televised and prestigious league, but also how to prepare, train, plan for a SINGLE game or thousands of different scenarios for an All Kill formats. And do it again and again and again for months.
Should I do this all in this game? How would that affect the other team's mentality towards my other teammates matches. If I do THIS build today, would I be able to use it the next for the other team? Would they expect that? Would they not expect that?
Almost all of these players have been training for best of multi-game series in either marathon tournaments or BO3-BO5-BO7 individual matches in GSL. Having players who can be the hyung/older brother to the other teammates and lend their knowledge and know-how is a huge asset to have.
That's really good points, he probably would be very helpful that way. Shouldn't Jaedong also be able to fill that role of hyung/mentor as well?
He's only one man. A very capable man but still only one man.
By the look of our team tags, we understand that very well
Lol, I love how they say maybe by switchign uip the foreigners they can win- ya right, Idra and demuslim can barely compete at an NA level- nobody in their right mind is expecting them to win even a single game in proleague.
On March 08 2013 05:58 mrRoflpwn wrote: Lol, I love how they say maybe by switchign uip the foreigners they can win- ya right, Idra and demuslim can barely compete at an NA level- nobody in their right mind is expecting them to win even a single game in proleague.
Although DeMusliM is competent I wholeheartedly agree that he's going to have a really difficult time in Proleague considering ThorZain's results.
IdrA on the other hand you can never underestimate. He's been playing HOTS for a very very very long time now and will probably have the most understanding of the game in the first rounds. That and never forget that he is IdrA. The guy Koreans respect, the guy who's been on a CJ and worn their uniform, who knows how important Proleague is. He is always relevant and always an asset not dead weight.
On March 08 2013 05:58 mrRoflpwn wrote: Lol, I love how they say maybe by switchign uip the foreigners they can win- ya right, Idra and demuslim can barely compete at an NA level- nobody in their right mind is expecting them to win even a single game in proleague.
Although DeMusliM is competent I wholeheartedly agree that he's going to have a really difficult time in Proleague considering ThorZain's results.
IdrA on the other hand you can never underestimate. He's been playing HOTS for a very very very long time now and will probably have the most understanding of the game in the first rounds. That and never forget that he is IdrA. The guy Koreans respect, the guy who's been on a CJ and worn their uniform, who knows how important Proleague is. He is always relevant and always an asset not dead weight.
Hmm no, as much as i love idra for the hilarity he brings to the scene, if you watch him stream his play is very uninspiring; he always seems to be a few months behind everyone else in the metagame and i think he's have trouble in hots as he'll have to wait for korean zergs to figure out what to do and then copy them.
On March 08 2013 05:58 mrRoflpwn wrote: Lol, I love how they say maybe by switchign uip the foreigners they can win- ya right, Idra and demuslim can barely compete at an NA level- nobody in their right mind is expecting them to win even a single game in proleague.
Although DeMusliM is competent I wholeheartedly agree that he's going to have a really difficult time in Proleague considering ThorZain's results.
IdrA on the other hand you can never underestimate. He's been playing HOTS for a very very very long time now and will probably have the most understanding of the game in the first rounds. That and never forget that he is IdrA. The guy Koreans respect, the guy who's been on a CJ and worn their uniform, who knows how important Proleague is. He is always relevant and always an asset not dead weight.
Hmm no, as much as i love idra for the hilarity he brings to the scene, if you watch him stream his play is very uninspiring; he always seems to be a few months behind everyone else in the metagame and i think he's have trouble in hots as he'll have to wait for korean zergs to figure out what to do and then copy them.
Pretty much this. Nothing to learn from him when he is streaming. He is winning against NA Scrubs and getting owned by IIIIIIIIIIII.
Look at how quickly the Kespa pros got good at SC2 in general. Like within 6 months they came from a totally different game to dominating established pro with 2-3 years experience. Why do people think an expansion with a few new rules here and there is going to change anything? Kespa players will continue to dominate and ESF players will slowly fall by the wayside to these superior gamers. Not that I want this to happen of course but in reality I honestly think that in a year's time we will be saying..."Taeja, who?"
On March 08 2013 05:58 mrRoflpwn wrote: Lol, I love how they say maybe by switchign uip the foreigners they can win- ya right, Idra and demuslim can barely compete at an NA level- nobody in their right mind is expecting them to win even a single game in proleague.
Although DeMusliM is competent I wholeheartedly agree that he's going to have a really difficult time in Proleague considering ThorZain's results.
IdrA on the other hand you can never underestimate. He's been playing HOTS for a very very very long time now and will probably have the most understanding of the game in the first rounds. That and never forget that he is IdrA. The guy Koreans respect, the guy who's been on a CJ and worn their uniform, who knows how important Proleague is. He is always relevant and always an asset not dead weight.
Hmm no, as much as i love idra for the hilarity he brings to the scene, if you watch him stream his play is very uninspiring; he always seems to be a few months behind everyone else in the metagame and i think he's have trouble in hots as he'll have to wait for korean zergs to figure out what to do and then copy them.
Idra has all but come out as said that he only messes around when he streams. Like Grubby, he has streaming builds that he does and are pretty neutral as to his play style. But you are right that he has trouble being creative and is not good at inventing builds. Still I would think the Proleague format would be suit him well, since it is all about that one game.
On March 08 2013 06:15 Neptuneajax wrote: Look at how quickly the Kespa pros got good at SC2 in general. Like within 6 months they came from a totally different game to dominating established pro with 2-3 years experience. Why do people think an expansion with a few new rules here and there is going to change anything? Kespa players will continue to dominate and ESF players will slowly fall by the wayside to these superior gamers. Not that I want this to happen of course but in reality I honestly think that in a year's time we will be saying..."Taeja, who?"
You know that either 6months or 2-3years are basically the same right? Or do the Kespa players have to play all the way back to 5rax reaper on jungle basin and work their way up to the current state of the game?
On March 08 2013 02:58 Aveng3r wrote: Im rapidly losing interest in the pro scene, because my favorite "foreign" teams are now dominated by koreans. That picture had exactly one person who isnt korean I used to really like EG for guys like Idra, incontrol, demuslim, etc. but now chearing for them means im really just cheering for the koreans on the squad. Im becoming a bigger and bigger supporter of ROOT as I go.
But the best players on ROOT are Korean aswell.
Yeah, but they arent dominated by Koreans the way EG and TL sometimes seem to be
On March 08 2013 03:30 Marti wrote: I don't really see what the problem is. I think EGTL is doing a fantastic job of replacing Air Force ACE ( no offense ).
On March 08 2013 02:58 Aveng3r wrote: Im rapidly losing interest in the pro scene, because my favorite "foreign" teams are now dominated by koreans. That picture had exactly one person who isnt korean I used to really like EG for guys like Idra, incontrol, demuslim, etc. but now chearing for them means im really just cheering for the koreans on the squad. Im becoming a bigger and bigger supporter of ROOT as I go.
yeah i get you. edit : there's thorzain and stephano so that's two actually.
Yeah I couldnt tell that Thorzain was himself at first glance lol
On March 08 2013 05:39 scudst0rm wrote: Idra to SPL? What happens if you don't GG in proleague?
I imagine you'd receive a warning the first time it happens; if it were to happen a second KeSPA would be pretty pissed. But I don't think Idra not GGing in SPL is anything to worry about - as far as I know he holds KeSPA pros in very high esteem.
Some of them. But if he lost to, like, Shine... yeah.
I am hoping HOTS turns it around and in my mind I expect them to but I honestly, I don't even care if they win out at this point. I just want them to be competitive.
Probably the same people that demanded an apology from Choya for winning
can you explain the story please
I believe that was me you quoted. The story is apparently during the GSTL preseason Korean Netizens were angry at the FXO players for all inning Prime in a couple of the games to get wins instead of showing off HoTS units and Choya ended up apologizing for his team winning that way. Khaldor was pretty upset about it.
oh yeah btw my comment on the first page about kespa having 13 players in code s already was just a joke with opterown I know it's not what the article was saying
Questions here. I didn't know Korean netizens were angry at the outcome, but to put another spin on it, even when this is indeed the preseason for GSTL HOTS, why such anger towards the all-ins?
I've seen the arguments for "you have to earn your right to use X or Y unit", so I'm a little confused on the reasoning behind the anger? Also - isn't FXO a team which is dangerous because you just never know what to expect? They might be doing a standard macro game, or they might be sneaking a proxy...does that not make for more dangerous, risky games?
Was Khaldor upset due to the controversy, or was he upset because of how the games turned out?
Probably the same people that demanded an apology from Choya for winning
can you explain the story please
I believe that was me you quoted. The story is apparently during the GSTL preseason Korean Netizens were angry at the FXO players for all inning Prime in a couple of the games to get wins instead of showing off HoTS units and Choya ended up apologizing for his team winning that way. Khaldor was pretty upset about it.
oh yeah btw my comment on the first page about kespa having 13 players in code s already was just a joke with opterown I know it's not what the article was saying
Questions here. I didn't know Korean netizens were angry at the outcome, but to put another spin on it, even when this is indeed the preseason for GSTL HOTS, why such anger towards the all-ins?
I've seen the arguments for "you have to earn your right to use X or Y unit", so I'm a little confused on the reasoning behind the anger? Also - isn't FXO a team which is dangerous because you just never know what to expect? They might be doing a standard macro game, or they might be sneaking a proxy...does that not make for more dangerous, risky games?
Was Khaldor upset due to the controversy, or was he upset because of how the games turned out?
Because it's not a serious team league, and it was a chance for the fans to see how great HOTS could be before release. Instead FXO ruined the fun by "being try hards".
On March 08 2013 05:25 InsidiA wrote: JYP's stats. No one expected that tbf.
Except anyone who actually looked at them before mindlessly and idiotically bashing a player that hasas always had one of the best records on the team.
On March 08 2013 02:58 Aveng3r wrote: Im rapidly losing interest in the pro scene, because my favorite "foreign" teams are now dominated by koreans. That picture had exactly one person who isnt korean I used to really like EG for guys like Idra, incontrol, demuslim, etc. but now chearing for them means im really just cheering for the koreans on the squad. Im becoming a bigger and bigger supporter of ROOT as I go.
But the best players on ROOT are Korean aswell.
Yeah, but they arent dominated by Koreans the way EG and TL sometimes seem to be
Because you haven't seen them play more than one game in a team league from what I can recall.
Over time, Sage will probably have the best results by far, like Taeja for TL.
Probably the same people that demanded an apology from Choya for winning
can you explain the story please
I believe that was me you quoted. The story is apparently during the GSTL preseason Korean Netizens were angry at the FXO players for all inning Prime in a couple of the games to get wins instead of showing off HoTS units and Choya ended up apologizing for his team winning that way. Khaldor was pretty upset about it.
oh yeah btw my comment on the first page about kespa having 13 players in code s already was just a joke with opterown I know it's not what the article was saying
Questions here. I didn't know Korean netizens were angry at the outcome, but to put another spin on it, even when this is indeed the preseason for GSTL HOTS, why such anger towards the all-ins?
I've seen the arguments for "you have to earn your right to use X or Y unit", so I'm a little confused on the reasoning behind the anger? Also - isn't FXO a team which is dangerous because you just never know what to expect? They might be doing a standard macro game, or they might be sneaking a proxy...does that not make for more dangerous, risky games?
Was Khaldor upset due to the controversy, or was he upset because of how the games turned out?
Because it's not a serious team league, and it was a chance for the fans to see how great HOTS could be before release. Instead FXO ruined the fun by "being try hards".
On March 08 2013 08:24 Sumahi wrote: My poor Fantasy PL team. It was filled with EG-TL players who have seriously underperformed. I'm afraid to check on its progress.
You missed two rounds already and got around #4300 out of 5800 players in the first one.
On March 07 2013 21:08 revy wrote: People are so whiny. EGTL is doing better than Ace at least! Though Ace did steadily improve over the years.
Comparing them to a team that only contained players past their prime who had very limited practice hours isn't exactly the greatest compliment you could give them.
On March 08 2013 08:24 Sumahi wrote: My poor Fantasy PL team. It was filled with EG-TL players who have seriously underperformed. I'm afraid to check on its progress.
You missed two rounds already and got around #4300 out of 5800 players in the first one.
On March 08 2013 05:58 mrRoflpwn wrote: Lol, I love how they say maybe by switchign uip the foreigners they can win- ya right, Idra and demuslim can barely compete at an NA level- nobody in their right mind is expecting them to win even a single game in proleague.
Although DeMusliM is competent I wholeheartedly agree that he's going to have a really difficult time in Proleague considering ThorZain's results.
IdrA on the other hand you can never underestimate. He's been playing HOTS for a very very very long time now and will probably have the most understanding of the game in the first rounds. That and never forget that he is IdrA. The guy Koreans respect, the guy who's been on a CJ and worn their uniform, who knows how important Proleague is. He is always relevant and always an asset not dead weight.
Hmm no, as much as i love idra for the hilarity he brings to the scene, if you watch him stream his play is very uninspiring; he always seems to be a few months behind everyone else in the metagame and i think he's have trouble in hots as he'll have to wait for korean zergs to figure out what to do and then copy them.
Idra has all but come out as said that he only messes around when he streams. Like Grubby, he has streaming builds that he does and are pretty neutral as to his play style. But you are right that he has trouble being creative and is not good at inventing builds. Still I would think the Proleague format would be suit him well, since it is all about that one game.
The style might suit him better but the skill isn't there. He might not take streaming seriously but I have to imagine he took his match against minigun seriously considering what was on the line and he looked utterly awful in that series against a player who is definitely not proleague caliber.
On March 08 2013 05:58 mrRoflpwn wrote: Lol, I love how they say maybe by switchign uip the foreigners they can win- ya right, Idra and demuslim can barely compete at an NA level- nobody in their right mind is expecting them to win even a single game in proleague.
Although DeMusliM is competent I wholeheartedly agree that he's going to have a really difficult time in Proleague considering ThorZain's results.
IdrA on the other hand you can never underestimate. He's been playing HOTS for a very very very long time now and will probably have the most understanding of the game in the first rounds. That and never forget that he is IdrA. The guy Koreans respect, the guy who's been on a CJ and worn their uniform, who knows how important Proleague is. He is always relevant and always an asset not dead weight.
Hmm no, as much as i love idra for the hilarity he brings to the scene, if you watch him stream his play is very uninspiring; he always seems to be a few months behind everyone else in the metagame and i think he's have trouble in hots as he'll have to wait for korean zergs to figure out what to do and then copy them.
Idra has all but come out as said that he only messes around when he streams. Like Grubby, he has streaming builds that he does and are pretty neutral as to his play style. But you are right that he has trouble being creative and is not good at inventing builds. Still I would think the Proleague format would be suit him well, since it is all about that one game.
He got 0-3ed by Minigun, and his play really was not inspiring at all. Considering that this was a pretty important tournament match (winner gets a spot at MLG Dallas), he definitely would be giving it his all. It's setting oneself up for disappointment if one hopes that Idra can be the one who turns EGTL around in PL.
On March 08 2013 05:58 mrRoflpwn wrote: Lol, I love how they say maybe by switchign uip the foreigners they can win- ya right, Idra and demuslim can barely compete at an NA level- nobody in their right mind is expecting them to win even a single game in proleague.
Although DeMusliM is competent I wholeheartedly agree that he's going to have a really difficult time in Proleague considering ThorZain's results.
IdrA on the other hand you can never underestimate. He's been playing HOTS for a very very very long time now and will probably have the most understanding of the game in the first rounds. That and never forget that he is IdrA. The guy Koreans respect, the guy who's been on a CJ and worn their uniform, who knows how important Proleague is. He is always relevant and always an asset not dead weight.
Hmm no, as much as i love idra for the hilarity he brings to the scene, if you watch him stream his play is very uninspiring; he always seems to be a few months behind everyone else in the metagame and i think he's have trouble in hots as he'll have to wait for korean zergs to figure out what to do and then copy them.
Idra has all but come out as said that he only messes around when he streams. Like Grubby, he has streaming builds that he does and are pretty neutral as to his play style. But you are right that he has trouble being creative and is not good at inventing builds. Still I would think the Proleague format would be suit him well, since it is all about that one game.
He got 0-3ed by Minigun, and his play really was not inspiring at all. Considering that this was a pretty important tournament match (winner gets a spot at MLG Dallas), he definitely would be giving it his all. It's setting oneself up for disappointment if one hopes that Idra can be the one who turns EGTL around in PL.
But he got a moral victory in one game against morrow
If this article was right about IdrA playing in SPL, I'm so happy. I love me some Gracken. Even have his T-Shirt! Too bad EGTL is last. I thought they were going to do some stompage. Wonder how a team like LG-IM or ST would do in proleague.
EGTL made me sad ins so many ways, yeah... such a big disappointment really hope they're able to come back or something. We were talking about it in irc and perhaps even a change in coaching staff (along the lines of what some of the korean teams have done in the past iirc?) would be in line. Best of luck to them.
On March 08 2013 06:15 Neptuneajax wrote: Look at how quickly the Kespa pros got good at SC2 in general. Like within 6 months they came from a totally different game to dominating established pro with 2-3 years experience. Why do people think an expansion with a few new rules here and there is going to change anything? Kespa players will continue to dominate and ESF players will slowly fall by the wayside to these superior gamers. Not that I want this to happen of course but in reality I honestly think that in a year's time we will be saying..."Taeja, who?"
You know that either 6months or 2-3years are basically the same right? Or do the Kespa players have to play all the way back to 5rax reaper on jungle basin and work their way up to the current state of the game?
Bad argument. In BW no one got a chance to play in the A-team without at least a couple of years in the B-team. And that is even after having played the game many hours per day many years to be picked up by a team as a trainee. You needed that time to get your fundamentals going.
On March 08 2013 16:19 RagequitBM wrote: If this article was right about IdrA playing in SPL, I'm so happy. I love me some Gracken. Even have his T-Shirt! Too bad EGTL is last. I thought they were going to do some stompage. Wonder how a team like LG-IM or ST would do in proleague.
Apparently there are big changes coming to EG-TL soon: Taken from reddit.
Evil GeniusesiamlectR 51 points 4 days ago Change is coming to EG-TL soon, folks. We're not happy at all with how it has been managed. There will be some news here soon.
am I the only one who thinks EGTL actually performs better than expected? I think they are doing pretty damn good considering they have to play vs the best players.
On March 09 2013 15:36 Kaitokid wrote: am I the only one who thinks EGTL actually performs better than expected? I think they are doing pretty damn good considering they have to play vs the best players.
yeah, you're easily one of the very very few who have that opinion haha
On March 09 2013 15:27 Mongolbonjwa wrote: Ratio is not percentage. Ratio is number like 1,5. For an example, if your stats are 3 wins and 2 losses then your winratio is 1,5
If your win:loss ratio is 3:2, then you've won 3/5 of your games, or 60% of them. You don't say you've won 3/2 or 1.5 (or 150%) of your games, as the most you could win would be 100% (all of them). You're mixing up part : whole with part : part.
A ratio shows a relationship between two numbers. Fractions can be written as percentages too, or equivalent decimals technically, but you usually do not depict a ratio of two numbers as a decimal. You generally depict the ratio as a fraction, because that clearly shows the two numbers you're comparing.
On March 09 2013 15:27 Mongolbonjwa wrote: Ratio is not percentage. Ratio is number like 1,5. For an example, if your stats are 3 wins and 2 losses then your winratio is 1,5
If your win:loss ratio is 3:2, then you've won 3/5 of your games, or 60% of them. You don't say you've won 3/2 or 1.5 (or 150%) of your games, as the most you could win would be 100% (all of them). You're mixing up part : whole with part : part.
A ratio shows a relationship between two numbers. Fractions can be written as percentages too, or equivalent decimals technically, but you usually do not depict a ratio of two numbers as a decimal. You generally depict the ratio as a fraction, because that clearly shows the two numbers you're comparing.
Win percentage/win rate and ratio are totally different things. Also, ratio is often depicted as a decimal instead of fraction. (for an example, win/loss ratio)
On March 09 2013 15:43 Wrathsc2 wrote: i have a feeling they just arent playing as much as they should be..
Well from everything that has come out I am pretty confident to say you are wrong. Now as to whether the practice environment is a healthy one promoting of good play I dunno as interviews from players that have come out lately seem a bit sketchy. But it does seem like they are playing 8-10 hours a day but then again playing 8-10 hours and being in a bad environment emotionally is just like not practicing at all.
On March 09 2013 15:27 Mongolbonjwa wrote: Ratio is not percentage. Ratio is number like 1,5. For an example, if your stats are 3 wins and 2 losses then your winratio is 1,5
If your win:loss ratio is 3:2, then you've won 3/5 of your games, or 60% of them. You don't say you've won 3/2 or 1.5 (or 150%) of your games, as the most you could win would be 100% (all of them). You're mixing up part : whole with part : part.
A ratio shows a relationship between two numbers. Fractions can be written as percentages too, or equivalent decimals technically, but you usually do not depict a ratio of two numbers as a decimal. You generally depict the ratio as a fraction, because that clearly shows the two numbers you're comparing.
Win percentage/win rate and ratio are totally different things.
a ratio involves two numbers, so you cannot represent it as a single decimal
On March 09 2013 15:27 Mongolbonjwa wrote: Ratio is not percentage. Ratio is number like 1,5. For an example, if your stats are 3 wins and 2 losses then your winratio is 1,5
If your win:loss ratio is 3:2, then you've won 3/5 of your games, or 60% of them. You don't say you've won 3/2 or 1.5 (or 150%) of your games, as the most you could win would be 100% (all of them). You're mixing up part : whole with part : part.
A ratio shows a relationship between two numbers. Fractions can be written as percentages too, or equivalent decimals technically, but you usually do not depict a ratio of two numbers as a decimal. You generally depict the ratio as a fraction, because that clearly shows the two numbers you're comparing.
Win percentage/win rate and ratio are totally different things.
a ratio involves two numbers, so you cannot represent it as a single decimal
1.5 could mean 36:24 or 100:50 or 3:2 or whatever
Ratio is the relation between two numbers, in this case wins and losses and it can be represented as a single decimal. Like I said, ratio is not same as win rate.
As it is in the OP, the "ratio" is used 100% incorrectly.
EDIT: apparently the OP changed the choice of word.
Evil GeniusesiamlectR 51 points 4 days ago Change is coming to EG-TL soon, folks. We're not happy at all with how it has been managed. There will be some news here soon.
strange how someone who sees fit to tell koreans off for allegedly poor english is so stubborn about mathematical definitions. if i were to represent how much someone ones, a single number would be a win rate. you would never hear someone say 'symbol has a win ratio of 1.5' because that's just wrong lol
On March 09 2013 15:27 Mongolbonjwa wrote: Ratio is not percentage. Ratio is number like 1,5. For an example, if your stats are 3 wins and 2 losses then your winratio is 1,5
If your win:loss ratio is 3:2, then you've won 3/5 of your games, or 60% of them. You don't say you've won 3/2 or 1.5 (or 150%) of your games, as the most you could win would be 100% (all of them). You're mixing up part : whole with part : part.
A ratio shows a relationship between two numbers. Fractions can be written as percentages too, or equivalent decimals technically, but you usually do not depict a ratio of two numbers as a decimal. You generally depict the ratio as a fraction, because that clearly shows the two numbers you're comparing.
Win percentage/win rate and ratio are totally different things. Also, ratio is often depicted as a decimal instead of fraction. (for an example, win/loss ratio)
I'm sorry, but you're completely incorrect. The central difference between percentage and ratio is that ratio still includes both numbers being compared, which is why it does not generally use decimals.
Definition of 'Win/Loss Ratio' A ratio of the total number of winning trades to the number of losing trades. It does not take into account how much was won or lost simply if they were winners or losers.
Win/Loss Ratio = Winning Trades : Losing Trades
The win/loss ratio is also known as the "success ratio".
Investopedia explains 'Win/Loss Ratio' For example, if you made 30 trades and of them 12 were winners 18 were losers, your win/loss ratio would be 2:3. Your probability of success would be 40%.
3 Examples 3.1 Fraction 4 Number of terms 4.1 Percentage ratio
The ratio of numbers A and B can be expressed as:[4] the ratio of A to B A is to B A:B A fraction (rational number) that is the quotient of A divided by B
~http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratio
Notice how these are written as percents and fractions. You could depict them as the equivalent decimal, but they're almost always going to be less than 100% for reasons previously stated.
Those player stats are right where I would have them except a few more W's against the other teams.
On March 09 2013 16:15 Daswollvieh wrote: Coaches gonna get fired for inability to create and maintain a productive training atmosphere and team spirit.
Hold the phone there bucko. I wouldn't blame Hwanni or Park for whatever expectations you might have had. Unfortunately to change the philosophy you sort of have to reflect back on what it is that the essence of the team stands for. Marketing their players and live streaming. You can only do so much with what's given to you and don't complain about the line-up. Enough excuses.
The problem is definitely the coach. Players going so far as to complain shows a lot of problems. It takes a lot to actually complain on Twitter about internal affairs. Regardless if it is the coach's fault or not, that kinda atmosphere has to change, which means a new coach.
On March 09 2013 16:34 Mohdoo wrote: The problem is definitely the coach. Players going so far as to complain shows a lot of problems. It takes a lot to actually complain on Twitter about internal affairs. Regardless if it is the coach's fault or not, that kinda atmosphere has to change, which means a new coach.
How about changing the entire philosophy of the frigging team? Sorry, but you guys are really looking for a scapegoat. The EG marketing machine will press forward.
On March 09 2013 15:27 Mongolbonjwa wrote: Ratio is not percentage. Ratio is number like 1,5. For an example, if your stats are 3 wins and 2 losses then your winratio is 1,5
If your win:loss ratio is 3:2, then you've won 3/5 of your games, or 60% of them. You don't say you've won 3/2 or 1.5 (or 150%) of your games, as the most you could win would be 100% (all of them). You're mixing up part : whole with part : part.
A ratio shows a relationship between two numbers. Fractions can be written as percentages too, or equivalent decimals technically, but you usually do not depict a ratio of two numbers as a decimal. You generally depict the ratio as a fraction, because that clearly shows the two numbers you're comparing.
Win percentage/win rate and ratio are totally different things.
a ratio involves two numbers, so you cannot represent it as a single decimal
1.5 could mean 36:24 or 100:50 or 3:2 or whatever
Ratio is the relation between two numbers, in this case wins and losses and it can be represented as a single decimal. Like I said, ratio is not same as win rate.
As it is in the OP, the "ratio" is used 100% incorrectly.
EDIT: apparently the OP changed the choice of word.
Show me a real life example of where someone would depict ratio as a single decimal. It makes no sense to do that, because doing so you lose a lot of information. 1.5 may mean, for example, 150:100.
Also you say that when you have 3 wins and 2 loses your winratio is 1.5. This is what I call a semantical abuse. It is not winratio, it is win:lose ratio.
On March 09 2013 16:34 Mohdoo wrote: The problem is definitely the coach. Players going so far as to complain shows a lot of problems. It takes a lot to actually complain on Twitter about internal affairs. Regardless if it is the coach's fault or not, that kinda atmosphere has to change, which means a new coach.
How about changing the entire philosophy of the frigging team? Sorry, but you guys are really looking for a scapegoat. The EG marketing machine will press forward.
Yes, because clearly the marketing in the Korean EG house is getting out of control. Look at all that time spent on PR videos, it adds up to hours...okay, maybe minutes...seconds?
Okay, the point is, even if EG hasn't been making any PR videos in Korea, even zero videos is too much.
150:100 is 0,6 which is same as 3:2 which is also 0.6
The actual numbers often are irrelevant if we just want to look at how succesful player is. Win/loss ratio for an example 3,0 is completely sufficient for that. Of course we would not want to entirely forget the actual numbers because it would be just silly to call someone super good with w/l ratio of 3,0 if he has just 3 games played where he won all three.
In many FPS-games there is dedicated k/d ratio section in the stats screen which is always a decimal.
On March 09 2013 16:34 Mohdoo wrote: The problem is definitely the coach. Players going so far as to complain shows a lot of problems. It takes a lot to actually complain on Twitter about internal affairs. Regardless if it is the coach's fault or not, that kinda atmosphere has to change, which means a new coach.
How about changing the entire philosophy of the frigging team? Sorry, but you guys are really looking for a scapegoat. The EG marketing machine will press forward.
Yes, because clearly the marketing in the Korean EG house is getting out of control. Look at all that time spent on PR videos, it adds up to hours...okay, maybe minutes...seconds?
Okay, the point is, even if EG hasn't been making any PR videos in Korea, even zero videos is too much.
It's not just videos /facepalm. For example live streaming isn't precision practice. #Wakeup.
Acting like a bunch of prima donnas doesn't help too - that's with regards to the complaining. You think this applies to only EG? Look at what happened when the MoW tried to introduce players to coaches. They didn't want to listen and wanted to stream/play their own way. Do you see where I'm going with this?
Anyway, as I already said. When you look at each individual players performance. They're right around where I would have them. The only difference is the team win column where I would have them fighting for the WC.
On March 09 2013 16:34 Mohdoo wrote: The problem is definitely the coach. Players going so far as to complain shows a lot of problems. It takes a lot to actually complain on Twitter about internal affairs. Regardless if it is the coach's fault or not, that kinda atmosphere has to change, which means a new coach.
How about changing the entire philosophy of the frigging team? Sorry, but you guys are really looking for a scapegoat. The EG marketing machine will press forward.
Yes, because clearly the marketing in the Korean EG house is getting out of control. Look at all that time spent on PR videos, it adds up to hours...okay, maybe minutes...seconds?
Okay, the point is, even if EG hasn't been making any PR videos in Korea, even zero videos is too much.
It's not just videos /facepalm. #Wakeup. Acting like a bunch of prima donnas doesn't help too. You think this applies to only EG? Look at what happened when the MoW tried to introduce players to coaches. They didn't want to listen and wanted to stream/play their own way. Do you see where I'm going with this?
Anyway, as I already said. When you look at each individual players performance. They're right around where I would have them. The only difference is the team win column where I would have them fighting for the WC.
So you seriously believe that the majority of players in the Korean house have issues listening to coaches?
You think Puma and Jaedong, two players who were on Kespa teams, don't like coaches?
You think JYP and Revival who were on TSL under Coach Lee can't handle someone advising them?
How about the oGs boys HerO and Zenio? How about Taeja?
You might have a point when it comes to HuK and Stephano. But even that's based on a lot of assumptions.
On March 09 2013 16:15 Daswollvieh wrote: Coaches gonna get fired for inability to create and maintain a productive training atmosphere and team spirit.
Hold the phone there bucko. I wouldn't blame Hwanni or Park for whatever expectations you might have had. Unfortunately to change the philosophy you sort of have to reflect back on what it is that the essence of the team stands for. Marketing their players and live streaming. You can only do so much with what's given to you and don't complain about the line-up. Enough excuses.
What we definitely know is that most players are underperforming. They have been a lot better under a different environment - whether they are truly compatible or not - and its the coaches job to provide this environment. Sure the players also contribute, but it´s mainly the coaches´ job. So it absolutely makes sense to criticize them, because they are biggest "new" factor for the teams. From an outside perspective, i.e. from interviews, I believe the problem lies in the coaches´ lax attitude. I don´t get the impression of professionality and the necessary professional relationship among staff and players. It´s like parents who try to be their childrens´ friends, wonder why they go apeshit and then start screaming. Like it or not, SC players are young adults at best from a maturity stand-point. They are away from home in an adolescent environment and thus need adults as role-models and authorities, who give a sense of security by setting rules to relate to, because these natural developments are not yet completed. What I am seeing (coming from a sports and educational background) is coaches, who try and have a fun time and thereby unsettle their youthful players, who need responsible and reliable adults in their environment. I assume, this is even more true for Koreans, because the relationship to elders is much stricter there.
Of course we have not been there and I´m merely speaking about my impressions. But the Stephano-interview (thank God for the fearless Frechman) was, frankly, quite shocking and confirming grave concerns.
EDIT
StarStruck wrote: Acting like a bunch of prima donnas doesn't help too - that's with regards to the complaining. You think this applies to only EG? Look at what happened when the MoW tried to introduce players to coaches. They didn't want to listen and wanted to stream/play their own way. Do you see where I'm going with this?
That´s what you get when you leave adolescents without adult guidance. You get the friggin lord of the flies. It´s not right to assume 20 year old gamers are fully matured grown-ups who can function in a group by themselves.
On March 09 2013 16:34 Mohdoo wrote: The problem is definitely the coach. Players going so far as to complain shows a lot of problems. It takes a lot to actually complain on Twitter about internal affairs. Regardless if it is the coach's fault or not, that kinda atmosphere has to change, which means a new coach.
How about changing the entire philosophy of the frigging team? Sorry, but you guys are really looking for a scapegoat. The EG marketing machine will press forward.
Yes, because clearly the marketing in the Korean EG house is getting out of control. Look at all that time spent on PR videos, it adds up to hours...okay, maybe minutes...seconds?
Okay, the point is, even if EG hasn't been making any PR videos in Korea, even zero videos is too much.
It's not just videos /facepalm. #Wakeup. Acting like a bunch of prima donnas doesn't help too. You think this applies to only EG? Look at what happened when the MoW tried to introduce players to coaches. They didn't want to listen and wanted to stream/play their own way. Do you see where I'm going with this?
Anyway, as I already said. When you look at each individual players performance. They're right around where I would have them. The only difference is the team win column where I would have them fighting for the WC.
So you seriously believe that the majority of players in the Korean house have issues listening to coaches?
You think Puma and Jaedong, two players who were on Kespa teams, don't like coaches?
You think JYP and Revival who were on TSL under Coach Lee can't handle someone advising them?
How about the oGs boys HerO and Zenio? How about Taeja?
You might have a point when it comes to HuK and Stephano. But even that's based on a lot of assumptions.
Did they or did they not complain? You tell me. I look at player's on an individual basis. For instance, I'd say Stephano has lived up to my expectations of him considering he's playing just over 50-50 Starcraft. Didn't I have a bet with a guy where I said this? Yeah I did. Forget the chaps name. In either case, I called one to two games above 50-50. The guy would be a regular on any Pro League team and that's a good thing.
Player's work at their own time & pace. There's only so much a coach can do for them and then it comes down to execution. Anyway, you guys are looking in the wrong places.
On March 09 2013 16:29 StarStruck wrote: Those player stats are right where I would have them except a few more W's against the other teams.
On March 09 2013 16:15 Daswollvieh wrote: Coaches gonna get fired for inability to create and maintain a productive training atmosphere and team spirit.
Hold the phone there bucko. I wouldn't blame Hwanni or Park for whatever expectations you might have had. Unfortunately to change the philosophy you sort of have to reflect back on what it is that the essence of the team stands for. Marketing their players and live streaming. You can only do so much with what's given to you and don't complain about the line-up. Enough excuses.
What we definitely know is that most players are underperforming. They have been a lot better under a different environment - whether they are truly compatible or not - and its the coaches job to provide this environment. Sure the players also contribute, but it´s mainly the coaches´ job. So it absolutely makes sense to criticize them, because they are biggest "new" factor for the teams. From an outside perspective, i.e. from interviews, I believe the problem lies in the coaches´ lax attitude. I don´t get the impression of professionality and the necessary professional relationship among staff and players. It´s like parents who try to be their childrens´ friends, wonder why they go apeshit and then start screaming. Like it or not, SC players are young adults at best from a maturity stand-point. They are away from home in an adolescent environment and thus need adults as role-models and authorities, who give a sense of security by setting rules to relate to, because these natural developments are not yet completed. What I am seeing (coming from a sports and educational background) is coaches, who try and have a fun time and thereby unsettle their youthful players, who need responsible and reliable adults in their environment. I assume, this is even more true for Koreans, because the relationship to elders is much stricter there.
Of course we have not been there and I´m merely speaking about my impressions. But the Stephano-interview (thank God for the fearless Frechman) was, frankly, quite shocking and confirming grave concerns.
StarStruck wrote: Acting like a bunch of prima donnas doesn't help too - that's with regards to the complaining. You think this applies to only EG? Look at what happened when the MoW tried to introduce players to coaches. They didn't want to listen and wanted to stream/play their own way. Do you see where I'm going with this?
That´s what you get when you leave adolescents without adult guidance. You get the friggin lord of the flies. It´s not right to assume 20 year old gamers are fully matured grown-ups who can function in a group by themselves.
You are rude an your assumptions are hilarious
They aren't 12 yrs old childs that suffered bullying and need security. They aren't adolescents, they don't need adult guidance, they are adults. They need a coach who must give them advices so they can become better at sc2, not your social bullshit.
If the coach stress them, adds some useless pressure, wakes them up for nothing, yells, doesn't have a good plan for PL, can't give good advices on builds etc... He needs to change that's all. Even if the attitude of the coach seem bad, i don't think it's the biggest part of the problem. I think it might be the ambiance, everyone must be down, perhaps they don't rly share or help one another. Also 4 of them were in a slump (jyp, huk, zenio, puma) even before PL so maybe this bad mentality (assuming it exists) affected the others and now everyone is in slump.
I pray better mentality from Idra then that he had at the MLG quali vs Minigun. I doubt the foreigners are the key though, EG-TL needs a fit Taeja and a Puma finding his form again.
I don't think EGTL's the problem. Most non-Kespa Korean teams wouldn't have done much better. The Kespa players, on average, have more talent, practice more, and practice more efficiently.
I would disagree that JYP is perfoming below expectation. He is the only one on expectation (maybe together with Stephano of whom we need to see more games).
Nobody expected him to carry EGTL, he is not one of the star players. Still he has an even record of 10-10 now. (if the actual star players would have winning records, EGTL would be crushing)
On March 09 2013 15:36 Kaitokid wrote: am I the only one who thinks EGTL actually performs better than expected? I think they are doing pretty damn good considering they have to play vs the best players.
I sort of agree. Hero and Taeja are the only real heavy hitters on the team.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/2/2d/Eg-Liquidlogo_std.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/B7VLZUP.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GGOKFB3.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/izRo9Yl.jpg)
JYP | 10-10 | 50%
Jaedong | 7-10 | 41.2%
TaeJa | 6-6 | 50%
