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My issues with a few of his thoughts.
- A few players are really changing up their play and having completely different results than what's expected by the majority.
Life/MC were the only anomalous results past what was expected. Both of which played in the exact same manner they played in Wings...super aggressive. With HoTS being very new it's not in hindsight a big shock that super aggressive players did well in this tournament.
- Some of the initial balance concerns do seem to be continuing in games whereas the more creative players aren't struggling as much against them.
The player who struggled the least against the balance concerns (life)...if anything played the least creative style possible. Mind you I didn't say his games were not exciting, but the overall style was very basic.
Some things we're thinking of going forward:
- We'll try our best to not be too quick to make judgments on things that are allowing players to play a much more aggressive game. For example, yes Medivacs look strong but it's forcing even the opponents to play aggressive and the constant action throughout the game is looking to be really fun to watch.
So after re reading this properly my main concern here is this...ZvZ...it was a very very fast paced match up very early on in WoL and for most of Wings remained that way. So just assuming fast paced is good because it was fun when it's new, doesn't mean that shiny toy won't get a lot of rust on it in a hurry for ZvT.
- We'll continue watching all the pro and community concerns, but keep in mind we'd really like the game to settle before we step in and make a move
I think despite my concerns posted, that this is not an unwise approach. But based on some of the abysmal design decisions made during WoL, I do not have 100% confidence HoTS will not stagnate once people get attack and defense timings figured out. It's hard for a lot of people to recall but WoL was very fast paced and in ways exciting for the first few months while people figured out the game.
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lol people calling me biased when i'm describing scenarios in TvT/PvP. I don't even...
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On March 22 2013 08:32 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2013 08:14 RevTiberius wrote:
I know this is meant to make the game better, but forcing every m/u into hyper aggressive game play is not progress in my opinion Well 15 minute macro games into 200/200 battles was pretty bad. NO one liked that either.
The thing about "forcing aggression" is that you can push the efficiency of aggression too much and end up with random chance deciding the outcome of a game instead of skill. Human reaction time only goes so far and if these abilities are "balanced" for pros they will be totally overpowered for non-pros ... The Medivac turbo boost is such a mechanic which gives the Terran a rather easy opportunity to drop an enemy's base and the enemy HAS TO defend with sufficient numbers against this, because that same speed boost allows the Terran to get back home fast enough if it turns into a base trade scenario.
People have already spoken out against defending their bases with cannons for example - something which I still think is viable - so there are only two options left:
- accept the gamble and hope he doesnt drop you and take your whole army out on the battlefield OR
- weaken your main army and leave some units back home in the hope that you put them in the right spot AND see the drop coming early enough to react (if you have a High Templar for defense and want to feeedback the Medivacs for example).
To get rid of 200/200 macro games there is the other solution of getting rid of macro mechanics which allow you to get a massive amount of units in a short time. Players would have to be content with whatever units they can make and would stop throwing them away as easily and use more strategy to win games instead of pure macroing power.
Less is more!
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To get rid of 200/200 macro games there is the other solution of getting rid of macro mechanics which allow you to get a massive amount of units in a short time. Players would have to be content with whatever units they can make and would stop throwing them away as easily and use more strategy to win games instead of pure macroing power.
Less is more![/QUOTE]
Nothing to add other then that I love what you just wrote so true! +++++ :D
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On March 22 2013 11:31 avilo wrote:
lol people calling me biased when i'm describing scenarios in TvT/PvP. I don't even...
You can still be biased towards T in TvT. Basically the sum of your argument was "I can't handle medivac drops, they break me everytime, every other race can handle them but T, imba imba imba".
That's biased towards your identity as the Terran who can't handle a certain form of play and is biased against it begging for a change. Doesn't matter if your opponent is P,T or Z. You are trying to whine to address your own gameplay issues, that makes you biased as you have a conflict of interest if your were to testify to this in court.
Edit: and for the idiot who is going to say "it can't be imba because the other terran can do it too" and misses the obvious assertion that we are discussing bio vs mech, one phrase fits perfectly. "Two wrongs don't make a right"
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On March 22 2013 14:35 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2013 11:31 avilo wrote:
lol people calling me biased when i'm describing scenarios in TvT/PvP. I don't even... You can still be biased towards T in TvT. Basically the sum of your argument was "I can't handle medivac drops, they break me everytime, every other race can handle them but T, imba imba imba". That's biased towards your identity as the Terran who can't handle a certain form of play and is biased against it begging for a change. Doesn't matter if your opponent is P,T or Z. You are trying to whine to address your own gameplay issues, that makes you biased as you have a conflict of interest if your were to testify to this in court. Edit: and for the idiot who is going to say "it can't be imba because the other terran can do it too" and misses the obvious assertion that we are discussing bio vs mech, one phrase fits perfectly. "Two wrongs don't make a right"
If you take away Bio's mobility, what advantages does it have over Mech? If all you want is Mech-all-the-time-TvT, just say so and get it over with. Personally, I like the fact that Bio actually can work.
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Would be nice if medivac boost was an upgrade, and warp prism speed increase seems cool too. Would also be nice to see something done with nydus worms so people use them more often, besides placing them in peoples bases
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On March 22 2013 15:29 dgwow wrote:
Would be nice if medivac boost was an upgrade, and warp prism speed increase seems cool too. Would also be nice to see something done with nydus worms so people use them more often, besides placing them in peoples bases
That doesnt solve any problem ... it only delays it. SC2 is a game which is mostly about tons of resources and this makes upgrades not much of an issue except for time. The "dont let them get there" is a popular method of balancing for the Blizzard devemlopment team, but it really sucks and there should be units OR OTHER METHODS capable of dealing with problematic issues.
Due to the high speed the Medivacs could fly over "a few cannons" without dying completely and building "a lot of cannons everywhere" and then never needing them will set your army back too much and you already lose on the battlefield. Having to use part of your supply to stay back is even worse, because you need to be fast enough to use those units against the Medivacs (High Templar for example) to make a difference and in addition that amount of supply is missing from your main army as well. So how can the speed boost be balanced in any way? Personally I think it cant be and although it might be a nice thing on the battlefield with your army it seems rather overpowered when it comes to drops ... and should be taken out altogether and be replaced with something sensible.
Less is more!
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A FYI for everyone in this thread. There are only 2 Terrans in the top twenty of the Korean GM right now.
Obviously this doesn't prove everything about balance but it gives the people complaining about all things Terran something to think about.
Step back from your own experience in the game and look at the big picture, the game doesn't revolve around you not being able to deal with drops and mines.
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As Hots forum is down I post this here. I need some help with running hot guys. My WoL client is fully updated after the patch and optimized on my Desktop .Is it possible for me to copy some files in particular so that I dont have to download the whole patch again to run Hots on my laptop?
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On March 22 2013 10:01 Nerski wrote:My issues with a few of his thoughts. Show nested quote +- A few players are really changing up their play and having completely different results than what's expected by the majority. Life/MC were the only anomalous results past what was expected. Both of which played in the exact same manner they played in Wings...super aggressive. With HoTS being very new it's not in hindsight a big shock that super aggressive players did well in this tournament. Show nested quote +- Some of the initial balance concerns do seem to be continuing in games whereas the more creative players aren't struggling as much against them. The player who struggled the least against the balance concerns (life)...if anything played the least creative style possible. Mind you I didn't say his games were not exciting, but the overall style was very basic. Some things we're thinking of going forward: Show nested quote +- We'll try our best to not be too quick to make judgments on things that are allowing players to play a much more aggressive game. For example, yes Medivacs look strong but it's forcing even the opponents to play aggressive and the constant action throughout the game is looking to be really fun to watch. So after re reading this properly my main concern here is this...ZvZ...it was a very very fast paced match up very early on in WoL and for most of Wings remained that way. So just assuming fast paced is good because it was fun when it's new, doesn't mean that shiny toy won't get a lot of rust on it in a hurry for ZvT. Show nested quote +- We'll continue watching all the pro and community concerns, but keep in mind we'd really like the game to settle before we step in and make a move I think despite my concerns posted, that this is not an unwise approach. But based on some of the abysmal design decisions made during WoL, I do not have 100% confidence HoTS will not stagnate once people get attack and defense timings figured out. It's hard for a lot of people to recall but WoL was very fast paced and in ways exciting for the first few months while people figured out the game.
Couldn't agree more.
I honestly have no idea if David Kim is even watching the same games as the rest of us. I don't know what creative stuff we're seeing aside from Leenock--who was merely playing HotS instead of WoL--who proceeded to get roflstomped in the ro16 at MLG.
Also, concerning Life's victory--and it was talked about on SotG--but if Terrans just made tanks, his shenanigans would not have worked. We even saw Last split expertly and defend it without tanks, so just imagine...
I don't think letting some time pass is a bad idea at all, but DK's reasons for wanting to do so are pretty piss-poor. As usual.
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you cant "just make tanks" with this terran opening which is why life's style was creative and effective
everything flash aimed for was 2-2 bio at ~14min with some mine and medivac support to have a good timing window to applys pressure.
if he made tanks he could not make as many medivacs, he could not get 2-2, he would not be able to apply pressure, he would not win as "easily" (because the other zerg's strat was just shit) as he did.
life figured this out and countered it, flash did not change his BO by much, life won... that is how it is supposted to be.
(and not just "lolz i make infestors so you lose")
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But who makes Tanks when MMM+M(mines) is a much safer opening against P or Z. MMMM is safer against army collapse as so often happens to Terran Mech. MMMM also has much more mobility and flexibility against whatever gets thrown at you.
Unfortunately, I'm already bored of wave after wave of MMMM. At least P and Z often make different units throughout a game, but Terran is all about spamming MMMM MMMM MMMM MMMM MMMM. Boring as fuck to watch.
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On March 22 2013 14:35 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2013 11:31 avilo wrote:
lol people calling me biased when i'm describing scenarios in TvT/PvP. I don't even... You can still be biased towards T in TvT. Basically the sum of your argument was "I can't handle medivac drops, they break me everytime, every other race can handle them but T, imba imba imba". That's biased towards your identity as the Terran who can't handle a certain form of play and is biased against it begging for a change. Doesn't matter if your opponent is P,T or Z. You are trying to whine to address your own gameplay issues, that makes you biased as you have a conflict of interest if your were to testify to this in court. Edit: and for the idiot who is going to say "it can't be imba because the other terran can do it too" and misses the obvious assertion that we are discussing bio vs mech, one phrase fits perfectly. "Two wrongs don't make a right"
Tell me if this is bias:
http://www.twitch.tv/avilo/b/380724901
Watch the experiment. It's as if the missile turrets are not even there -_-
Go to 29:50 if you want to really see some ridiculousness :D
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Pvz atm is the worst out of all matchups i think atm. If P is decent and dont make stuppid mistakes, it can stay on 3 base, never move out and slowely take the 4th when he has enough HT voids colossi. Theres nothing you can do atm vs it. Theres many top zergs who feel the same about it lately. The hydra timings worked, but now toss realized they just have to make templar and voidrays. =(
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TvT is usually the go to matchup, when you want to see good game design, so when something is awfully wrong in TvT it speaks for itself.
It's really clear how strong the Medivac and Mines is, when opponent goes Colossus there's a lot stronger tendency to still go Medivacs and ignore them and Siege Tanks are totally left out, because the Mine does everything so much better and so much more cost efficiently.
You can't say leave these units alone and buff other races, since then whatever you chose to buff on the other race and Medivac/Mine will always be the stronger units and will be the go to. Other units will be weaker and left out.
The two of them are fun plays so I don't want them gone, but Medivac boost could at least cost 25 energy, so there's a decision in boosting them, instead of just another macro mechanic which you want to click as often as possible.
The Mines are just too cost efficient, I wouldn't mind them one shotting a Stalker or Oracle if they at least was visible during the time or something, so you can get rid of the damn thing.
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On March 22 2013 16:26 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2013 15:29 dgwow wrote:
Would be nice if medivac boost was an upgrade, and warp prism speed increase seems cool too. Would also be nice to see something done with nydus worms so people use them more often, besides placing them in peoples bases That doesnt solve any problem ... it only delays it. SC2 is a game which is mostly about tons of resources and this makes upgrades not much of an issue except for time. The "dont let them get there" is a popular method of balancing for the Blizzard devemlopment team, but it really sucks and there should be units OR OTHER METHODS capable of dealing with problematic issues. Due to the high speed the Medivacs could fly over "a few cannons" without dying completely and building "a lot of cannons everywhere" and then never needing them will set your army back too much and you already lose on the battlefield. Having to use part of your supply to stay back is even worse, because you need to be fast enough to use those units against the Medivacs (High Templar for example) to make a difference and in addition that amount of supply is missing from your main army as well. So how can the speed boost be balanced in any way? Personally I think it cant be and although it might be a nice thing on the battlefield with your army it seems rather overpowered when it comes to drops ... and should be taken out altogether and be replaced with something sensible. Less is more!
As you stated yourself, SC2 is a game where resources are in abundance. The game IS based around timings. There are 3 ways in which units/abilities/etc can be balanced.
1) It can have its timing adjusted. This form of adjustment takes place when a unit is considered balanced at max supply. This can apply to the unit as a whole (eg Depot need for Rax to slow bio pressure) or to the units stats in the way of upgrades (eg blink research time), or the unit/ability/etc it can be moved forward if it wont cause balance problems to give more options in its use (eg Dark Shine build time or overlord speed at hatch).
A hypothetical medivac example is making boot an upgrade at techlab. This would have a 2 fold effect. You would have a timing in which a Terran can reactor 2 medivacs with no boosters or 1 medivac with boosters.
2) It can have its stats adjusted. This is performed when the unit is not considered balanced at 200 supply. Good examples of this are the supply cap increase of the Voidray (Even if other adjustments still need to be made I the future), Projectile being added to fungal, or attack range of the Pheonix).
A hypothetical medivac example is to increase the cooldown on boosters, or to make the medivac unresponsive to move commands during a boost. Both of these changes
Often the adjustments made using this form of balancing can result in the need to perform a timing adjustment also in order to maintain balance. For example hydra getting an Offcreep speed increase, but requiring an upgrade to use it. The choice to make this change require an upgrade is most likely to prevent the change from making the unit too powerful at earlier stages of the game, and maintain the pre-existing timings involved.
3) Redesign. This is performed when either the unit can not have its stats/timing adjusted in a way which maintains both balance and the usefulness of the unit/ability, or if the unit/ability is considered redundant in its current form. (Eg the Voidray or Reaper changes). Generally speaking this is the least acceptable form of change as it can have dramatic effects on all matchups and mane timings, altering the gameplay as a whole. It is generally considered better practice to nerf such units/abilities to a point in which they are slightly underpowered or redundant and perform the redesign during the release of an expansion. This is because unlike in a standard patch, it is the expectation that an expansion will have more dramatic effects of gameplay so such large changes can take place without causing disruption to tournaments etc. (The Reaper is a perfect example of this process taking place using this best practice).
TLDR: Hopefully what I have pointed out with this post is that generally there are two different ways to make balance changes, and the one you use is based on wether the unit is considered balanced at max supply. This is why 90% of the time you see timing adjustments over stat changes. The effects on the maxed gameplay are minimal when adjusting timings, but can have many implications from stat changes (even +10hp to a unit could have much larger effects than you can initially see). I don't think it is fair to have any negativity towards the use of timing adjustments when possible.
edit:Formatting
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On March 22 2013 16:41 Infinite Loop wrote:
A FYI for everyone in this thread. There are only 2 Terrans in the top twenty of the Korean GM right now.
Obviously this doesn't prove everything about balance but it gives the people complaining about all things Terran something to think about.
Step back from your own experience in the game and look at the big picture, the game doesn't revolve around you not being able to deal with drops and mines.
Blizzard is likely aware of the data of how those games went down as well. I think players figured out how to deal with drops. I mean if you play against something for a long enough time you should be able to figure it out, and these guys play 40+ games a day.
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i have learn today that people got no brain , who are you for say terran need a nerf or anything else ??
when most of you guy are not even master.... lol , you got nothing to say about the balance and know nothing .
practice and get better , you can improve , stop ask for nerf or buff , if you loss that because you are bad , not because terran are imba or anything else .
that was proved that life have show how to deal with mine and make them near to useless , practice and do the same
this was proved that korean deal with the medivac just fine and they just got 5 day practice vs them , learn and do the same
for resume , learn the game , stop ask for nerf because you are bad and cant deal with stuft in this game . nothing imba and nothing need a nerf curently . but blizzard will nerf and adjust because most of you guy are terrible bad and they alway nerf stuft for the bad player .
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On March 22 2013 23:54 quebecman77 wrote:
i have learn today that people got no brain , who are you for say terran need a nerf or anything else ??
when most of you guy are not even master.... lol , you got nothing to say about the balance and know nothing .
practice and get better , you can improve , stop ask for nerf or buff , if you loss that because you are bad , not because terran are imba or anything else .
that was proved that life have show how to deal with mine and make them near to useless , practice and do the same
this was proved that korean deal with the medivac just fine and they just got 5 day practice vs them , learn and do the same
for resume , learn the game , stop ask for nerf because you are bad and cant deal with stuft in this game . nothing imba and nothing need a nerf curently . but blizzard will nerf and adjust because most of you guy are terrible bad and they alway nerf stuft for the bad player .
The only thing not in your brain is grammar
User was warned for this post
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EPT
