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On March 21 2013 21:31 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 20:17 Everlong wrote:On March 21 2013 19:33 avilo wrote:On March 21 2013 17:47 blade55555 wrote:On March 21 2013 17:39 Terrasmith wrote:On March 21 2013 15:34 avilo wrote:
More Terrans going to be going back to mech soon i think. But yah, Zerg is just as powerful as the other races right now and there could even be arguments that as the game is more figured out Zerg will reign supreme again. I don't actually think mech is a truly viable build right now. With mutas buffed and zergs tending to get extremely large numbers of them, a meching player can't leave their base. Even with multiple thors and widow mines, mutas could deal damage if they have three bases to target and the zerg splits well. And with vipers, swarm hosts, spine crawlers, etc a late game zerg could stall a mech army for an extremely long time, while using lings to ravage the terran's economy. Maybe I'm completely missing something, but it seems to me that going straight mech is almost completely inviable as a build right now. I disagree with avilo pretty heavily on terrans going back to mech. But you must be doing something wrong, going mass muta vs a meching terran is suicidal to the max. Thors are super good, putting widow mines by turrets is also a great way to deal with them. Terran has more ways to deal with muta then in wol, and terran never struggled vs mutalisk play either. Mech is a lot harder to pull off in hots then wol, if you don't spread siege tanks or anything viper + w/e unit comp will roll you over. It's a lot harder to do but not impossible. But Bio + widow mine is much stronger imo, I can't remember the last time I lost to mech let alone when I faced it though tbh. Also terrans late game is a LOT stronger then it was in wol not just because of medivacs but the one composition they could never fight in wol was bl/corr/infestor. That was why late game tvz was so zerg favored, with those gone zvt late game is imo pretty damn balanced now. New ultras are good sure, but their not broken or overpowered unless terran is going pure marine then yeah they might seem that way. Widow mine + bio still deals with ultralisks very well and zerg needs to have infestors and get fungals off or bio will kite ultra forever. + speed medivacs and imo even when zergs start dealing with early harass a lot better, terran will not be in the situation they were in wol where they could not beat zerg late game. Now this is assuming that no big nerfs/buffs are handed over where that situation may arise, as of right now late game zvt is NOT zerg favored like it was in wol not even close, it's pretty balanced imo especially with how sick the new raven is. Have you played vs the new mech style though? Mech + mass widow mines to deal with roach/hydra/viper. Viper I agree is horribly imbalanced vs mech, it can make the mech effective army supply go from 140 down to 0 with just 4-5 vipers. But widow mine + mech can get around that because the mines aren't affected by the cloud. I'm talking like 15-20 widow mines essentially replacing hellion supply. Yeah, Tank/Thor + Widow Mine is really good vs Roach/Hydra/Viper.. They will eventualy switch to Broodlords, but you already have Thors + Mines, so reactored starports in case and there is not much Zerg can do.. With the infinite gas hack, Tank/Thor/Mine seems a total legit composition to me!
You're right, that 25 gas is totally what breaks the camels back. 5 mines for the price of one tank? Just can't afford them, give up already.
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On March 21 2013 03:01 Doodsmack wrote:
I'm a Terran player and I don't think Medivacs and mines should be nerfed yet, but I will say its really funny to hear Terrans complain about tvt because of drops, but then argue for tosses and zergs to just have patience and figure it out. Such a perfect illustration (similar to Giantt's contradictions) of how retardedly biased people are in balance arguments.
What's also funny is that the vast majority of these players are losing due to their own terrible mistakes rather than balance. For the vast majority of players, their mistakes far outweigh balance in determining game outcomes. If you want to argue about pro games that's one thing (even though its arguable that if your game knowledge isn't pro level, then your opinion isn't worthwhile), but please stop being terrible at the game before complaining about balance. As amid master myself, I will readily admit how bad I am. I've never cared much about balance because I know I can easily overcome it by outplaying my terrible opponents.
TLDR: balance arguments are retarded.
Z/P mechanics work differently than Terrans. P has feedback / planetary nexus / blink stalkers, Z has spine/spore defense + faster mutalisks + fungal.
Notice all of those insta-gib the drop or lock it down or shut it down.
For TvT...you have...the missile turret. If you're playing mech TvT that's basically all you have to stop drops that would be headed into your base. And now because of the speed boost if you want to play mech TvT you need many, many more turrets that you cannot afford because a bio Terran can literally speed boost over 5-6 turrets and guaranteed land his army into your base.
Anyone that plays mech vs bio often knows if you are backstabbed even once into your production the game is essentially over, especially on these maps with distant 3rds/4ths.
Just like void rays are a problem in PvP mirror right now because they out DPS stalkers + all ground and other units way too much...medivacs are a problem in TvT right now regardless of your style because they negate any defender advantage/terrain/any defense in place.
Something can be a problem in a mirror and not be in the other match-ups. Terran has ways to deal with void rays, so does Zerg (well perhaps not late late game), but it's the best thing or too good in the mirror.
If anyone read the Coach Park interview...if blizzard does change medivacs they should change the boost so there is a cost/risk to using it. Maybe have it drain the medivac's health, or drain energy - those are some things people in the community have throw around.
Everyone loves that aggressive play is possible, and HOTS definitely is more exciting to watch right now with mutas coming back, medivac drops being more viable, etc. but you know when something is ruining the mirror match-up or making it luck/coin-flip based it should be tweaked some.
For people that don't know, TvT right now basically any build you do is 10x better by making a medivac and putting anything inside of it, whether it's your first marines/hellions/widow mine, you get rewarded for blind aggression with no way to chase down the medivac or take it out (unless you get a lucky widow mine hit or the Terran fucks up). It's quite easy to luck out a win vs a superior Terran by doing this off 1 base right now.
Of course, we are still at the wait and see phase... even TvT...i think everyone can improve turret rings for mech vs bio by adding widow mines into the ring in places. The only problem with this though is it's a heavy cost at 2 supply to do this vs bio so it's inefficient.
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On March 21 2013 22:16 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 03:01 Doodsmack wrote:
I'm a Terran player and I don't think Medivacs and mines should be nerfed yet, but I will say its really funny to hear Terrans complain about tvt because of drops, but then argue for tosses and zergs to just have patience and figure it out. Such a perfect illustration (similar to Giantt's contradictions) of how retardedly biased people are in balance arguments.
What's also funny is that the vast majority of these players are losing due to their own terrible mistakes rather than balance. For the vast majority of players, their mistakes far outweigh balance in determining game outcomes. If you want to argue about pro games that's one thing (even though its arguable that if your game knowledge isn't pro level, then your opinion isn't worthwhile), but please stop being terrible at the game before complaining about balance. As amid master myself, I will readily admit how bad I am. I've never cared much about balance because I know I can easily overcome it by outplaying my terrible opponents.
TLDR: balance arguments are retarded. Z/P mechanics work differently than Terrans. P has feedback / planetary nexus / blink stalkers, Z has spine/spore defense + faster mutalisks + fungal. Notice all of those insta-gib the drop or lock it down or shut it down. For TvT...you have...the missile turret. If you're playing mech TvT that's basically all you have to stop drops that would be headed into your base. And now because of the speed boost if you want to play mech TvT you need many, many more turrets that you cannot afford because a bio Terran can literally speed boost over 5-6 turrets and guaranteed land his army into your base. Anyone that plays mech vs bio often knows if you are backstabbed even once into your production the game is essentially over, especially on these maps with distant 3rds/4ths. Just like void rays are a problem in PvP mirror right now because they out DPS stalkers + all ground and other units way too much...medivacs are a problem in TvT right now regardless of your style because they negate any defender advantage/terrain/any defense in place. Something can be a problem in a mirror and not be in the other match-ups. Terran has ways to deal with void rays, so does Zerg (well perhaps not late late game), but it's the best thing or too good in the mirror. If anyone read the Coach Park interview...if blizzard does change medivacs they should change the boost so there is a cost/risk to using it. Maybe have it drain the medivac's health, or drain energy - those are some things people in the community have throw around. Everyone loves that aggressive play is possible, and HOTS definitely is more exciting to watch right now with mutas coming back, medivac drops being more viable, etc. but you know when something is ruining the mirror match-up or making it luck/coin-flip based it should be tweaked some. For people that don't know, TvT right now basically any build you do is 10x better by making a medivac and putting anything inside of it, whether it's your first marines/hellions/widow mine, you get rewarded for blind aggression with no way to chase down the medivac or take it out (unless you get a lucky widow mine hit or the Terran fucks up). It's quite easy to luck out a win vs a superior Terran by doing this off 1 base right now. Of course, we are still at the wait and see phase... even TvT...i think everyone can improve turret rings for mech vs bio by adding widow mines into the ring in places. The only problem with this though is it's a heavy cost at 2 supply to do this vs bio so it's inefficient.
Avilo, all you want is one playstyle you can use in everygame, where you won't need to adapt, to scout and to analyze what your opponent is doing ...
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^I've had success with putting well placed bunkers behind a normal amount of turrets. One bunker plus a normal amount of turrets kills two boosted medivacs, anyway. Add a small number of well-placed mine and it can be done IMO. With two bunks and some mines youre talking 14-16 supply for the main I'd say. That's the downside but at least mech is supply efficient.
And as you say it's too early to judge, therefore it's contradictory to bitch about tvt but tell zergs and tosses to have patience.
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On March 21 2013 22:19 E.L.V.I.S wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 22:16 avilo wrote:On March 21 2013 03:01 Doodsmack wrote:
I'm a Terran player and I don't think Medivacs and mines should be nerfed yet, but I will say its really funny to hear Terrans complain about tvt because of drops, but then argue for tosses and zergs to just have patience and figure it out. Such a perfect illustration (similar to Giantt's contradictions) of how retardedly biased people are in balance arguments.
What's also funny is that the vast majority of these players are losing due to their own terrible mistakes rather than balance. For the vast majority of players, their mistakes far outweigh balance in determining game outcomes. If you want to argue about pro games that's one thing (even though its arguable that if your game knowledge isn't pro level, then your opinion isn't worthwhile), but please stop being terrible at the game before complaining about balance. As amid master myself, I will readily admit how bad I am. I've never cared much about balance because I know I can easily overcome it by outplaying my terrible opponents.
TLDR: balance arguments are retarded. Z/P mechanics work differently than Terrans. P has feedback / planetary nexus / blink stalkers, Z has spine/spore defense + faster mutalisks + fungal. Notice all of those insta-gib the drop or lock it down or shut it down. For TvT...you have...the missile turret. If you're playing mech TvT that's basically all you have to stop drops that would be headed into your base. And now because of the speed boost if you want to play mech TvT you need many, many more turrets that you cannot afford because a bio Terran can literally speed boost over 5-6 turrets and guaranteed land his army into your base. Anyone that plays mech vs bio often knows if you are backstabbed even once into your production the game is essentially over, especially on these maps with distant 3rds/4ths. Just like void rays are a problem in PvP mirror right now because they out DPS stalkers + all ground and other units way too much...medivacs are a problem in TvT right now regardless of your style because they negate any defender advantage/terrain/any defense in place. Something can be a problem in a mirror and not be in the other match-ups. Terran has ways to deal with void rays, so does Zerg (well perhaps not late late game), but it's the best thing or too good in the mirror. If anyone read the Coach Park interview...if blizzard does change medivacs they should change the boost so there is a cost/risk to using it. Maybe have it drain the medivac's health, or drain energy - those are some things people in the community have throw around. Everyone loves that aggressive play is possible, and HOTS definitely is more exciting to watch right now with mutas coming back, medivac drops being more viable, etc. but you know when something is ruining the mirror match-up or making it luck/coin-flip based it should be tweaked some. For people that don't know, TvT right now basically any build you do is 10x better by making a medivac and putting anything inside of it, whether it's your first marines/hellions/widow mine, you get rewarded for blind aggression with no way to chase down the medivac or take it out (unless you get a lucky widow mine hit or the Terran fucks up). It's quite easy to luck out a win vs a superior Terran by doing this off 1 base right now. Of course, we are still at the wait and see phase... even TvT...i think everyone can improve turret rings for mech vs bio by adding widow mines into the ring in places. The only problem with this though is it's a heavy cost at 2 supply to do this vs bio so it's inefficient. Avilo, all you want is one playstyle you can use in everygame, where you won't need to adapt, to scout and to analyze what your opponent is doing ...
For once I am with Avilo on this one. The medivac needs a limit on the number of boosts it can do in set period of time. Right now it can pull off at least 2 every minute of game play, which is to many. If it is energy cool, building up charges, or a much longer cool down, there needs risk to using the medivac boost and a “loss” if the drop fails. The opposing player also needs the breathing room if they hold off two or more drops, rather than being under constant threat of boosted drops.
Its not a question if the boost should be awesome, but how many boost the player’s get in a set period of time.
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My overview:
T: Medival boost need at least a research.
Mine : Reduce life.
No possibilities to transform transformer into helion.
P: Up gateway unit
Decrease life or damage of oracle or delay tech.
Nerf void damage
Reduce hallucination cost
Tempest shoot clever to no overkill.
Z:
Swarm hots more damage put less range.
Mutas : no idea. but something is wrong
Hydra : too strong now, reduce speed out of creep. or range.
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I didn't see till last night, that mines have same HP as hydras?
Hp needs to be lower.
Medivac booster will probabaly just get a slight nerf.
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On March 21 2013 22:42 BerthaG wrote:
My overview:
T: Medival boost need at least a research.
Mine : Reduce life.
No possibilities to transform transformer into helion.
P: Up gateway unit
Decrease life or damage of oracle or delay tech.
Nerf void damage
Reduce hallucination cost
Tempest shoot clever to no overkill.
Z:
Swarm hots more damage put less range.
Mutas : no idea. but something is wrong
Hydra : too strong now, reduce speed out of creep. or range.
Hydras don't need a nerf. They already require two upgrades and they still are so fragile.
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They should probably make the medivac take some small amount of damage when boosting or change how the boost accels so that it takes time for it to reach max speed.
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On March 21 2013 18:10 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 13:09 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:
For all you screaming that sc2 is horribly imbalanced compared to BW. Please do your research. If you took a timeline of BW major Korean championships and lined up the dates of BW And SC2, July would have just won zergs first title. Compared to about 20 titles for toss/Terran. This fact alone means y'all need to cut back on the balance whine and general QQ big time.
Don't be a part of this religion if you ain't read the bible! I don't know where you got your research from, but first of all Zerg was very present even in the beginning of Broodwar. Out of 10 OSL finals from the start, we had 7 with a Zerg in it. Out of 10 MSL finals we had 6 with zerg in it. 2004-2006 we had 8 MSLs and 5 were won by Zerg. Also you must take into consideration that maps played a big role in Broodwar, a lot more than in Starcraft 2. We had maps that were utterly in favor and/or abused of certain races and did help greatly. Overall Broodwar obviously is the far more balanced game, but that also took a lot more time and especially more games to achieve. Starcraft 2 is on a good path, but not as balanced as Broodwar. Also if you want to talk balance, even in 2000 and years after, there were lots of tournaments that you probably don't call major but a lot of people would and would be right. OSL and MSL were not the only big tournaments. Q-Starleague(s), WCG. 2nd Q-Starleague had a ZvZ finals as well as the WCG (2000). Overall at no point in time I would call a race to be inferior but the maps to be in favor of one of them.
Yes Yell0w had something like 5 silver medals in OSL/MSL in that time period. Thanks for completely mis-reading my statement which was "at this point in SC2 JulyZerg would have just won the first major trophy for Zerg". I never said Zerg didn't exist at the highest level but imagine if after Fruitdealer's win in the first Open Season GSL if no-one had won a major championship playing as Z until ST-Life's recent victory at MLG. You would be seeing waves of complaints from angry Z netizens crying imbalance; in fact if that had happened I have no doubt that Z would have received some HEAVY buffs to compensate.
Major trophy= OSL/MSL. Technically a Z won the first OSL before it was actually called the OSL therefore I consider it irrelevant as it wasn't even the same name it was simply the "Progamer Korean Open".... but simply checking my research on wiki or quoting the Starcraft Bible "In July '04, JulyZerg became the first Zerg to win the OSL...".
I don't care about the other tournaments as I only wanted to use this as a reference for my statement in order to show how silly a statement like "SC2 is horribly broken compared to BW, it will never be as balanced, it will never be as good".
The first MSL zerg trophy was Savior in August 2005.
Even if you include those other tourneys the results are like 3 zerg champs and 30+ T/P champs.....
I am not saying current SC2 is more balanced than BW was what I am saying is that we shouldn't moan that SC2 is on a bad path in regards to balance because statistically we have had a more well-rounded balance than BW. Yes the maps probably made a huge difference but that just shows how SC2 mapmaking has evolved into a place with boring, neutral maps for the most part. And I do think as Blizzard learns from the mistakes in made(biggest one for me was not using tourney maps on ladder) we will see more custom maps coming to prominence with more unorthodox features which may or may not suit one race but will compensate for this by every race/playstyle having a few maps that they prefer.
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On March 21 2013 22:42 BerthaG wrote:
Z:
Swarm hots more damage put less range.
Swarmhost have 30 base dps, stimmed marines have 10,5 dps (liquipedia). If you can´t avoid them they will wreak havoc. I would not consider buffing their damage in any way.
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On March 21 2013 22:32 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 22:19 E.L.V.I.S wrote:On March 21 2013 22:16 avilo wrote:On March 21 2013 03:01 Doodsmack wrote:
I'm a Terran player and I don't think Medivacs and mines should be nerfed yet, but I will say its really funny to hear Terrans complain about tvt because of drops, but then argue for tosses and zergs to just have patience and figure it out. Such a perfect illustration (similar to Giantt's contradictions) of how retardedly biased people are in balance arguments.
What's also funny is that the vast majority of these players are losing due to their own terrible mistakes rather than balance. For the vast majority of players, their mistakes far outweigh balance in determining game outcomes. If you want to argue about pro games that's one thing (even though its arguable that if your game knowledge isn't pro level, then your opinion isn't worthwhile), but please stop being terrible at the game before complaining about balance. As amid master myself, I will readily admit how bad I am. I've never cared much about balance because I know I can easily overcome it by outplaying my terrible opponents.
TLDR: balance arguments are retarded. Z/P mechanics work differently than Terrans. P has feedback / planetary nexus / blink stalkers, Z has spine/spore defense + faster mutalisks + fungal. Notice all of those insta-gib the drop or lock it down or shut it down. For TvT...you have...the missile turret. If you're playing mech TvT that's basically all you have to stop drops that would be headed into your base. And now because of the speed boost if you want to play mech TvT you need many, many more turrets that you cannot afford because a bio Terran can literally speed boost over 5-6 turrets and guaranteed land his army into your base. Anyone that plays mech vs bio often knows if you are backstabbed even once into your production the game is essentially over, especially on these maps with distant 3rds/4ths. Just like void rays are a problem in PvP mirror right now because they out DPS stalkers + all ground and other units way too much...medivacs are a problem in TvT right now regardless of your style because they negate any defender advantage/terrain/any defense in place. Something can be a problem in a mirror and not be in the other match-ups. Terran has ways to deal with void rays, so does Zerg (well perhaps not late late game), but it's the best thing or too good in the mirror. If anyone read the Coach Park interview...if blizzard does change medivacs they should change the boost so there is a cost/risk to using it. Maybe have it drain the medivac's health, or drain energy - those are some things people in the community have throw around. Everyone loves that aggressive play is possible, and HOTS definitely is more exciting to watch right now with mutas coming back, medivac drops being more viable, etc. but you know when something is ruining the mirror match-up or making it luck/coin-flip based it should be tweaked some. For people that don't know, TvT right now basically any build you do is 10x better by making a medivac and putting anything inside of it, whether it's your first marines/hellions/widow mine, you get rewarded for blind aggression with no way to chase down the medivac or take it out (unless you get a lucky widow mine hit or the Terran fucks up). It's quite easy to luck out a win vs a superior Terran by doing this off 1 base right now. Of course, we are still at the wait and see phase... even TvT...i think everyone can improve turret rings for mech vs bio by adding widow mines into the ring in places. The only problem with this though is it's a heavy cost at 2 supply to do this vs bio so it's inefficient. Avilo, all you want is one playstyle you can use in everygame, where you won't need to adapt, to scout and to analyze what your opponent is doing ... For once I am with Avilo on this one. The medivac needs a limit on the number of boosts it can do in set period of time. Right now it can pull off at least 2 every minute of game play, which is to many. If it is energy cool, building up charges, or a much longer cool down, there needs risk to using the medivac boost and a “loss” if the drop fails. The opposing player also needs the breathing room if they hold off two or more drops, rather than being under constant threat of boosted drops. Its not a question if the boost should be awesome, but how many boost the player’s get in a set period of time.
Energy is probably the best idea. The addition of bio healing skewed terran drops to be vastly in favor of bio. Terran players used to drop tanks, goliaths and vultures as well in BW. I rarely see hellions/hellbats being dropped outside of an early rush. Siege tank and thor drops are almost non-existent.
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On March 22 2013 01:32 andrewlt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 22:32 Plansix wrote:On March 21 2013 22:19 E.L.V.I.S wrote:On March 21 2013 22:16 avilo wrote:On March 21 2013 03:01 Doodsmack wrote:
I'm a Terran player and I don't think Medivacs and mines should be nerfed yet, but I will say its really funny to hear Terrans complain about tvt because of drops, but then argue for tosses and zergs to just have patience and figure it out. Such a perfect illustration (similar to Giantt's contradictions) of how retardedly biased people are in balance arguments.
What's also funny is that the vast majority of these players are losing due to their own terrible mistakes rather than balance. For the vast majority of players, their mistakes far outweigh balance in determining game outcomes. If you want to argue about pro games that's one thing (even though its arguable that if your game knowledge isn't pro level, then your opinion isn't worthwhile), but please stop being terrible at the game before complaining about balance. As amid master myself, I will readily admit how bad I am. I've never cared much about balance because I know I can easily overcome it by outplaying my terrible opponents.
TLDR: balance arguments are retarded. Z/P mechanics work differently than Terrans. P has feedback / planetary nexus / blink stalkers, Z has spine/spore defense + faster mutalisks + fungal. Notice all of those insta-gib the drop or lock it down or shut it down. For TvT...you have...the missile turret. If you're playing mech TvT that's basically all you have to stop drops that would be headed into your base. And now because of the speed boost if you want to play mech TvT you need many, many more turrets that you cannot afford because a bio Terran can literally speed boost over 5-6 turrets and guaranteed land his army into your base. Anyone that plays mech vs bio often knows if you are backstabbed even once into your production the game is essentially over, especially on these maps with distant 3rds/4ths. Just like void rays are a problem in PvP mirror right now because they out DPS stalkers + all ground and other units way too much...medivacs are a problem in TvT right now regardless of your style because they negate any defender advantage/terrain/any defense in place. Something can be a problem in a mirror and not be in the other match-ups. Terran has ways to deal with void rays, so does Zerg (well perhaps not late late game), but it's the best thing or too good in the mirror. If anyone read the Coach Park interview...if blizzard does change medivacs they should change the boost so there is a cost/risk to using it. Maybe have it drain the medivac's health, or drain energy - those are some things people in the community have throw around. Everyone loves that aggressive play is possible, and HOTS definitely is more exciting to watch right now with mutas coming back, medivac drops being more viable, etc. but you know when something is ruining the mirror match-up or making it luck/coin-flip based it should be tweaked some. For people that don't know, TvT right now basically any build you do is 10x better by making a medivac and putting anything inside of it, whether it's your first marines/hellions/widow mine, you get rewarded for blind aggression with no way to chase down the medivac or take it out (unless you get a lucky widow mine hit or the Terran fucks up). It's quite easy to luck out a win vs a superior Terran by doing this off 1 base right now. Of course, we are still at the wait and see phase... even TvT...i think everyone can improve turret rings for mech vs bio by adding widow mines into the ring in places. The only problem with this though is it's a heavy cost at 2 supply to do this vs bio so it's inefficient. Avilo, all you want is one playstyle you can use in everygame, where you won't need to adapt, to scout and to analyze what your opponent is doing ... For once I am with Avilo on this one. The medivac needs a limit on the number of boosts it can do in set period of time. Right now it can pull off at least 2 every minute of game play, which is to many. If it is energy cool, building up charges, or a much longer cool down, there needs risk to using the medivac boost and a “loss” if the drop fails. The opposing player also needs the breathing room if they hold off two or more drops, rather than being under constant threat of boosted drops. Its not a question if the boost should be awesome, but how many boost the player’s get in a set period of time. Energy is probably the best idea. The addition of bio healing skewed terran drops to be vastly in favor of bio. Terran players used to drop tanks, goliaths and vultures as well in BW. I rarely see hellions/hellbats being dropped outside of an early rush. Siege tank and thor drops are almost non-existent.
It would have to cost a lot of energy to make sure boosting twice in quick succession is a loss, maybe 75 or even 100. That way a doom drop of four or more medivacs—which has considerable reward if successful—will also have considerable risk if it fails and the player has to boost twice to get out, even if few or no units are lost.
It could also solve the insane mobility the 20 second CD afterburner gives Terran armies. Low energy medivacs may not be able to teleport away a cornered army, or if they do the Terran player loses his ability to heal for a while. They may also not be able to turn a losing engagement on its head by picking up the army and dropping it all over the enemy's bases, or if they do they won't be able to teleport the army safely back home before the enemy units arrive.
The main issue with the afterburner is not that it allows a Terran player to spirit away his units, it's that it allows him to do it every twenty seconds, again and again and again, at no cost.
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Really avilo even more qq now while terran is pretty balanced in hots? Rather than qq'ing and qq'ing and even more qq on these forums why don't you just play the game and get better. "Hey there I'm avilo and I'm a starcraft pro, you won't know me by my results but maybe you've seen my whiny posts on the internetz." You're just like cloud lol, many words no results. Maybe people would agree more with you when you'd have some results to back up your words.
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On March 21 2013 22:16 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 03:01 Doodsmack wrote:
I'm a Terran player and I don't think Medivacs and mines should be nerfed yet, but I will say its really funny to hear Terrans complain about tvt because of drops, but then argue for tosses and zergs to just have patience and figure it out. Such a perfect illustration (similar to Giantt's contradictions) of how retardedly biased people are in balance arguments.
What's also funny is that the vast majority of these players are losing due to their own terrible mistakes rather than balance. For the vast majority of players, their mistakes far outweigh balance in determining game outcomes. If you want to argue about pro games that's one thing (even though its arguable that if your game knowledge isn't pro level, then your opinion isn't worthwhile), but please stop being terrible at the game before complaining about balance. As amid master myself, I will readily admit how bad I am. I've never cared much about balance because I know I can easily overcome it by outplaying my terrible opponents.
TLDR: balance arguments are retarded. Z/P mechanics work differently than Terrans. P has feedback / planetary nexus / blink stalkers, Z has spine/spore defense + faster mutalisks + fungal. Notice all of those insta-gib the drop or lock it down or shut it down. For TvT...you have...the missile turret. If you're playing mech TvT that's basically all you have to stop drops that would be headed into your base. And now because of the speed boost if you want to play mech TvT you need many, many more turrets that you cannot afford because a bio Terran can literally speed boost over 5-6 turrets and guaranteed land his army into your base. Anyone that plays mech vs bio often knows if you are backstabbed even once into your production the game is essentially over, especially on these maps with distant 3rds/4ths. Just like void rays are a problem in PvP mirror right now because they out DPS stalkers + all ground and other units way too much...medivacs are a problem in TvT right now regardless of your style because they negate any defender advantage/terrain/any defense in place. Something can be a problem in a mirror and not be in the other match-ups. Terran has ways to deal with void rays, so does Zerg (well perhaps not late late game), but it's the best thing or too good in the mirror. If anyone read the Coach Park interview...if blizzard does change medivacs they should change the boost so there is a cost/risk to using it. Maybe have it drain the medivac's health, or drain energy - those are some things people in the community have throw around. Everyone loves that aggressive play is possible, and HOTS definitely is more exciting to watch right now with mutas coming back, medivac drops being more viable, etc. but you know when something is ruining the mirror match-up or making it luck/coin-flip based it should be tweaked some. For people that don't know, TvT right now basically any build you do is 10x better by making a medivac and putting anything inside of it, whether it's your first marines/hellions/widow mine, you get rewarded for blind aggression with no way to chase down the medivac or take it out (unless you get a lucky widow mine hit or the Terran fucks up). It's quite easy to luck out a win vs a superior Terran by doing this off 1 base right now. Of course, we are still at the wait and see phase... even TvT...i think everyone can improve turret rings for mech vs bio by adding widow mines into the ring in places. The only problem with this though is it's a heavy cost at 2 supply to do this vs bio so it's inefficient.
You are very biased.
What about widow mines to stop drops, why didnt you count that unit
And what about vikings, long range air
Dont tell me "but htey are useless they just their speed when they see these units" No! Put up smart defensive if he use speed he will move into turrets, and have widowmines infront and vikings can do fabolous
And for the protoss, he have blink and feedback, ye if he invest alots of gas which by the way, medivacs comealong waybefore you have those things
Medivac come also before mutalisk play and you talk about fungal? wtf, the medivac can easily dodge that, not 100% dodge but not as reliable anymore
and again you have medivac before fungal even.
As i see it, terran have more reliable things against drops than protoss and zerg!
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Also this community is so whiny the game has just been released, after the first days all the bronze-master noobers already started to cry IMBA IMBA IMBA. I think DK is right this time, just wait first. Or just nerf everything like in wol and end up with a shitty no fun game that wasn't even balanced.
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All medivacs need is a longer CD on the boost. It is that simple. Make sure you have to decide before you go in with your doom drop if you want to use your boost to get in fast or to get out fast. That way it is up to the player and about decision making. I dont like the energy idea because that way it becomes more random and maybe you have energy left, maybe you dont. If you know what i mean ^^
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Agreed with the disagreement with Avilo's statement. Dude says "T have only 1 thing to block drops."
-Turrets
-Planetary(ok this is for 4th base+ but still means you don't need as much army as you would to guard a orbital).
-Widow Mines(2 supply for the chance to instakill 1 medivac and do heavy damage to others/singlehandedly kill marine squads off with 1 shot)
-Tanks(As mech I always used to leave 1 tank per base anyways because you should be spreading tanks in order to cover 3 bases, even in WoL with good turret rings a few units could get out and this would clean them up along with reinforcements/a few helions).
-Sensor towers(they wont be very good drops if you can get 10-20 seconds of warning).
-Vikings(You should be building vikings with mech anyways. firstly so that they dont just doomdrop marauders on your tanks and GG you lose ala boxer vs taeja or ganzi. secondly for tank vision and to keep the medivac count down if he is sloppy; either way you are going to kill medis or he is going to lose marines chasing you off into tank range. Third reason is anti-drop.)
A combination of these things is the answer, not "its impossible they always get through". yes 6 medivacs may be able to clear a turret ring but if they had vikings picking at them to weaken em, a tank+helions for fighting with maybe 1-2 widow mines per base, and a sensor tower so you can see em coming? Thats a cost-inefficient drop IMO.
And TBH I think you should be able to punish a meching Terran easier than in WoL. Too many times in my own games I would find that they have 3 vikings patrolling+ a couple good turret placements and any drops are WAYYY too in-efficient, and then he would max out on 3 bases and it was GG. Now you have a higher likelyhood to break the meching player's production IF HE IS UNPREPARED . Even in TvZ/TvP I felt like this, like your opponent had to be worse/unprepared for drops to be successful, because a good player won't respond to pressure on the other side of the map by weakining his base defences unless it genuinely is desperate. If anything this just means Terran has to split better and be prepared like Z/P have to against us already, which only leads to better games. If your really going to cry because a 6 medivac doom drop flies over 2-3 turrets with minimal losses....god help us all.
Remember as mech its not like you need 150 food in your deathball to walk around the map harassing. You should primarily be playing defensive while using helions, hellbat and mine drops, and even stuff like viking/banshee off-timings to apply pressure. So you really shouldn't have a "ball" that is going to miss those extra units. Even when you do push out, a smart mech player should know that as long as you dont put yourself in a position to where your opponent is hitting from 2+ angles with a huge concave, your main army with ups will trade so cost-efficiently that a straight up fight is nigh-on impossible for the bio player unless he can force the engagement in the optimal position. So it should be obvious strategic logic "hes going to want to basetrade me, so his main army wont be as strong, so i can afford to split my army in order to prevent one of the ways he can beat me(backstabs)."
I think alot of players get caught up in the "i have 200/200 with 2-2, i should F2 towards the opponent so i can crush him". For those of you who played baseball, you know that a common way for errors is the kid who fields the ground ball with plenty of time to get it to 1st but tries to get the guy out by a mile and misses the throw, when he could have taken the time to calmly throw the ball. You only need to get em out by a fraction, inch or a mile winning is winning!
And finally; Avilo dude. Your a progamer apparently. Why are you on these forums whining constantly about the issues you find? If me and a bunch of other mid-master players are able to think up these solutions that work for usI don't see how you could not have considered them. I find it hard to believe that what works pretty good for masters Terrans is unviable for a GM Terran. If anything your more likely to succeed with it because your "smarter" GM player will have considered the points in my last sentence and decided a backstab is the best tactic rather than a master T who will just desperation attack your army. I agreed with a lot of the stuff you used to say about BL/infestor and also about the Raven but this argument I've read in this thread is ridiculous.
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On March 22 2013 05:27 Fjodorov wrote:
All medivacs need is a longer CD on the boost. It is that simple. Make sure you have to decide before you go in with your doom drop if you want to use your boost to get in fast or to get out fast. That way it is up to the player and about decision making. I dont like the energy idea because that way it becomes more random and maybe you have energy left, maybe you dont. If you know what i mean ^^
I could be impartial to a slight increase in cooldown if it proves to continue to be an issue but in the interest of the game I think we should wait until atleast 1st GSL trophy to be decided to see if after a month or two of prep if S-level Koreans can deal with the medivacs.
And removal/energy cost/damage just seems like a stupid idea.
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EPT
