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Cloak
Profile Joined October 2009
United States816 Posts
March 21 2013 20:41 GMT
#821
On March 22 2013 05:27 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:
Agreed with the disagreement with Avilo's statement. Dude says "T have only 1 thing to block drops."

-Turrets
-Planetary(ok this is for 4th base+ but still means you don't need as much army as you would to guard a orbital).
-Widow Mines(2 supply for the chance to instakill 1 medivac and do heavy damage to others/singlehandedly kill marine squads off with 1 shot)
-Tanks(As mech I always used to leave 1 tank per base anyways because you should be spreading tanks in order to cover 3 bases, even in WoL with good turret rings a few units could get out and this would clean them up along with reinforcements/a few helions).
-Sensor towers(they wont be very good drops if you can get 10-20 seconds of warning).
-Vikings(You should be building vikings with mech anyways. firstly so that they dont just doomdrop marauders on your tanks and GG you lose ala boxer vs taeja or ganzi. secondly for tank vision and to keep the medivac count down if he is sloppy; either way you are going to kill medis or he is going to lose marines chasing you off into tank range. Third reason is anti-drop.)

A combination of these things is the answer, not "its impossible they always get through". yes 6 medivacs may be able to clear a turret ring but if they had vikings picking at them to weaken em, a tank+helions for fighting with maybe 1-2 widow mines per base, and a sensor tower so you can see em coming? Thats a cost-inefficient drop IMO.

And TBH I think you should be able to punish a meching Terran easier than in WoL. Too many times in my own games I would find that they have 3 vikings patrolling+ a couple good turret placements and any drops are WAYYY too in-efficient, and then he would max out on 3 bases and it was GG. Now you have a higher likelyhood to break the meching player's production IF HE IS UNPREPARED . Even in TvZ/TvP I felt like this, like your opponent had to be worse/unprepared for drops to be successful, because a good player won't respond to pressure on the other side of the map by weakining his base defences unless it genuinely is desperate. If anything this just means Terran has to split better and be prepared like Z/P have to against us already, which only leads to better games. If your really going to cry because a 6 medivac doom drop flies over 2-3 turrets with minimal losses....god help us all.

Remember as mech its not like you need 150 food in your deathball to walk around the map harassing. You should primarily be playing defensive while using helions, hellbat and mine drops, and even stuff like viking/banshee off-timings to apply pressure. So you really shouldn't have a "ball" that is going to miss those extra units. Even when you do push out, a smart mech player should know that as long as you dont put yourself in a position to where your opponent is hitting from 2+ angles with a huge concave, your main army with ups will trade so cost-efficiently that a straight up fight is nigh-on impossible for the bio player unless he can force the engagement in the optimal position. So it should be obvious strategic logic "hes going to want to basetrade me, so his main army wont be as strong, so i can afford to split my army in order to prevent one of the ways he can beat me(backstabs)."

I think alot of players get caught up in the "i have 200/200 with 2-2, i should F2 towards the opponent so i can crush him". For those of you who played baseball, you know that a common way for errors is the kid who fields the ground ball with plenty of time to get it to 1st but tries to get the guy out by a mile and misses the throw, when he could have taken the time to calmly throw the ball. You only need to get em out by a fraction, inch or a mile winning is winning!

And finally; Avilo dude. Your a progamer apparently. Why are you on these forums whining constantly about the issues you find? If me and a bunch of other mid-master players are able to think up these solutions that work for usI don't see how you could not have considered them. I find it hard to believe that what works pretty good for masters Terrans is unviable for a GM Terran. If anything your more likely to succeed with it because your "smarter" GM player will have considered the points in my last sentence and decided a backstab is the best tactic rather than a master T who will just desperation attack your army. I agreed with a lot of the stuff you used to say about BL/infestor and also about the Raven but this argument I've read in this thread is ridiculous.


You forgot Terran's own defensive Medivacs are just as nimble as the offensive Medivacs.
The more you know, the less you understand.
SolidMoose
Profile Joined June 2011
United States1240 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-21 21:18:59
March 21 2013 21:18 GMT
#822
The only change that would even make a little sense for medivacs is perhaps a 5-10 second increase on the cooldown. The only possible problem right now is that you can boost in and have a decent chance to boost out as well. The risk/reward factor needs to be that boosting in means you probably won't be able to boost out unless you hold out for awhile.

Using energy/health/research is a completely over the top nerf at this point.

EDIT - looks like someone said this before me as well
Sandermatt
Profile Joined December 2010
Switzerland1365 Posts
March 21 2013 21:23 GMT
#823
I would really prefer medivacs boost to be energy based. Having cooldown abilities on an energy based units just seems strange.
TimENT
Profile Joined November 2012
United States1425 Posts
March 21 2013 21:29 GMT
#824
My wish list for the next patch:
1. When the medivac uses the boosters it takes 1.5 more damage. Reason: the unit adds an exciting element to the game but there is no risk.

2. Very minor nerf to the blast radius of the widow mine. Reason: Lings and mutas are hard countered a bit too hard by mine fields.

3. Merge the overlord speed upgrade with the overlord drop upgrade. Reason: I want to see bane bombs again!

4. Increase the overall speed of warp prisms. Reason: less deathbally Protoss

5. Do something about Corruptors. Reason: they are so boring. Make them more anti muta for ZvZ

6. Do something about Void Rays. Reason: dominate PvP and aren't exciting at all

Barcelona / Arsenal Fan!
Erik.TheRed
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1655 Posts
March 21 2013 21:31 GMT
#825
On March 22 2013 06:23 Sandermatt wrote:
I would really prefer medivacs boost to be energy based. Having cooldown abilities on an energy based units just seems strange.


This would actually be somewhat of a nerf to protoss since high energy medivacs take more damage from feedback. In the past terrans would have to pre-stim to make sure that the medivacs didn't get one-shot before doing a drop.
"See you space cowboy"
GaNgStaRR.ElV
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada535 Posts
March 21 2013 22:07 GMT
#826
On March 22 2013 05:41 Cloak wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 22 2013 05:27 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:
Agreed with the disagreement with Avilo's statement. Dude says "T have only 1 thing to block drops."

-Turrets
-Planetary(ok this is for 4th base+ but still means you don't need as much army as you would to guard a orbital).
-Widow Mines(2 supply for the chance to instakill 1 medivac and do heavy damage to others/singlehandedly kill marine squads off with 1 shot)
-Tanks(As mech I always used to leave 1 tank per base anyways because you should be spreading tanks in order to cover 3 bases, even in WoL with good turret rings a few units could get out and this would clean them up along with reinforcements/a few helions).
-Sensor towers(they wont be very good drops if you can get 10-20 seconds of warning).
-Vikings(You should be building vikings with mech anyways. firstly so that they dont just doomdrop marauders on your tanks and GG you lose ala boxer vs taeja or ganzi. secondly for tank vision and to keep the medivac count down if he is sloppy; either way you are going to kill medis or he is going to lose marines chasing you off into tank range. Third reason is anti-drop.)

A combination of these things is the answer, not "its impossible they always get through". yes 6 medivacs may be able to clear a turret ring but if they had vikings picking at them to weaken em, a tank+helions for fighting with maybe 1-2 widow mines per base, and a sensor tower so you can see em coming? Thats a cost-inefficient drop IMO.

And TBH I think you should be able to punish a meching Terran easier than in WoL. Too many times in my own games I would find that they have 3 vikings patrolling+ a couple good turret placements and any drops are WAYYY too in-efficient, and then he would max out on 3 bases and it was GG. Now you have a higher likelyhood to break the meching player's production IF HE IS UNPREPARED . Even in TvZ/TvP I felt like this, like your opponent had to be worse/unprepared for drops to be successful, because a good player won't respond to pressure on the other side of the map by weakining his base defences unless it genuinely is desperate. If anything this just means Terran has to split better and be prepared like Z/P have to against us already, which only leads to better games. If your really going to cry because a 6 medivac doom drop flies over 2-3 turrets with minimal losses....god help us all.

Remember as mech its not like you need 150 food in your deathball to walk around the map harassing. You should primarily be playing defensive while using helions, hellbat and mine drops, and even stuff like viking/banshee off-timings to apply pressure. So you really shouldn't have a "ball" that is going to miss those extra units. Even when you do push out, a smart mech player should know that as long as you dont put yourself in a position to where your opponent is hitting from 2+ angles with a huge concave, your main army with ups will trade so cost-efficiently that a straight up fight is nigh-on impossible for the bio player unless he can force the engagement in the optimal position. So it should be obvious strategic logic "hes going to want to basetrade me, so his main army wont be as strong, so i can afford to split my army in order to prevent one of the ways he can beat me(backstabs)."

I think alot of players get caught up in the "i have 200/200 with 2-2, i should F2 towards the opponent so i can crush him". For those of you who played baseball, you know that a common way for errors is the kid who fields the ground ball with plenty of time to get it to 1st but tries to get the guy out by a mile and misses the throw, when he could have taken the time to calmly throw the ball. You only need to get em out by a fraction, inch or a mile winning is winning!

And finally; Avilo dude. Your a progamer apparently. Why are you on these forums whining constantly about the issues you find? If me and a bunch of other mid-master players are able to think up these solutions that work for usI don't see how you could not have considered them. I find it hard to believe that what works pretty good for masters Terrans is unviable for a GM Terran. If anything your more likely to succeed with it because your "smarter" GM player will have considered the points in my last sentence and decided a backstab is the best tactic rather than a master T who will just desperation attack your army. I agreed with a lot of the stuff you used to say about BL/infestor and also about the Raven but this argument I've read in this thread is ridiculous.


You forgot Terran's own defensive Medivacs are just as nimble as the offensive Medivacs.


Good point I was just addressing the bio vs mech concerns to be honest so i didnt really think it was relevant.
eXdeath
Profile Joined August 2011
France66 Posts
March 21 2013 22:28 GMT
#827
On March 22 2013 06:29 TimENT wrote:

5. Do something about Corruptors. Reason: they are so boring. Make them more anti muta for ZvZ



Would a bonus against light units make them too powerful?

It could solve the mutalisks problem and also make them better against mass phoenixes (who finally counter mutalisks properly but are a bit too strong vs corruptor with the full range?)
eviltomahawk
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States11135 Posts
March 21 2013 22:38 GMT
#828
On March 22 2013 07:28 eXdeath wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 22 2013 06:29 TimENT wrote:

5. Do something about Corruptors. Reason: they are so boring. Make them more anti muta for ZvZ



Would a bonus against light units make them too powerful?

It could solve the mutalisks problem and also make them better against mass phoenixes (who finally counter mutalisks properly but are a bit too strong vs corruptor with the full range?)

Well, Corruptors already have their bonus against massive, which makes them rather important in countering stuff like capital ships and Colossi. I don't recall any units having multiple damage bonuses, and I think removing their bonus damage against massive leaves a rather glaring hole in Zerg's anti-air capabilities.
ㅇㅅㅌㅅ
RogerChillingworth
Profile Joined March 2010
Chad3132 Posts
March 21 2013 22:43 GMT
#829
corruptors are definitely the thing to look at for zerg. everything else, imo, seems to be in a decent place. it would help slightly in all match-ups without breaking the game. they're just super mediocre on paper and often quite lackluster when you need them most.

a slight damage bonus would;

-help vs skytoss gayness
-help even more against warpspeedivacs
-wanting to do something about muta without going muta yourself or doing the roach/hydra/infestor thing
ZjiublingZ
Profile Joined September 2011
United Arab Emirates439 Posts
March 21 2013 22:43 GMT
#830
On March 22 2013 07:38 eviltomahawk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 22 2013 07:28 eXdeath wrote:
On March 22 2013 06:29 TimENT wrote:

5. Do something about Corruptors. Reason: they are so boring. Make them more anti muta for ZvZ



Would a bonus against light units make them too powerful?

It could solve the mutalisks problem and also make them better against mass phoenixes (who finally counter mutalisks properly but are a bit too strong vs corruptor with the full range?)

Well, Corruptors already have their bonus against massive, which makes them rather important in countering stuff like capital ships and Colossi. I don't recall any units having multiple damage bonuses, and I think removing their bonus damage against massive leaves a rather glaring hole in Zerg's anti-air capabilities.


Void Rays HAD bonus vs armored and bonus vs massive in WoL.

(also you could say Banelings vs Light AND Structures if you really wanted to get picky)
Giriath
Profile Joined May 2011
Sweden2412 Posts
March 21 2013 23:05 GMT
#831
On March 22 2013 05:27 Fjodorov wrote:
All medivacs need is a longer CD on the boost. It is that simple. Make sure you have to decide before you go in with your doom drop if you want to use your boost to get in fast or to get out fast. That way it is up to the player and about decision making. I dont like the energy idea because that way it becomes more random and maybe you have energy left, maybe you dont. If you know what i mean ^^


They should wait at least until after the first HotS season of GSL, and decide what if any nerf they want to implement then. I agree that increased CD by about 10-20 seconds may be a wise way to test the waters if they decide to nerf, but an energy cost to afterburner is not random—you can simply turn off auto-heal on some medivacs or not engage with them at all if you want to save some energy for afterburner.

It's not just an issue with drops. A CD of 40 seconds will still allow a cornered army to teleport to safety or enemy bases, whereas an energy cost leaves the Terran with the decision to either forgo some healing in engagements or forsake his ability to teleport using afterburner.

I really don't think it's fair that a forcefielded or surrounded Terran army can boost away and split up between enemy bases in low-energy medivacs to possibly wreak havoc on them all, probably killing many enemy units too, as they either have to split up or let some of the Terran drops get away.
Education should be our seniors guiding us to be "who" we want to be, not "what" we want to be.
eviltomahawk
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States11135 Posts
March 21 2013 23:12 GMT
#832
On March 22 2013 07:43 ZjiublingZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 22 2013 07:38 eviltomahawk wrote:
On March 22 2013 07:28 eXdeath wrote:
On March 22 2013 06:29 TimENT wrote:

5. Do something about Corruptors. Reason: they are so boring. Make them more anti muta for ZvZ



Would a bonus against light units make them too powerful?

It could solve the mutalisks problem and also make them better against mass phoenixes (who finally counter mutalisks properly but are a bit too strong vs corruptor with the full range?)

Well, Corruptors already have their bonus against massive, which makes them rather important in countering stuff like capital ships and Colossi. I don't recall any units having multiple damage bonuses, and I think removing their bonus damage against massive leaves a rather glaring hole in Zerg's anti-air capabilities.


Void Rays HAD bonus vs armored and bonus vs massive in WoL.

(also you could say Banelings vs Light AND Structures if you really wanted to get picky)

Oh yes, I completely forgot about WoL Void Rays, although it was a 20% bonus against massive on top of the bonus against armored, with all massive units already being armored. However, a bonus against both light and massive seems kinda wonky.
ㅇㅅㅌㅅ
RevTiberius
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada353 Posts
March 21 2013 23:14 GMT
#833
I know this is meant to make the game better, but forcing every m/u into hyper aggressive game play is not progress in my opinion
Teaching Chess to a Starcraft 2 Grandmaster: http://revtiberius.blogspot.ca
Instigata
Profile Joined April 2004
United States546 Posts
March 21 2013 23:14 GMT
#834
We should wait until we see what the GSL guys can do, especially the 4 different zerg finalists and DRG. We already know Life can handle T and P. Who cares about winrates or tourney results based on foreigners. If you start caring about that then how about some Terran buffs so foreigner Terrans could win something meaningful throughout the entire WoL era and probably HOTS too.
SC2 was doomed from the start.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
March 21 2013 23:32 GMT
#835
On March 22 2013 08:14 RevTiberius wrote:
I know this is meant to make the game better, but forcing every m/u into hyper aggressive game play is not progress in my opinion


Well 15 minute macro games into 200/200 battles was pretty bad. NO one liked that either.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Dalavita
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden1113 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-22 00:04:37
March 22 2013 00:04 GMT
#836
On March 22 2013 08:14 RevTiberius wrote:
I know this is meant to make the game better, but forcing every m/u into hyper aggressive game play is not progress in my opinion


Hyper aggressive play that transitions into the lategame is actually the perfect type of progress in my opinion.

All the kinds of harasses I've seen so far (with the possible exception of mass oracle?) doesn't have the potential to end the game unless one person screws up or there's a big skill difference, but it still gives plenty of opportunities to come out with good chunks of damage if you play right. Sounds good to me.
ZjiublingZ
Profile Joined September 2011
United Arab Emirates439 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-22 00:27:08
March 22 2013 00:25 GMT
#837
On March 22 2013 08:12 eviltomahawk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 22 2013 07:43 ZjiublingZ wrote:
On March 22 2013 07:38 eviltomahawk wrote:
On March 22 2013 07:28 eXdeath wrote:
On March 22 2013 06:29 TimENT wrote:

5. Do something about Corruptors. Reason: they are so boring. Make them more anti muta for ZvZ



Would a bonus against light units make them too powerful?

It could solve the mutalisks problem and also make them better against mass phoenixes (who finally counter mutalisks properly but are a bit too strong vs corruptor with the full range?)

Well, Corruptors already have their bonus against massive, which makes them rather important in countering stuff like capital ships and Colossi. I don't recall any units having multiple damage bonuses, and I think removing their bonus damage against massive leaves a rather glaring hole in Zerg's anti-air capabilities.


Void Rays HAD bonus vs armored and bonus vs massive in WoL.

(also you could say Banelings vs Light AND Structures if you really wanted to get picky)

Oh yes, I completely forgot about WoL Void Rays, although it was a 20% bonus against massive on top of the bonus against armored, with all massive units already being armored. However, a bonus against both light and massive seems kinda wonky.


Archons are Massive, but not Armored.

EDIT: But I do understand your point. Though I do think that gameplay should trump intuitiveness in all situations (not saying I agree that Corruptors should be light though, I don't think it would be good for PvZ).
dAPhREAk
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Nauru12397 Posts
March 22 2013 00:30 GMT
#838
On March 22 2013 06:23 Sandermatt wrote:
I would really prefer medivacs boost to be energy based. Having cooldown abilities on an energy based units just seems strange.

this would be so funny. fill medivac with hellions or mines and then boost boost boost boost boost boost until the medivac gets to the opponent's base from your own base, almost completely negating rush distances. =D protoss would scout medivac with obs in your base and think he has a minute or so to reach, but the medivac is in his base in 20 secs. lol.
NapkinBox
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
United States314 Posts
March 22 2013 00:43 GMT
#839
On March 22 2013 09:04 Dalavita wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 22 2013 08:14 RevTiberius wrote:
I know this is meant to make the game better, but forcing every m/u into hyper aggressive game play is not progress in my opinion


Hyper aggressive play that transitions into the lategame is actually the perfect type of progress in my opinion.

All the kinds of harasses I've seen so far (with the possible exception of mass oracle?) doesn't have the potential to end the game unless one person screws up or there's a big skill difference, but it still gives plenty of opportunities to come out with good chunks of damage if you play right. Sounds good to me.


It's great that HotS let each race have a chance to be more active, but the problem I see is that hyper aggression is now not an option, but a do or die; forcing it just loses the strategical depth imo.
"Who has the best durability feat in all of comic book superheroes?" "Aquaman surviving pop culture."
blade55555
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States17423 Posts
March 22 2013 00:45 GMT
#840
On March 22 2013 09:43 NAPoleonSC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 22 2013 09:04 Dalavita wrote:
On March 22 2013 08:14 RevTiberius wrote:
I know this is meant to make the game better, but forcing every m/u into hyper aggressive game play is not progress in my opinion


Hyper aggressive play that transitions into the lategame is actually the perfect type of progress in my opinion.

All the kinds of harasses I've seen so far (with the possible exception of mass oracle?) doesn't have the potential to end the game unless one person screws up or there's a big skill difference, but it still gives plenty of opportunities to come out with good chunks of damage if you play right. Sounds good to me.


It's great that HotS let each race have a chance to be more active, but the problem I see is that hyper aggression is now not an option, but a do or die; forcing it just loses the strategical depth imo.


This isn't true. Terran can be hyper aggressive (reaper opening then hellion/reaper aggression + medivac drops) and it's not a do or die. It denies creep spread, can get a few drones, sometimes just does a lot more damage then you expect, sometimes less, etc. But it's not a do or die.
When I think of something else, something will go here
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