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I don't understand how people are saying it causes turtling. I mean what we have now is turtling....and it's just as strong.
Highground advantage in maps in the current map pool would be huge.
Cloud Kingdom=Take the middle of the map with tanks, seige hosts Collosi and you have a good hold. That would then encourage people to run AROUND the middle instead of just pushing through the middle the WHOLE game.
Antiga= Holding the Mid ground again will mean you can control the map alot more. If we minus the watch tower out of the map, It would allow for GREAT run arounds/drops etc. Yes, the bases are up on the high ground too, but there are answers around it. Air units will be stonger on maps with high bases, as they will get up close and personal with the seige units, and then if your anti air units are in the base defending that, you run your bulk army straight at the mid to take it back. Every race has units that will be able to push that (Speed Zealots, Lings, Stim Marines). You just have to push up close to negate the high ground advantage.
Akilon= You have those sides that will Give high ground advantage, but also split the army in half if you want to control both. The map is big enough that you can run behind one seige position, and it's downhill, meaning breaking those seige lines that cover the middle of the map will give YOU the defenders advantage.
Daybreak and the others= Current forms would give STRONG defenders advantage to the base, and would cause turtling as their is no high grounds in the middle of the map. Giving maps more varied terrain, more up hills and down hills, would cause HUGE differences in the way games are played out.
I'm up for them testing these in Beta, and then if HOTS is released more testing on a PTR or a few of those call to action maps would be AWESOME!
Also, wasn't lack of Terrain advantage part of the reasons why SupeRouman quit mapmaking?
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On February 02 2013 14:40 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2013 13:21 sunglasseson wrote:On February 02 2013 12:23 sitromit wrote:
So more turtling? No thank you. this is the new generation response to improving the game. he doesnt mean high ground must work like this he means that positional advantage is a skill that is lacking in the game. sc2 is so bad skill wise compared to brood war. its very often that build orders crush and the current best race cleans house. its common that a far better player loses to a far worse simply because the race vs race dynamic in sc2 is so horribly imbalanced and since control is so easy, it magnifys the problems. in broodwar protoss was an easier race to macro but just because he can make an army doesnt mean he can use it as well as say another much better zerg/terran could and he gets crushed. in sc2 its VERY easy to max and VERY easy to control said max army so there needs to be some way for the better play to trounce the lesser one I disagree
what do you disagree with lol. its literally impossible to disagree since i didnt post my pov, i posted a fact. sc2 is a 10x easier game as a whole and often times a lesser player wins when he may have deserved to lose or isnt capable of earning a win through mastery of the game as a whole
forums usually frustrate me i wish there was a top 8 masters finish requirement to post or something similar
sc2 lacks less in terrain mechanic defenders adv as it does in unit defenders advantage. the idea of defenders advantage isnt a stoppage of attack or favorable advantage towards an attack, its more or less a slowing down of an attack or risk of severe loss. defenders advantage doesnt mean 10 marines beat 20 or 15 or even 12, it means they have to wait for 15 or 20 which stalls and gives you more time or else he cant cost effectively continue the push. furthermore people keep talking about how we have turtle fests atm. we have turtle fests atm because armys are SO fast in sc2 that taking bases past 3 is often times impossible. ever been behind PvZ? good because u CANNOT recover from being behind in PvZ as the toss and often times zerg. in fact most matchups once you are behind after ONE fight, lead you to death. ZvZ is a bad matchup because of speedlings though people often dont understand that and PvP is bad because of warp ins. whats the common factor? high speed almost instantaneous attacks from speedlings and warping in across the map. RALLY times are defenders adv boys and girls and sc2 has fast units and easy macro mechanics that negate rally points and thus defenders advantage.
dustin browder has said he wont make the AI worse so that the game is like broodwar and so you then all go on to argue the following.....
dustin browder says we cant fix problem A and B
ok guys lets talk about problem C then this is the reason the game isnt good
no actually its because of problem A and B
well we cant fix problem A and B so if problem C isnt the solution what does that mean?
it means the game is beyond repair just like wow, diablo, wc3 and every other pvp game blizzard makes and will make
the game will have a semblance of balance at periods of time but the core issues will NEVER be fixed
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I am thinking pure selfish here, but maps would be designed so much more amazing with one of these options.
It would need some unit tweeking aswell, as zerg who has lings just won't give a poop about highground or not.
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On February 02 2013 15:34 sunglasseson wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2013 14:40 Emzeeshady wrote:On February 02 2013 13:21 sunglasseson wrote:On February 02 2013 12:23 sitromit wrote:
So more turtling? No thank you. this is the new generation response to improving the game. he doesnt mean high ground must work like this he means that positional advantage is a skill that is lacking in the game. sc2 is so bad skill wise compared to brood war. its very often that build orders crush and the current best race cleans house. its common that a far better player loses to a far worse simply because the race vs race dynamic in sc2 is so horribly imbalanced and since control is so easy, it magnifys the problems. in broodwar protoss was an easier race to macro but just because he can make an army doesnt mean he can use it as well as say another much better zerg/terran could and he gets crushed. in sc2 its VERY easy to max and VERY easy to control said max army so there needs to be some way for the better play to trounce the lesser one I disagree what do you disagree with lol. its literally impossible to disagree since i didnt post my pov, i posted a fact. sc2 is a 10x easier game as a whole and often times a lesser player wins when he may have deserved to lose or isnt capable of earning a win through mastery of the game as a whole forums usually frustrate me i wish there was a top 8 masters finish requirement to post or something similar
And then you start pulling numbers out of your ass ... thumbs down you started reasonable.
10x ... really ?
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the only reason turtle play is so powerful is how difficult it is to stop a max army from just rolling out and crashing into your front door. the high ground advantage isn't to help you defend your natural ramp, it is to make it possible for someone to realistically engage a deathball army before it's too late.
i support greater high ground advantage so that it's possible to play super greedily without being stuck up your natural ramp all game.
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you cant fix problem C without fixing A and B nothing said here can ever change this. its a building and the foundation cannot be added upon untill its first made stable
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I think people need to realize that if changes with this went through, maps would be very different. You probably wouldn't still have a main on upper levels w/ nat & third on medium level and the rest of the map on the lower level.
Instead, maybe your main is on middle ground, with higher ground areas and pods positioned around the map to help defend expansions or positional army movement.
Maps currently basically have to have all of the high ground at your main and natural because it's only effective early and mid game. With these suggested changes they would be easier to defend by default, allowing mapmakers more room to explore different main-nat-third set-ups that are more open and varied in height levels.
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On February 02 2013 15:38 Lysanias wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2013 15:34 sunglasseson wrote:On February 02 2013 14:40 Emzeeshady wrote:On February 02 2013 13:21 sunglasseson wrote:On February 02 2013 12:23 sitromit wrote:
So more turtling? No thank you. this is the new generation response to improving the game. he doesnt mean high ground must work like this he means that positional advantage is a skill that is lacking in the game. sc2 is so bad skill wise compared to brood war. its very often that build orders crush and the current best race cleans house. its common that a far better player loses to a far worse simply because the race vs race dynamic in sc2 is so horribly imbalanced and since control is so easy, it magnifys the problems. in broodwar protoss was an easier race to macro but just because he can make an army doesnt mean he can use it as well as say another much better zerg/terran could and he gets crushed. in sc2 its VERY easy to max and VERY easy to control said max army so there needs to be some way for the better play to trounce the lesser one I disagree what do you disagree with lol. its literally impossible to disagree since i didnt post my pov, i posted a fact. sc2 is a 10x easier game as a whole and often times a lesser player wins when he may have deserved to lose or isnt capable of earning a win through mastery of the game as a whole forums usually frustrate me i wish there was a top 8 masters finish requirement to post or something similar And then you start pulling numbers out of your ass ... thumbs down you started reasonable. 10x ... really ?
Please don't brazenly assault someone's argument if you don't even understand it - you're shooting dawn DA STRAWMEN!!! Posting as much as you do one would assume you understand the simple use of a hyperbole, no?
The point he was trying to make was that the game is objectively easier because of X reasons which you have not, and he believes factually cannot be, refuted. So try again :D!
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Doubt it'd fix much, since this game revolves around massing air and caster units.
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On February 02 2013 16:14 -Kyo- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2013 15:38 Lysanias wrote:On February 02 2013 15:34 sunglasseson wrote:On February 02 2013 14:40 Emzeeshady wrote:On February 02 2013 13:21 sunglasseson wrote:On February 02 2013 12:23 sitromit wrote:
So more turtling? No thank you. this is the new generation response to improving the game. he doesnt mean high ground must work like this he means that positional advantage is a skill that is lacking in the game. sc2 is so bad skill wise compared to brood war. its very often that build orders crush and the current best race cleans house. its common that a far better player loses to a far worse simply because the race vs race dynamic in sc2 is so horribly imbalanced and since control is so easy, it magnifys the problems. in broodwar protoss was an easier race to macro but just because he can make an army doesnt mean he can use it as well as say another much better zerg/terran could and he gets crushed. in sc2 its VERY easy to max and VERY easy to control said max army so there needs to be some way for the better play to trounce the lesser one I disagree what do you disagree with lol. its literally impossible to disagree since i didnt post my pov, i posted a fact. sc2 is a 10x easier game as a whole and often times a lesser player wins when he may have deserved to lose or isnt capable of earning a win through mastery of the game as a whole forums usually frustrate me i wish there was a top 8 masters finish requirement to post or something similar And then you start pulling numbers out of your ass ... thumbs down you started reasonable. 10x ... really ? Please don't brazenly assault someone's argument if you don't even understand it - you're shooting dawn DA STRAWMEN!!! Posting as much as you do one would assume you understand the simple use of a hyperbole, no? The point he was trying to make was that the game is objectively easier because of X reasons which you have not, and he believes factually cannot be, refuted. So try again :D!
well well. its debates online that dont matter but i still pose this question.... am i wrong? is sc2 not easier? are making units and the speed of those units hurting the game? what was the problem with sc2 at launch. map size. map size is relative to unit speed right? its still a problem except now that maps are large 3rd bases are hard to take for slower armys and 4ths are sometimes out of the question
prove me wrong
does collosi and forcefield add defenders adv? yes only that VERY demanding tech path gives this but it can easily and swiftly attack as well. hardly a "defensive" unit with a "specific advantage"
does the new swarm host give good defense? no lol. in 75 percent of the games it will mean nothing. its lack of speed and stagnated attacks do not mesh with SC2 speed. swarm host has a speed of play of which would be suitable in BW not sc2
furthermore can you not see bliz secretly admits these are the core problems? why else would they add the "spider mine" the "lurker" "defiler" "firebat"
the "air reaver" even exists which tbh is like the reaver AND the corsair wrapped in one. bliz knows the problems even if they dont understand what to do
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On February 02 2013 16:26 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2013 15:34 sunglasseson wrote:On February 02 2013 14:40 Emzeeshady wrote:On February 02 2013 13:21 sunglasseson wrote:On February 02 2013 12:23 sitromit wrote:
So more turtling? No thank you. this is the new generation response to improving the game. he doesnt mean high ground must work like this he means that positional advantage is a skill that is lacking in the game. sc2 is so bad skill wise compared to brood war. its very often that build orders crush and the current best race cleans house. its common that a far better player loses to a far worse simply because the race vs race dynamic in sc2 is so horribly imbalanced and since control is so easy, it magnifys the problems. in broodwar protoss was an easier race to macro but just because he can make an army doesnt mean he can use it as well as say another much better zerg/terran could and he gets crushed. in sc2 its VERY easy to max and VERY easy to control said max army so there needs to be some way for the better play to trounce the lesser one I disagree forums usually frustrate me i wish there was a top 8 masters finish requirement to post or something similar If this is all you need to consider my post credible then consider it credible.
a player tag is required sir
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On February 02 2013 16:14 -Kyo- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2013 15:38 Lysanias wrote:On February 02 2013 15:34 sunglasseson wrote:On February 02 2013 14:40 Emzeeshady wrote:On February 02 2013 13:21 sunglasseson wrote:On February 02 2013 12:23 sitromit wrote:
So more turtling? No thank you. this is the new generation response to improving the game. he doesnt mean high ground must work like this he means that positional advantage is a skill that is lacking in the game. sc2 is so bad skill wise compared to brood war. its very often that build orders crush and the current best race cleans house. its common that a far better player loses to a far worse simply because the race vs race dynamic in sc2 is so horribly imbalanced and since control is so easy, it magnifys the problems. in broodwar protoss was an easier race to macro but just because he can make an army doesnt mean he can use it as well as say another much better zerg/terran could and he gets crushed. in sc2 its VERY easy to max and VERY easy to control said max army so there needs to be some way for the better play to trounce the lesser one I disagree what do you disagree with lol. its literally impossible to disagree since i didnt post my pov, i posted a fact. sc2 is a 10x easier game as a whole and often times a lesser player wins when he may have deserved to lose or isnt capable of earning a win through mastery of the game as a whole forums usually frustrate me i wish there was a top 8 masters finish requirement to post or something similar And then you start pulling numbers out of your ass ... thumbs down you started reasonable. 10x ... really ? Please don't brazenly assault someone's argument if you don't even understand it - you're shooting dawn DA STRAWMEN!!! Posting as much as you do one would assume you understand the simple use of a hyperbole, no? The point he was trying to make was that the game is objectively easier because of X reasons which you have not, and he believes factually cannot be, refuted. So try again :D!
Hyperbole and facts simply don't work together.
And let me put you one X reason here then, what happens with all those Broodwar players that play an easy game now ?
They would be eating there nose and play with a mouse only, how's that hyperbole for you.
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I think this is one of those things that you can quite make accurate predictions on what effects it will have on the game. Best to make a custom map and get some high level players to test this thoroughly. So yeah, it wont hurt if blizzard tried this out in beta or made a custom map and call to action about this.
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If SC2 is going to be improved...this is not the way, IMO. The excellence of BW did not primarily come from high ground advantages.
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On February 02 2013 16:30 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2013 16:27 sunglasseson wrote:On February 02 2013 16:26 Emzeeshady wrote:On February 02 2013 15:34 sunglasseson wrote:On February 02 2013 14:40 Emzeeshady wrote:On February 02 2013 13:21 sunglasseson wrote:On February 02 2013 12:23 sitromit wrote:
So more turtling? No thank you. this is the new generation response to improving the game. he doesnt mean high ground must work like this he means that positional advantage is a skill that is lacking in the game. sc2 is so bad skill wise compared to brood war. its very often that build orders crush and the current best race cleans house. its common that a far better player loses to a far worse simply because the race vs race dynamic in sc2 is so horribly imbalanced and since control is so easy, it magnifys the problems. in broodwar protoss was an easier race to macro but just because he can make an army doesnt mean he can use it as well as say another much better zerg/terran could and he gets crushed. in sc2 its VERY easy to max and VERY easy to control said max army so there needs to be some way for the better play to trounce the lesser one I disagree forums usually frustrate me i wish there was a top 8 masters finish requirement to post or something similar If this is all you need to consider my post credible then consider it credible. a player tag is required sir You can look me up. I have been in masters for the last two seasons. You act like thats hard? Most of my knowledge of the game comes from watching anyway.
so then its as i thought. two fold
1- your masters but only past 2 seasons thus there is no way you were ever a TOP masters player (massive dif i assure you)
2- your knowledge comes from watching others do. when one does not or cannot do something, he misses crucial data from which to arrive at an educated opinion. you admitting this and your continual posts drown out good ideas tho most posts here will not be good ideas
then again i think most people are not qualified to vote/run for office (way off topic) i digress..
just toss me that player ID so i can see 10 diamond finishes and then u patch zerg 2 masters 2 seasons before the end. really not qualified to talk balance
the above poster is right. high grounds just the D list solution people keep throwing around since the primary problems of sc2 can never be fixed unless the game is changed
edit - lol yep i was right 2 seasons of patch zerg plat in the rest but by all means what does the patch zerg think is the problem?
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On February 02 2013 16:36 sunglasseson wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2013 16:30 Emzeeshady wrote:On February 02 2013 16:27 sunglasseson wrote:On February 02 2013 16:26 Emzeeshady wrote:On February 02 2013 15:34 sunglasseson wrote:On February 02 2013 14:40 Emzeeshady wrote:On February 02 2013 13:21 sunglasseson wrote:On February 02 2013 12:23 sitromit wrote:
So more turtling? No thank you. this is the new generation response to improving the game. he doesnt mean high ground must work like this he means that positional advantage is a skill that is lacking in the game. sc2 is so bad skill wise compared to brood war. its very often that build orders crush and the current best race cleans house. its common that a far better player loses to a far worse simply because the race vs race dynamic in sc2 is so horribly imbalanced and since control is so easy, it magnifys the problems. in broodwar protoss was an easier race to macro but just because he can make an army doesnt mean he can use it as well as say another much better zerg/terran could and he gets crushed. in sc2 its VERY easy to max and VERY easy to control said max army so there needs to be some way for the better play to trounce the lesser one I disagree forums usually frustrate me i wish there was a top 8 masters finish requirement to post or something similar If this is all you need to consider my post credible then consider it credible. a player tag is required sir You can look me up. I have been in masters for the last two seasons. You act like thats hard? Most of my knowledge of the game comes from watching anyway. so then its as i thought. two fold 1- your masters but only past 2 seasons thus there is no way you were ever a TOP masters player (massive dif i assure you) 2- your knowledge comes from watching others do. when one does not or cannot do something, he misses crucial data from which to arrive at an educated opinion. you admitting this and your continual posts drown out good ideas tho most posts here will not be good ideas then again i think most people are not qualified to vote/run for office (way off topic) i digress.. just toss me that player ID so i can see 10 diamond finishes and then u patch zerg 2 masters 2 seasons before the end. really not qualified to talk balance the above poster is right. high grounds just the D list solution people keep throwing around since the primary problems of sc2 can never be fixed unless the game is changed
stop trolling. to be "qualified to talk" is not something you can decide, even if you were top 8 grandmaster, having a discussion as a group between different level players does two things - enlightens the uninformed (if they choose to learn), and shows possible insight that an "expert" might not have because of their rigid thinking.
I have no doubt this entire thread is never going to influence blizzard balancing anyway, but its an interesting idea. What leads to more interesting plays are games where the defender does have a massive advantage, that already feels like the case with zerg and terran at least (creep for zerg, chokes/buildings/tanks/range etc. for terran). I don't really understand how protoss fits in with it tho, since the warp in mechanic can be done anywhere with well placed pylon/warp prisms, and force field is a mobile defender advantage.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, in the transition from WoL to HotS I would like it if protoss defender mechanic was improved, and hey look at that, they added the ability to make your nexus shoot. Seems okay to me, but not particularly interesting. Widow mines and swarm hosts also add to this defenders advantage theme.
Adding more high ground advantage to this would be in tune with what Blizzard is trying to do, but I don't think its necessary. I'd rather they fine tune the units they have decided to implement, and if they don't fit, replace them with ones that do.
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On February 02 2013 12:14 sunglasseson wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2013 09:24 NukeD wrote:
While this change is a step in the right direction, it will hardly do anything to save SC2. not sure if its a "step in the right direction" or not but sc2 isnt the skill fest BW was i just wonder when we give up on blizzard games. its not just sc2 guys all blizzard games are horrible these days
While I dont know when or if people will give up on every Blizzard game, Im pretty sure they will give up on SC2 in the near future. Even if HotS turns out better than WoL.
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swarm hosts are REALLY bad. swarm hosts are good vs mech and require you to go roach hydra to defend them. if you fought marine tank with swarm host ling for example the terran will dart in, in between the locust spawns and your lings will lose the trade. now, the thing that swarm hosts DO have that are GREAT mechanic wise is the fact that they keep spawning locust no matter what. you may ask, why is that good? the reason is because now you cant mindlessly leave them burrowed. you may want to defend with them ABOVE ground first and burrow when you see attacks OR unburrow and relocate while charging up new locust.
great mechanic on a bad unit for the job.
i admit i got carried away with that kid but have you ever met someone who always "thinks he knows everything" but hes usually wrong or a complete idiot? when i see a guy whos plat and under for 7 seasons then randomly (um massive zerg buffs) gets low masters and starts posting his view it makes me cringe a bit.
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EPT
