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Ok here we go, I'm going to keep this focused because I could write a novel on the amount of discussion that occurs on sotg and i feel like I made the general idea of my point clear in my first post. Oh and just so you know CatZ does not say similar things at all.
Keeping it strictly relating to the issue of reaper imbalance in TvZ which both shows touch on let me summarise what they discussed.
First State of the Game
CatZ claims reapers(particularly proxy reaper rushes) are clearly a big problem. His primary argument is;
The biggest problem with reapers is it's up to the Terran player to deal damage and not up to the Zerg to defend.
That, perhaps due to his phrasing sounds a bit crazy at first but he then details exactly what he means and why this is an issue
His initial points are;
proxy reapers will always be in your base before queen(2 reapers)
Lings cant catch reapers until you have speed which will always be a long way off before they arrive
It is not possible for the Zerg to have anything at the time that will ever catch and surround or beat the reapers. This is why it is entirely up to the Terran's multitasking.
(notice how these both back up and detail the claim he made)
This discussion is of course about proxy 8-8 and 10-10 reaper rushes, which is the major issue in tvz, though reapers in general maybe a bit to powerful as well
There is consensus that the damage reapers can do is all on top of maximum scouting potential
qxc agrees and considers the scouting to be a very important part of standard reaper play.
it goes on and on, qxc raises the point its effects are not to dissimilar to 2fact blueflame etc(i took a bunch of notes)
Now do they reach the conclusion that reapers are too powerful? hell yeah, absolutely, not only that their reasoning behind it is detailed thoroughly discussed in an unbiased fashion. I will admit that I am somewhat biased towards pros and even if CatZ hadn't detailed his thought nearly as much I would consider them more valid(whether u would or not is your choice.)
NOW The Pulse, and Particularly Mr Bitter.
Bitter's argument is; the problem with reapers is that Terran can open reapers and they get map control that the Zerg cant do anything about.
Bitter then makes the claim that Zerg absolutely has to have map control as a mechanic (due to his 1 dimensional and outdated view of Zerg as "the reactive race")
MAYBE BITTER IS RIGHT, I don't know, but he didn't back up his argument at all, he didn't detail or discuss it at all, no professional player seems to think that what he's talking about is an issue, and yet he just tries to pass it off as fact. And no non pro player has a right to pull shit like that. Or are people really gonna believe that bitter is seeing some issue no pro is seeing?
Defacer If being a community figurehead gives bitter a right to have an opinion on balance, then I see no problem with calling him out for bullshitting
And don't be naive, all sc2 players are biased, pro or community member or x player on the ladder. My personal opinion would be to think pros are less biased in general however.
But wait Gretorp also said something, you say! So for the sake of not leaving anything out.
Gretorp adds there is no consistent way for Zerg to be ahead, even or behind
This is without scouting. There is no "safe build" due to all the options of Terran (this is quite similar to the start of wol and could somewhat be attributed to zerg's being unfamiliar with all the new options of Terran. Saying something so definitive so early is absurd, though I'm not sure gretorp meant it as such)
Don't care so much about this,as he is an ex pro player obviously i am more biased to consider gretorp's opinions. Regardless he says nothing that saves or backs up bitters argument, and he doesn't care to explain his reasoning either.
Hope that clarified everything.
On a much more subjective note; to add to the reasons I was irritated enough to write that initial post i suppose i should mention that the pulse didn't even talk about zvp and to a certain degree it felt like they were just bitching about Terran with straw arguments. It comes off as jumping on the terran imba bandwagon, without understanding why terran is the strongest race at all.
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They should just leave the balance talk to pros. Nobody cares about what a caster who was not more than EU Masters in WoL has to say about balance.
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Now that is it, final post about this(I hope). A lot of what I said is unsurprisingly subjective but in my first post I explained that I merely felt that the balance discussion did little good for the show, I greatly enjoy the show, have nothing against Bitter personally and if he wants to have a detailed and informed discussion regarding balance on the show I think that would be great. Of course I would suggest he invited guest pros, because that adds more quality for the viewer and more legitimacy to the discussion. But that isn't what happened in the last episode and I felt that half assed balance whining detracted from the experience.
In my second post I hopefully described how I felt that it came across as bullshitting and whining, comparing it to the discussion on sotg. Though I admit I find myself passionate lately about the topic of non-pros discussing balance so perhaps It came across as a bit of a rant. It isn't a post I really wanted to write in the first place.
I urge the rest of you to not derail the thread into some discussion of balance or whatever
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final summary/tldr:
Love the pulse found it lacking in one area, I'm certain you guys will improve it. Don't want to turn this thread into "should community member be allowed to comment on balance". I voiced my opinion other posters clearly have different opinions. Either way the show could only benefit from pro player insight in regards to balance discussion. Thanks for reading and I hope you at least consider my perspective.
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I heard NASL recorded an interview with Dota's BeyondTheSummit for The Pulse, has it aired yet?
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On February 25 2013 19:31 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2013 15:56 Rorra wrote:
Currently watching episode 5. Great show, one criticism;
Please leave the balance discussion to the pros, no one wants to listen to Bitter balance whining about issues he's simply,(statistically, objectively) not a good enough player to comment on. When Bitter starts a sentence with "the thing about Zerg versus Terran is"(literally telling the audience HOW IT IS) it makes me want to stop watching. He has zero authority when it comes to something like that regardless of whether hes right or wrong. This balance complaining only detracts from the show, there is simply much more detailed and thorough discussion regarding game balance happening elsewhere.(sotg, player streams, interviews/articles with players etc.)
Of course part of the show is to comment on the patches but that does not need to lead into that mess of a discussion that it did. If Bitter is stressed with zvt on the ladder he can keep that to himself and be professional. If you want to talk about game balance on the pulse, please invite a professional player on the show to discuss it so it can have some substance. One criticism of TL members and SC2 fans: Its is very, very normal for people to have a deep understanding of a sport, without playing it professionally or being bad at the sport themselves. See, oh ... every major network and every major sport that isn't SC2, which is populated with an endless array of coaches, scouts, and on-air talent that all SUCK at the game they study and analyze. In fact, not only do these non-players provide valuable analysis and insight, but often, they provide a less biased and less subjective opinion than professional players, because they can separate the limitations of their play from how the game works.
i disagree.
being a guy who was a catcher from the age of 6
and played baseball at its highest levels in Ontario... i can tell u this...
Gregg_Zaun brings a depth of knowledge to the Toronto Blue Jay broadcasts that any other "broadcasting specialist" with no playing experience can not touch with a 10 foot pole.
There is knowledge you get from experiencing the game that you just do not get as an outside observer.
His opinions about how to use the fastball to set up a hitter can only be generated by playing the game.
Jamie Campbell flat out has no clue. To any one who has never played baseball he "sounds logical". He speaks very clearly with a commanding baritone. He always wears the best looking suits and has a real "stage presence". The guy is clueless. Fortunately, he knows this and lets Gregg do the heavy lifting and pretty much plays the role of "Clutch" which is a smart move on his part.
Leave the in depth analysis to the pros.
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No matter the level of analysis, I surely love how these shows both entertain and educate lesser players, while creating more exposure for both NASL and its figures. I'll defiantly try watch them live, In the meantime I'll be checking out those VODS! 
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On February 25 2013 19:31 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2013 15:56 Rorra wrote:
Currently watching episode 5. Great show, one criticism;
Please leave the balance discussion to the pros, no one wants to listen to Bitter balance whining about issues he's simply,(statistically, objectively) not a good enough player to comment on. When Bitter starts a sentence with "the thing about Zerg versus Terran is"(literally telling the audience HOW IT IS) it makes me want to stop watching. He has zero authority when it comes to something like that regardless of whether hes right or wrong. This balance complaining only detracts from the show, there is simply much more detailed and thorough discussion regarding game balance happening elsewhere.(sotg, player streams, interviews/articles with players etc.)
Of course part of the show is to comment on the patches but that does not need to lead into that mess of a discussion that it did. If Bitter is stressed with zvt on the ladder he can keep that to himself and be professional. If you want to talk about game balance on the pulse, please invite a professional player on the show to discuss it so it can have some substance. One criticism of TL members and SC2 fans: Its is very, very normal for people to have a deep understanding of a sport, without playing it professionally or being bad at the sport themselves. See, oh ... every major network and every major sport that isn't SC2, which is populated with an endless array of coaches, scouts, and on-air talent that all SUCK at the game they study and analyze. In fact, not only do these non-players provide valuable analysis and insight, but often, they provide a less biased and less subjective opinion than professional players, because they can separate the limitations of their play from how the game works. And guess what? Even fans in other sports are allowed to have opinions, too! It's not at all abnormal for some fan to share his opinions on how his favorite team is playing and what they can do to improve! They don't need to be a 'professional' or 'Masters' level players or have 500,000 XP or anything! And the craziest thing is this — even though their opinion isn't certified, sponsored or cosign by some authoritative body, sometimes they're actually right! TLDR; Mr. Bitter certainly understands the game well enough to have an opinion, and even he didn't, he's entitled to it.
Defacer, I am with you 100% on this. No one questions Artosis on his game knowlage, even though he is not a professional player. In fact, I don't like any professional player opinions on balance because they are mostly self serving and only address their specific problems with a matchup or that is prevents their specific style(example: Greedy macro play) from being successful.
There isn't a single professional coach the NFL that can and sometimes never could have, played as well as their players. They are stillt he experts in the game. Even tennis players have coaches, who are less skilled than them. People need to embrace the idea that professional players are not the only or best place to get opinions on balance.
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On February 26 2013 02:22 Plansix wrote:
There isn't a single professional coach the NFL that can and sometimes never could have, played as well as their players. They are stillt he experts in the game. Even tennis players have coaches, who are less skilled than them. People need to embrace the idea that professional players are not the only or best place to get opinions on balance.
the best coach in the history of the NFL is Vince Lombardi.
how long did he play Football?
he lived ate and breathed Football from the age of 11... the 1st year you were allowed to play football back then.
until the great depression hit and there was no such thing as professional football
he played a fuck-tonne of football at its highest levels before he started his coaching career
i could talk about Scottie Bowman next.. but i'm too lazy to drive an 18 wheel mack truck through the holes in this argument.
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Is there a full-length VOD for episode 5 yet? I know they mess up the youtube versions with a billion 2-3 minute parts, but usually I could always find a full twitch recording. I can't seem to find the twitch VOD.
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On February 26 2013 07:19 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2013 02:22 Plansix wrote:
There isn't a single professional coach the NFL that can and sometimes never could have, played as well as their players. They are stillt he experts in the game. Even tennis players have coaches, who are less skilled than them. People need to embrace the idea that professional players are not the only or best place to get opinions on balance. the best coach in the history of the NFL is Vince Lombardi. how long did he play Football? he lived ate and breathed Football from the age of 11... the 1st year you were allowed to play football back then. until the great depression hit and there was no such thing as professional football he played a fuck-tonne of football at its highest levels before he started his coaching career i could talk about Scottie Bowman next.. but i'm too lazy to drive an 18 wheel mack truck through the holes in this argument.
Which still doesn't discredit the point. Saying that some top coaches were also top players does not mean that only top players have expert knowledge of a game.
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On February 26 2013 11:23 Femeny wrote:
Is there a full-length VOD for episode 5 yet? I know they mess up the youtube versions with a billion 2-3 minute parts, but usually I could always find a full twitch recording. I can't seem to find the twitch VOD.
You can usually see our full length shows here:
http://nasl.tv/p/thepulse
For now, you can see it here:
http://www.twitch.tv/nasltv/b/370941321
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699 Posts
Podcast updated on iTunes and OP updated with full VOD link on TwitchTV
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Can I say, from the first episode it seemed like it was just going to go down the path of yet another show of a few dudes mic'd up talking about things that happened that week (just add in a little production.) But it's been steadily improving and as of last Sunday's show I was BLOWN AWAY by the overall organization of the show. The different sections are varied and well thought out, love the cuts of replays from important matches I missed instead of just a dry score run through, and as always NASL production is great.
It's now turned into something I'm really looking forward to on my Sunday morning. GJ guys.
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Once again I want to comment that this is a great show and from episode 1 to 5 there is great improvement shown. Great job to everyone involved. I miss the morning show(sleeping to due late Saturday nights) but I usually catch the rebroadcast or VOD.
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Next topic: when will NASL pick up Dota 2?
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When will NASL pick up LoL? Dota 2 is a much better game but you can't deny how much more popular LoL is on a worldwide scale.
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On February 25 2013 20:32 Rorra wrote:
Hope that clarified everything.
On a much more subjective note; to add to the reasons I was irritated enough to write that initial post i suppose i should mention that the pulse didn't even talk about zvp and to a certain degree it felt like they were just bitching about Terran with straw arguments. It comes off as jumping on the terran imba bandwagon, without understanding why terran is the strongest race at all.
I'm not going to quote you're entire post because it's very long, but it's perfectly fine to disagree with Mr. Bitter, his reasoning, or even the quality of the discussion. I was just pointing out that your idea that 'professional players' are the only people qualified to discuss balance or analyze the game is a bit of an overreaction on your part.
And in general, its a fallacy. There are some very successful pro's who I think have a horrible understanding of the game, that rely strictly on risky or abusive play, or have to compensate for their lack of strategy or knowledge with sheer talent and speed. And there's pro's that have a deep understanding of the game, but simply aren't articulate enough to share their knowledge, or only understand it intuitively.
Also, I didn't mean to make you defensive, I was just trying to defend the Bill Simmons, Jeff Van Gundy's and Mr. Bitter's of the world. Saying you need a pro to discuss balance is like saying you need a comedian to tell you what's funny.
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On February 26 2013 02:22 Plansix wrote:
There isn't a single professional coach the NFL that can and sometimes never could have, played as well as their players. They are stillt he experts in the game. Even tennis players have coaches, who are less skilled than them. People need to embrace the idea that professional players are not the only or best place to get opinions on balance.
Isaiah Thomas and Michael Jordan were great players ... and notoriously bad coaches, managers and executives. Their strategic advice would essentially be to jump higher, dribble faster and shoot sharper.
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699 Posts
Updated with tomorrow's episode information. A special HotS panel will also happen during the pulse with pros ToD, Goswser, and Fuzer during the show so make sure not to miss it!
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EPT
