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On December 30 2012 08:54 Glon wrote:
I really don't get why people expect exact details. It's a business - do you walk into a corporate headquarters and demand to know everything that happens? While yes, there are obviously problems, as long as they are being dealt with in a professional way they will be solved. The community getting involved in every issue may seem like a good solution - however only results in more trouble for both sides and slows any kind of possible solution.
However, in the case of a legal infraction, such cases should be brought to light. A lot of the problems so far have come from people who sign a CONTRACT, then have to go back on their agreement and expect no consequences - again, it's a business. Make sure you have a lawyer read the contract before you sign anything, and go in with a full understanding of all of the terms. If something comes up outside of the contract - talk it over (such as denying lunch for missing breakfast..?). If you can't come to a solution that seems fair/reasonable to you, then fine make a post if you like. However, a public post should be one of the LAST options taken by players/community, NOT one of the first.
Overall, I actually think MinistryOfWin has done a decent job handling all of this bad attention media-wise (Not making any claims about the house - they have messed up pretty badly with it so far). However, people need to stop assuming that they are entitled to all of the information about the house (players are to SOME of it, community aren't)
On December 30 2012 08:59 Chairman Ray wrote:
I appreciate how after every time there's an issue with MoW, regardless of who's fault it is, MoW always releases a public statement concerning the matter and answers any questions the community has. It's quite impressive for a small organization without a PR department.
Thank you very much.
I'd like still to invite you for the 24/7 live-chat on our channel: http://twitch.tv/ministryofwin_Studio1
We will post more details soon, stay tuned - all the questions that are not answered, I hope, will get correct answers.
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Whew, this thread is full of knee-jerk reactions. At this point, I do not think anything MoW does will help their image. The community has decided to shit all over them and that's that. Does the crime fit the punishment? Time will tell. It sounds like overall everything was okay except a few hot issues. Unfortunately, they did open themselves up to ridicule by making this a grand community experience of sorts. They could just forgo the publicity advantage and keep this private if they want to, but it is really too late.
If they pay then they should stay.
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I don't know a lot about this situation, but this "press release" seems very unprofessional. You can't seek to appease thousands of fans by calling two of your employees "incompetent" within the first paragraph. The rest of it reads like a teenage girl's whiny blog entry, pleading for approval. If you want to be seen as a professional organization, you should really keep the personal feelings out of it.
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On December 30 2012 07:21 derpface wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2012 07:09 IdrA wrote:On December 30 2012 06:40 Galetmonster wrote:
4 consecutive posts from IdrA is normally bannable no? it would be thats why i did 5 Idra always breaking the rules. You should read up and behave like we others do.
Nobody ever gets banned for double-posting, seriously (at least in recent years). If they do a lot, they'll get a warning, and if they do it EVERYWHERE repeatedly after being warned, maybe then.
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On December 30 2012 05:15 SonKiE wrote:
Why would you ever consider going to a pro GAMING house in POLAND?
User was warned for this post
Why not?
Poland is a beautiful country.
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On December 30 2012 08:30 Noobity wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2012 06:30 Insomni7 wrote:
You cannot not pay people because you don't feel they did a good job. You can terminate their contract but you cannot simply not pay them for the time they did work. Reading the press release made me feel that MoW didn't understand this. If there was a contract that was violated by not doing the job your contract said you had to do, then yes, you absolutely can refuse to pay. Assuming Illu was on a salary + commission plan for his recruiting work, if he did not hit that commission it's possible that the contract could allow MoW take away from his salary (this happens in America, not sure about Poland). Obviously all this relies on the contract created and the laws governing contracts in Poland, but assuming they're anything like what they are in the US, none of what people are accusing them of doing illegally is even questionable. For instance, Verizon Wireless has a minimum salary that sales workers earn, but by not hitting their quota some of that salary is with-held down to a certain minimum. If Illu was also being given food and lodging, it's likely that this food and lodging was the minimum pay. I still think MoW is a great thing for the community, and I think they're honestly learning from their mistakes. I would love to see them offer a semi-pro player a month or two and allow that player to make a detailed report of the usefulness and efficiency of the program, which I assume could truly give us a fair and unbiased view of what goes on there. The player would need to be able to record their information and their takes in private, and roll out that information after no longer being in the house. Now, I don't really trust this community to take that player on their word, but I truly think that would be the best way to show what's going on, and to provide MoW with something concrete to work on. I would love to see this program truly succeed, it's unfortunate that the public sees it the way they do right now.
What? That definitely isn't how it works in America.
Salary absolutely can not be with held. It's a fixed number of guaranteed pay.
If you do not hit your quota, that counts against your commission, not salary, and is then subtracted from commission pay the following month. Salary is never touched. If you continue to fail to reach your quota, you are just simply fired so they aren't wasting money paying you a salary. They don't just randomly refuse to pay your salary.
Even if you are working with a contractor and you don't think they did their job right, you can't just simply refuse to pay them. You'll find yourself in court in a heartbeat.
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So what about the million euros?
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I was always under the impression that if you hire someone that sucks at their job it is your fault. You made the decision to hire them. They didnt meet the requirements so you fire them. And of course they get paid for the time they did work. Your statement suggests you are withholding pay for time worked. Until you fire someone you must pay them. Am I getting this wrong?
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Just to clarify how things are done in Poland: We have several ways of hiring people - there are types of contracts where employee agrees to work (their best ofc  for certain hours at the certain place and with this kind of contract payment is known up front and pretty much can not be modified. And there's completely different way of contracting people, where there's no consideration about time and place, just the outcome of the employees work. Amount of payment is known upfront, but it's only paid when the outcome meets the requirements of the agreement.
So my guess is that the latter way of contracting was used, but not everyone was on the same page about the shape and quality of the outcome.
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On December 30 2012 10:19 Claygirl wrote:Just to clarify how things are done in Poland: We have several ways of hiring people - there are types of contracts where employee agrees to work (their best ofc for certain hours at the certain place and with this kind of contract payment is known up front and pretty much can not be modified. And there's completely different way of contracting people, where there's no consideration about time and place, just the outcome of the employees work. Amount of payment is known upfront, but it's only paid when the outcome meets the requirements of the agreement. So my guess is that the latter way of contracting was used, but not everyone was on the same page about the shape and quality of the outcome.
Thank you for your explanation, Magda. 
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tbh nearly every player whos been there (including desrow which is cool given 'jew/food drama' happened) says it is a great place for improving etc. Which is WHAT should really matter in "if MoW helps e-sports or not case".
I can understand people saying MoW is looking unproffesional, has bad publicity etc.
But people saying they are shady/need to be shut down at once and showing them 'inadequate' hate, I just can't.
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On December 30 2012 10:22 mijagi182 wrote:
tbh nearly every player whos been there (including desrow which is cool given 'jew/food drama' happened) says it is a great place for improving etc. Which is WHAT should really matter in "if MoW helps e-sports or not case".
I can understand people saying MoW is looking unproffesional, has bad publicity etc.
But people saying they are shady/need to be shut down at once and showing them 'inadequate' hate, I just can't.
Thank you as well, this is some kind words here as well.
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On December 30 2012 09:34 Cel.erity wrote:
I don't know a lot about this situation, but this "press release" seems very unprofessional. You can't seek to appease thousands of fans by calling two of your employees "incompetent" within the first paragraph. The rest of it reads like a teenage girl's whiny blog entry, pleading for approval. If you want to be seen as a professional organization, you should really keep the personal feelings out of it.
Professional statement -> people accuse it of being fluff
Gory details -> people accuse it of being unprofessional
I thought the statement was direct and informative, but also very late (they allowed the drama to snowball) and doesn't excuse them of actually needing to fix those things.
MoW, I hope you succeed.
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On December 30 2012 10:21 MinistryOfWin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2012 10:19 Claygirl wrote:Just to clarify how things are done in Poland: We have several ways of hiring people - there are types of contracts where employee agrees to work (their best ofc for certain hours at the certain place and with this kind of contract payment is known up front and pretty much can not be modified. And there's completely different way of contracting people, where there's no consideration about time and place, just the outcome of the employees work. Amount of payment is known upfront, but it's only paid when the outcome meets the requirements of the agreement. So my guess is that the latter way of contracting was used, but not everyone was on the same page about the shape and quality of the outcome. Thank you for your explanation, Magda.
Just to be clear. So what happened was the parents were contracted to clean and cook or whatever. The pay and terms were decided before hand and will not be paid till services are fully rendered. BUt the terms are not met and you are going to pay them nothing. Or did u pay them for several periods and are withholding the last period of payment? I would think doing most of the work and getting payed nothing would be immoral. Not saying that is what happened.
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On December 30 2012 10:28 Solarsail wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2012 09:34 Cel.erity wrote:
I don't know a lot about this situation, but this "press release" seems very unprofessional. You can't seek to appease thousands of fans by calling two of your employees "incompetent" within the first paragraph. The rest of it reads like a teenage girl's whiny blog entry, pleading for approval. If you want to be seen as a professional organization, you should really keep the personal feelings out of it. Professional statement -> people accuse it of being fluff Gory details -> people accuse it of being unprofessional I thought the statement was direct and informative, but also very late (they allowed the drama to snowball) and doesn't excuse them of actually needing to fix those things. MoW, I hope you succeed.
You know what the problem is, is that people need sleep. Sometimes you wake up to these things, can't be awake 24/7 you know =(
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On December 30 2012 09:45 Dosey wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2012 08:30 Noobity wrote:On December 30 2012 06:30 Insomni7 wrote:
You cannot not pay people because you don't feel they did a good job. You can terminate their contract but you cannot simply not pay them for the time they did work. Reading the press release made me feel that MoW didn't understand this. If there was a contract that was violated by not doing the job your contract said you had to do, then yes, you absolutely can refuse to pay. Assuming Illu was on a salary + commission plan for his recruiting work, if he did not hit that commission it's possible that the contract could allow MoW take away from his salary (this happens in America, not sure about Poland). Obviously all this relies on the contract created and the laws governing contracts in Poland, but assuming they're anything like what they are in the US, none of what people are accusing them of doing illegally is even questionable. For instance, Verizon Wireless has a minimum salary that sales workers earn, but by not hitting their quota some of that salary is with-held down to a certain minimum. If Illu was also being given food and lodging, it's likely that this food and lodging was the minimum pay. I still think MoW is a great thing for the community, and I think they're honestly learning from their mistakes. I would love to see them offer a semi-pro player a month or two and allow that player to make a detailed report of the usefulness and efficiency of the program, which I assume could truly give us a fair and unbiased view of what goes on there. The player would need to be able to record their information and their takes in private, and roll out that information after no longer being in the house. Now, I don't really trust this community to take that player on their word, but I truly think that would be the best way to show what's going on, and to provide MoW with something concrete to work on. I would love to see this program truly succeed, it's unfortunate that the public sees it the way they do right now. What? That definitely isn't how it works in America. Salary absolutely can not be with held. It's a fixed number of guaranteed pay. If you do not hit your quota, that counts against your commission, not salary, and is then subtracted from commission pay the following month. Salary is never touched. If you continue to fail to reach your quota, you are just simply fired so they aren't wasting money paying you a salary. They don't just randomly refuse to pay your salary. Even if you are working with a contractor and you don't think they did their job right, you can't just simply refuse to pay them. You'll find yourself in court in a heartbeat.
My mistake, we tend to look at our commission as part of our salary, but that still doesn't change the fact that a) this seems to be legal in Poland, and b) room and board could be considered part of, if not all of the salary, and other tasks would be considered commission based, so no salary would need to be paid in this case. It's also possible that we're using the wrong term, I tend to just use salary as what I earn for completing my duties, which I understand now is a bit confusing. I'll be more clear in the future.
As for the contractor part, that's also a matter of contract. For example, if you hire a contractor to specifically cook x number of meals per day, and those x number of meals include whatever the contract says they need to, if those meals are not cooked to those specifications then the job was not completed. Again, it's all a matter of contract. The state of Pennsylvania has a clause where contractors performing duties for or delivering goods to the state can complete the task but still not be paid for the work, as it was not accepted (taken from a pdf downloaded from this site.
4. Nonconforming Breach. The contractor may perform or make delivery, but still breach the contract, because:
a. The delivery is improper (i.e., at the wrong place); or
b. The material fails to conform to the specifications or is defective; or
c. The work fails to conform to the specifications or is defective.
It later goes to say that the state must give written notice that the work was not done acceptably, and allow the contractor to remove the materials. I'm not 100% sure how this would work in the strictly civilian world (and in other states), and I don't know how this would work in a service related contractible field, but I find it hard to believe there is nothing that could be done if a contractor under performs a job they are being paid for, especially if there is a contract in place stating exactly how that job would be completed.
Regardless, this is all neither here nor there, and without being given more details (which as another poster pointed out we're not really entitled to) we're simply making assumptions and decisions based on partial information which is unnecessary and in my opinion unfair to do.
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On December 30 2012 09:34 Cel.erity wrote:
I don't know a lot about this situation, but this "press release" seems very unprofessional. You can't seek to appease thousands of fans by calling two of your employees "incompetent" within the first paragraph. The rest of it reads like a teenage girl's whiny blog entry, pleading for approval. If you want to be seen as a professional organization, you should really keep the personal feelings out of it.
You certainly aren`t getting a thank you.
I agree though, after reading that it did not come off professional at all. The document served as a PDF almost convinced me though!
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Desrow mentioned MoW today on his stream. He said it was a very good team and everything was fine except the owner was kind of a douche. Desrow said he was able to not worry about anything but playing and that is what a gaming house is for.
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Yea, I believe you guys..........
*rolls eyes*
/sarcasm
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I like MoW I think they are doing a great job. Keep up the good work guys.
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EPT
