EPTIf you want "actual" strategy games what you're looking for is turn-based games like, say, Battle for Wesnoth.
APM/mechanics vs strategy - Page 10
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Trotim
Germany95 Posts
If you want "actual" strategy games what you're looking for is turn-based games like, say, Battle for Wesnoth. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On January 01 2013 03:26 Trotim wrote: Real-time strategy games like this should have a relatively high focus on APM. If you want "actual" strategy games what you're looking for is turn-based games like, say, Battle for Wesnoth. I have spent many nights planning to ladder and ended up Wesnothing. | ||
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RiZu
Singapore5715 Posts
On January 01 2013 03:26 Trotim wrote: Real-time strategy games like this should have a relatively high focus on APM. If you want "actual" strategy games what you're looking for is turn-based games like, say, Battle for Wesnoth. Thank bro! I always wanted to find this game but couldn't rmb the name. I can't wait to start playing those dungeons. | ||
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Bahku
United States182 Posts
On December 31 2012 21:17 Grimmyman123 wrote: I am a prime example that good decision making and strategy outweight mechanics. Platinum league taking on Diamonds, and I only hotkey my nexus and my robo. Everything else is grab and move. Now, that being said, if I had better mechanics and better hotkeying, I surely would be in Diamond league, possibly tackling master leaguers. But strategy is more important, and good decision making. What sorts of strategies do you feel give you the advantage? | ||
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deth2munkies
United States4051 Posts
I honestly have begun to prefer Turn-based strategy games more recently from the 4x like Civilization 5 (with G&K) and Alpha Centauri to the tactical like X-COM and Final Fantasy Tactics. It's all about risk management and long term planning in those games, and that's what I like. I'm not saying there's no place for mechanics, I'm just saying I prefer games that are more about thinking and adapting and less about APM. | ||
Olli
Austria24417 Posts
On January 02 2013 01:49 Bahku wrote: What sorts of strategies do you feel give you the advantage? I'm the same, my mechanics are pretty horrible, I play at about 90 average APM but I still win most games in plat/diamond fairly easily simply through decisionmaking. It doesn't really depend on certain strategies for me, I try just about every build I see in GSL. But knowing where your strengths are with certain strategies + playing your cards right are really interesting to play and to watch in my opinion. Of course coupled with mechanical difficulty, it becomes all the more impressive. | ||
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decado90
United States480 Posts
On January 02 2013 03:16 DarkLordOlli wrote: I'm the same, my mechanics are pretty horrible, I play at about 90 average APM but I still win most games in plat/diamond fairly easily simply through decisionmaking. It doesn't really depend on certain strategies for me, I try just about every build I see in GSL. But knowing where your strengths are with certain strategies + playing your cards right are really interesting to play and to watch in my opinion. Of course coupled with mechanical difficulty, it becomes all the more impressive. Nothing really matters when you aren't at pro level because no one knows what they are doing. Go download IPL 5 replay pack. Koreans hit 200 epm 47 times, while foreigner never hit it a single time. Koreans comprised the top 12. Low apm is just too much of a disadvantage at pro level. Know who has the highest apm in the foreign scene? Stephano. Know who's the best foreigner? Know how many foreign Terrans hit 200 epm? 0. Doesn't really matter for Protoss though, The Koreans have much higher apm than the foreigners still, but it isn't the end all be all like it is with Terran or Zerg. Hopefully that changes in HOTS. Strategy is still very important, but do you really think things like infestor broodlord turtle or collosos turtle are good for the game? They reward inferior players far too much. | ||
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Account252508
3454 Posts
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
On January 02 2013 03:36 decado90 wrote: Nothing really matters when you aren't at pro level because no one knows what they are doing. Go download IPL 5 replay pack. Koreans hit 200 epm 47 times, while foreigner never hit it a single time. Koreans comprised the top 12. Low apm is just too much of a disadvantage at pro level. Know who has the highest apm in the foreign scene? Stephano. Know who's the best foreigner? Know how many foreign Terrans hit 200 epm? 0. Doesn't really matter for Protoss though, The Koreans have much higher apm than the foreigners still, but it isn't the end all be all like it is with Terran or Zerg. Hopefully that changes in HOTS. Strategy is still very important, but do you really think things like infestor broodlord turtle or collosos turtle are good for the game? They reward inferior players far too much. I highlighted everything I found weird in that post. So basically... executing strategy should take skill, mechanics, whatever you wanna call it. If say I do a DT expand vs a 1 rax FE terran, how do I play my cards right to burn as much economy as possible, snipe as much as possible, how do I transition to be safe, what advantage do I want to achieve with this build, etc. That's cool to see. Of course it has to be difficult to some extent, otherwise every scrub could do it. Which they can't. The only people who I've seen do this particular build really really well are HerO and Rain. But that's just an example. The highest APM in the foreigner scene was Dignitas.Merz btw. He retired a few months ago. He was a foreign terran, played around average 300 apm. Not sure what that was in eapm but his apm was as high as korean terrans, even higher at times. I personally like to see people outthink each other, not just mindless "who clicks faster wins". Why? Because as long as the game is balanced (no comment on that), it'll reward the smarter player. | ||
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Nimix
France1809 Posts
I love seeing multiprong attacks, like Rain's multi prong Storm drops, Snute crazy runbyes(runbies? not sure \o/), MVP perfect drop play, with 2 drops + one frontal attack going on exactly at the same time and both drops being microed.. Camping your base to make templars and colossus and a moving isn't winning through strategy, it's winning because it still works at your level and/or your race standard play allows it. And also because focusing heavily on macro requires 0 APM and is the best way to win at lower levels. Real complex strategies in my opinion are the one that involve a lot of army movements, because first it's hard to keep up mentally, but also physically. You have to split your army right to not overcomit to harass that'll fail and lose you the game, you have to synchronize your attacks (and thus remember you have drops flying while macroing and microing your main army), and to micro on several fronts. And of course not screw up your build meanwhile, and keep your macro up. That's why I think mechanics and strategy are linked in RTS, at least in well designed one, where harass and multiprong attacks are rewarded. Top strategies should always involve harass and/or little group of units roaming the map. Gaining advantages through smart build orders is strategy, but still require APM and mechanics to make it work. You can try and do the smartest build ever, if your macro slips every time you move your units, you won't get anything from it. | ||
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decado90
United States480 Posts
On January 02 2013 03:39 monkybone wrote: You'd be surprised to know how few Korean Terrans do that as well... If you do have the stats, I would be interested to see it. It's hard to tell because GSL doesn't release replays and players like Gumiho you don't have to even check to know they are playing extraordinarily fast. But from IPL and what I've seen: Taeja hits well over 200 nearly every game he plays. ditto Yoda, Marineking, Byun, and Dream. Also note, that Zerg epm is inflated over Terrans. 200 EPM for Terran is equivalent to 220+ epm from Zerg. 180+ epm (still higher than all foreign Terrans) is where most top Korean Terrans find themselves. The most 1 sided matchup in this game is Foreign Terran vs Korean Zerg, and it's because they simply aren't fast enough. ( See Lucifron vs Life or Thorzain vs any Korean Z) | ||
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
On January 02 2013 03:49 Nimix wrote: Generally speaking to apply complex strategies you need to have good APM and mechanics. People talking about winning in platinum or diamond through strategy because they play protoss and their race just allows being slow with a deathball don't really prove any point. Has absolutely nothing to do with protoss though. There's a ton of multitasking-oriented builds for protoss as well, just watch any HerO game ever. | ||
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NonameAI
127 Posts
On December 30 2012 03:47 Bahku wrote: Would you prefer that an RTS like Starcraft be more focused on APM, or the player's strategy? I had an argument about this many years ago with a friend. I was saying that SC would be a better game if it wasn't focused on micro (which is essentially clicking speed & precision) and macro, and had more emphasis on the position & decision making of the players involved (like chess). Thinking about it recently, I've considered a few contrary points, though. APM & mechanics influencing the gameplay is good because it allows players to improve more through practice. A person of below average intelligence, or without a lot of strategic knowledge, can still excel in SC2 through raw practice alone solely by mastering mechanics. Thoughts? I think a combination of both is what makes sc2 a unique and excellent RTS. A friend once said to me "sc2 is the best rts. Even is blizz is bad at balance, the game design itself is unbeatable, and even if sc2 sucks, rts is hard to get right and to balance, and every other one is worse." This balance between macro and micro si what makes sc so great. macroing while splitting marines. Large tech switches, expanding behind a 6pool. Taking out either one would hinder strategy. APM is just a biproduct of this dual-natured strategy, and it adds a higher skill ceiling for those who wish to become excellent or better at the game. Or for those who look for a challenging game that also has depth. | ||
FlaShFTW
United States10168 Posts
this really reminds me of the bisu build in BW. amazing build, very creative, one of the best PvZ builds ever, but if u dont have the apm to control your sair/reaver/dt properly, you dont go anywhere in that build. the cool strats will come with the apm and mechanics. once u have those skills down, you are able to create those cool builds and strats and actually pull them off. | ||
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
On RTSes, I love to sit and theorize. At random hours throughout the day, and at night before bed, my mind chugs through builds, build permutations, tactical decisions, army composition permutations, timings and strategical theories. On other RTSes, the time spent doing this improved my skill as much as playing the game. On Starcraft, this time is not even close to as effective as grinding out games. That is why Starcraft is more of a "real time" game and less of a "strategy" game. | ||
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
On January 02 2013 04:03 decado90 wrote: It's hard to tell because GSL doesn't release replays and players like Gumiho you don't have to even check to know they are playing extraordinarily fast. But from IPL and what I've seen: Taeja hits well over 200 nearly every game he plays. ditto Yoda, Marineking, Byun, and Dream. Also note, that Zerg epm is inflated over Terrans. 200 EPM for Terran is equivalent to 220+ epm from Zerg. 180+ epm (still higher than all foreign Terrans) is where most top Korean Terrans find themselves. The most 1 sided matchup in this game is Foreign Terran vs Korean Zerg, and it's because they simply aren't fast enough. ( See Lucifron vs Life or Thorzain vs any Korean Z) This has got to be some of the most fucked up retard math I've ever seen. EPM is EPM for all races. Slower doesn't necessarily mean bad unless you're talking about the top of the top of pro level where the fluidity of doing everything in rhythm is so important. | ||
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
On January 02 2013 04:17 sCCrooked wrote: This has got to be some of the most fucked up retard math I've ever seen. EPM is EPM for all races. Slower doesn't necessarily mean bad unless you're talking about the top of the top of pro level where the fluidity of doing everything in rhythm is so important. He's saying that the APM between T and Z isn't directly comparable, so when assessing the skill level of foreigners, you can't compare foriegn Z APM to foreign T APM. I've been playing Terran for years and my APM is higher with Zerg. Smash larva inject on some hatcheries and press szzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz and you've just massively boosted your apm with no effort. | ||
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
On January 02 2013 04:20 iEchoic wrote: He's saying that the APM between T and Z isn't directly comparable, so when assessing the skill level of foreigners, you can't compare foriegn Z APM to foreign T APM. I've been playing Terran for years and my APM is higher with Zerg. Smash larva inject on some hatcheries and press szzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz and you've just massively boosted your apm with no effort. My APM across my Terran, Zerg, and Protoss are nearly identical. Different races require different things focused on, speed and accuracy in mechanics is universal and if you're actually good at the multi-task, should remain just about constant. | ||
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jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
On January 02 2013 04:22 sCCrooked wrote: My APM across my Terran, Zerg, and Protoss are nearly identical. Different races require different things focused on, speed and accuracy in mechanics is universal and if you're actually good at the multi-task, should remain just about constant. Okay, but it's a fundamental fact about the game that it's easier to have higher APM (just numerically, not talking about skill) with Zerg. Your keyboard auto-refresh rate when pressing 's' and then holding a key down is higher than how fast you can manually warp-in or press a production key, no matter how fast you are - and zerg units are also cheaper, so you're making more of them. Larva inject is also a mechanic that is easy to get 700+ burst APM over a half-second or so with. Terran and Protoss macro mechanics don't allow you to do this (good luck swapping buildings or producing units with that kind of APM). There's no need to defend against this statement, it's not a statement of skill, just numbers. | ||
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