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Maybe many find T so boring to play. 45+min long 4M vs Zerg and 45+mins long 3M+~8Vikings+~4Ghots vs P works incredibly well. T units composition never changes.
I am Zerg but the macro from T and P a lot easier for me in HotS, unlike WoL.
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On September 12 2013 03:48 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2013 03:39 SupLilSon wrote:On September 12 2013 03:29 Plansix wrote:On September 12 2013 03:11 c0sm0naut wrote:
Terran pop is very low again in gm worldwide besides KR where there at slightly more tgamers but still below 1/3rd. Protoss dominates the ladder via best of 1 format at 42%. I play r and have hit gms a few times on ladder and would say as Terran it's gonna be so hard to climb the ladder and that alone is probably demoralizing enough for the vast majority of aspiring Terran out there. After being the wol punching bag towards the end it really shouldn't be any mystery why the top Terran names are only familiar while top Z and P names are born monthly. My 2 cents. Not trying to QQ Terran is still the best race if you are the better player "Not whining or anything. Terran is a great race if you are better than your opponent, but if you are at equal skill level, they are doing to win because protoss and zerg are just easier." As I said before, the terran players are so "on message". they hit all their talking points and make sure that people know that their race is hardest. He said he plays Random... not Terran exclusively. I've had the same experience as him while playing Random and finding Terran to be much much more difficult than Protoss and to a lesser extent Zerg. Right when HoTs came out I was able to maintain a 70% winrate as Protoss (while playing random, my Terran was ~55%, Zerg was ~30%, ZvZ was a complete bitch TBH) through the first season. I hadn't played Protoss at all through the last 6 months of WoL yet I still struggled more with Terran despite playing similarly skilled opponents. Sure this is just my own personal testimony, but when Random players consistently have the same experience it might be an indication of some truth. There is a post that is directly above this where a terran player says they find protoss to be harder to play. Using confirmation bias to prove a point does not make it fact or based on good evidence. Finding a bunch of people who all say "Yeah, I play random and I think terran is hardest" only shows that you were able to find a group of people that agree with you. Its not like you were actively seeking out people who found the other races to be more difficult. And using phrases like "I was struggling to win against similarly skilled opponents" is not proof that your opponent was of equal skill.
wasn't really the point I was trying to make but I think T does have a lot of things about it that just make you shine if you are that much better than your opponent. If you are equal skill, its always hard for terran but it's not impossible. I'd say this games balance is pretty good but my point is the ladder is basically a nightmare for Terran players, Especially for TvP. Sooo many barcodes, there is no meta, you dont recognize anyone unless you're a ladder hero, cheese comes at your in different flavors, cuts and locations on the map game for game. the amount of times i've almost come back in a game against a pitiful player who just opened with blink > nexus or 3h 1 gas into roach ling bane, i can't even count on every poster in this thread's hands put together. Terran has a distinct advantage in prepared series imho where you can react with your build (for example, innovation getting tanks aginst symbol, lol), but that the ladder in itself is discouraging because you can't play blindly with T atm. Unit positioning in early tvp is really big on mindgames right now, ii can't tell you how many times i've been nexus into 4gated off 2 gas and just lost because i have 5 marines in my main mineral line for nexus into SG oracle timing. And Vice-versa of course. If you're an aspiring terran, playing 20 games a day and losing 10 of them to random cheese that are completely coinflip but require a very extreme or specific response is demoralizing in a way the other races simply cannot understand.
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On September 13 2013 23:21 c0sm0naut wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2013 03:48 Plansix wrote:On September 12 2013 03:39 SupLilSon wrote:On September 12 2013 03:29 Plansix wrote:On September 12 2013 03:11 c0sm0naut wrote:
Terran pop is very low again in gm worldwide besides KR where there at slightly more tgamers but still below 1/3rd. Protoss dominates the ladder via best of 1 format at 42%. I play r and have hit gms a few times on ladder and would say as Terran it's gonna be so hard to climb the ladder and that alone is probably demoralizing enough for the vast majority of aspiring Terran out there. After being the wol punching bag towards the end it really shouldn't be any mystery why the top Terran names are only familiar while top Z and P names are born monthly. My 2 cents. Not trying to QQ Terran is still the best race if you are the better player "Not whining or anything. Terran is a great race if you are better than your opponent, but if you are at equal skill level, they are doing to win because protoss and zerg are just easier." As I said before, the terran players are so "on message". they hit all their talking points and make sure that people know that their race is hardest. He said he plays Random... not Terran exclusively. I've had the same experience as him while playing Random and finding Terran to be much much more difficult than Protoss and to a lesser extent Zerg. Right when HoTs came out I was able to maintain a 70% winrate as Protoss (while playing random, my Terran was ~55%, Zerg was ~30%, ZvZ was a complete bitch TBH) through the first season. I hadn't played Protoss at all through the last 6 months of WoL yet I still struggled more with Terran despite playing similarly skilled opponents. Sure this is just my own personal testimony, but when Random players consistently have the same experience it might be an indication of some truth. There is a post that is directly above this where a terran player says they find protoss to be harder to play. Using confirmation bias to prove a point does not make it fact or based on good evidence. Finding a bunch of people who all say "Yeah, I play random and I think terran is hardest" only shows that you were able to find a group of people that agree with you. Its not like you were actively seeking out people who found the other races to be more difficult. And using phrases like "I was struggling to win against similarly skilled opponents" is not proof that your opponent was of equal skill. wasn't really the point I was trying to make but I think T does have a lot of things about it that just make you shine if you are that much better than your opponent. If you are equal skill, its always hard for terran but it's not impossible. I'd say this games balance is pretty good but my point is the ladder is basically a nightmare for Terran players, Especially for TvP. Sooo many barcodes, there is no meta, you dont recognize anyone unless you're a ladder hero, cheese comes at your in different flavors, cuts and locations on the map game for game. the amount of times i've almost come back in a game against a pitiful player who just opened with blink > nexus or 3h 1 gas into roach ling bane, i can't even count on every poster in this thread's hands put together. Terran has a distinct advantage in prepared series imho where you can react with your build (for example, innovation getting tanks aginst symbol, lol), but that the ladder in itself is discouraging because you can't play blindly with T atm. Unit positioning in early tvp is really big on mindgames right now, ii can't tell you how many times i've been nexus into 4gated off 2 gas and just lost because i have 5 marines in my main mineral line for nexus into SG oracle timing. And Vice-versa of course. If you're an aspiring terran, playing 20 games a day and losing 10 of them to random cheese that are completely coinflip but require a very extreme or specific response is demoralizing in a way the other races simply cannot understand.
The same can be said for every other race. Getting cannon rushed, proxy DTed, cheesed out or just flat out beat by people just rolling the dice is part of SC2. It happens to everyone and everyone has their most hated match up. It has always been that way.
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On September 13 2013 23:26 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 23:21 c0sm0naut wrote:On September 12 2013 03:48 Plansix wrote:On September 12 2013 03:39 SupLilSon wrote:On September 12 2013 03:29 Plansix wrote:On September 12 2013 03:11 c0sm0naut wrote:
Terran pop is very low again in gm worldwide besides KR where there at slightly more tgamers but still below 1/3rd. Protoss dominates the ladder via best of 1 format at 42%. I play r and have hit gms a few times on ladder and would say as Terran it's gonna be so hard to climb the ladder and that alone is probably demoralizing enough for the vast majority of aspiring Terran out there. After being the wol punching bag towards the end it really shouldn't be any mystery why the top Terran names are only familiar while top Z and P names are born monthly. My 2 cents. Not trying to QQ Terran is still the best race if you are the better player "Not whining or anything. Terran is a great race if you are better than your opponent, but if you are at equal skill level, they are doing to win because protoss and zerg are just easier." As I said before, the terran players are so "on message". they hit all their talking points and make sure that people know that their race is hardest. He said he plays Random... not Terran exclusively. I've had the same experience as him while playing Random and finding Terran to be much much more difficult than Protoss and to a lesser extent Zerg. Right when HoTs came out I was able to maintain a 70% winrate as Protoss (while playing random, my Terran was ~55%, Zerg was ~30%, ZvZ was a complete bitch TBH) through the first season. I hadn't played Protoss at all through the last 6 months of WoL yet I still struggled more with Terran despite playing similarly skilled opponents. Sure this is just my own personal testimony, but when Random players consistently have the same experience it might be an indication of some truth. There is a post that is directly above this where a terran player says they find protoss to be harder to play. Using confirmation bias to prove a point does not make it fact or based on good evidence. Finding a bunch of people who all say "Yeah, I play random and I think terran is hardest" only shows that you were able to find a group of people that agree with you. Its not like you were actively seeking out people who found the other races to be more difficult. And using phrases like "I was struggling to win against similarly skilled opponents" is not proof that your opponent was of equal skill. wasn't really the point I was trying to make but I think T does have a lot of things about it that just make you shine if you are that much better than your opponent. If you are equal skill, its always hard for terran but it's not impossible. I'd say this games balance is pretty good but my point is the ladder is basically a nightmare for Terran players, Especially for TvP. Sooo many barcodes, there is no meta, you dont recognize anyone unless you're a ladder hero, cheese comes at your in different flavors, cuts and locations on the map game for game. the amount of times i've almost come back in a game against a pitiful player who just opened with blink > nexus or 3h 1 gas into roach ling bane, i can't even count on every poster in this thread's hands put together. Terran has a distinct advantage in prepared series imho where you can react with your build (for example, innovation getting tanks aginst symbol, lol), but that the ladder in itself is discouraging because you can't play blindly with T atm. Unit positioning in early tvp is really big on mindgames right now, ii can't tell you how many times i've been nexus into 4gated off 2 gas and just lost because i have 5 marines in my main mineral line for nexus into SG oracle timing. And Vice-versa of course. If you're an aspiring terran, playing 20 games a day and losing 10 of them to random cheese that are completely coinflip but require a very extreme or specific response is demoralizing in a way the other races simply cannot understand. The same can be said for every other race. Getting cannon rushed, proxy DTed, cheesed out or just flat out beat by people just rolling the dice is part of SC2. It happens to everyone and everyone has their most hated match up. It has always been that way.
Tell me good working cheeses for terran in TvP please except 3 base scv pull
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On September 13 2013 23:30 habeck wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 23:26 Plansix wrote:On September 13 2013 23:21 c0sm0naut wrote:On September 12 2013 03:48 Plansix wrote:On September 12 2013 03:39 SupLilSon wrote:On September 12 2013 03:29 Plansix wrote:On September 12 2013 03:11 c0sm0naut wrote:
Terran pop is very low again in gm worldwide besides KR where there at slightly more tgamers but still below 1/3rd. Protoss dominates the ladder via best of 1 format at 42%. I play r and have hit gms a few times on ladder and would say as Terran it's gonna be so hard to climb the ladder and that alone is probably demoralizing enough for the vast majority of aspiring Terran out there. After being the wol punching bag towards the end it really shouldn't be any mystery why the top Terran names are only familiar while top Z and P names are born monthly. My 2 cents. Not trying to QQ Terran is still the best race if you are the better player "Not whining or anything. Terran is a great race if you are better than your opponent, but if you are at equal skill level, they are doing to win because protoss and zerg are just easier." As I said before, the terran players are so "on message". they hit all their talking points and make sure that people know that their race is hardest. He said he plays Random... not Terran exclusively. I've had the same experience as him while playing Random and finding Terran to be much much more difficult than Protoss and to a lesser extent Zerg. Right when HoTs came out I was able to maintain a 70% winrate as Protoss (while playing random, my Terran was ~55%, Zerg was ~30%, ZvZ was a complete bitch TBH) through the first season. I hadn't played Protoss at all through the last 6 months of WoL yet I still struggled more with Terran despite playing similarly skilled opponents. Sure this is just my own personal testimony, but when Random players consistently have the same experience it might be an indication of some truth. There is a post that is directly above this where a terran player says they find protoss to be harder to play. Using confirmation bias to prove a point does not make it fact or based on good evidence. Finding a bunch of people who all say "Yeah, I play random and I think terran is hardest" only shows that you were able to find a group of people that agree with you. Its not like you were actively seeking out people who found the other races to be more difficult. And using phrases like "I was struggling to win against similarly skilled opponents" is not proof that your opponent was of equal skill. wasn't really the point I was trying to make but I think T does have a lot of things about it that just make you shine if you are that much better than your opponent. If you are equal skill, its always hard for terran but it's not impossible. I'd say this games balance is pretty good but my point is the ladder is basically a nightmare for Terran players, Especially for TvP. Sooo many barcodes, there is no meta, you dont recognize anyone unless you're a ladder hero, cheese comes at your in different flavors, cuts and locations on the map game for game. the amount of times i've almost come back in a game against a pitiful player who just opened with blink > nexus or 3h 1 gas into roach ling bane, i can't even count on every poster in this thread's hands put together. Terran has a distinct advantage in prepared series imho where you can react with your build (for example, innovation getting tanks aginst symbol, lol), but that the ladder in itself is discouraging because you can't play blindly with T atm. Unit positioning in early tvp is really big on mindgames right now, ii can't tell you how many times i've been nexus into 4gated off 2 gas and just lost because i have 5 marines in my main mineral line for nexus into SG oracle timing. And Vice-versa of course. If you're an aspiring terran, playing 20 games a day and losing 10 of them to random cheese that are completely coinflip but require a very extreme or specific response is demoralizing in a way the other races simply cannot understand. The same can be said for every other race. Getting cannon rushed, proxy DTed, cheesed out or just flat out beat by people just rolling the dice is part of SC2. It happens to everyone and everyone has their most hated match up. It has always been that way. Tell me good working cheeses for terran in TvP please except 3 base scv pull
That's not cheese, you are on 3 bases. That is a decision that you want the game to end right there and fuck everything else. Proxy 2 rax on a 2 player map has always worked for people on some level. Not all cheese is created equal however. Zerg is much better as cheesing protoss than Protoss is at cheesing zerg, in my opinion.
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On September 13 2013 23:30 habeck wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 23:26 Plansix wrote:On September 13 2013 23:21 c0sm0naut wrote:On September 12 2013 03:48 Plansix wrote:On September 12 2013 03:39 SupLilSon wrote:On September 12 2013 03:29 Plansix wrote:On September 12 2013 03:11 c0sm0naut wrote:
Terran pop is very low again in gm worldwide besides KR where there at slightly more tgamers but still below 1/3rd. Protoss dominates the ladder via best of 1 format at 42%. I play r and have hit gms a few times on ladder and would say as Terran it's gonna be so hard to climb the ladder and that alone is probably demoralizing enough for the vast majority of aspiring Terran out there. After being the wol punching bag towards the end it really shouldn't be any mystery why the top Terran names are only familiar while top Z and P names are born monthly. My 2 cents. Not trying to QQ Terran is still the best race if you are the better player "Not whining or anything. Terran is a great race if you are better than your opponent, but if you are at equal skill level, they are doing to win because protoss and zerg are just easier." As I said before, the terran players are so "on message". they hit all their talking points and make sure that people know that their race is hardest. He said he plays Random... not Terran exclusively. I've had the same experience as him while playing Random and finding Terran to be much much more difficult than Protoss and to a lesser extent Zerg. Right when HoTs came out I was able to maintain a 70% winrate as Protoss (while playing random, my Terran was ~55%, Zerg was ~30%, ZvZ was a complete bitch TBH) through the first season. I hadn't played Protoss at all through the last 6 months of WoL yet I still struggled more with Terran despite playing similarly skilled opponents. Sure this is just my own personal testimony, but when Random players consistently have the same experience it might be an indication of some truth. There is a post that is directly above this where a terran player says they find protoss to be harder to play. Using confirmation bias to prove a point does not make it fact or based on good evidence. Finding a bunch of people who all say "Yeah, I play random and I think terran is hardest" only shows that you were able to find a group of people that agree with you. Its not like you were actively seeking out people who found the other races to be more difficult. And using phrases like "I was struggling to win against similarly skilled opponents" is not proof that your opponent was of equal skill. wasn't really the point I was trying to make but I think T does have a lot of things about it that just make you shine if you are that much better than your opponent. If you are equal skill, its always hard for terran but it's not impossible. I'd say this games balance is pretty good but my point is the ladder is basically a nightmare for Terran players, Especially for TvP. Sooo many barcodes, there is no meta, you dont recognize anyone unless you're a ladder hero, cheese comes at your in different flavors, cuts and locations on the map game for game. the amount of times i've almost come back in a game against a pitiful player who just opened with blink > nexus or 3h 1 gas into roach ling bane, i can't even count on every poster in this thread's hands put together. Terran has a distinct advantage in prepared series imho where you can react with your build (for example, innovation getting tanks aginst symbol, lol), but that the ladder in itself is discouraging because you can't play blindly with T atm. Unit positioning in early tvp is really big on mindgames right now, ii can't tell you how many times i've been nexus into 4gated off 2 gas and just lost because i have 5 marines in my main mineral line for nexus into SG oracle timing. And Vice-versa of course. If you're an aspiring terran, playing 20 games a day and losing 10 of them to random cheese that are completely coinflip but require a very extreme or specific response is demoralizing in a way the other races simply cannot understand. The same can be said for every other race. Getting cannon rushed, proxy DTed, cheesed out or just flat out beat by people just rolling the dice is part of SC2. It happens to everyone and everyone has their most hated match up. It has always been that way. Tell me good working cheeses for terran in TvP please except 3 base scv pull
2 base scv pull.
EZ
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On September 13 2013 14:31 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 05:05 rd wrote:On September 13 2013 04:32 krooked wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Regarding #s of players as race X in GM:
No, you can't say its clear proof. But it counts as evidence. Another thing I've been thinking about is the fact that most serious players try to play "macro games". Historically, terrans lategame army is just straight up weaker than P/Z's, and I think we all can agree that bio-play is simply more fragile than P/Z's armies. Terran needs to babysit etc.
But back to my point, since a lot of people play kinda turtley, T gets "punished" while P/Z thrives in lategame on multiple bases. There are also match up specific problems in playing a macro game as terran.
TvP:
Having to react to the different compositions P has - Know when to engage and how to do it. Protoss doesn't really need to change things up in a standard bio vs deathball game. I also think Terran is straight up harder to control. I think storming is basically the one very important thing P needs to remember, while terran needs to snipe, spread out, focus fire and kite while macroing mid battle. Protoss ofcourse gets to instantly remax with WG tech.
Protoss also has better harass options in DT's (cloak and huge dmg output), zealots (good dmg output, high HP). DT/Zealot runbys demand respect and attention to a Terran who is probably freaking out about winning the main engagement.
Medivac dropping simply isn't that good with cannons and HTs for feedback, with very fragile units inside the medivacs.
Another problem is the fact that Terran needs to tailor his build to account for a aggressive Protoss, neglecting upgrades in the process. Protoss on the other hand is so safe that they can get 2x forge and get an upgrade advantage which put T at a disadvantage.
TvZ:
Neglecting the fact that Terran is favored in this MU these days, and biomine being extremely cost efficient, there are some trouble here as well. Terran needs to be the aggressor and keep zerg at home while securing expands (and safeguarding them against mutas/runbys), and here too Terran needs to be vary of tech switches. Zerg doesn't really fear this from Terran. Oh you went shitloads of marauders? Luckily MLB crushes marauders. Again going back to the "turtle/macro"-mindset of a lot of people, this puts T at a disadvantage if you don't know how to be aggressive at the appropriate timings and having the mechanical strength to execute it.
I'm sure similar things can be said about the other races, but I look at the games objectively and this is what I see. I simply believe Terran is more unforgiving than P/Z, more mechanically demanding and that's why there are so few good foreigner Terrans. A lot of people just switch away from Terran or give up because the learning curve is simply too steep. Remember that the pro's used to just wish to reach masters. A lot of people just give up before that with Terran because of the sheer amount of losses where its not "what could I've done better" but "I just don't have the skill to do this".
The fuck? Your post defines the antonym of objectivity. The Protoss doesn't have to change things up in a standard bio vs colossus/ht game, and neither does the Terran. The openings vary, but the end-game composition is the same every single time. The only thing Protoss has to worry about is storming. Getting EMP'ed, landing feedbacks, spacing blink stalkers with ghosts and vikings, and spreading are nothing to worry about -- below diamond. Protoss gets to instantly remax with warpgates. Terran remaxes faster in an even game where he doesn't A) Lose an engagement horribly or B) Somehow fall behind in bases and income to a Protoss. DT/Zealot runbys demand respect and attention to a Terran who is probably freaking out about winning the main engagement.. Protoss players are not freaking out about winning the main engagement. They're probably leaning back in their chair smoking a cigar while their army follows the amove command towards the Terran main. On September 13 2013 04:59 keglu wrote:On September 13 2013 03:45 rd wrote:On September 13 2013 02:51 keglu wrote:On September 13 2013 02:36 Plansix wrote:On September 13 2013 02:32 Faust852 wrote:
If we look at masters leagues, they are still way under epresented, and it's a much bigger sample. Which still proves nothing beyond the fact that there are fewer terrans playing, which could be for any number of reasons. I could simply point to the number of tournaments that protoss has won and said "Look, protoss wins the least, that means they must be the hardest to play, because it is so difficult for the top players to win events." The argument that there are fewer terran players, therefore the race must be the most difficult holds about as much water. You are like broken record, there is no less Terrans playing, there is less Terran which are in Master league in comparable to other races overall population of players. I checked and Zerg is still least played race on ladder like since beginning of sc2. You seem to like to downplay every statistical data btw. Not sure where you get your numbers from, but its points shaved off of a percentage less terrans in masters compared to the overall race ratio. There are just a LITTLE less Terrans than the other races, and consequently, there is a SLIGHTLY less than a little less Terrans in masters. edit: infact, lets just settle this right now so that we're straight on the numbers. Where are you getting yours from? Cause I'm pulling them from SC2Ranks. http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/race - more Terrans than Zergs Also 30,24 % T in general with 8.75% random players 27,45% in Masters with 2,44% random players. So expected would be about 32% Terrans, instead of 27% Unless you want to assume the difference comes from the huge spike of Terrans in Bronze, the only league Terran has 32% players in is silver -- 38% in bronze. Everywhere else it's consistently 29%, barring masters, where it dips to 27%. GM is where it dips significantly. You'd have to be able to explain why Bronze has 38% Terrans, and why it dips from 38% in bronze to 29% in gold, before you can claim masters is a difference of 5% and not 2%. I dont know where you get your data from but on my screen there i see 34% Terrans in bronze,
Foreign = EU + NA = 38% Terrans in bronze.
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I think it's pointless for the most part to debate which race is the most difficult overall. I do, however, refuse to believe there is no disparity in difficulty in late game, equal supply tvp engagements. I, as well as most of my terran brothers, would argue that to the grave.
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I don't know what race is the hardest but I know and a lot of pros admit that Terran has the highest skill ceiling. I think after a certain level Terran starts paying back in dividends but foreign terrans just haven't hit that level yet.
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On September 14 2013 01:27 9-BiT wrote:
I don't know what race is the hardest but I know and a lot of pros admit that Terran has the highest skill ceiling. I think after a certain level Terran starts paying back in dividends but foreign terrans just haven't hit that level yet.
Can you please provide citations of pros admitting to this? I have never seen an interview or any pro admit that terran has the most difficult or has the highest skill ceiling(with the exception of some well known balance whiners).
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On September 13 2013 17:56 cptjibberjabber wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 14:23 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On September 13 2013 03:47 Plansix wrote:On September 13 2013 03:39 JustPassingBy wrote:On September 13 2013 03:25 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 13 2013 03:16 Swift118 wrote:On September 13 2013 03:00 Plansix wrote:On September 13 2013 02:51 keglu wrote:On September 13 2013 02:36 Plansix wrote:On September 13 2013 02:32 Faust852 wrote:
If we look at masters leagues, they are still way under epresented, and it's a much bigger sample. Which still proves nothing beyond the fact that there are fewer terrans playing, which could be for any number of reasons. I could simply point to the number of tournaments that protoss has won and said "Look, protoss wins the least, that means they must be the hardest to play, because it is so difficult for the top players to win events." The argument that there are fewer terran players, therefore the race must be the most difficult holds about as much water. You are like broken record, there is no less Terrans playing, there is less Terran which are in Master league in comparable to other races overall population of players. I checked and Zerg is still least played race on ladder like since beginning of sc2. You seem to like to downplay every statistical data btw. Once again: correlation =/= causation There is no proof that the number of players playing terran is related to their difficulty compared to the other two races. None. People keep citing it, like a broken record and people keep pointing out that the two are not directly linked. A lot of people think that Terran requires more refined mechanics to reach the higher levels with. No amount of harassing other posters (which you do a lot of on this forum tbh) and thinking your opinion is the truth and nothing but the truth is going to change what a lot of people happen to think about this matter. He's telling the truth though. People are assuming causation without evidence, which is ridiculous. The evidence on this thread is race ratios, which is absurd because that assumes that everyone switches races all the time to specifically match game difficulty. The ratios on the races are what they are because of player preference, stubborness, difficulty, admiration, etc... Some people play it because of graphics, some want to be their favorite player, others do it because it fits them, others because they liked the story, others because they hated the story, etc... To create the direct causal relationship of race ratios and race difficulty is logically problematic. I don't see the problem with the race ratios, aren't 65k players per race enough to assume that the skill is at least somewhat equally distributed amongst all three races? edit: On September 13 2013 03:34 Big J wrote:On September 13 2013 02:51 keglu wrote:On September 13 2013 02:36 Plansix wrote:On September 13 2013 02:32 Faust852 wrote:
If we look at masters leagues, they are still way under epresented, and it's a much bigger sample. Which still proves nothing beyond the fact that there are fewer terrans playing, which could be for any number of reasons. I could simply point to the number of tournaments that protoss has won and said "Look, protoss wins the least, that means they must be the hardest to play, because it is so difficult for the top players to win events." The argument that there are fewer terran players, therefore the race must be the most difficult holds about as much water. You are like broken record, there is no less Terrans playing, there is less Terran which are in Master league in comparable to other races overall population of players. I checked and Zerg is still least played race on ladder like since beginning of sc2. You seem to like to downplay every statistical data btw. Yes, and where are those Terrans? In bronze (34%). Silver to Master, Terran has a very constant 27-29.5 percentage (GM being only a tiny bit lower with 25%). So what's more likely: a) There is a/multiple) reason/s why bronzies pick Terran more often than on average... like (example), I don't know, maybe the SC2 campaign making it so that when you hit that "search game" button for the first 5times you rather take Terran (and get placed into bronze because you are a noob), which does not represent the players that actually put time into playing the game. b) Players switching away from Terran in bronze and masters AND IN THESE LEAGUES ONLY, because those are the only (small) bumps in Terran distribution, because it is too hard for them. In my opinion it's a) (even if the example may be wrong), and therefore the Terran distribution is simply lower, which of course leads to less Terran progamers as well. With Korea being the exception because of fanboyism (Boxer, etc) So in your opinion terrans are picked more often by casual players and less often by players who want to play the game competitive? But... isn't that also something that would support the theory of the people here who claim that terran is the harder race to play successfully (or at least looks like the harder race to play successfully)...? It could be any number of things that cause the drop off which are not related to the difficulty of the race. Maybe more players start with terran in bronze, but then switch over or the other two races are simply more popular other reasons that are not difficulty. The point is that although it might be a factor, the difficult of a specific race does not dictate the number of people playing that race. Well spoken like a true theory crafter. Your last few posts positively expose your lack of experience in even playing Terran at a decent level of Masters. Notice how only two posters other than yourself challenged my post on the average mechanical, tactical and strategic requirements to be a GM Terran. If I was wrong TheDwf or NarutO would have jumped at me faster than you can say Terran imba. Please spend some time on YouTube or download replays with flash or Innovation and have a ticker each time a mechanical item (e.g. Swapping to preset map position) on my list appears. Compare that with their P or Z opponent. Do the same for a foriegn Terran and their opponent. Enough theory crafting about the supposed equality between the races and collect REAL DATA. I collected my own back in '12 which confirms, Terran is the most mechanically and tactically demanding race in the current meta of 4M. could you publish that data? I would be very interested in seeing it!
I wish I could... I have first generation MacBook Pro with SSDupgrade, there wasn't enough Space for work AND learning materials AND games 
WoL was my only game too. :-/
In any case, here's my methodology:
As explained, a ticker was used, based on 5min videos of Korean / foriegn pros playing SC2, spamming their keyboards.
I counted based on each time an action or SWITCH had to take place, macro/micro, unit composition production/pushing up ramp, etc. A caveat, a Zerg switching from scouting the map with lings to his spawn larvae macro counts as one action, likewise, a Terran calling down MULES switching to controlling his army counts as one action.
Basically each time a player has to change his thought process from subject to subject, it counts as 1.
I used the switching of map locations and actions taken at said location as one count.
In one video 5 min of MVP, I counted 35 such switches, from unit control in his push into the Terran's base, building supplying his main, keeping upgrades, building SCVs in the expansions and monitoring the edges of his unit's vision.
On the other hand, Kas own 5 min video of behind-the-scenes only counted 27 such switches.
Both were playing bio/tank with hellion openers into 12minish drops. WoL era.
MVP made 22% more decisions than Kas!
When I viewed Huk's behind-the-scene YouTube, he had 26 such switches which he went 3 gate into mass blink stalker. Keep in mind he was considered then as the fastest/best foriegn Protoss at the time
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 14 2013 01:30 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2013 01:27 9-BiT wrote:
I don't know what race is the hardest but I know and a lot of pros admit that Terran has the highest skill ceiling. I think after a certain level Terran starts paying back in dividends but foreign terrans just haven't hit that level yet. Can you please provide citations of pros admitting to this? I have never seen an interview or any pro admit that terran has the most difficult or has the highest skill ceiling(with the exception of some well known balance whiners).
I believe there was an interview with Mvp after he won GSL World Champ, where he said that T is UP, so i would not wonder at all if we were to find such a statement from terran.
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On September 13 2013 23:56 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 14:31 keglu wrote:On September 13 2013 05:05 rd wrote:On September 13 2013 04:32 krooked wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Regarding #s of players as race X in GM:
No, you can't say its clear proof. But it counts as evidence. Another thing I've been thinking about is the fact that most serious players try to play "macro games". Historically, terrans lategame army is just straight up weaker than P/Z's, and I think we all can agree that bio-play is simply more fragile than P/Z's armies. Terran needs to babysit etc.
But back to my point, since a lot of people play kinda turtley, T gets "punished" while P/Z thrives in lategame on multiple bases. There are also match up specific problems in playing a macro game as terran.
TvP:
Having to react to the different compositions P has - Know when to engage and how to do it. Protoss doesn't really need to change things up in a standard bio vs deathball game. I also think Terran is straight up harder to control. I think storming is basically the one very important thing P needs to remember, while terran needs to snipe, spread out, focus fire and kite while macroing mid battle. Protoss ofcourse gets to instantly remax with WG tech.
Protoss also has better harass options in DT's (cloak and huge dmg output), zealots (good dmg output, high HP). DT/Zealot runbys demand respect and attention to a Terran who is probably freaking out about winning the main engagement.
Medivac dropping simply isn't that good with cannons and HTs for feedback, with very fragile units inside the medivacs.
Another problem is the fact that Terran needs to tailor his build to account for a aggressive Protoss, neglecting upgrades in the process. Protoss on the other hand is so safe that they can get 2x forge and get an upgrade advantage which put T at a disadvantage.
TvZ:
Neglecting the fact that Terran is favored in this MU these days, and biomine being extremely cost efficient, there are some trouble here as well. Terran needs to be the aggressor and keep zerg at home while securing expands (and safeguarding them against mutas/runbys), and here too Terran needs to be vary of tech switches. Zerg doesn't really fear this from Terran. Oh you went shitloads of marauders? Luckily MLB crushes marauders. Again going back to the "turtle/macro"-mindset of a lot of people, this puts T at a disadvantage if you don't know how to be aggressive at the appropriate timings and having the mechanical strength to execute it.
I'm sure similar things can be said about the other races, but I look at the games objectively and this is what I see. I simply believe Terran is more unforgiving than P/Z, more mechanically demanding and that's why there are so few good foreigner Terrans. A lot of people just switch away from Terran or give up because the learning curve is simply too steep. Remember that the pro's used to just wish to reach masters. A lot of people just give up before that with Terran because of the sheer amount of losses where its not "what could I've done better" but "I just don't have the skill to do this".
The fuck? Your post defines the antonym of objectivity. The Protoss doesn't have to change things up in a standard bio vs colossus/ht game, and neither does the Terran. The openings vary, but the end-game composition is the same every single time. The only thing Protoss has to worry about is storming. Getting EMP'ed, landing feedbacks, spacing blink stalkers with ghosts and vikings, and spreading are nothing to worry about -- below diamond. Protoss gets to instantly remax with warpgates. Terran remaxes faster in an even game where he doesn't A) Lose an engagement horribly or B) Somehow fall behind in bases and income to a Protoss. DT/Zealot runbys demand respect and attention to a Terran who is probably freaking out about winning the main engagement.. Protoss players are not freaking out about winning the main engagement. They're probably leaning back in their chair smoking a cigar while their army follows the amove command towards the Terran main. On September 13 2013 04:59 keglu wrote:On September 13 2013 03:45 rd wrote:On September 13 2013 02:51 keglu wrote:On September 13 2013 02:36 Plansix wrote:On September 13 2013 02:32 Faust852 wrote:
If we look at masters leagues, they are still way under epresented, and it's a much bigger sample. Which still proves nothing beyond the fact that there are fewer terrans playing, which could be for any number of reasons. I could simply point to the number of tournaments that protoss has won and said "Look, protoss wins the least, that means they must be the hardest to play, because it is so difficult for the top players to win events." The argument that there are fewer terran players, therefore the race must be the most difficult holds about as much water. You are like broken record, there is no less Terrans playing, there is less Terran which are in Master league in comparable to other races overall population of players. I checked and Zerg is still least played race on ladder like since beginning of sc2. You seem to like to downplay every statistical data btw. Not sure where you get your numbers from, but its points shaved off of a percentage less terrans in masters compared to the overall race ratio. There are just a LITTLE less Terrans than the other races, and consequently, there is a SLIGHTLY less than a little less Terrans in masters. edit: infact, lets just settle this right now so that we're straight on the numbers. Where are you getting yours from? Cause I'm pulling them from SC2Ranks. http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/race - more Terrans than Zergs Also 30,24 % T in general with 8.75% random players 27,45% in Masters with 2,44% random players. So expected would be about 32% Terrans, instead of 27% Unless you want to assume the difference comes from the huge spike of Terrans in Bronze, the only league Terran has 32% players in is silver -- 38% in bronze. Everywhere else it's consistently 29%, barring masters, where it dips to 27%. GM is where it dips significantly. You'd have to be able to explain why Bronze has 38% Terrans, and why it dips from 38% in bronze to 29% in gold, before you can claim masters is a difference of 5% and not 2%. I dont know where you get your data from but on my screen there i see 34% Terrans in bronze, Foreign = EU + NA = 38% Terrans in bronze.
Actually its still around 34% in EU and AM but i was talking about ladder in general.
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On September 14 2013 02:49 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2013 01:30 Plansix wrote:On September 14 2013 01:27 9-BiT wrote:
I don't know what race is the hardest but I know and a lot of pros admit that Terran has the highest skill ceiling. I think after a certain level Terran starts paying back in dividends but foreign terrans just haven't hit that level yet. Can you please provide citations of pros admitting to this? I have never seen an interview or any pro admit that terran has the most difficult or has the highest skill ceiling(with the exception of some well known balance whiners). I believe there was an interview with Mvp after he won GSL World Champ, where he said that T is UP, so i would not wonder at all if we were to find such a statement from terran.
both Flash and IMMVP have made these statements if you're looking for multiple reputable sources both of longstanding players and recent entries into the meta.
There's also the hilarious Ryung moment, but that shouldn't count.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 14 2013 02:56 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2013 02:49 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 14 2013 01:30 Plansix wrote:On September 14 2013 01:27 9-BiT wrote:
I don't know what race is the hardest but I know and a lot of pros admit that Terran has the highest skill ceiling. I think after a certain level Terran starts paying back in dividends but foreign terrans just haven't hit that level yet. Can you please provide citations of pros admitting to this? I have never seen an interview or any pro admit that terran has the most difficult or has the highest skill ceiling(with the exception of some well known balance whiners). I believe there was an interview with Mvp after he won GSL World Champ, where he said that T is UP, so i would not wonder at all if we were to find such a statement from terran. both Flash and IMMVP have made these statements if you're looking for multiple reputable sources both of longstanding players and recent entries into the meta. There's also the hilarious Ryung moment, but that shouldn't count.
That Ryung's entry made Blizzard nerf infestors. It should count :D /sarcasm
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On September 14 2013 02:56 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2013 02:49 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 14 2013 01:30 Plansix wrote:On September 14 2013 01:27 9-BiT wrote:
I don't know what race is the hardest but I know and a lot of pros admit that Terran has the highest skill ceiling. I think after a certain level Terran starts paying back in dividends but foreign terrans just haven't hit that level yet. Can you please provide citations of pros admitting to this? I have never seen an interview or any pro admit that terran has the most difficult or has the highest skill ceiling(with the exception of some well known balance whiners). I believe there was an interview with Mvp after he won GSL World Champ, where he said that T is UP, so i would not wonder at all if we were to find such a statement from terran. both Flash and IMMVP have made these statements if you're looking for multiple reputable sources both of longstanding players and recent entries into the meta. There's also the hilarious Ryung moment, but that shouldn't count.
Can we count Nani'wi as one for the side of protoss, or are we only taking Korea pros? What about MCs hilarious interview Incontrol and Stephano where Stephano asks if MC thought that protoss was the most powerful and MC replied "Are you kidding me?"
I am sure we can find amazing quote from all pros about the challenges of each race.
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On September 14 2013 03:09 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2013 02:56 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 14 2013 02:49 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 14 2013 01:30 Plansix wrote:On September 14 2013 01:27 9-BiT wrote:
I don't know what race is the hardest but I know and a lot of pros admit that Terran has the highest skill ceiling. I think after a certain level Terran starts paying back in dividends but foreign terrans just haven't hit that level yet. Can you please provide citations of pros admitting to this? I have never seen an interview or any pro admit that terran has the most difficult or has the highest skill ceiling(with the exception of some well known balance whiners). I believe there was an interview with Mvp after he won GSL World Champ, where he said that T is UP, so i would not wonder at all if we were to find such a statement from terran. both Flash and IMMVP have made these statements if you're looking for multiple reputable sources both of longstanding players and recent entries into the meta. There's also the hilarious Ryung moment, but that shouldn't count. Can we count Nani'wi as one for the side of protoss, or are we only taking Korea pros? What about MCs hilarious interview Incontrol and Stephano where Stephano asks if MC thought that protoss was the most powerful and MC replied "Are you kidding me?" I am sure we can find amazing quote from all pros about the challenges of each race.
I agree, hence why I also pointed out the Ryung incident.
Going back to the topic, it is foolhardy to correlate race ratios with race difficulty because race choice is not determined solely on race difficulty.
Even *if* Terran is the hardest, I don't believe it is, but lets pretend for a bit. Even if Terran is the hardest, that still doesn't mean that less players would choose to play it *because* of the difficulty. Its the age old esport question of "if player X played Y instead of Z, would he still be as good?"
If Flash had played Zerg, instead of Terran, would he have dominated BW? If Jaedong had played Protoss, instead of Zerg, would he still have gone to so many OSL finals?
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On September 14 2013 03:09 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2013 02:56 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 14 2013 02:49 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 14 2013 01:30 Plansix wrote:On September 14 2013 01:27 9-BiT wrote:
I don't know what race is the hardest but I know and a lot of pros admit that Terran has the highest skill ceiling. I think after a certain level Terran starts paying back in dividends but foreign terrans just haven't hit that level yet. Can you please provide citations of pros admitting to this? I have never seen an interview or any pro admit that terran has the most difficult or has the highest skill ceiling(with the exception of some well known balance whiners). I believe there was an interview with Mvp after he won GSL World Champ, where he said that T is UP, so i would not wonder at all if we were to find such a statement from terran. both Flash and IMMVP have made these statements if you're looking for multiple reputable sources both of longstanding players and recent entries into the meta. There's also the hilarious Ryung moment, but that shouldn't count. Can we count Nani'wi as one for the side of protoss, or are we only taking Korea pros? What about MCs hilarious interview Incontrol and Stephano where Stephano asks if MC thought that protoss was the most powerful and MC replied "Are you kidding me?" I am sure we can find amazing quote from all pros about the challenges of each race.
He wasn't commenting on the difficulty of the race, he was merely suggesting that terran had the highest skill ceiling. While MC's comment might suggest that he thinks protoss is weak, that comment says nothing about each races skill ceiling. MC might even argue that protoss is weak because of a lower skill ceiling, but that quote nor Naniwa's and Ryungs say anything about skill ceiling.
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On September 14 2013 03:38 Mzimzim wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2013 03:09 Plansix wrote:On September 14 2013 02:56 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 14 2013 02:49 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 14 2013 01:30 Plansix wrote:On September 14 2013 01:27 9-BiT wrote:
I don't know what race is the hardest but I know and a lot of pros admit that Terran has the highest skill ceiling. I think after a certain level Terran starts paying back in dividends but foreign terrans just haven't hit that level yet. Can you please provide citations of pros admitting to this? I have never seen an interview or any pro admit that terran has the most difficult or has the highest skill ceiling(with the exception of some well known balance whiners). I believe there was an interview with Mvp after he won GSL World Champ, where he said that T is UP, so i would not wonder at all if we were to find such a statement from terran. both Flash and IMMVP have made these statements if you're looking for multiple reputable sources both of longstanding players and recent entries into the meta. There's also the hilarious Ryung moment, but that shouldn't count. Can we count Nani'wi as one for the side of protoss, or are we only taking Korea pros? What about MCs hilarious interview Incontrol and Stephano where Stephano asks if MC thought that protoss was the most powerful and MC replied "Are you kidding me?" I am sure we can find amazing quote from all pros about the challenges of each race. He wasn't commenting on the difficulty of the race, he was merely suggesting that terran had the highest skill ceiling. While MC's comment might suggest that he thinks protoss is weak, that comment says nothing about each races skill ceiling. MC might even argue that protoss is weak because of a lower skill ceiling, but that quote nor Naniwa's and Ryungs say anything about skill ceiling.
The point is that the quotes prove nothing beyond the personal opinion of a professional gamer. I could find quotes from anyone saying their specific position in football or their role in Dota 2 is the hardest position/role. Just because they are a professional gamer does not make their opinion valid or based on anything except for personal bias.
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On September 14 2013 03:41 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2013 03:38 Mzimzim wrote:On September 14 2013 03:09 Plansix wrote:On September 14 2013 02:56 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 14 2013 02:49 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 14 2013 01:30 Plansix wrote:On September 14 2013 01:27 9-BiT wrote:
I don't know what race is the hardest but I know and a lot of pros admit that Terran has the highest skill ceiling. I think after a certain level Terran starts paying back in dividends but foreign terrans just haven't hit that level yet. Can you please provide citations of pros admitting to this? I have never seen an interview or any pro admit that terran has the most difficult or has the highest skill ceiling(with the exception of some well known balance whiners). I believe there was an interview with Mvp after he won GSL World Champ, where he said that T is UP, so i would not wonder at all if we were to find such a statement from terran. both Flash and IMMVP have made these statements if you're looking for multiple reputable sources both of longstanding players and recent entries into the meta. There's also the hilarious Ryung moment, but that shouldn't count. Can we count Nani'wi as one for the side of protoss, or are we only taking Korea pros? What about MCs hilarious interview Incontrol and Stephano where Stephano asks if MC thought that protoss was the most powerful and MC replied "Are you kidding me?" I am sure we can find amazing quote from all pros about the challenges of each race. He wasn't commenting on the difficulty of the race, he was merely suggesting that terran had the highest skill ceiling. While MC's comment might suggest that he thinks protoss is weak, that comment says nothing about each races skill ceiling. MC might even argue that protoss is weak because of a lower skill ceiling, but that quote nor Naniwa's and Ryungs say anything about skill ceiling. The point is that the quotes prove nothing beyond the personal opinion of a professional gamer. I could find quotes from anyone saying their specific position in football or their role in Dota 2 is the hardest position/role. Just because they are a professional gamer does not make their opinion valid or based on anything except for personal bias.
So why did you ask for quotes few posts earlier if they dont matter?
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