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I don't play Terran because I find it boring to play MMM all day and I don't like mech. There are reasons to dislike playing a race besides difficulty. People are jumping over huge gap to get to the conclusion they want.
In many pro interviews(Moon for example), progamers reported that they decided to play Zerg because they have high APM and it suits the race. Does that mean Zerg is hardest to play? There are few women in the SC scene does that mean rts is too hard for women? Or maybe that women for some reason are not as interested in RTS than in other stuff? Why does that random internet forum has so new post per day? Must be because the forum is too difficult to use.
Logic aside, this attitude of "my race is harder than yours" is toxic. This is a victim complex. It fuels mentality like "my race should be stronger than the other 2 races because you need to put in more effort for the same reward", "He only wins because his race is ezpz", "xxx race players are entitled they already play an ez race unlike me" etc.
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On September 14 2013 10:55 krooked wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2013 09:56 Nebuchad wrote:On September 14 2013 09:50 krooked wrote:On September 14 2013 09:38 Nebuchad wrote:On September 13 2013 22:06 krooked wrote:On September 13 2013 20:54 darkscream wrote:
terran is the race with almost no thoughts towards strategy and composition, super easy forgiving macro, but demands the highest levels of army management, multitasking and aggression.
there is no shortage of foreign terrans, just a shortage of ones who penetrate deeply into WCS. I suspect it's because, from all my years watching, foreigner terrans try too hard to be creative and strategic, and not enough to be boring and effective like korean terrans do. Take QXC for example - love that guy. Is he really training himself to have 400apm and perfect micro though? Nah, QXC is the kind of guy who will proxy thor rush you. Now consider all the EU terrans - so many of them try so hard to force mech play when that's just not optimal.
There have been builds/strategies/tactics made by foreign protoss and zerg that catch on in korea. But never so for terran. This is because zerg/protoss actually have room for creativity and innovation. Catz's proxy hatch at the enemy natural is a good example, it's been used a few times by players in GSL/GSTL now. Naniwa's pvz style also really caught on, although i'm sure the meta was headed in that direction anyways. Point is though, terran is a race with almost no creativity or innovation at all, its literally just repetitive mechanical army control, poke and prod, stim and split, drop and boost, with the same 3-4 units in every matchup. Doing anything BUT standard bio is just asking to lose.
So I wonder why foreign terrans don't spent more time in marine split challenge, really. When you actually have to put 50-75% of your APM into microing all the time, and that's all that is relevant to your success, I just can't understand why any of them waste their time doing anything but the most pure carbon copy of aggressive bio builds from flash, innovation, bomber etc. Sure, they might bring those builds to the tournament, but are they actually doing those builds 12 hours a day every day before the tournament?
I think it comes down to foreigners getting bored easier. They just want to play to have fun sometimes and try different stuff. But trying different stuff as terran is a waste of time whereas that is not true for protoss and zerg. unfortunately this will always be the case until they buff literally every terran unit that isn't MMM, and nerf MMM. Terran is actually the race that needs to pay the most attention to composition in its respective match ups. That's just not the case. That's protoss. By a large margin. As a Protoss player, what scouting do you do to look at which tech terran is going for? And how do you change it up based on what you see?  None, because every terran does the same thing every game. That's a comment on the variety of terran openings, not on the importance of compositions. Yea, the rough composition is almost the same, and openings are limited. I agree with this. But Terran needs to react to Protoss and Zerg, while its "never" the other way around.
I disagree. I mean you can't just "do nothing" and play in a box all game long obviously, but you can't do that with zerg or protoss either, and protoss is the race with the less leeway on composition. As protoss if you're under attack and your opponent doesn't make a ton of mistakes, well you're just gonna die unless you have the right composition (for example, a biopush comes and you don't have aoe, or mutas come and you can't make phoenixes, or you're going zealot heavy against upgraded hellbats...). This isn't a comment on how hard it is, I mean, in the current meta it doesn't seem hard to scout mech and make the right composition against it. It's just that the composition matters more.
If you need to be convinced well just look at PvP. Coinflip builds are what they are: losses due to not having the right composition. If terran was the race that relied the most on composition, then you would lose a ton of TvTs due to composition. Well... you don't.
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On September 14 2013 10:55 krooked wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2013 09:56 Nebuchad wrote:On September 14 2013 09:50 krooked wrote:On September 14 2013 09:38 Nebuchad wrote:On September 13 2013 22:06 krooked wrote:On September 13 2013 20:54 darkscream wrote:
terran is the race with almost no thoughts towards strategy and composition, super easy forgiving macro, but demands the highest levels of army management, multitasking and aggression.
there is no shortage of foreign terrans, just a shortage of ones who penetrate deeply into WCS. I suspect it's because, from all my years watching, foreigner terrans try too hard to be creative and strategic, and not enough to be boring and effective like korean terrans do. Take QXC for example - love that guy. Is he really training himself to have 400apm and perfect micro though? Nah, QXC is the kind of guy who will proxy thor rush you. Now consider all the EU terrans - so many of them try so hard to force mech play when that's just not optimal.
There have been builds/strategies/tactics made by foreign protoss and zerg that catch on in korea. But never so for terran. This is because zerg/protoss actually have room for creativity and innovation. Catz's proxy hatch at the enemy natural is a good example, it's been used a few times by players in GSL/GSTL now. Naniwa's pvz style also really caught on, although i'm sure the meta was headed in that direction anyways. Point is though, terran is a race with almost no creativity or innovation at all, its literally just repetitive mechanical army control, poke and prod, stim and split, drop and boost, with the same 3-4 units in every matchup. Doing anything BUT standard bio is just asking to lose.
So I wonder why foreign terrans don't spent more time in marine split challenge, really. When you actually have to put 50-75% of your APM into microing all the time, and that's all that is relevant to your success, I just can't understand why any of them waste their time doing anything but the most pure carbon copy of aggressive bio builds from flash, innovation, bomber etc. Sure, they might bring those builds to the tournament, but are they actually doing those builds 12 hours a day every day before the tournament?
I think it comes down to foreigners getting bored easier. They just want to play to have fun sometimes and try different stuff. But trying different stuff as terran is a waste of time whereas that is not true for protoss and zerg. unfortunately this will always be the case until they buff literally every terran unit that isn't MMM, and nerf MMM. Terran is actually the race that needs to pay the most attention to composition in its respective match ups. That's just not the case. That's protoss. By a large margin. As a Protoss player, what scouting do you do to look at which tech terran is going for? And how do you change it up based on what you see? None, because every terran does the same thing every game. That's a comment on the variety of terran openings, not on the importance of compositions. Yea, the rough composition is almost the same, and openings are limited. I agree with this. But Terran needs to react to Protoss and Zerg, while its "never" the other way around. @ Playa I dislike the argument that terran was hard / easy whatever in BW, because it doesn't matter at all for SC2. But terran being the "a-move" race is so ridiculous that I wonder if I should even bother writing this. Nobody says kiting is hard, literally nobody. What we are saying is that since we can only do one thing at a time, its hard to kite and do everything else at the same time. It requires attention for an extended period of time. I've watched so many protoss streams where they aren't even looking at their army when engaging. A terran simply can't do this. Citing that terran is "boring" isn't really an argument, but sure. If you think its boring to play Terran that's fine. Personally I left Protoss for the same reason - too boring. But it has nothing to do with this discussion at all.
99% of Terran is stimming and kiting. If that's not hard, remind me what is hard... I realize, at least in t vs p, that good ghost usage is what really separates the tiers of players, but it's hard to sympathize with the race that has the fewest spell casters..
The argument is relevant because the same people said the same thing in BW. I've never been a "micro player." 100% macro, but microing with Terran is just a bunch of stiming... the margin for error is way too big to really punish medicore micro players. It just doesn't matter. If it does matter, you're way too bad to play any other race, anyways. That's just my opinion. I never understood the sentiment in BW, as I thought zerg was way harder (you couldn't even hotkey all of your units if you were ling heavy...).
You guys have to remember that there were very few high level Terran players in the foreign scene. Most of the good ones in BW are not even playing SC 2. If C+/B- QXC is the highest BW Terran playing in NA, well... that's probably not good. Most of them didn't continue on with SC 2. In short, none of the talented players with Terran are even playing. I was B+/A- with Terran... I'm not playing it because fuck terran. It's boring. I'm sure others feel the same way. It doesn't help.
Major is the only real high level Terran to have made the switch. You then have overrated Brat_OK. That's just not a lot of players to rely on. If you weren't that great with Terran in BW, when you actually still had to be able to macro... then odds are you won't be that amazing in SC 2. Even if Terran was the hardest race to micro with in SC 2, have you ever tried to macro with other races? Terran is mind numbling easy to macro. You feel like you could have perfect macro if you afk'd 50% of the game. It's just a joke how much easier it is now. You can have perfect macro without even leaving the screen. You want to tell me that micro is that hard/too multitask intensive. Get real.
Imo, it was mostly the maps the made Terran the hardest race in BW. I don't know what the deal is with Terran now. I just know if I had all of my marines on 1 hotkey, I'd have a hell of a time trying to split my units optimally. I just feel like people are taking the lazy way and then not accepting some of the cons that come with it, or at least acting like their race is inherently harder because of their laziness. It's rubbish to me.
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On September 14 2013 11:13 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2013 10:55 krooked wrote:On September 14 2013 09:56 Nebuchad wrote:On September 14 2013 09:50 krooked wrote:On September 14 2013 09:38 Nebuchad wrote:On September 13 2013 22:06 krooked wrote:On September 13 2013 20:54 darkscream wrote:
terran is the race with almost no thoughts towards strategy and composition, super easy forgiving macro, but demands the highest levels of army management, multitasking and aggression.
there is no shortage of foreign terrans, just a shortage of ones who penetrate deeply into WCS. I suspect it's because, from all my years watching, foreigner terrans try too hard to be creative and strategic, and not enough to be boring and effective like korean terrans do. Take QXC for example - love that guy. Is he really training himself to have 400apm and perfect micro though? Nah, QXC is the kind of guy who will proxy thor rush you. Now consider all the EU terrans - so many of them try so hard to force mech play when that's just not optimal.
There have been builds/strategies/tactics made by foreign protoss and zerg that catch on in korea. But never so for terran. This is because zerg/protoss actually have room for creativity and innovation. Catz's proxy hatch at the enemy natural is a good example, it's been used a few times by players in GSL/GSTL now. Naniwa's pvz style also really caught on, although i'm sure the meta was headed in that direction anyways. Point is though, terran is a race with almost no creativity or innovation at all, its literally just repetitive mechanical army control, poke and prod, stim and split, drop and boost, with the same 3-4 units in every matchup. Doing anything BUT standard bio is just asking to lose.
So I wonder why foreign terrans don't spent more time in marine split challenge, really. When you actually have to put 50-75% of your APM into microing all the time, and that's all that is relevant to your success, I just can't understand why any of them waste their time doing anything but the most pure carbon copy of aggressive bio builds from flash, innovation, bomber etc. Sure, they might bring those builds to the tournament, but are they actually doing those builds 12 hours a day every day before the tournament?
I think it comes down to foreigners getting bored easier. They just want to play to have fun sometimes and try different stuff. But trying different stuff as terran is a waste of time whereas that is not true for protoss and zerg. unfortunately this will always be the case until they buff literally every terran unit that isn't MMM, and nerf MMM. Terran is actually the race that needs to pay the most attention to composition in its respective match ups. That's just not the case. That's protoss. By a large margin. As a Protoss player, what scouting do you do to look at which tech terran is going for? And how do you change it up based on what you see? None, because every terran does the same thing every game. That's a comment on the variety of terran openings, not on the importance of compositions. Yea, the rough composition is almost the same, and openings are limited. I agree with this. But Terran needs to react to Protoss and Zerg, while its "never" the other way around. @ Playa I dislike the argument that terran was hard / easy whatever in BW, because it doesn't matter at all for SC2. But terran being the "a-move" race is so ridiculous that I wonder if I should even bother writing this. Nobody says kiting is hard, literally nobody. What we are saying is that since we can only do one thing at a time, its hard to kite and do everything else at the same time. It requires attention for an extended period of time. I've watched so many protoss streams where they aren't even looking at their army when engaging. A terran simply can't do this. Citing that terran is "boring" isn't really an argument, but sure. If you think its boring to play Terran that's fine. Personally I left Protoss for the same reason - too boring. But it has nothing to do with this discussion at all. 99% of Terran is stimming and kiting. If that's not hard, remind me what is hard... I realize, at least in t vs p, that good ghost usage is what really separates the tiers of players, but it's hard to sympathize with the race that has the fewest spell casters.. The argument is relevant because the same people said the same thing in BW. I've never been a "micro player." 100% macro, but microing with Terran is just a bunch of stiming... the margin for error is way too big to really punish medicore micro players. It just doesn't matter. If it does matter, you're way too bad to play any other race, anyways. That's just my opinion. I never understood the sentiment in BW, as I thought zerg was way harder (you couldn't even hotkey all of your units if you were ling heavy...). You guys have to remember that there were very few high level Terran players in the foreign scene. Most of the good ones in BW are not even playing SC 2. If C+/B- QXC is the highest BW Terran playing in NA, well... that's probably not good. Most of them didn't continue on with SC 2. In short, none of the talented players with Terran are even playing. I was B+/A- with Terran... I'm not playing it because fuck terran. It's boring. I'm sure others feel the same way. It doesn't help. Major is the only real high level Terran to have made the switch. You then have overrated Brat_OK. That's just not a lot of players to rely on. If you weren't that great with Terran in BW, when you actually still had to be able to macro... then odds are you won't be that amazing in SC 2. Even if Terran was the hardest race to micro with in SC 2, have you ever tried to macro with other races? Terran is mind numbling easy to macro. You feel like you could have perfect macro if you afk'd 50% of the game. It's just a joke how much easier it is now. You can have perfect macro without even leaving the screen. You want to tell me that micro is that hard/too multitask intensive. Get real. Imo, it was mostly the maps the made Terran the hardest race in BW. I don't know what the deal is with Terran now. I just know if I had all of my marines on 1 hotkey, I'd have a hell of a time trying to split my units optimally. I just feel like people are taking the lazy way and then not accepting some of the cons that come with it, or at least acting like their race is inherently harder because of their laziness. It's rubbish to me.
I have to agree that the non-combat aspects of Terran is so ridiculously easy as to make my head spin, speaking as a Terran player. My macro mistakes are akin to saving up too much energy on Orbitals as opposed to having 30-50 less larva over the course a game when I've played Zerg.
Not that Terran is easy, I just personally find Terran easier than the other races. To each their own.
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On September 14 2013 11:13 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2013 10:55 krooked wrote:On September 14 2013 09:56 Nebuchad wrote:On September 14 2013 09:50 krooked wrote:On September 14 2013 09:38 Nebuchad wrote:On September 13 2013 22:06 krooked wrote:On September 13 2013 20:54 darkscream wrote:
terran is the race with almost no thoughts towards strategy and composition, super easy forgiving macro, but demands the highest levels of army management, multitasking and aggression.
there is no shortage of foreign terrans, just a shortage of ones who penetrate deeply into WCS. I suspect it's because, from all my years watching, foreigner terrans try too hard to be creative and strategic, and not enough to be boring and effective like korean terrans do. Take QXC for example - love that guy. Is he really training himself to have 400apm and perfect micro though? Nah, QXC is the kind of guy who will proxy thor rush you. Now consider all the EU terrans - so many of them try so hard to force mech play when that's just not optimal.
There have been builds/strategies/tactics made by foreign protoss and zerg that catch on in korea. But never so for terran. This is because zerg/protoss actually have room for creativity and innovation. Catz's proxy hatch at the enemy natural is a good example, it's been used a few times by players in GSL/GSTL now. Naniwa's pvz style also really caught on, although i'm sure the meta was headed in that direction anyways. Point is though, terran is a race with almost no creativity or innovation at all, its literally just repetitive mechanical army control, poke and prod, stim and split, drop and boost, with the same 3-4 units in every matchup. Doing anything BUT standard bio is just asking to lose.
So I wonder why foreign terrans don't spent more time in marine split challenge, really. When you actually have to put 50-75% of your APM into microing all the time, and that's all that is relevant to your success, I just can't understand why any of them waste their time doing anything but the most pure carbon copy of aggressive bio builds from flash, innovation, bomber etc. Sure, they might bring those builds to the tournament, but are they actually doing those builds 12 hours a day every day before the tournament?
I think it comes down to foreigners getting bored easier. They just want to play to have fun sometimes and try different stuff. But trying different stuff as terran is a waste of time whereas that is not true for protoss and zerg. unfortunately this will always be the case until they buff literally every terran unit that isn't MMM, and nerf MMM. Terran is actually the race that needs to pay the most attention to composition in its respective match ups. That's just not the case. That's protoss. By a large margin. As a Protoss player, what scouting do you do to look at which tech terran is going for? And how do you change it up based on what you see? None, because every terran does the same thing every game. That's a comment on the variety of terran openings, not on the importance of compositions. Yea, the rough composition is almost the same, and openings are limited. I agree with this. But Terran needs to react to Protoss and Zerg, while its "never" the other way around. @ Playa I dislike the argument that terran was hard / easy whatever in BW, because it doesn't matter at all for SC2. But terran being the "a-move" race is so ridiculous that I wonder if I should even bother writing this. Nobody says kiting is hard, literally nobody. What we are saying is that since we can only do one thing at a time, its hard to kite and do everything else at the same time. It requires attention for an extended period of time. I've watched so many protoss streams where they aren't even looking at their army when engaging. A terran simply can't do this. Citing that terran is "boring" isn't really an argument, but sure. If you think its boring to play Terran that's fine. Personally I left Protoss for the same reason - too boring. But it has nothing to do with this discussion at all. 99% of Terran is stimming and kiting. If that's not hard, remind me what is hard... I realize, at least in t vs p, that good ghost usage is what really separates the tiers of players, but it's hard to sympathize with the race that has the fewest spell casters.. TvP: Knowing when to take engagements. After you've learned to consistently kite well, spread well and do all the actual micro, you need to know when you can take an engagement and what needs to be prioritized at that exact moment. If Protoss vs Terran a-move with maxed out armies (yes, with stim and storm etc), Protoss will win more often than not. That's why its hard against lategame protoss. Against Zerg you obviously have to stim and spread, zerg more or less a-moves. IDK how it is at top pro level, but the M zergs I know says its basically move command with lings, a-move with banes, generally speaking. What is hard about casting spells? Storm is basically "click on the units you want to kill", and fungal is "click on the units you want to stop moving"The argument is relevant because the same people said the same thing in BW. I've never been a "micro player." 100% macro, but microing with Terran is just a bunch of stiming... the margin for error is way too big to really punish medicore micro players. It just doesn't matter. If it does matter, you're way too bad to play any other race, anyways. That's just my opinion. I never understood the sentiment in BW, as I thought zerg was way harder (you couldn't even hotkey all of your units if you were ling heavy...). So terrans are just bad at the game? Basically, people who chose terran is also simply bad at the game and that's why we see so few of them be successful! Genious! Again, its not relevant because what people said about Terran in BW has nothing to do with it at all. We are talking about SC2, and all races are completely different.You guys have to remember that there were very few high level Terran players in the foreign scene. Most of the good ones in BW are not even playing SC 2. If C+/B- QXC is the highest BW Terran playing in NA, well... that's probably not good. Most of them didn't continue on with SC 2. In short, none of the talented players with Terran are even playing. I was B+/A- with Terran... I'm not playing it because fuck terran. It's boring. I'm sure others feel the same way. It doesn't help. The good P/Z foreigner bw pro's aren't playing either, whats your point? I'd like you to list the few terrans who made the switch vs all the successful P/Zs that transitioned.Major is the only real high level Terran to have made the switch. You then have overrated Brat_OK. That's just not a lot of players to rely on. If you weren't that great with Terran in BW, when you actually still had to be able to macro... then odds are you won't be that amazing in SC 2. Even if Terran was the hardest race to micro with in SC 2, have you ever tried to macro with other races? Terran is mind numbling easy to macro. You feel like you could have perfect macro if you afk'd 50% of the game. It's just a joke how much easier it is now. You can have perfect macro without even leaving the screen. You want to tell me that micro is that hard/too multitask intensive. Get real. Terran macro is harder than P/Z because you actually need to stay on it. Again, for clarification - I'm talking about lategame. If you read my previous posts I write a line between foreigners being "macro oriented" and how that puts them in a bad spot as terran. Protoss macro is more forgiving because you can get all your units out at an instance, while terran needs to wait for them. That means that its more important to macro mid-battle for Terran than P/Z. P gets all the units out at once, zerg can make extremely many units (without adding loads of extra buildings etc). Z escapes the problem of having too few production facilities lategame - this problem can arise for both T and P, but again, P has WG.
Again, Protoss can actually just wait till after the engagement is finished and then warp in. Its obviously sub optimal, but way more forgiving than not being able to mid-battle. With lower requirements for micro in engagements, they can also leave to macro freely. If you watch any protoss pro play you will see that they do this very often. I won't bother addressing the 50% away from the game line because its just silly.Imo, it was mostly the maps the made Terran the hardest race in BW. I don't know what the deal is with Terran now. I just know if I had all of my marines on 1 hotkey, I'd have a hell of a time trying to split my units optimally. I just feel like people are taking the lazy way and then not accepting some of the cons that come with it, or at least acting like their race is inherently harder because of their laziness. It's rubbish to me. Sure, when your opinion is that terran is all a-move and perfect macro while making dinner, I understand how it all seems very peculiar to you - both that foreigner terrans are struggling and that we are saying its the hardest race. Totally understand you man.
@ Magpie
Injecting is very forgiving and once you reach dia you basically always have enough larvae in lategame scenarios. It also adds up automatically so it basically adds production facilities for you. I understand that its hard up until maybe gold/plat, but after that its very easy. How terran macro is easier than P/Z I will never understand. Closer to other RTS-games? Yes. But that's where the "easy" part stops. As I've already said, in lategame scenarios both P and Z macro is way more forgiving and less multitask-taxing than Terran's macro.
On September 14 2013 11:11 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2013 10:55 krooked wrote:On September 14 2013 09:56 Nebuchad wrote:On September 14 2013 09:50 krooked wrote:On September 14 2013 09:38 Nebuchad wrote:On September 13 2013 22:06 krooked wrote:On September 13 2013 20:54 darkscream wrote:
terran is the race with almost no thoughts towards strategy and composition, super easy forgiving macro, but demands the highest levels of army management, multitasking and aggression.
there is no shortage of foreign terrans, just a shortage of ones who penetrate deeply into WCS. I suspect it's because, from all my years watching, foreigner terrans try too hard to be creative and strategic, and not enough to be boring and effective like korean terrans do. Take QXC for example - love that guy. Is he really training himself to have 400apm and perfect micro though? Nah, QXC is the kind of guy who will proxy thor rush you. Now consider all the EU terrans - so many of them try so hard to force mech play when that's just not optimal.
There have been builds/strategies/tactics made by foreign protoss and zerg that catch on in korea. But never so for terran. This is because zerg/protoss actually have room for creativity and innovation. Catz's proxy hatch at the enemy natural is a good example, it's been used a few times by players in GSL/GSTL now. Naniwa's pvz style also really caught on, although i'm sure the meta was headed in that direction anyways. Point is though, terran is a race with almost no creativity or innovation at all, its literally just repetitive mechanical army control, poke and prod, stim and split, drop and boost, with the same 3-4 units in every matchup. Doing anything BUT standard bio is just asking to lose.
So I wonder why foreign terrans don't spent more time in marine split challenge, really. When you actually have to put 50-75% of your APM into microing all the time, and that's all that is relevant to your success, I just can't understand why any of them waste their time doing anything but the most pure carbon copy of aggressive bio builds from flash, innovation, bomber etc. Sure, they might bring those builds to the tournament, but are they actually doing those builds 12 hours a day every day before the tournament?
I think it comes down to foreigners getting bored easier. They just want to play to have fun sometimes and try different stuff. But trying different stuff as terran is a waste of time whereas that is not true for protoss and zerg. unfortunately this will always be the case until they buff literally every terran unit that isn't MMM, and nerf MMM. Terran is actually the race that needs to pay the most attention to composition in its respective match ups. That's just not the case. That's protoss. By a large margin. As a Protoss player, what scouting do you do to look at which tech terran is going for? And how do you change it up based on what you see? None, because every terran does the same thing every game. That's a comment on the variety of terran openings, not on the importance of compositions. Yea, the rough composition is almost the same, and openings are limited. I agree with this. But Terran needs to react to Protoss and Zerg, while its "never" the other way around. I disagree. I mean you can't just "do nothing" and play in a box all game long obviously, but you can't do that with zerg or protoss either, and protoss is the race with the less leeway on composition. As protoss if you're under attack and your opponent doesn't make a ton of mistakes, well you're just gonna die unless you have the right composition (for example, a biopush comes and you don't have aoe, or mutas come and you can't make phoenixes, or you're going zealot heavy against upgraded hellbats...). This isn't a comment on how hard it is, I mean, in the current meta it doesn't seem hard to scout mech and make the right composition against it. It's just that the composition matters more. If you need to be convinced well just look at PvP. Coinflip builds are what they are: losses due to not having the right composition. If terran was the race that relied the most on composition, then you would lose a ton of TvTs due to composition. Well... you don't.
Again, to clarify - I'm talking about late game scenarios. The fact that Protoss HAS to have AoE early is common knowledge and if you've made platinum you probably know this. That's why protoss all ins are so all in. But all through mid/lategame, Terran needs to look for colossi count and add vikings in response, or look at zealot count and chill out on the marauders etc. After a big engagement it gets worse, because Protoss can warp in a lot of zealots while making colossi out of 3 robos. Or maybe this time they go for zealot archon etc. This is stuff that Terran needs to respond to. What tech switch can terran make? Pure marine? Dies to AoE which protoss will have no matter what. Pure Rauder? Dies to the cheapest unit Protoss has. Terran needs to get basically the same units every time and look for how many of which.
Upgraded hellbats requires a lot of investment and will be spotted quite easily. You will know in advance that they are coming, no way that you get caught by surprise with 15 2-2 hellbats or something.
I don't understand your TvT argument, how does that have anything to do with TvP or TvZ?
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On September 14 2013 12:03 krooked wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 14 2013 11:13 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2013 10:55 krooked wrote:On September 14 2013 09:56 Nebuchad wrote:On September 14 2013 09:50 krooked wrote:On September 14 2013 09:38 Nebuchad wrote:On September 13 2013 22:06 krooked wrote:On September 13 2013 20:54 darkscream wrote:
terran is the race with almost no thoughts towards strategy and composition, super easy forgiving macro, but demands the highest levels of army management, multitasking and aggression.
there is no shortage of foreign terrans, just a shortage of ones who penetrate deeply into WCS. I suspect it's because, from all my years watching, foreigner terrans try too hard to be creative and strategic, and not enough to be boring and effective like korean terrans do. Take QXC for example - love that guy. Is he really training himself to have 400apm and perfect micro though? Nah, QXC is the kind of guy who will proxy thor rush you. Now consider all the EU terrans - so many of them try so hard to force mech play when that's just not optimal.
There have been builds/strategies/tactics made by foreign protoss and zerg that catch on in korea. But never so for terran. This is because zerg/protoss actually have room for creativity and innovation. Catz's proxy hatch at the enemy natural is a good example, it's been used a few times by players in GSL/GSTL now. Naniwa's pvz style also really caught on, although i'm sure the meta was headed in that direction anyways. Point is though, terran is a race with almost no creativity or innovation at all, its literally just repetitive mechanical army control, poke and prod, stim and split, drop and boost, with the same 3-4 units in every matchup. Doing anything BUT standard bio is just asking to lose.
So I wonder why foreign terrans don't spent more time in marine split challenge, really. When you actually have to put 50-75% of your APM into microing all the time, and that's all that is relevant to your success, I just can't understand why any of them waste their time doing anything but the most pure carbon copy of aggressive bio builds from flash, innovation, bomber etc. Sure, they might bring those builds to the tournament, but are they actually doing those builds 12 hours a day every day before the tournament?
I think it comes down to foreigners getting bored easier. They just want to play to have fun sometimes and try different stuff. But trying different stuff as terran is a waste of time whereas that is not true for protoss and zerg. unfortunately this will always be the case until they buff literally every terran unit that isn't MMM, and nerf MMM. Terran is actually the race that needs to pay the most attention to composition in its respective match ups. That's just not the case. That's protoss. By a large margin. As a Protoss player, what scouting do you do to look at which tech terran is going for? And how do you change it up based on what you see? None, because every terran does the same thing every game. That's a comment on the variety of terran openings, not on the importance of compositions. Yea, the rough composition is almost the same, and openings are limited. I agree with this. But Terran needs to react to Protoss and Zerg, while its "never" the other way around. @ Playa I dislike the argument that terran was hard / easy whatever in BW, because it doesn't matter at all for SC2. But terran being the "a-move" race is so ridiculous that I wonder if I should even bother writing this. Nobody says kiting is hard, literally nobody. What we are saying is that since we can only do one thing at a time, its hard to kite and do everything else at the same time. It requires attention for an extended period of time. I've watched so many protoss streams where they aren't even looking at their army when engaging. A terran simply can't do this. Citing that terran is "boring" isn't really an argument, but sure. If you think its boring to play Terran that's fine. Personally I left Protoss for the same reason - too boring. But it has nothing to do with this discussion at all. 99% of Terran is stimming and kiting. If that's not hard, remind me what is hard... I realize, at least in t vs p, that good ghost usage is what really separates the tiers of players, but it's hard to sympathize with the race that has the fewest spell casters.. TvP: Knowing when to take engagements. After you've learned to consistently kite well, spread well and do all the actual micro, you need to know when you can take an engagement and what needs to be prioritized at that exact moment. If Protoss vs Terran a-move with maxed out armies (yes, with stim and storm etc), Protoss will win more often than not. That's why its hard against lategame protoss. Against Zerg you obviously have to stim and spread, zerg more or less a-moves. IDK how it is at top pro level, but the M zergs I know says its basically move command with lings, a-move with banes, generally speaking. What is hard about casting spells? Storm is basically "click on the units you want to kill", and fungal is "click on the units you want to stop moving"The argument is relevant because the same people said the same thing in BW. I've never been a "micro player." 100% macro, but microing with Terran is just a bunch of stiming... the margin for error is way too big to really punish medicore micro players. It just doesn't matter. If it does matter, you're way too bad to play any other race, anyways. That's just my opinion. I never understood the sentiment in BW, as I thought zerg was way harder (you couldn't even hotkey all of your units if you were ling heavy...). So terrans are just bad at the game? Basically, people who chose terran is also simply bad at the game and that's why we see so few of them be successful! Genious! Again, its not relevant because what people said about Terran in BW has nothing to do with it at all. We are talking about SC2, and all races are completely different.You guys have to remember that there were very few high level Terran players in the foreign scene. Most of the good ones in BW are not even playing SC 2. If C+/B- QXC is the highest BW Terran playing in NA, well... that's probably not good. Most of them didn't continue on with SC 2. In short, none of the talented players with Terran are even playing. I was B+/A- with Terran... I'm not playing it because fuck terran. It's boring. I'm sure others feel the same way. It doesn't help. The good P/Z foreigner bw pro's aren't playing either, whats your point? I'd like you to list the few terrans who made the switch vs all the successful P/Zs that transitioned.Major is the only real high level Terran to have made the switch. You then have overrated Brat_OK. That's just not a lot of players to rely on. If you weren't that great with Terran in BW, when you actually still had to be able to macro... then odds are you won't be that amazing in SC 2. Even if Terran was the hardest race to micro with in SC 2, have you ever tried to macro with other races? Terran is mind numbling easy to macro. You feel like you could have perfect macro if you afk'd 50% of the game. It's just a joke how much easier it is now. You can have perfect macro without even leaving the screen. You want to tell me that micro is that hard/too multitask intensive. Get real. Terran macro is harder than P/Z because you actually need to stay on it. Again, for clarification - I'm talking about lategame. If you read my previous posts I write a line between foreigners being "macro oriented" and how that puts them in a bad spot as terran. Protoss macro is more forgiving because you can get all your units out at an instance, while terran needs to wait for them. That means that its more important to macro mid-battle for Terran than P/Z. P gets all the units out at once, zerg can make extremely many units (without adding loads of extra buildings etc). Z escapes the problem of having too few production facilities lategame - this problem can arise for both T and P, but again, P has WG.
Again, Protoss can actually just wait till after the engagement is finished and then warp in. Its obviously sub optimal, but way more forgiving than not being able to mid-battle. With lower requirements for micro in engagements, they can also leave to macro freely. If you watch any protoss pro play you will see that they do this very often. I won't bother addressing the 50% away from the game line because its just silly.Imo, it was mostly the maps the made Terran the hardest race in BW. I don't know what the deal is with Terran now. I just know if I had all of my marines on 1 hotkey, I'd have a hell of a time trying to split my units optimally. I just feel like people are taking the lazy way and then not accepting some of the cons that come with it, or at least acting like their race is inherently harder because of their laziness. It's rubbish to me. Sure, when your opinion is that terran is all a-move and perfect macro while making dinner, I understand how it all seems very peculiar to you - both that foreigner terrans are struggling and that we are saying its the hardest race. Totally understand you man. @ Magpie Injecting is very forgiving and once you reach dia you basically always have enough larvae in lategame scenarios. It also adds up automatically so it basically adds production facilities for you. I understand that its hard up until maybe gold/plat, but after that its very easy. How terran macro is easier than P/Z I will never understand. Closer to other RTS-games? Yes. But that's where the "easy" part stops. As I've already said, in lategame scenarios both P and Z macro is way more forgiving and less multitask-taxing than Terran's macro.
Its personal preference mostly. Terran has the least things needed to juggle to macro properly, but is not explosive. Zerg is the most explosive, but has the most to juggle.
I find Zerg macro the most intuitive, but I always slip once I get to the 20 minute mark or so, brain and hands just lose focus and suddenly I can't reinforce.
Terran is always good--but if I lose to many dudes it's hard to make up the difference in time.
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When I think of good foreign Toss players, I can't help but to think of ex WC 3 players. It just doesn't help when the most talented foreigner players from that game seemed to choose Toss (most similar to WC 3 races I guess). People could be good with Terran, as there's no way it's harder now than it was in BW, but "the right people" actually have to pick it. If more of those people were willing to choose it, there would be more lucifrons and thorzains.
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On September 14 2013 10:17 ysnake wrote:
To sum this thread up:
There are few foreign Terrans because it is very hard to play it, while Zerg and Protoss are a-move races.
Can we get a lock on this thread already?
Terran is the most difficult mechanically, meaning it takes the most time to perfect but has a higher skill cap. Foreigners don't have the time required to master the mechanics
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On September 14 2013 10:17 ysnake wrote:
Can we get a lock on this thread already?
seriously!
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On September 14 2013 12:33 DusTerr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2013 10:17 ysnake wrote:
Can we get a lock on this thread already? seriously!
Why? The discussion is more or less to the point. Its actually possible to use logic and facts around the topic, as long as the less serious posts are ignored/deleted.
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On September 14 2013 12:03 krooked wrote:
Again, to clarify - I'm talking about late game scenarios. The fact that Protoss HAS to have AoE early is common knowledge and if you've made platinum you probably know this. That's why protoss all ins are so all in. But all through mid/lategame, Terran needs to look for colossi count and add vikings in response, or look at zealot count and chill out on the marauders etc. After a big engagement it gets worse, because Protoss can warp in a lot of zealots while making colossi out of 3 robos. Or maybe this time they go for zealot archon etc. This is stuff that Terran needs to respond to. What tech switch can terran make? Pure marine? Dies to AoE which protoss will have no matter what. Pure Rauder? Dies to the cheapest unit Protoss has. Terran needs to get basically the same units every time and look for how many of which.
Upgraded hellbats requires a lot of investment and will be spotted quite easily. You will know in advance that they are coming, no way that you get caught by surprise with 15 2-2 hellbats or something.
I don't understand your TvT argument, how does that have anything to do with TvP or TvZ?
Who cares if it's common knowledge? Isn't it common knowledge that you need vikings to deal with colossi? That says nothing about the importance of composition. If anything, the more a composition requirement is common knowledge, the more the composition is, well, required.
I can give you a common example of leeway. Let's say I'm opening templars, and you don't have ghosts yet. You can dodge storms through micro, and thus beat my composition even though you don't counter it. It's hard, but it's been done (Happy comes to mind). If you have stimmed bioball and I don't have aoe, I'm not going to finesse my way into a win. No leeway at all. If you're going mech and for some reason I never scout it and have an anti-bioball army, I don't think I can win (this would never happen and mech sux so maybe I could, anyway I doubt it).
We can go a bit deeper and say that's the reason a lot of people don't like to play against protoss, or feel like the race takes no skill or is a-move: because when you win with protoss, it's a lot of the time because your composition counters your opponent's composition, so that your opponent has no chance at all.
About the TvT vs PvP, well, if composition was so important to terran, then it should reflect in TvT, because that's where composition would have the most impact (both players playing the race where composition matters the most). That's not what happens. On the other hand, you see it almost every series in PvP. Kind of makes my case.
I invite you to play protoss for a little while and not really focus on composition. You'll feel very bad, very soon.
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I think the reason more Koreans pick Terran compare to foreigners is because the Korean style is more cut-throat, aggressive and this style naturally favors Terran. When I play Terran I don't have trouble with stutter steps or splitting but it is knowing how to be aggressive that gave me the most trouble - knowing when to do drop, where to drop etc. Foreigners tend to be more comfortable with passive play. It is not only Starcraft the Koreans have displayed their propensity for aggressive style but also in other competitive sports e.g. football and Go. I have also played another turn-based strategy game where the Koreans play an aggressive style. I am not sure about fighting games but it would not surprise me if the Koreans favor aggressive play as well.
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On September 14 2013 12:51 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2013 12:03 krooked wrote:
Again, to clarify - I'm talking about late game scenarios. The fact that Protoss HAS to have AoE early is common knowledge and if you've made platinum you probably know this. That's why protoss all ins are so all in. But all through mid/lategame, Terran needs to look for colossi count and add vikings in response, or look at zealot count and chill out on the marauders etc. After a big engagement it gets worse, because Protoss can warp in a lot of zealots while making colossi out of 3 robos. Or maybe this time they go for zealot archon etc. This is stuff that Terran needs to respond to. What tech switch can terran make? Pure marine? Dies to AoE which protoss will have no matter what. Pure Rauder? Dies to the cheapest unit Protoss has. Terran needs to get basically the same units every time and look for how many of which.
Upgraded hellbats requires a lot of investment and will be spotted quite easily. You will know in advance that they are coming, no way that you get caught by surprise with 15 2-2 hellbats or something.
I don't understand your TvT argument, how does that have anything to do with TvP or TvZ? Who cares if it's common knowledge? Isn't it common knowledge that you need vikings to deal with colossi? That says nothing about the importance of composition. If anything, the more a composition requirement is common knowledge, the more the composition is, well, required. I can give you a common example of leeway. Let's say I'm opening templars, and you don't have ghosts yet. You can dodge storms through micro, and thus beat my composition even though you don't counter it. It's hard, but it's been done (Happy comes to mind). If you have stimmed bioball and I don't have aoe, I'm not going to finesse my way into a win. No leeway at all. If you're going mech and for some reason I never scout it and have an anti-bioball army, I don't think I can win (this would never happen and mech sux so maybe I could, anyway I doubt it). We can go a bit deeper and say that's the reason a lot of people don't like to play against protoss, or feel like the race takes no skill or is a-move: because when you win with protoss, it's a lot of the time because your composition counters your opponent's composition, so that your opponent has no chance at all. About the TvT vs PvP, well, if composition was so important to terran, then it should reflect in TvT, because that's where composition would have the most impact (both players playing the race where composition matters the most). That's not what happens. On the other hand, you see it almost every series in PvP. Kind of makes my case. I invite you to play protoss for a little while and not really focus on composition. You'll feel very bad, very soon.
Yes, its common knowledge that MMMVG is the best comp against P. But to put your statement into perspective: Its death to a terran if he doesn't have stim and an attack comes. Just like no protoss build leads you into no AoE early, no Terran builds neglect Stim.
I agree completely that Terran units are way more microable and once Protoss has gotten caught they can't win the engagement via micro. And I also agree that you can micro through storm, but remember the topic - What's hardest. Players at dia/masters won't have a lot of success trying to engage HTs without ghost unless its a weird HT rush build which leaves P so naked that if he doesn't lose his entire army he just wins.
Stimmed bioball vs no AoE doesn't really happen unless the protoss has done something very very weird, or the terran is all inning you. For clarification, I assume a standard game without any crazy all ins. I don't think anyone disagrees with me that if we talk about all ins, P has way more variety than T has today.
Seeing if T goes mech or not is extremely easy and you would have to be very low level to let that happen. That's like saying "if P goes mass immortal/zealot I just lose because I have too many marauders". Again, lets assume a standard macrogame. Protoss can tech switch and Terran needs to react. That's how the matchup works in 99.9% of games that you would count as standard. Agree?
I would for sure say that a lot of PvTs are won because P has a superior composition - Because Terran failed to react to it. Not because Protoss relentlessly scouted for T's comp and countered it. Just for clarification, I don't rip on Z/P for being a-move races. I know a lot of people do, but just so we are clear Each race has its drawbacks, I just believe that Terran has some issues which are harder to master for a player who is serious but low level (dia/masters etc), and that Terran losses oftentimes is "I just didn't play well enough", while P/Z losses oftentimes comes down to bad decision making, and not engagement management.
Regarding TvT/PvP, as we all know Terran is very limited in which units to use. That's why biomine is whats up TvZ, MMMVG vs P and only three viable comps in the mirror MU. This I think we all can agree upon. What I'm talking about is that Terran, against P and Z, needs to pay attention to tech switches and which units P/Z are making. Terran has no tech switch and needs to react to the units Zerg makes. Examples:
Zerg has roach/hydra, BL, Infestor, Muta, Ultralisk. They all require different answers in ways to play and unit composition. Roach/hydra and Infestor or mutalisk is pretty easy to find out about and react to, but BL/Ultra is harder and if terran is caught off guard, he dies.
Vs P you got the examples I wrote in my previous post. Colossi count, archon count, zealot count, big colossi switch etc. Terran can't do switches, they simply need to react to what the opponent is making. Since P/Z has more viable possibilities than T, P/Z can take comfort in what they are up against.
Remember, I'm not saying that this makes Terran harder on top level, but for newer players that are serious (dia/m) will have issues with these things, and tied in with most serious foreigners wanting to play macrogames, these are issues that Terran faces.
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On September 14 2013 11:29 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2013 11:13 playa wrote:On September 14 2013 10:55 krooked wrote:On September 14 2013 09:56 Nebuchad wrote:On September 14 2013 09:50 krooked wrote:On September 14 2013 09:38 Nebuchad wrote:On September 13 2013 22:06 krooked wrote:On September 13 2013 20:54 darkscream wrote:
terran is the race with almost no thoughts towards strategy and composition, super easy forgiving macro, but demands the highest levels of army management, multitasking and aggression.
there is no shortage of foreign terrans, just a shortage of ones who penetrate deeply into WCS. I suspect it's because, from all my years watching, foreigner terrans try too hard to be creative and strategic, and not enough to be boring and effective like korean terrans do. Take QXC for example - love that guy. Is he really training himself to have 400apm and perfect micro though? Nah, QXC is the kind of guy who will proxy thor rush you. Now consider all the EU terrans - so many of them try so hard to force mech play when that's just not optimal.
There have been builds/strategies/tactics made by foreign protoss and zerg that catch on in korea. But never so for terran. This is because zerg/protoss actually have room for creativity and innovation. Catz's proxy hatch at the enemy natural is a good example, it's been used a few times by players in GSL/GSTL now. Naniwa's pvz style also really caught on, although i'm sure the meta was headed in that direction anyways. Point is though, terran is a race with almost no creativity or innovation at all, its literally just repetitive mechanical army control, poke and prod, stim and split, drop and boost, with the same 3-4 units in every matchup. Doing anything BUT standard bio is just asking to lose.
So I wonder why foreign terrans don't spent more time in marine split challenge, really. When you actually have to put 50-75% of your APM into microing all the time, and that's all that is relevant to your success, I just can't understand why any of them waste their time doing anything but the most pure carbon copy of aggressive bio builds from flash, innovation, bomber etc. Sure, they might bring those builds to the tournament, but are they actually doing those builds 12 hours a day every day before the tournament?
I think it comes down to foreigners getting bored easier. They just want to play to have fun sometimes and try different stuff. But trying different stuff as terran is a waste of time whereas that is not true for protoss and zerg. unfortunately this will always be the case until they buff literally every terran unit that isn't MMM, and nerf MMM. Terran is actually the race that needs to pay the most attention to composition in its respective match ups. That's just not the case. That's protoss. By a large margin. As a Protoss player, what scouting do you do to look at which tech terran is going for? And how do you change it up based on what you see? None, because every terran does the same thing every game. That's a comment on the variety of terran openings, not on the importance of compositions. Yea, the rough composition is almost the same, and openings are limited. I agree with this. But Terran needs to react to Protoss and Zerg, while its "never" the other way around. @ Playa I dislike the argument that terran was hard / easy whatever in BW, because it doesn't matter at all for SC2. But terran being the "a-move" race is so ridiculous that I wonder if I should even bother writing this. Nobody says kiting is hard, literally nobody. What we are saying is that since we can only do one thing at a time, its hard to kite and do everything else at the same time. It requires attention for an extended period of time. I've watched so many protoss streams where they aren't even looking at their army when engaging. A terran simply can't do this. Citing that terran is "boring" isn't really an argument, but sure. If you think its boring to play Terran that's fine. Personally I left Protoss for the same reason - too boring. But it has nothing to do with this discussion at all. 99% of Terran is stimming and kiting. If that's not hard, remind me what is hard... I realize, at least in t vs p, that good ghost usage is what really separates the tiers of players, but it's hard to sympathize with the race that has the fewest spell casters.. The argument is relevant because the same people said the same thing in BW. I've never been a "micro player." 100% macro, but microing with Terran is just a bunch of stiming... the margin for error is way too big to really punish medicore micro players. It just doesn't matter. If it does matter, you're way too bad to play any other race, anyways. That's just my opinion. I never understood the sentiment in BW, as I thought zerg was way harder (you couldn't even hotkey all of your units if you were ling heavy...). You guys have to remember that there were very few high level Terran players in the foreign scene. Most of the good ones in BW are not even playing SC 2. If C+/B- QXC is the highest BW Terran playing in NA, well... that's probably not good. Most of them didn't continue on with SC 2. In short, none of the talented players with Terran are even playing. I was B+/A- with Terran... I'm not playing it because fuck terran. It's boring. I'm sure others feel the same way. It doesn't help. Major is the only real high level Terran to have made the switch. You then have overrated Brat_OK. That's just not a lot of players to rely on. If you weren't that great with Terran in BW, when you actually still had to be able to macro... then odds are you won't be that amazing in SC 2. Even if Terran was the hardest race to micro with in SC 2, have you ever tried to macro with other races? Terran is mind numbling easy to macro. You feel like you could have perfect macro if you afk'd 50% of the game. It's just a joke how much easier it is now. You can have perfect macro without even leaving the screen. You want to tell me that micro is that hard/too multitask intensive. Get real. Imo, it was mostly the maps the made Terran the hardest race in BW. I don't know what the deal is with Terran now. I just know if I had all of my marines on 1 hotkey, I'd have a hell of a time trying to split my units optimally. I just feel like people are taking the lazy way and then not accepting some of the cons that come with it, or at least acting like their race is inherently harder because of their laziness. It's rubbish to me. I have to agree that the non-combat aspects of Terran is so ridiculously easy as to make my head spin, speaking as a Terran player. My macro mistakes are akin to saving up too much energy on Orbitals as opposed to having 30-50 less larva over the course a game when I've played Zerg. Not that Terran is easy, I just personally find Terran easier than the other races. To each their own.
Exactly, you have to realise, that each race has some aspects that are easier than others, it has always been that way and the charm of Starcraft. Each race is different from the first building, the first unit, the first look, etc.
There is no doubt the first 10 minutes are easier for Terran a forgiving building structure and economic booster. With that ease comes inflexibility.
Unlike Zerg, a Terran cannot have a troop surge unless he planned for it.
Unlike Protoss, a Terran can neither rush his unit build queue nor his research. terran cannot be resuppling his army if his units get ambushed mid rally.
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On September 14 2013 13:11 krooked wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2013 12:51 Nebuchad wrote:On September 14 2013 12:03 krooked wrote:
Again, to clarify - I'm talking about late game scenarios. The fact that Protoss HAS to have AoE early is common knowledge and if you've made platinum you probably know this. That's why protoss all ins are so all in. But all through mid/lategame, Terran needs to look for colossi count and add vikings in response, or look at zealot count and chill out on the marauders etc. After a big engagement it gets worse, because Protoss can warp in a lot of zealots while making colossi out of 3 robos. Or maybe this time they go for zealot archon etc. This is stuff that Terran needs to respond to. What tech switch can terran make? Pure marine? Dies to AoE which protoss will have no matter what. Pure Rauder? Dies to the cheapest unit Protoss has. Terran needs to get basically the same units every time and look for how many of which.
Upgraded hellbats requires a lot of investment and will be spotted quite easily. You will know in advance that they are coming, no way that you get caught by surprise with 15 2-2 hellbats or something.
I don't understand your TvT argument, how does that have anything to do with TvP or TvZ? Who cares if it's common knowledge? Isn't it common knowledge that you need vikings to deal with colossi? That says nothing about the importance of composition. If anything, the more a composition requirement is common knowledge, the more the composition is, well, required. I can give you a common example of leeway. Let's say I'm opening templars, and you don't have ghosts yet. You can dodge storms through micro, and thus beat my composition even though you don't counter it. It's hard, but it's been done (Happy comes to mind). If you have stimmed bioball and I don't have aoe, I'm not going to finesse my way into a win. No leeway at all. If you're going mech and for some reason I never scout it and have an anti-bioball army, I don't think I can win (this would never happen and mech sux so maybe I could, anyway I doubt it). We can go a bit deeper and say that's the reason a lot of people don't like to play against protoss, or feel like the race takes no skill or is a-move: because when you win with protoss, it's a lot of the time because your composition counters your opponent's composition, so that your opponent has no chance at all. About the TvT vs PvP, well, if composition was so important to terran, then it should reflect in TvT, because that's where composition would have the most impact (both players playing the race where composition matters the most). That's not what happens. On the other hand, you see it almost every series in PvP. Kind of makes my case. I invite you to play protoss for a little while and not really focus on composition. You'll feel very bad, very soon. Yes, its common knowledge that MMMVG is the best comp against P. But to put your statement into perspective: Its death to a terran if he doesn't have stim and an attack comes. Just like no protoss build leads you into no AoE early, no Terran builds neglect Stim. I agree completely that Terran units are way more microable and once Protoss has gotten caught they can't win the engagement via micro. And I also agree that you can micro through storm, but remember the topic - What's hardest. Players at dia/masters won't have a lot of success trying to engage HTs without ghost unless its a weird HT rush build which leaves P so naked that if he doesn't lose his entire army he just wins. Stimmed bioball vs no AoE doesn't really happen unless the protoss has done something very very weird, or the terran is all inning you. For clarification, I assume a standard game without any crazy all ins. I don't think anyone disagrees with me that if we talk about all ins, P has way more variety than T has today. Seeing if T goes mech or not is extremely easy and you would have to be very low level to let that happen. That's like saying "if P goes mass immortal/zealot I just lose because I have too many marauders". Again, lets assume a standard macrogame. Protoss can tech switch and Terran needs to react. That's how the matchup works in 99.9% of games that you would count as standard. Agree? I would for sure say that a lot of PvTs are won because P has a superior composition - Because Terran failed to react to it. Not because Protoss relentlessly scouted for T's comp and countered it. Just for clarification, I don't rip on Z/P for being a-move races. I know a lot of people do, but just so we are clear Each race has its drawbacks, I just believe that Terran has some issues which are harder to master for a player who is serious but low level (dia/masters etc), and that Terran losses oftentimes is "I just didn't play well enough", while P/Z losses oftentimes comes down to bad decision making, and not engagement management. Regarding TvT/PvP, as we all know Terran is very limited in which units to use. That's why biomine is whats up TvZ, MMMVG vs P and only three viable comps in the mirror MU. This I think we all can agree upon. What I'm talking about is that Terran, against P and Z, needs to pay attention to tech switches and which units P/Z are making. Terran has no tech switch and needs to react to the units Zerg makes. Examples: Zerg has roach/hydra, BL, Infestor, Muta, Ultralisk. They all require different answers in ways to play and unit composition. Roach/hydra and Infestor or mutalisk is pretty easy to find out about and react to, but BL/Ultra is harder and if terran is caught off guard, he dies. Vs P you got the examples I wrote in my previous post. Colossi count, archon count, zealot count, big colossi switch etc. Terran can't do switches, they simply need to react to what the opponent is making. Since P/Z has more viable possibilities than T, P/Z can take comfort in what they are up against. Remember, I'm not saying that this makes Terran harder on top level, but for newer players that are serious (dia/m) will have issues with these things, and tied in with most serious foreigners wanting to play macrogames, these are issues that Terran faces.
I'm reacting to you saying that terran is the race that needs to focus the most on composition. I have no interest in what is hard or not hard for this particular point. Some people think mechanics are harder, others disagree. That's not really what I want to discuss.
Of course it's easy to scout mech. I still need to have my composition countering it in order to beat it. I'm not saying that I'll ever not do it. Just saying that I have to do it.
No, if an attack comes and the terran doesn't have stim, he isn't necessarily dead at all. There are a ton of all-in attacks from the protoss that hit before the stim timing (blink all-in), and none of them are unbeatable.
Stimmed bioball vs no aoe happens basically everytime your vikings killed all the colossi and you're engaging the rest of the protoss army. Every scv pull all-in that succeeds ends with stimmed bioball vs no aoe.
The reason why I'm tech switching as protoss is because I'm reacting to your composition countering mine. Why is my reaction a "tech switch" and yours a "needed composition change"? We're doing the same thing. I'm the one to initiate the change, because I'm the one who has to adapt first.
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Thorzain beat all his competition to death with spoons.
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Sure, screw the "hardest" part then.
I thought it was obvious that I agree that if terran only makes, lets say banshees, then a regular protoss deathball will lose to it. Again, I'm assuming a standard, normal game.
There can be terran attacks before AoE as well, neither those are unbeatable. I'm talking about a standard game with standard builds, not crazyness. I addressed this in my previous post. Protoss will have out AoE for all terran attacks that aren't crazy, and Terran will have stim out against any normal protoss timing which isn't the earliest all ins (which require other "extreme" measures).
HT is AoE but yes, if all P AoE is eliminated then bio cleans up until zealots arrive, that is correct.
Protoss doesn't say "well he sure was making a lot of marines, I say we make Colossi next to counter it!" Protoss does blind tech switches all the time in the hopes of catching Terran of guard. Protoss doesn't see Terrans composition and tech switches based on that, he simply makes the other AoE. Both colossi and HT rapes everything terran has, and they require specific counters. No Terran unit require specific counters (again, assuming a standard game..) We are not doing the same thing, because Protoss simply isn't reacting to T's comp. T's comp will be the same every time, but with different ratios depending on what protoss has decided to make. Terran is reacting to P, not the other way around.
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Well I'm not going to repeat the same things over and over again. It looked from the start like a conversation in which nothing would happen, so I'm not sure why I even got past the "you're wrong about that composition thing".
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I don't even know why this is even argued here.
The general consensus is that all races have their own methods of winning the game.
Zerg is to make the correct economical decision in morphing larvae into drones and forces, you have to weigh out the risk and award.
Protoss is generally played as a mad scientists to grab the right mixture of compounds and all the suddenly put on the last ingredient needed for their ominous march of death.
Now Terran is mainly about speed, agility, and execution. You are constraint with limited choices of units to make up your army so the margin that separates the elite and only decent player is how fast you react to the banneling bombs coming into your way, how fast are you able to pick up your marines into medivac when trouble arises and how fast you can dogdge protoss' zaps and beam to minimize the damage intake. So naturally this race is one that requires prolonged time of training that the western gamers simply do not possess or should I lack the alacrity to allocate whereas, in the case of Protosses and Zerg, their entire gameplay's infrastructure isn't exactly mechanically-centered as the Terran race.
But if you dwell among the Korean with plenty of available time at hand, Terran would certainly be a viable choice of race. However, that is not to say that because of such luxury, player's decisions are automatically cemented into one. The reason for selecting the other two races are of course, based purely upon one's personality traits, their level of patience, their mindset, and their arbitrary preference.
It is still laughable to witness such high momentum for such rudimentary topic.
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On September 14 2013 13:00 crawlert wrote:
I think the reason more Koreans pick Terran compare to foreigners is because the Korean style is more cut-throat, aggressive and this style naturally favors Terran. When I play Terran I don't have trouble with stutter steps or splitting but it is knowing how to be aggressive that gave me the most trouble - knowing when to do drop, where to drop etc. Foreigners tend to be more comfortable with passive play. It is not only Starcraft the Koreans have displayed their propensity for aggressive style but also in other competitive sports e.g. football and Go. I have also played another turn-based strategy game where the Koreans play an aggressive style. I am not sure about fighting games but it would not surprise me if the Koreans favor aggressive play as well.
/thread. Look at how Korean Terrans play TvP. They ramp up the aggression and constantly do something. Stimming and kiting with a small group of units and that way they can dismantle Protoss quite well. Now look at foreigners. Lucifron, Thorzain and Kas are players who made a career out of passive play. Find a single foreign Terran who play half as aggressive as just about ANY Korean.
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EPT
