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Stop derailing this thread. This is an announcement concerning two players. If you want to talk about players who are not MajOr and LeiYa, you're in the wrong thread.
Thank you.
- Page 16 |
On November 27 2012 05:13 MasterOfPuppets wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2012 05:03 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:On November 27 2012 04:44 EchelonTee wrote:On November 27 2012 03:48 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:On November 27 2012 03:18 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On November 27 2012 03:09 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:On November 26 2012 23:44 CarlosOmse wrote:On November 26 2012 19:44 Xpace wrote:On November 26 2012 19:34 TheDraken wrote:On November 26 2012 19:25 GeNeSiDe wrote:
[quote]
I have a dick between my legs which means I can't turn up to women's sports.
I can't break the women's 100m because I'm a man and women are slower, even if I was convinced I was a woman.
Your not a woman or a man because you DECIDE; it's a permanent biological condition and plastic surgery does not address this.
So yeah, holding up Scarlett as the women's role model when she is biologically a man is abit silly no? as far as i'm concerned you're a dick entirely. no fucking point in arguing with someone who is so clearly deluded with the idea that you are what you look like. read up on kleinfelter's. read about turner's. read about SRY translocation. read about androgen insensitivity. then fucking tell us if you still think gender is as black and white as you make it out to be. you know next to nothing about either of these people and yet you just assume they're deciding what they want to be. I'm guessing there are no mods on at the moment, 'cause he'd have been warned/banned for his first post alone. It's all good if people switch genders, and it's great that TL is so accepting. But I sincerely hope that people don't overestimate, hype up, or go wild about the transgender thing. It's what happened with Scarlett - she's great, don't get me wrong, but from the very start when she was an obscure random name that beat a Korean, she was incredibly over-hyped (like when she got knocked out of the tournament I checked TL and there was already a 8 page fan club). still dont get it why they ban him fckin cencorship, he wasnt offending just telling his opinion .. i have no problem with transgenders but i still get his point, if hussein bolt would change sex and breaks all female running records is it fair/legit?? You forgot the crown rule of TL is; be nice, be safe, and avoid saying anything controversial in fear of the ban hammer as older men fear god; can be a mighty tool to avoid trolling but when freedom of expression has to be sacrificed in the name of peace and equality, how much do you value that peace and equality, knowing that it is only bestowed upon you by those who see you not as the person you are but simply a IP address and viewership number to be crushed like a bug if need be... Agreed, the fundamental point here to drive home is that pretty much any coverage of Scarlett has been on the lines of "this girl rocks the world, taking down all these men" etc etc... I'm sorry but the first thing that appeared when she joined Eclypsia was how it was awesome it was to have a successful woman pro-gamer who had a track record of sticking it to Koreans and that's how I've thought of her until now; I'm sorry but I feel so cheated having cheered her on all these times, telling people how PROUD I was that women were finally breaking through in SC and not just a side-game joke like SlayersEve vs ST-Aprodite, only to find out that the woman I was cheering on is a man in the process/who has become a woman? I'm sorry but this is a blatant manipulation of the psyche of the Starcraft community, because if Scarlett shows up BEING HER/HIS/IT's self and we don't get this "women can do it too" PR campaign there's nothing wrong, I had a girl in school who wanted to be a boy, changed her name and got the surgery as an adult, she(he) is cool now. I understand this wasn't her fault, she deserves the attention for her results and I'm sure everyone was just as confused about this, fair play. However it would be incredibly daft, unfair and problematic if either LeiYa or Scarlett are shone as the beacon of women gamers(I know LeiYa won't be as she was known as PuCK for ages now and was known as a man) when I'll go out on a limb and say that any female gamer's would not look to these two as their predecessors/idols, because at the end of the day, beyond all the 21st century, you can be who you want to be bollocks, these two WERE men, and may technically still be(I guess would make for the best kind of gay friend?) I'm going to refute my own advice and risk the banhammer by saying this; we as a community need to be very careful about idolizing/encouraging such intimate details about the lives of our stars, adding transgenders to the list of popular fringe personalities in the Starcraft community is IMO only going to keep us at the fringe of society, atleast while the community has so much dirty underwear floating around the internet(this being not the worst but maybe the oddest?). Although I understand transgender as a personal choice I think it begs the question if it is a personal issue why does it have any place being a well-known and accepted fact in the community? I don't exactly get how this "manipulation of the psyche of the Starcraft community" transpired, because if I remember correctly, Scarlett made a name for herself by playing in the IPL 4 open bracket and during the same event, if not within minutes of her video interview, someone on reddit posted claims about her being a transgender (mostly because of the adam's apple that was visible during the interview with Hot_Bid, as well as her voice seeming a bit weird) which was confirmed within hours. That's all I'm saying here, nobody was manipulated. This information has, for better or for worse, been made public from the get-go. I do agree that there's an excess of zeal in the moderation and banhammering of controversial posts on topics like transgendered people and even homosexuality, but you might want to take that one to the Website Feedback section. Well for someone like myself who has time to watch the games/read the highlights but couldn't give a rat's ass about interviews and other such stuff, this Scarlett thing went over my head until I read this post. Yeah, I'd checked her out and been like "no way"(tbh my radar was tingling when I first saw pics as well), but looking back this is the kind of stuff im referring to. Source:"Scarlett Joins Eclypsia" http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329727Excerpt: "The 18 year old Canadian only started playing a year ago and first started to make a name for herself this Autumn, winning two Iron Lady Champion Cups".Ok so just to start off, why has nobody taken those titles off her and given them to the runner ups? As recently as 04/2012 it shows her winning an "Iron Lady Leetgion" Tournament, this must have been long after she had come out the the community, still shitting on real females in an all-girl cup, cleverly lying on this screen at ESL to do it: Requirements
Current requirements:
Gender Your gender has to be the following one.
Required gender: f
Gameaccount Players must have added the following gameaccount to their account to play in this league.
Type: StarCraft II Nick#Character code (Battle.net US) (click here to add)
min. members: 1 Next up we have this: Source:http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Female_SC2_Scene Excerpt: In July, Scarlett made history, being the first woman to win a major mixed gender championship as she won the Canadian national finals for the 2012 StarCraft II World Championship. A week later, Aphrodite, too, made history being the first woman to have a broadcasted game in GOMTV's SC2 production Scarlett is the first woman to win a major tournament and the only female player to win a national finals in WCS, not to mention a continental finals.I have made my point now what say thou? She was personally allowed by the organizers of those tournaments to play in them. Iron Lady cups fully knew the situation. Scarlett has never tried to hide her gender situation; it was almost immediately known after IPL. It is not her fault that you are unaware of these events and are only now outraged. Generally, people who identify as women are referred to as "female". It is clear that you cannot accept this, and there is nothing that can really be changed about that. While it is within your rights to have your opinions on the matters and I do hope that there isn't rampant mod action, it is quite insulting and hurtful to state that some people who identify as female should not be allowed to live how they would like to, just because it offends some people's sensibilities. I'm sorry and this may sound horribly 18th Century, but I don't "identify" as a man. I was born one, confirmed by a doctor with 10 years of education and extensive experience. It's written in your passport and that's that, Male or Female, some Men may be gay or want to be women, some women may want to be men , but your still defined by which genitals you are born with. Again, if you read my post, I couldn't give a rat's ass about how Scarlett or LeiYa choose to behave as long as they won't do it around me. I'm not taking away from their basic civil rights, I care about upholding the worthiness of a title like "first woman to...." when it's NOT TRUE. Don't you get it, at the bottom of it all. I take this community seriously but to me this would be like MVP going in the record books to have won his G5L trophy because he played in an online league once called G5L and won rather than what actually supposed to happen. You know, the way an actual woman was supposed to receive this accolade. Thus this title is a false flag operation, but hell obviously no one gives a shit about the integrity of the game, we just want to be all peace and happy and cool you can be who you want to be. G Honestly dude you're making a huge deal out of something that really isn't. In the end, it was up to the admins and participants to allow her to play in the tournament and since they were okay with that it doesn't really matter what your or I think. You're free to discredit her accomplishments but please don't act as if you have the authority to dictate what others should think and do, especially for a reason as pompous and self-righteous as "the bible of sc" (lol). Also you realize that you complained about over-moderation on this delicate topic (which I don't disagree with) and then proceed to try and force your own views upon others and tell them what to think and what's good for the scene? (lol; and also it's just your opinion) A bit hypocritical if you ask me. Anyway I recommend that you take a chill pill and focus on more important issues.
That's the problem with the community, you take the outsider's view and just say "well thats wrong, thats dumb, why are you saying that" without addressing the content.
Im not trying to silence other's opinions(moderation) I am stating my viewpoint in a convincing way.
If you think calling a trans a defect is less insulting than what I posted, nice.
I'm taking this seriously because I take this game seriously, and this community seriously. Without this we would not be the people we are today, and the lenient fashion you guys are acting ignoring the fact that I have shown you 2-3 examples of lies about Scarlett's accomplishments written incorrectly in her Liquipedia page, makes me believe you jsut dont care about this game and it's legacy as much as I do. If 61* was big because there were a few more games per season, imagine Scarlett*(technically a man but they let her play womens tournaments because she has a disorder that makes her feel like a woman).
And Yes I own 2 copies of the SC Bible, have you even read it? Shall I start quoting you the quickest televised sc1 game, the longest, the best win streak? It exists already, it's not some figment of my imagination. And if the second one comes out years down the line to look back on WoL and I see Scarlett's name in it, best believe it will be a final reminder to how pathetically this community acted to preserve the honor of it's records.
**** it, I declare myself GSL champion while I'm at it.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On November 27 2012 05:28 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2012 05:13 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On November 27 2012 05:03 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:On November 27 2012 04:44 EchelonTee wrote:On November 27 2012 03:48 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:On November 27 2012 03:18 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On November 27 2012 03:09 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:On November 26 2012 23:44 CarlosOmse wrote:On November 26 2012 19:44 Xpace wrote:On November 26 2012 19:34 TheDraken wrote:
[quote]
as far as i'm concerned you're a dick entirely. no fucking point in arguing with someone who is so clearly deluded with the idea that you are what you look like. read up on kleinfelter's. read about turner's. read about SRY translocation. read about androgen insensitivity. then fucking tell us if you still think gender is as black and white as you make it out to be. you know next to nothing about either of these people and yet you just assume they're deciding what they want to be. I'm guessing there are no mods on at the moment, 'cause he'd have been warned/banned for his first post alone. It's all good if people switch genders, and it's great that TL is so accepting. But I sincerely hope that people don't overestimate, hype up, or go wild about the transgender thing. It's what happened with Scarlett - she's great, don't get me wrong, but from the very start when she was an obscure random name that beat a Korean, she was incredibly over-hyped (like when she got knocked out of the tournament I checked TL and there was already a 8 page fan club). still dont get it why they ban him fckin cencorship, he wasnt offending just telling his opinion .. i have no problem with transgenders but i still get his point, if hussein bolt would change sex and breaks all female running records is it fair/legit?? You forgot the crown rule of TL is; be nice, be safe, and avoid saying anything controversial in fear of the ban hammer as older men fear god; can be a mighty tool to avoid trolling but when freedom of expression has to be sacrificed in the name of peace and equality, how much do you value that peace and equality, knowing that it is only bestowed upon you by those who see you not as the person you are but simply a IP address and viewership number to be crushed like a bug if need be... Agreed, the fundamental point here to drive home is that pretty much any coverage of Scarlett has been on the lines of "this girl rocks the world, taking down all these men" etc etc... I'm sorry but the first thing that appeared when she joined Eclypsia was how it was awesome it was to have a successful woman pro-gamer who had a track record of sticking it to Koreans and that's how I've thought of her until now; I'm sorry but I feel so cheated having cheered her on all these times, telling people how PROUD I was that women were finally breaking through in SC and not just a side-game joke like SlayersEve vs ST-Aprodite, only to find out that the woman I was cheering on is a man in the process/who has become a woman? I'm sorry but this is a blatant manipulation of the psyche of the Starcraft community, because if Scarlett shows up BEING HER/HIS/IT's self and we don't get this "women can do it too" PR campaign there's nothing wrong, I had a girl in school who wanted to be a boy, changed her name and got the surgery as an adult, she(he) is cool now. I understand this wasn't her fault, she deserves the attention for her results and I'm sure everyone was just as confused about this, fair play. However it would be incredibly daft, unfair and problematic if either LeiYa or Scarlett are shone as the beacon of women gamers(I know LeiYa won't be as she was known as PuCK for ages now and was known as a man) when I'll go out on a limb and say that any female gamer's would not look to these two as their predecessors/idols, because at the end of the day, beyond all the 21st century, you can be who you want to be bollocks, these two WERE men, and may technically still be(I guess would make for the best kind of gay friend?) I'm going to refute my own advice and risk the banhammer by saying this; we as a community need to be very careful about idolizing/encouraging such intimate details about the lives of our stars, adding transgenders to the list of popular fringe personalities in the Starcraft community is IMO only going to keep us at the fringe of society, atleast while the community has so much dirty underwear floating around the internet(this being not the worst but maybe the oddest?). Although I understand transgender as a personal choice I think it begs the question if it is a personal issue why does it have any place being a well-known and accepted fact in the community? I don't exactly get how this "manipulation of the psyche of the Starcraft community" transpired, because if I remember correctly, Scarlett made a name for herself by playing in the IPL 4 open bracket and during the same event, if not within minutes of her video interview, someone on reddit posted claims about her being a transgender (mostly because of the adam's apple that was visible during the interview with Hot_Bid, as well as her voice seeming a bit weird) which was confirmed within hours. That's all I'm saying here, nobody was manipulated. This information has, for better or for worse, been made public from the get-go. I do agree that there's an excess of zeal in the moderation and banhammering of controversial posts on topics like transgendered people and even homosexuality, but you might want to take that one to the Website Feedback section. Well for someone like myself who has time to watch the games/read the highlights but couldn't give a rat's ass about interviews and other such stuff, this Scarlett thing went over my head until I read this post. Yeah, I'd checked her out and been like "no way"(tbh my radar was tingling when I first saw pics as well), but looking back this is the kind of stuff im referring to. Source:"Scarlett Joins Eclypsia" http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329727Excerpt: "The 18 year old Canadian only started playing a year ago and first started to make a name for herself this Autumn, winning two Iron Lady Champion Cups".Ok so just to start off, why has nobody taken those titles off her and given them to the runner ups? As recently as 04/2012 it shows her winning an "Iron Lady Leetgion" Tournament, this must have been long after she had come out the the community, still shitting on real females in an all-girl cup, cleverly lying on this screen at ESL to do it: Requirements
Current requirements:
Gender Your gender has to be the following one.
Required gender: f
Gameaccount Players must have added the following gameaccount to their account to play in this league.
Type: StarCraft II Nick#Character code (Battle.net US) (click here to add)
min. members: 1 Next up we have this: Source:http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Female_SC2_Scene Excerpt: In July, Scarlett made history, being the first woman to win a major mixed gender championship as she won the Canadian national finals for the 2012 StarCraft II World Championship. A week later, Aphrodite, too, made history being the first woman to have a broadcasted game in GOMTV's SC2 production Scarlett is the first woman to win a major tournament and the only female player to win a national finals in WCS, not to mention a continental finals.I have made my point now what say thou? She was personally allowed by the organizers of those tournaments to play in them. Iron Lady cups fully knew the situation. Scarlett has never tried to hide her gender situation; it was almost immediately known after IPL. It is not her fault that you are unaware of these events and are only now outraged. Generally, people who identify as women are referred to as "female". It is clear that you cannot accept this, and there is nothing that can really be changed about that. While it is within your rights to have your opinions on the matters and I do hope that there isn't rampant mod action, it is quite insulting and hurtful to state that some people who identify as female should not be allowed to live how they would like to, just because it offends some people's sensibilities. I'm sorry and this may sound horribly 18th Century, but I don't "identify" as a man. I was born one, confirmed by a doctor with 10 years of education and extensive experience. It's written in your passport and that's that, Male or Female, some Men may be gay or want to be women, some women may want to be men , but your still defined by which genitals you are born with. Again, if you read my post, I couldn't give a rat's ass about how Scarlett or LeiYa choose to behave as long as they won't do it around me. I'm not taking away from their basic civil rights, I care about upholding the worthiness of a title like "first woman to...." when it's NOT TRUE. Don't you get it, at the bottom of it all. I take this community seriously but to me this would be like MVP going in the record books to have won his G5L trophy because he played in an online league once called G5L and won rather than what actually supposed to happen. You know, the way an actual woman was supposed to receive this accolade. Thus this title is a false flag operation, but hell obviously no one gives a shit about the integrity of the game, we just want to be all peace and happy and cool you can be who you want to be. G Honestly dude you're making a huge deal out of something that really isn't. In the end, it was up to the admins and participants to allow her to play in the tournament and since they were okay with that it doesn't really matter what your or I think. You're free to discredit her accomplishments but please don't act as if you have the authority to dictate what others should think and do, especially for a reason as pompous and self-righteous as "the bible of sc" (lol). Also you realize that you complained about over-moderation on this delicate topic (which I don't disagree with) and then proceed to try and force your own views upon others and tell them what to think and what's good for the scene? (lol; and also it's just your opinion) A bit hypocritical if you ask me. Anyway I recommend that you take a chill pill and focus on more important issues. That's the problem with the community, you take the outsider's view and just say "well thats wrong, thats dumb, why are you saying that" without addressing the content. Im not trying to silence other's opinions(moderation) I am stating my viewpoint in a convincing way. If you think calling a trans a defect is less insulting than what I posted, nice. I'm taking this seriously because I take this game seriously, and this community seriously. Without this we would not be the people we are today, and the lenient fashion you guys are acting ignoring the fact that I have shown you 2-3 examples of lies about Scarlett's accomplishments written incorrectly in her Liquipedia page, makes me believe you jsut dont care about this game and it's legacy as much as I do. If 61* was big because there were a few more games per season, imagine Scarlett*(technically a man but they let her play womens tournaments because she has a disorder that makes her feel like a woman). And Yes I own 2 copies of the SC Bible, have you even read it? Shall I start quoting you the quickest televised sc1 game, the longest, the best win streak? It exists already, it's not some figment of my imagination. And if the second one comes out years down the line to look back on WoL and I see Scarlett's name in it, best believe it will be a final reminder to how pathetically this community acted to preserve the honor of it's records. **** it, I declare myself GSL champion while I'm at it.
Not going to argue with you but I'd like to point out that you're part of an overwhelmed minority if you truly care that much about the game and its legacy. But hey ESPORTS IS SRS BSNS what the fuck do I know? It's not enough to enjoy games played competitively in a civil manner...
Good luck with whatever you're trying to accomplish, but you might want to step off that high horse or the door frame might hit you right in the forehead on your way out.
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I hope he goes to SKT1, but he really seemed to be doing better in ROOT D: Gl to Major and LeiYa (puCK)
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Trans women have no natural advantage at SC2 over women who were born as female. The fact that more girls don't play SC2 at high level is arguably purely social, as a result of girls playing video games being frowned upon, let alone playing it a lot, very seriously and openly.
In physical sports it's a different case, but even then, hormone replacement therapy atrophies and changes the muscle mass to match that of females', although the bone structure remains the same; but even in serious sports there has been not one case where they decided in a trans woman's favor to allow her to enter women's tournaments, e.g. Renée Richards.
I'm done with the arguments.
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You hide behind civil words but again, your content spews aggression.
Your trying to get me to shut up by pointing out I am part of an "overwhelmed minority", funny, so because there's not as many like me as there are like you I don't count? I wonder what Scarlett would say about that....
High horse, there is no high horse, anything with money involved is SRS BSNS(funny how you can't be serious in that bit, seriously when you read my post is that how it sounds in your head?).
I'm actually more upset by the flippant way you view the legacy of SC than I was about the violating offence, but hey, I guess if we all just want to watch SC2, hold hands and sing koombaya until it dissapears from the history of E-Sports because we didn't try to abide by some sense of sporting integrity....
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Go Juan! I really hope he gets to join SKT, he has done nothing but mature over the past six months. Best luck going forward.
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On November 27 2012 05:42 Lynda wrote:Trans women have no natural advantage at SC2 over women who were born as female. The fact that more girls don't play SC2 at high level is arguably purely social, as a result of girls playing video games being frowned upon, let alone playing it a lot, very seriously and openly. In physical sports it's a different case, but even then, hormone replacement therapy atrophies and changes the muscle mass to match that of females', although the bone structure remains the same; but even in serious sports there has been not one case where they decided in a trans woman's favor to allow her to enter women's tournaments, e.g. Renée Richards. I'm done with the arguments.
Male chess players are still better than female chess players. And I don't think female playing chess is frowned upon. Male and female not just have physical power differences, their brains are different too, hormones too. I would still say that a trans woman has advantage over other women at SC2.
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woot Leiya.
I talk with major some times, or used to when he visited a channel I hung out in normally.
GL to you major  same for you, Leiya. I watch your stream alot and I try to take your little drop play strats.
Like Colo dropping.. for one LOL
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On November 27 2012 05:50 ZerglingTwins wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2012 05:42 Lynda wrote:Trans women have no natural advantage at SC2 over women who were born as female. The fact that more girls don't play SC2 at high level is arguably purely social, as a result of girls playing video games being frowned upon, let alone playing it a lot, very seriously and openly. In physical sports it's a different case, but even then, hormone replacement therapy atrophies and changes the muscle mass to match that of females', although the bone structure remains the same; but even in serious sports there has been not one case where they decided in a trans woman's favor to allow her to enter women's tournaments, e.g. Renée Richards. I'm done with the arguments. Male chess players are still better than female chess players. And I don't think female playing chess is frowned upon. Male and female not just have physical power differences, their brains are different too, hormones too. I would still say that a trans woman has advantage over other women at SC2.
Exactly!
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On November 27 2012 05:28 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2012 05:13 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On November 27 2012 05:03 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:On November 27 2012 04:44 EchelonTee wrote:On November 27 2012 03:48 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:On November 27 2012 03:18 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On November 27 2012 03:09 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:On November 26 2012 23:44 CarlosOmse wrote:On November 26 2012 19:44 Xpace wrote:On November 26 2012 19:34 TheDraken wrote:
[quote]
as far as i'm concerned you're a dick entirely. no fucking point in arguing with someone who is so clearly deluded with the idea that you are what you look like. read up on kleinfelter's. read about turner's. read about SRY translocation. read about androgen insensitivity. then fucking tell us if you still think gender is as black and white as you make it out to be. you know next to nothing about either of these people and yet you just assume they're deciding what they want to be. I'm guessing there are no mods on at the moment, 'cause he'd have been warned/banned for his first post alone. It's all good if people switch genders, and it's great that TL is so accepting. But I sincerely hope that people don't overestimate, hype up, or go wild about the transgender thing. It's what happened with Scarlett - she's great, don't get me wrong, but from the very start when she was an obscure random name that beat a Korean, she was incredibly over-hyped (like when she got knocked out of the tournament I checked TL and there was already a 8 page fan club). still dont get it why they ban him fckin cencorship, he wasnt offending just telling his opinion .. i have no problem with transgenders but i still get his point, if hussein bolt would change sex and breaks all female running records is it fair/legit?? You forgot the crown rule of TL is; be nice, be safe, and avoid saying anything controversial in fear of the ban hammer as older men fear god; can be a mighty tool to avoid trolling but when freedom of expression has to be sacrificed in the name of peace and equality, how much do you value that peace and equality, knowing that it is only bestowed upon you by those who see you not as the person you are but simply a IP address and viewership number to be crushed like a bug if need be... Agreed, the fundamental point here to drive home is that pretty much any coverage of Scarlett has been on the lines of "this girl rocks the world, taking down all these men" etc etc... I'm sorry but the first thing that appeared when she joined Eclypsia was how it was awesome it was to have a successful woman pro-gamer who had a track record of sticking it to Koreans and that's how I've thought of her until now; I'm sorry but I feel so cheated having cheered her on all these times, telling people how PROUD I was that women were finally breaking through in SC and not just a side-game joke like SlayersEve vs ST-Aprodite, only to find out that the woman I was cheering on is a man in the process/who has become a woman? I'm sorry but this is a blatant manipulation of the psyche of the Starcraft community, because if Scarlett shows up BEING HER/HIS/IT's self and we don't get this "women can do it too" PR campaign there's nothing wrong, I had a girl in school who wanted to be a boy, changed her name and got the surgery as an adult, she(he) is cool now. I understand this wasn't her fault, she deserves the attention for her results and I'm sure everyone was just as confused about this, fair play. However it would be incredibly daft, unfair and problematic if either LeiYa or Scarlett are shone as the beacon of women gamers(I know LeiYa won't be as she was known as PuCK for ages now and was known as a man) when I'll go out on a limb and say that any female gamer's would not look to these two as their predecessors/idols, because at the end of the day, beyond all the 21st century, you can be who you want to be bollocks, these two WERE men, and may technically still be(I guess would make for the best kind of gay friend?) I'm going to refute my own advice and risk the banhammer by saying this; we as a community need to be very careful about idolizing/encouraging such intimate details about the lives of our stars, adding transgenders to the list of popular fringe personalities in the Starcraft community is IMO only going to keep us at the fringe of society, atleast while the community has so much dirty underwear floating around the internet(this being not the worst but maybe the oddest?). Although I understand transgender as a personal choice I think it begs the question if it is a personal issue why does it have any place being a well-known and accepted fact in the community? I don't exactly get how this "manipulation of the psyche of the Starcraft community" transpired, because if I remember correctly, Scarlett made a name for herself by playing in the IPL 4 open bracket and during the same event, if not within minutes of her video interview, someone on reddit posted claims about her being a transgender (mostly because of the adam's apple that was visible during the interview with Hot_Bid, as well as her voice seeming a bit weird) which was confirmed within hours. That's all I'm saying here, nobody was manipulated. This information has, for better or for worse, been made public from the get-go. I do agree that there's an excess of zeal in the moderation and banhammering of controversial posts on topics like transgendered people and even homosexuality, but you might want to take that one to the Website Feedback section. Well for someone like myself who has time to watch the games/read the highlights but couldn't give a rat's ass about interviews and other such stuff, this Scarlett thing went over my head until I read this post. Yeah, I'd checked her out and been like "no way"(tbh my radar was tingling when I first saw pics as well), but looking back this is the kind of stuff im referring to. Source:"Scarlett Joins Eclypsia" http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329727Excerpt: "The 18 year old Canadian only started playing a year ago and first started to make a name for herself this Autumn, winning two Iron Lady Champion Cups".Ok so just to start off, why has nobody taken those titles off her and given them to the runner ups? As recently as 04/2012 it shows her winning an "Iron Lady Leetgion" Tournament, this must have been long after she had come out the the community, still shitting on real females in an all-girl cup, cleverly lying on this screen at ESL to do it: Requirements
Current requirements:
Gender Your gender has to be the following one.
Required gender: f
Gameaccount Players must have added the following gameaccount to their account to play in this league.
Type: StarCraft II Nick#Character code (Battle.net US) (click here to add)
min. members: 1 Next up we have this: Source:http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Female_SC2_Scene Excerpt: In July, Scarlett made history, being the first woman to win a major mixed gender championship as she won the Canadian national finals for the 2012 StarCraft II World Championship. A week later, Aphrodite, too, made history being the first woman to have a broadcasted game in GOMTV's SC2 production Scarlett is the first woman to win a major tournament and the only female player to win a national finals in WCS, not to mention a continental finals.I have made my point now what say thou? She was personally allowed by the organizers of those tournaments to play in them. Iron Lady cups fully knew the situation. Scarlett has never tried to hide her gender situation; it was almost immediately known after IPL. It is not her fault that you are unaware of these events and are only now outraged. Generally, people who identify as women are referred to as "female". It is clear that you cannot accept this, and there is nothing that can really be changed about that. While it is within your rights to have your opinions on the matters and I do hope that there isn't rampant mod action, it is quite insulting and hurtful to state that some people who identify as female should not be allowed to live how they would like to, just because it offends some people's sensibilities. I'm sorry and this may sound horribly 18th Century, but I don't "identify" as a man. I was born one, confirmed by a doctor with 10 years of education and extensive experience. It's written in your passport and that's that, Male or Female, some Men may be gay or want to be women, some women may want to be men , but your still defined by which genitals you are born with. Again, if you read my post, I couldn't give a rat's ass about how Scarlett or LeiYa choose to behave as long as they won't do it around me. I'm not taking away from their basic civil rights, I care about upholding the worthiness of a title like "first woman to...." when it's NOT TRUE. Don't you get it, at the bottom of it all. I take this community seriously but to me this would be like MVP going in the record books to have won his G5L trophy because he played in an online league once called G5L and won rather than what actually supposed to happen. You know, the way an actual woman was supposed to receive this accolade. Thus this title is a false flag operation, but hell obviously no one gives a shit about the integrity of the game, we just want to be all peace and happy and cool you can be who you want to be. G Honestly dude you're making a huge deal out of something that really isn't. In the end, it was up to the admins and participants to allow her to play in the tournament and since they were okay with that it doesn't really matter what your or I think. You're free to discredit her accomplishments but please don't act as if you have the authority to dictate what others should think and do, especially for a reason as pompous and self-righteous as "the bible of sc" (lol). Also you realize that you complained about over-moderation on this delicate topic (which I don't disagree with) and then proceed to try and force your own views upon others and tell them what to think and what's good for the scene? (lol; and also it's just your opinion) A bit hypocritical if you ask me. Anyway I recommend that you take a chill pill and focus on more important issues. That's the problem with the community, you take the outsider's view and just say "well thats wrong, thats dumb, why are you saying that" without addressing the content. Im not trying to silence other's opinions(moderation) I am stating my viewpoint in a convincing way. If you think calling a trans a defect is less insulting than what I posted, nice. I'm taking this seriously because I take this game seriously, and this community seriously. Without this we would not be the people we are today, and the lenient fashion you guys are acting ignoring the fact that I have shown you 2-3 examples of lies about Scarlett's accomplishments written incorrectly in her Liquipedia page, makes me believe you jsut dont care about this game and it's legacy as much as I do. If 61* was big because there were a few more games per season, imagine Scarlett*(technically a man but they let her play womens tournaments because she has a disorder that makes her feel like a woman). And Yes I own 2 copies of the SC Bible, have you even read it? Shall I start quoting you the quickest televised sc1 game, the longest, the best win streak? It exists already, it's not some figment of my imagination. And if the second one comes out years down the line to look back on WoL and I see Scarlett's name in it, best believe it will be a final reminder to how pathetically this community acted to preserve the honor of it's records. **** it, I declare myself GSL champion while I'm at it.
i didn't know scarlett was actually a man untill I read her messages on stardusts twitch chat. clearly it's proof that men and women shouldn't be aloud to play games together because they don't type the same and clearly don't use the computer the same way. all gays/transvestites should be banned from esports forever NO EXCEPTIONS
I hope you understand that what you're saying although true is ridiculous and you should focus on why you are giving israel 30 billion a year to bomb children and trying to stop that with the same passion, not if transvestites are beating BAD players in starcraft 2 tournaments that will never really matter,with the exception of wcs canada ..
EDIT: This isn`t a serious post. jesus christ
except for this part : you should focus on why you are giving israel 30 billion a year to bomb children and trying to stop that with the same passion,
User was warned for this post
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On November 27 2012 05:50 ZerglingTwins wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2012 05:42 Lynda wrote:Trans women have no natural advantage at SC2 over women who were born as female. The fact that more girls don't play SC2 at high level is arguably purely social, as a result of girls playing video games being frowned upon, let alone playing it a lot, very seriously and openly. In physical sports it's a different case, but even then, hormone replacement therapy atrophies and changes the muscle mass to match that of females', although the bone structure remains the same; but even in serious sports there has been not one case where they decided in a trans woman's favor to allow her to enter women's tournaments, e.g. Renée Richards. I'm done with the arguments. Male chess players are still better than female chess players.
It's kind of a silly debate, but I can't help but get sucked in. ZerglingTwins is right here. It's really not a coincidence that Scarlett is 10x better than all the other girls playing SC2. I have no problem with Scarlett at all.. but I don't think she should be claiming prizes in IronLady, etc.
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On November 27 2012 05:50 ZerglingTwins wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2012 05:42 Lynda wrote:Trans women have no natural advantage at SC2 over women who were born as female. The fact that more girls don't play SC2 at high level is arguably purely social, as a result of girls playing video games being frowned upon, let alone playing it a lot, very seriously and openly. In physical sports it's a different case, but even then, hormone replacement therapy atrophies and changes the muscle mass to match that of females', although the bone structure remains the same; but even in serious sports there has been not one case where they decided in a trans woman's favor to allow her to enter women's tournaments, e.g. Renée Richards. I'm done with the arguments. Male chess players are still better than female chess players. And I don't think female playing chess is frowned upon. Male and female not just have physical power differences, their brains are different too, hormones too. I would still say that a trans woman has advantage over other women at SC2.
How many females vs males pursue chess? How long have males had an established tradition of pursuing chess vs females?
Does the fact that the vast majority of the worlds' political leadership being male 'prove' that male brains are better designed for political leadership?
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On November 27 2012 06:00 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2012 05:50 ZerglingTwins wrote:On November 27 2012 05:42 Lynda wrote:Trans women have no natural advantage at SC2 over women who were born as female. The fact that more girls don't play SC2 at high level is arguably purely social, as a result of girls playing video games being frowned upon, let alone playing it a lot, very seriously and openly. In physical sports it's a different case, but even then, hormone replacement therapy atrophies and changes the muscle mass to match that of females', although the bone structure remains the same; but even in serious sports there has been not one case where they decided in a trans woman's favor to allow her to enter women's tournaments, e.g. Renée Richards. I'm done with the arguments. Male chess players are still better than female chess players. And I don't think female playing chess is frowned upon. Male and female not just have physical power differences, their brains are different too, hormones too. I would still say that a trans woman has advantage over other women at SC2. How many females vs males pursue chess? How long have males had an established tradition of pursuing chess vs females? Does the fact that the vast majority of the worlds' political leadership being male 'prove' that male brains are better designed for political leadership?
Politics is not a competitive sport.
Women have been some of the greatest political leaders of all time.
Yes gender bias exists in SC2 & Chess. But I don't think it's the core reason you don't see Magnus Carlsen getting whooped by women.
Gender has a social component, which is a rather nouveau mindet, that I'm totally down with. But it also has a rather simple biological concept.
Having a particular genitalia does force specific biochemistry on you, and certain biochemistry does correspond to certain things. The effects of testosterone on one's competitive mentality have long been understood...
+ Show Spoiler +
I mean.. people get yanked from the olympics and competitive sporting events all the time for this sort of thing. Of course.. it's rather ludicrous in SC, but whatever.
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Gender is a social thing, not a biological thing. Having particular genitalia does not force a gender on you. Saying that someone has to identify as male based on their physical features on birth is exactly the kind of oppression that makes the lives of transgender people so difficult.
There being more male chess champions is a social thing.
Dear god this thread is bad.
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edit -- removing my post because it's detracting from the OP.
Good on Major and Puck. ^_^
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United States261 Posts
Let's just stop with the derail. Go make another thread about it if it is that much of a concern.
Good on major if he does get into a kespa team. And I'm glad LeiYa is back and hopefully she has the support she needs to be a more successful player.
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On November 27 2012 06:00 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2012 05:50 ZerglingTwins wrote:On November 27 2012 05:42 Lynda wrote:Trans women have no natural advantage at SC2 over women who were born as female. The fact that more girls don't play SC2 at high level is arguably purely social, as a result of girls playing video games being frowned upon, let alone playing it a lot, very seriously and openly. In physical sports it's a different case, but even then, hormone replacement therapy atrophies and changes the muscle mass to match that of females', although the bone structure remains the same; but even in serious sports there has been not one case where they decided in a trans woman's favor to allow her to enter women's tournaments, e.g. Renée Richards. I'm done with the arguments. Male chess players are still better than female chess players. And I don't think female playing chess is frowned upon. Male and female not just have physical power differences, their brains are different too, hormones too. I would still say that a trans woman has advantage over other women at SC2. How many females vs males pursue chess? How long have males had an established tradition of pursuing chess vs females? Does the fact that the vast majority of the worlds' political leadership being male 'prove' that male brains are better designed for political leadership?
The reason why there are fewer female chess players, is still a brain and hormone issue, they are not that interested in it, and not inspired by it. Differences are still on brain and hormone. When women win or lose a game, they don't feel that much thrill and disappointment as men do. So they don't have that much motivation in games generally.
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Because the brain is entirely figured out, and everything said in every scientific research paper ever published is true on it's own merit. Yeah, this debate sure is silly.
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Help me understand this situation, because frankly I have no idea what's happening around here and the terms being thrown around go way over my head.
So first the easy question : When people say puck revealed his true gender, do they mean he switched to female or was he a female that transgendered to male and is going back to his true gender, so to speak ? I didn't really understood what the deal with him was.
Secondly, I recently understood Scarlett was a man, which was surprising because I assumed the internet was providing some more wind for the hate windmill, like it always does when it sees women achieving results.
Now I don't know what the situation exactly is with her, but people are getting distracted by stupid assumptions.
There is nothing that makes men better at gaming than women, the only thing holding them back are social shackles, so to speak.
For example, people bring up the chess example. Remember those chess champions got educated playing chess since their youngest age, that's what makes them so good. But parents assume chess is going to be played by boys, just like videogames are played by boys and they'd rather try to teach their girls something like knitting ( bad example, can't come up with another one atm) because they assume it will fit their girl/boy better, just because that's what EVERYONE is doing , aka the socially acceptable thing to do. ( it's a bit of an extreme explanation )
Someone actually did the test once in russia, can't remember the girl's name exactly, but her father, a good chess player, educated his daughter like he wanted to turn her into a chess champion,like what happened with most of the reigning champions. And she grew up like those champions and became obscenely good at the game. She was beating men with more experience, older ones, overall being a very very good chess player. But then again, after some time people refused to compete against her anymore because she was a woman. ( see : stereotype ) and they had (in their narrow socially acceptable view ) nothing to win and everything to lose by playing vs her. No competition eventually discourages her and tones down her skills a bit.
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On November 27 2012 06:18 NumberFive wrote:
Help me understand this situation, because frankly I have no idea what's happening around here and the terms being thrown around go way over my head.
So first the easy question : When people say puck revealed his true gender, do they mean he switched to female or was he a female that transgendered to male and is going back to his true gender, so to speak ? I didn't really understood what the deal with him was.
Secondly, I recently understood Scarlett was a man, which was surprising because I assumed the internet was providing some more wind for the hate windmill, like it always does when it sees women achieving results.
Now I don't know what the situation exactly is with her, but people are getting distracted by stupid assumptions.
There is nothing that makes men better at gaming than women, the only thing holding them back are social shackles, so to speak.
For example, people bring up the chess example. Remember those chess champions got educated playing chess since their youngest age, that's what makes them so good. But parents assume chess is going to be played by boys, just like videogames are played by boys and they'd rather try to teach their girls something like knitting ( bad example, can't come up with another one atm) because they assume it will fit their girl/boy better, just because that's what EVERYONE is doing , aka the socially acceptable thing to do. ( it's a bit of an extreme explanation )
Someone actually did the test once in russia, can't remember the girl's name exactly, but her father, a good chess player, educated his daughter like he wanted to turn her into a chess champion,like what happened with most of the reigning champions. And she grew up like those champions and became obscenely good at the game. She was beating men with more experience, older ones, overall being a very very good chess player. But then again, after some time people refused to compete against her anymore because she was a woman. ( see : stereotype ) and they had (in their narrow socially acceptable view ) nothing to win and everything to lose by playing vs her. No competition eventually discourages her and tones down her skills a bit.
puCK aka now LeiYa is MtF so she's likely going to (or has possibly already begun) medically/physically transitioning from male to female, but in either case she's already made the social transition, she's already referred to by female pronouns and terms by accepting people.
Scarlett is also MtF and she came out on reddit after her first appearance at IPL4.
That "experiment" was also done in Hungary; the Polgár sisters (in particular Judit Polgár) have been among the top female chess players due to being raised from an early age basically as if they were male, teaching them chess.
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EPT
