Stop derailing this thread. This is an announcement concerning two players. If you want to talk about players who are not MajOr and LeiYa, you're in the wrong thread.
On November 26 2012 19:08 GeNeSiDe wrote: Wow wait so puck is a dude who wants to be a chick, went away to switch gender surgery? Really looked like a guy wtf
And Scarlett is actually a dude too? Why is it marked as "the most successful female sc2" when there's a penis hanging between her/his/it's legs.
Jesus
I mean it's not fair to real girls that some husky voiced tranny is taking their crown, in fact it's worse because it further pushes women out if the only competitive "chicks" used to be guys/still are but won't admit it
-.- seriously?
I have a dick between my legs which means I can't turn up to women's sports. I can't break the women's 100m because I'm a man and women are slower, even if I was convinced I was a woman. Your not a woman or a man because you DECIDE; it's a permanent biological condition and plastic surgery does not address this. So yeah, holding up Scarlett as the women's role model when she is biologically a man is abit silly no?
as far as i'm concerned you're a dick entirely. no fucking point in arguing with someone who is so clearly deluded with the idea that you are what you look like. read up on kleinfelter's. read about turner's. read about SRY translocation. read about androgen insensitivity. then fucking tell us if you still think gender is as black and white as you make it out to be. you know next to nothing about either of these people and yet you just assume they're deciding what they want to be.
I'm guessing there are no mods on at the moment, 'cause he'd have been warned/banned for his first post alone.
It's all good if people switch genders, and it's great that TL is so accepting. But I sincerely hope that people don't overestimate, hype up, or go wild about the transgender thing. It's what happened with Scarlett - she's great, don't get me wrong, but from the very start when she was an obscure random name that beat a Korean, she was incredibly over-hyped (like when she got knocked out of the tournament I checked TL and there was already a 8 page fan club).
still dont get it why they ban him fckin cencorship, he wasnt offending just telling his opinion .. i have no problem with transgenders but i still get his point, if hussein bolt would change sex and breaks all female running records is it fair/legit??
You forgot the crown rule of TL is; be nice, be safe, and avoid saying anything controversial in fear of the ban hammer as older men fear god; can be a mighty tool to avoid trolling but when freedom of expression has to be sacrificed in the name of peace and equality, how much do you value that peace and equality, knowing that it is only bestowed upon you by those who see you not as the person you are but simply a IP address and viewership number to be crushed like a bug if need be...
Agreed, the fundamental point here to drive home is that pretty much any coverage of Scarlett has been on the lines of "this girl rocks the world, taking down all these men" etc etc...
I'm sorry but the first thing that appeared when she joined Eclypsia was how it was awesome it was to have a successful woman pro-gamer who had a track record of sticking it to Koreans and that's how I've thought of her until now; I'm sorry but I feel so cheated having cheered her on all these times, telling people how PROUD I was that women were finally breaking through in SC and not just a side-game joke like SlayersEve vs ST-Aprodite, only to find out that the woman I was cheering on is a man in the process/who has become a woman?
I'm sorry but this is a blatant manipulation of the psyche of the Starcraft community, because if Scarlett shows up BEING HER/HIS/IT's self and we don't get this "women can do it too" PR campaign there's nothing wrong, I had a girl in school who wanted to be a boy, changed her name and got the surgery as an adult, she(he) is cool now. I understand this wasn't her fault, she deserves the attention for her results and I'm sure everyone was just as confused about this, fair play. However it would be incredibly daft, unfair and problematic if either LeiYa or Scarlett are shone as the beacon of women gamers(I know LeiYa won't be as she was known as PuCK for ages now and was known as a man) when I'll go out on a limb and say that any female gamer's would not look to these two as their predecessors/idols, because at the end of the day, beyond all the 21st century, you can be who you want to be bollocks, these two WERE men, and may technically still be(I guess would make for the best kind of gay friend?)
I'm going to refute my own advice and risk the banhammer by saying this; we as a community need to be very careful about idolizing/encouraging such intimate details about the lives of our stars, adding transgenders to the list of popular fringe personalities in the Starcraft community is IMO only going to keep us at the fringe of society, atleast while the community has so much dirty underwear floating around the internet(this being not the worst but maybe the oddest?). Although I understand transgender as a personal choice I think it begs the question if it is a personal issue why does it have any place being a well-known and accepted fact in the community?
I don't exactly get how this "manipulation of the psyche of the Starcraft community" transpired, because if I remember correctly, Scarlett made a name for herself by playing in the IPL 4 open bracket and during the same event, if not within minutes of her video interview, someone on reddit posted claims about her being a transgender (mostly because of the adam's apple that was visible during the interview with Hot_Bid, as well as her voice seeming a bit weird) which was confirmed within hours.
That's all I'm saying here, nobody was manipulated. This information has, for better or for worse, been made public from the get-go.
I do agree that there's an excess of zeal in the moderation and banhammering of controversial posts on topics like transgendered people and even homosexuality, but you might want to take that one to the Website Feedback section.
On November 26 2012 19:08 GeNeSiDe wrote: Wow wait so puck is a dude who wants to be a chick, went away to switch gender surgery? Really looked like a guy wtf
And Scarlett is actually a dude too? Why is it marked as "the most successful female sc2" when there's a penis hanging between her/his/it's legs.
Jesus
I mean it's not fair to real girls that some husky voiced tranny is taking their crown, in fact it's worse because it further pushes women out if the only competitive "chicks" used to be guys/still are but won't admit it
-.- seriously?
I have a dick between my legs which means I can't turn up to women's sports. I can't break the women's 100m because I'm a man and women are slower, even if I was convinced I was a woman. Your not a woman or a man because you DECIDE; it's a permanent biological condition and plastic surgery does not address this. So yeah, holding up Scarlett as the women's role model when she is biologically a man is abit silly no?
as far as i'm concerned you're a dick entirely. no fucking point in arguing with someone who is so clearly deluded with the idea that you are what you look like. read up on kleinfelter's. read about turner's. read about SRY translocation. read about androgen insensitivity. then fucking tell us if you still think gender is as black and white as you make it out to be. you know next to nothing about either of these people and yet you just assume they're deciding what they want to be.
I'm guessing there are no mods on at the moment, 'cause he'd have been warned/banned for his first post alone.
It's all good if people switch genders, and it's great that TL is so accepting. But I sincerely hope that people don't overestimate, hype up, or go wild about the transgender thing. It's what happened with Scarlett - she's great, don't get me wrong, but from the very start when she was an obscure random name that beat a Korean, she was incredibly over-hyped (like when she got knocked out of the tournament I checked TL and there was already a 8 page fan club).
still dont get it why they ban him fckin cencorship, he wasnt offending just telling his opinion .. i have no problem with transgenders but i still get his point, if hussein bolt would change sex and breaks all female running records is it fair/legit??
You forgot the crown rule of TL is; be nice, be safe, and avoid saying anything controversial in fear of the ban hammer as older men fear god; can be a mighty tool to avoid trolling but when freedom of expression has to be sacrificed in the name of peace and equality, how much do you value that peace and equality, knowing that it is only bestowed upon you by those who see you not as the person you are but simply a IP address and viewership number to be crushed like a bug if need be...
Agreed, the fundamental point here to drive home is that pretty much any coverage of Scarlett has been on the lines of "this girl rocks the world, taking down all these men" etc etc...
I'm sorry but the first thing that appeared when she joined Eclypsia was how it was awesome it was to have a successful woman pro-gamer who had a track record of sticking it to Koreans and that's how I've thought of her until now; I'm sorry but I feel so cheated having cheered her on all these times, telling people how PROUD I was that women were finally breaking through in SC and not just a side-game joke like SlayersEve vs ST-Aprodite, only to find out that the woman I was cheering on is a man in the process/who has become a woman?
I'm sorry but this is a blatant manipulation of the psyche of the Starcraft community, because if Scarlett shows up BEING HER/HIS/IT's self and we don't get this "women can do it too" PR campaign there's nothing wrong, I had a girl in school who wanted to be a boy, changed her name and got the surgery as an adult, she(he) is cool now. I understand this wasn't her fault, she deserves the attention for her results and I'm sure everyone was just as confused about this, fair play. However it would be incredibly daft, unfair and problematic if either LeiYa or Scarlett are shone as the beacon of women gamers(I know LeiYa won't be as she was known as PuCK for ages now and was known as a man) when I'll go out on a limb and say that any female gamer's would not look to these two as their predecessors/idols, because at the end of the day, beyond all the 21st century, you can be who you want to be bollocks, these two WERE men, and may technically still be(I guess would make for the best kind of gay friend?)
I'm going to refute my own advice and risk the banhammer by saying this; we as a community need to be very careful about idolizing/encouraging such intimate details about the lives of our stars, adding transgenders to the list of popular fringe personalities in the Starcraft community is IMO only going to keep us at the fringe of society, atleast while the community has so much dirty underwear floating around the internet(this being not the worst but maybe the oddest?). Allthough I understand transgender as a personal choice I think it begs the question if it is a personal issue why does it have any place being a well-known and accepted fact in the community?
Being transgender isn't a personal choice, it's neuroanatomically hardwired, and transitioning is unfortunately the most public private thing one can do. Trans women weren't men, they are women; they just were/still are more or less male and have been forced against their will to live as such; there's a huge difference between gender and sex. Gender also has got nothing to do with sexual orientation, trans women can still be lesbian/bi/asexual. And Scarlett did come out on reddit right after IPL4 that she's transgender.
And so you say that just because being trans is generally viewed very negatively and horrendously misinformedly by society, you'd rather take away trans people's rights to compete at high levels not to give a "bad reputation" to the community? Seriously? Plus if anything, the community accepting trans people gives the community a better reputation, and it also spreads more awareness that being trans is in fact a normal thing, it's not some mental insanity / sexual deviance.
And the fact that more girls don't play SC2 at high level is purely social, as a result of girls playing video games being frowned upon, let alone playing it a lot, very seriously and openly.
On November 26 2012 19:08 GeNeSiDe wrote: Wow wait so puck is a dude who wants to be a chick, went away to switch gender surgery? Really looked like a guy wtf
And Scarlett is actually a dude too? Why is it marked as "the most successful female sc2" when there's a penis hanging between her/his/it's legs.
Jesus
I mean it's not fair to real girls that some husky voiced tranny is taking their crown, in fact it's worse because it further pushes women out if the only competitive "chicks" used to be guys/still are but won't admit it
-.- seriously?
I have a dick between my legs which means I can't turn up to women's sports. I can't break the women's 100m because I'm a man and women are slower, even if I was convinced I was a woman. Your not a woman or a man because you DECIDE; it's a permanent biological condition and plastic surgery does not address this. So yeah, holding up Scarlett as the women's role model when she is biologically a man is abit silly no?
as far as i'm concerned you're a dick entirely. no fucking point in arguing with someone who is so clearly deluded with the idea that you are what you look like. read up on kleinfelter's. read about turner's. read about SRY translocation. read about androgen insensitivity. then fucking tell us if you still think gender is as black and white as you make it out to be. you know next to nothing about either of these people and yet you just assume they're deciding what they want to be.
I'm guessing there are no mods on at the moment, 'cause he'd have been warned/banned for his first post alone.
It's all good if people switch genders, and it's great that TL is so accepting. But I sincerely hope that people don't overestimate, hype up, or go wild about the transgender thing. It's what happened with Scarlett - she's great, don't get me wrong, but from the very start when she was an obscure random name that beat a Korean, she was incredibly over-hyped (like when she got knocked out of the tournament I checked TL and there was already a 8 page fan club).
still dont get it why they ban him fckin cencorship, he wasnt offending just telling his opinion .. i have no problem with transgenders but i still get his point, if hussein bolt would change sex and breaks all female running records is it fair/legit??
You forgot the crown rule of TL is; be nice, be safe, and avoid saying anything controversial in fear of the ban hammer as older men fear god; can be a mighty tool to avoid trolling but when freedom of expression has to be sacrificed in the name of peace and equality, how much do you value that peace and equality, knowing that it is only bestowed upon you by those who see you not as the person you are but simply a IP address and viewership number to be crushed like a bug if need be...
Agreed, the fundamental point here to drive home is that pretty much any coverage of Scarlett has been on the lines of "this girl rocks the world, taking down all these men" etc etc...
I'm sorry but the first thing that appeared when she joined Eclypsia was how it was awesome it was to have a successful woman pro-gamer who had a track record of sticking it to Koreans and that's how I've thought of her until now; I'm sorry but I feel so cheated having cheered her on all these times, telling people how PROUD I was that women were finally breaking through in SC and not just a side-game joke like SlayersEve vs ST-Aprodite, only to find out that the woman I was cheering on is a man in the process/who has become a woman?
I'm sorry but this is a blatant manipulation of the psyche of the Starcraft community, because if Scarlett shows up BEING HER/HIS/IT's self and we don't get this "women can do it too" PR campaign there's nothing wrong, I had a girl in school who wanted to be a boy, changed her name and got the surgery as an adult, she(he) is cool now. I understand this wasn't her fault, she deserves the attention for her results and I'm sure everyone was just as confused about this, fair play. However it would be incredibly daft, unfair and problematic if either LeiYa or Scarlett are shone as the beacon of women gamers(I know LeiYa won't be as she was known as PuCK for ages now and was known as a man) when I'll go out on a limb and say that any female gamer's would not look to these two as their predecessors/idols, because at the end of the day, beyond all the 21st century, you can be who you want to be bollocks, these two WERE men, and may technically still be(I guess would make for the best kind of gay friend?)
I'm going to refute my own advice and risk the banhammer by saying this; we as a community need to be very careful about idolizing/encouraging such intimate details about the lives of our stars, adding transgenders to the list of popular fringe personalities in the Starcraft community is IMO only going to keep us at the fringe of society, atleast while the community has so much dirty underwear floating around the internet(this being not the worst but maybe the oddest?). Although I understand transgender as a personal choice I think it begs the question if it is a personal issue why does it have any place being a well-known and accepted fact in the community?
I don't exactly get how this "manipulation of the psyche of the Starcraft community" transpired, because if I remember correctly, Scarlett made a name for herself by playing in the IPL 4 open bracket and during the same event, if not within minutes of her video interview, someone on reddit posted claims about her being a transgender (mostly because of the adam's apple that was visible during the interview with Hot_Bid, as well as her voice seeming a bit weird) which was confirmed within hours.
That's all I'm saying here, nobody was manipulated. This information has, for better or for worse, been made public from the get-go.
I do agree that there's an excess of zeal in the moderation and banhammering of controversial posts on topics like transgendered people and even homosexuality, but you might want to take that one to the Website Feedback section.
Well for someone like myself who has time to watch the games/read the highlights but couldn't give a rat's ass about interviews and other such stuff, this Scarlett thing went over my head until I read this post. Yeah, I'd checked her out and been like "no way"(tbh my radar was tingling when I first saw pics as well), but looking back this is the kind of stuff im referring to.
Source:"Scarlett Joins Eclypsia" http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329727 Excerpt: "The 18 year old Canadian only started playing a year ago and first started to make a name for herself this Autumn, winning two Iron Lady Champion Cups".
Ok so just to start off, why has nobody taken those titles off her and given them to the runner ups? As recently as 04/2012 it shows her winning an "Iron Lady Leetgion" Tournament, this must have been long after she had come out the the community, still shitting on real females in an all-girl cup, cleverly lying on this screen at ESL to do it:
Requirements
Current requirements: Gender Your gender has to be the following one.
Required gender: f Gameaccount Players must have added the following gameaccount to their account to play in this league.
Type: StarCraft II Nick#Character code (Battle.net US) (click here to add) min. members: 1
Next up we have this:
Source:http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Female_SC2_Scene Excerpt: In July, Scarlett made history, being the first woman to win a major mixed gender championship as she won the Canadian national finals for the 2012 StarCraft II World Championship. A week later, Aphrodite, too, made history being the first woman to have a broadcasted game in GOMTV's SC2 production
Scarlett is the first woman to win a major tournament and the only female player to win a national finals in WCS, not to mention a continental finals.
On November 26 2012 19:08 GeNeSiDe wrote: Wow wait so puck is a dude who wants to be a chick, went away to switch gender surgery? Really looked like a guy wtf
And Scarlett is actually a dude too? Why is it marked as "the most successful female sc2" when there's a penis hanging between her/his/it's legs.
Jesus
I mean it's not fair to real girls that some husky voiced tranny is taking their crown, in fact it's worse because it further pushes women out if the only competitive "chicks" used to be guys/still are but won't admit it
-.- seriously?
I have a dick between my legs which means I can't turn up to women's sports. I can't break the women's 100m because I'm a man and women are slower, even if I was convinced I was a woman. Your not a woman or a man because you DECIDE; it's a permanent biological condition and plastic surgery does not address this. So yeah, holding up Scarlett as the women's role model when she is biologically a man is abit silly no?
as far as i'm concerned you're a dick entirely. no fucking point in arguing with someone who is so clearly deluded with the idea that you are what you look like. read up on kleinfelter's. read about turner's. read about SRY translocation. read about androgen insensitivity. then fucking tell us if you still think gender is as black and white as you make it out to be. you know next to nothing about either of these people and yet you just assume they're deciding what they want to be.
I'm guessing there are no mods on at the moment, 'cause he'd have been warned/banned for his first post alone.
It's all good if people switch genders, and it's great that TL is so accepting. But I sincerely hope that people don't overestimate, hype up, or go wild about the transgender thing. It's what happened with Scarlett - she's great, don't get me wrong, but from the very start when she was an obscure random name that beat a Korean, she was incredibly over-hyped (like when she got knocked out of the tournament I checked TL and there was already a 8 page fan club).
still dont get it why they ban him fckin cencorship, he wasnt offending just telling his opinion .. i have no problem with transgenders but i still get his point, if hussein bolt would change sex and breaks all female running records is it fair/legit??
You forgot the crown rule of TL is; be nice, be safe, and avoid saying anything controversial in fear of the ban hammer as older men fear god; can be a mighty tool to avoid trolling but when freedom of expression has to be sacrificed in the name of peace and equality, how much do you value that peace and equality, knowing that it is only bestowed upon you by those who see you not as the person you are but simply a IP address and viewership number to be crushed like a bug if need be...
Agreed, the fundamental point here to drive home is that pretty much any coverage of Scarlett has been on the lines of "this girl rocks the world, taking down all these men" etc etc...
I'm sorry but the first thing that appeared when she joined Eclypsia was how it was awesome it was to have a successful woman pro-gamer who had a track record of sticking it to Koreans and that's how I've thought of her until now; I'm sorry but I feel so cheated having cheered her on all these times, telling people how PROUD I was that women were finally breaking through in SC and not just a side-game joke like SlayersEve vs ST-Aprodite, only to find out that the woman I was cheering on is a man in the process/who has become a woman?
I'm sorry but this is a blatant manipulation of the psyche of the Starcraft community, because if Scarlett shows up BEING HER/HIS/IT's self and we don't get this "women can do it too" PR campaign there's nothing wrong, I had a girl in school who wanted to be a boy, changed her name and got the surgery as an adult, she(he) is cool now. I understand this wasn't her fault, she deserves the attention for her results and I'm sure everyone was just as confused about this, fair play. However it would be incredibly daft, unfair and problematic if either LeiYa or Scarlett are shone as the beacon of women gamers(I know LeiYa won't be as she was known as PuCK for ages now and was known as a man) when I'll go out on a limb and say that any female gamer's would not look to these two as their predecessors/idols, because at the end of the day, beyond all the 21st century, you can be who you want to be bollocks, these two WERE men, and may technically still be(I guess would make for the best kind of gay friend?)
I'm going to refute my own advice and risk the banhammer by saying this; we as a community need to be very careful about idolizing/encouraging such intimate details about the lives of our stars, adding transgenders to the list of popular fringe personalities in the Starcraft community is IMO only going to keep us at the fringe of society, atleast while the community has so much dirty underwear floating around the internet(this being not the worst but maybe the oddest?). Allthough I understand transgender as a personal choice I think it begs the question if it is a personal issue why does it have any place being a well-known and accepted fact in the community?
Being transgender isn't a personal choice, it's neuroanatomically hardwired, and transitioning is unfortunately the most public private thing one can do. Trans women weren't men, they are women; they just were/still are more or less male and have been forced against their will to live as such; there's a huge difference between gender and sex. Gender also has got nothing to do with sexual orientation, trans women can still be lesbian/bi/asexual. And Scarlett did come out on reddit right after IPL4 that she's transgender.
And so you say that just because being trans is generally viewed very negatively and horrendously misinformedly by society, you'd rather take away trans people's rights to compete at high levels not to give a "bad reputation" to the community? Seriously? Plus if anything, the community accepting trans people gives the community a better reputation, and it also spreads more awareness that being trans is in fact a normal thing, it's not some mental insanity / sexual deviance.
And the fact that more girls don't play SC2 at high level is purely social, as a result of girls playing video games being frowned upon, let alone playing it a lot, very seriously and openly.
I never said don't let her compete, I SAID IF YOU READ MY POSTS.
Do not let her receive woman's awards/play in women's tournaments/be haralded as the coming of eve in SC2
On November 26 2012 19:08 GeNeSiDe wrote: Wow wait so puck is a dude who wants to be a chick, went away to switch gender surgery? Really looked like a guy wtf
And Scarlett is actually a dude too? Why is it marked as "the most successful female sc2" when there's a penis hanging between her/his/it's legs.
Jesus
I mean it's not fair to real girls that some husky voiced tranny is taking their crown, in fact it's worse because it further pushes women out if the only competitive "chicks" used to be guys/still are but won't admit it
-.- seriously?
I have a dick between my legs which means I can't turn up to women's sports. I can't break the women's 100m because I'm a man and women are slower, even if I was convinced I was a woman. Your not a woman or a man because you DECIDE; it's a permanent biological condition and plastic surgery does not address this. So yeah, holding up Scarlett as the women's role model when she is biologically a man is abit silly no?
as far as i'm concerned you're a dick entirely. no fucking point in arguing with someone who is so clearly deluded with the idea that you are what you look like. read up on kleinfelter's. read about turner's. read about SRY translocation. read about androgen insensitivity. then fucking tell us if you still think gender is as black and white as you make it out to be. you know next to nothing about either of these people and yet you just assume they're deciding what they want to be.
I'm guessing there are no mods on at the moment, 'cause he'd have been warned/banned for his first post alone.
It's all good if people switch genders, and it's great that TL is so accepting. But I sincerely hope that people don't overestimate, hype up, or go wild about the transgender thing. It's what happened with Scarlett - she's great, don't get me wrong, but from the very start when she was an obscure random name that beat a Korean, she was incredibly over-hyped (like when she got knocked out of the tournament I checked TL and there was already a 8 page fan club).
still dont get it why they ban him fckin cencorship, he wasnt offending just telling his opinion .. i have no problem with transgenders but i still get his point, if hussein bolt would change sex and breaks all female running records is it fair/legit??
You forgot the crown rule of TL is; be nice, be safe, and avoid saying anything controversial in fear of the ban hammer as older men fear god; can be a mighty tool to avoid trolling but when freedom of expression has to be sacrificed in the name of peace and equality, how much do you value that peace and equality, knowing that it is only bestowed upon you by those who see you not as the person you are but simply a IP address and viewership number to be crushed like a bug if need be...
Agreed, the fundamental point here to drive home is that pretty much any coverage of Scarlett has been on the lines of "this girl rocks the world, taking down all these men" etc etc...
I'm sorry but the first thing that appeared when she joined Eclypsia was how it was awesome it was to have a successful woman pro-gamer who had a track record of sticking it to Koreans and that's how I've thought of her until now; I'm sorry but I feel so cheated having cheered her on all these times, telling people how PROUD I was that women were finally breaking through in SC and not just a side-game joke like SlayersEve vs ST-Aprodite, only to find out that the woman I was cheering on is a man in the process/who has become a woman?
I'm sorry but this is a blatant manipulation of the psyche of the Starcraft community, because if Scarlett shows up BEING HER/HIS/IT's self and we don't get this "women can do it too" PR campaign there's nothing wrong, I had a girl in school who wanted to be a boy, changed her name and got the surgery as an adult, she(he) is cool now. I understand this wasn't her fault, she deserves the attention for her results and I'm sure everyone was just as confused about this, fair play. However it would be incredibly daft, unfair and problematic if either LeiYa or Scarlett are shone as the beacon of women gamers(I know LeiYa won't be as she was known as PuCK for ages now and was known as a man) when I'll go out on a limb and say that any female gamer's would not look to these two as their predecessors/idols, because at the end of the day, beyond all the 21st century, you can be who you want to be bollocks, these two WERE men, and may technically still be(I guess would make for the best kind of gay friend?)
I'm going to refute my own advice and risk the banhammer by saying this; we as a community need to be very careful about idolizing/encouraging such intimate details about the lives of our stars, adding transgenders to the list of popular fringe personalities in the Starcraft community is IMO only going to keep us at the fringe of society, atleast while the community has so much dirty underwear floating around the internet(this being not the worst but maybe the oddest?). Allthough I understand transgender as a personal choice I think it begs the question if it is a personal issue why does it have any place being a well-known and accepted fact in the community?
Being transgender isn't a personal choice, it's neuroanatomically hardwired, and transitioning is unfortunately the most public private thing one can do. Trans women weren't men, they are women; they just were/still are more or less male and have been forced against their will to live as such; there's a huge difference between gender and sex. Gender also has got nothing to do with sexual orientation, trans women can still be lesbian/bi/asexual. And Scarlett did come out on reddit right after IPL4 that she's transgender.
And so you say that just because being trans is generally viewed very negatively and horrendously misinformedly by society, you'd rather take away trans people's rights to compete at high levels not to give a "bad reputation" to the community? Seriously? Plus if anything, the community accepting trans people gives the community a better reputation, and it also spreads more awareness that being trans is in fact a normal thing, it's not some mental insanity / sexual deviance.
And the fact that more girls don't play SC2 at high level is purely social, as a result of girls playing video games being frowned upon, let alone playing it a lot, very seriously and openly.
I never said don't let her compete, I SAID IF YOU READ MY POSTS.
Do not let her receive woman's awards/play in women's tournaments/be haralded as the coming of eve in SC2
Well what were you implying then with the last paragraph in your post that I previously quoted?
And she was invited to the Iron Lady tournaments by the hosts, and the other participants were aware and didn't mind the fact that she's trans. In my opinion it should indeed be up to the tournament hosts and the other participants. If they don't have a problem with it, then why should uninvolved people have a say in it?
And what do you want people to say then? To keep telling it every time that Scarlett and LeiYa are trans?
On November 26 2012 19:08 GeNeSiDe wrote: Wow wait so puck is a dude who wants to be a chick, went away to switch gender surgery? Really looked like a guy wtf
And Scarlett is actually a dude too? Why is it marked as "the most successful female sc2" when there's a penis hanging between her/his/it's legs.
Jesus
I mean it's not fair to real girls that some husky voiced tranny is taking their crown, in fact it's worse because it further pushes women out if the only competitive "chicks" used to be guys/still are but won't admit it
-.- seriously?
I have a dick between my legs which means I can't turn up to women's sports. I can't break the women's 100m because I'm a man and women are slower, even if I was convinced I was a woman. Your not a woman or a man because you DECIDE; it's a permanent biological condition and plastic surgery does not address this. So yeah, holding up Scarlett as the women's role model when she is biologically a man is abit silly no?
as far as i'm concerned you're a dick entirely. no fucking point in arguing with someone who is so clearly deluded with the idea that you are what you look like. read up on kleinfelter's. read about turner's. read about SRY translocation. read about androgen insensitivity. then fucking tell us if you still think gender is as black and white as you make it out to be. you know next to nothing about either of these people and yet you just assume they're deciding what they want to be.
I'm guessing there are no mods on at the moment, 'cause he'd have been warned/banned for his first post alone.
It's all good if people switch genders, and it's great that TL is so accepting. But I sincerely hope that people don't overestimate, hype up, or go wild about the transgender thing. It's what happened with Scarlett - she's great, don't get me wrong, but from the very start when she was an obscure random name that beat a Korean, she was incredibly over-hyped (like when she got knocked out of the tournament I checked TL and there was already a 8 page fan club).
still dont get it why they ban him fckin cencorship, he wasnt offending just telling his opinion .. i have no problem with transgenders but i still get his point, if hussein bolt would change sex and breaks all female running records is it fair/legit??
You forgot the crown rule of TL is; be nice, be safe, and avoid saying anything controversial in fear of the ban hammer as older men fear god; can be a mighty tool to avoid trolling but when freedom of expression has to be sacrificed in the name of peace and equality, how much do you value that peace and equality, knowing that it is only bestowed upon you by those who see you not as the person you are but simply a IP address and viewership number to be crushed like a bug if need be...
Agreed, the fundamental point here to drive home is that pretty much any coverage of Scarlett has been on the lines of "this girl rocks the world, taking down all these men" etc etc...
I'm sorry but the first thing that appeared when she joined Eclypsia was how it was awesome it was to have a successful woman pro-gamer who had a track record of sticking it to Koreans and that's how I've thought of her until now; I'm sorry but I feel so cheated having cheered her on all these times, telling people how PROUD I was that women were finally breaking through in SC and not just a side-game joke like SlayersEve vs ST-Aprodite, only to find out that the woman I was cheering on is a man in the process/who has become a woman?
I'm sorry but this is a blatant manipulation of the psyche of the Starcraft community, because if Scarlett shows up BEING HER/HIS/IT's self and we don't get this "women can do it too" PR campaign there's nothing wrong, I had a girl in school who wanted to be a boy, changed her name and got the surgery as an adult, she(he) is cool now. I understand this wasn't her fault, she deserves the attention for her results and I'm sure everyone was just as confused about this, fair play. However it would be incredibly daft, unfair and problematic if either LeiYa or Scarlett are shone as the beacon of women gamers(I know LeiYa won't be as she was known as PuCK for ages now and was known as a man) when I'll go out on a limb and say that any female gamer's would not look to these two as their predecessors/idols, because at the end of the day, beyond all the 21st century, you can be who you want to be bollocks, these two WERE men, and may technically still be(I guess would make for the best kind of gay friend?)
I'm going to refute my own advice and risk the banhammer by saying this; we as a community need to be very careful about idolizing/encouraging such intimate details about the lives of our stars, adding transgenders to the list of popular fringe personalities in the Starcraft community is IMO only going to keep us at the fringe of society, atleast while the community has so much dirty underwear floating around the internet(this being not the worst but maybe the oddest?). Although I understand transgender as a personal choice I think it begs the question if it is a personal issue why does it have any place being a well-known and accepted fact in the community?
I don't exactly get how this "manipulation of the psyche of the Starcraft community" transpired, because if I remember correctly, Scarlett made a name for herself by playing in the IPL 4 open bracket and during the same event, if not within minutes of her video interview, someone on reddit posted claims about her being a transgender (mostly because of the adam's apple that was visible during the interview with Hot_Bid, as well as her voice seeming a bit weird) which was confirmed within hours.
That's all I'm saying here, nobody was manipulated. This information has, for better or for worse, been made public from the get-go.
I do agree that there's an excess of zeal in the moderation and banhammering of controversial posts on topics like transgendered people and even homosexuality, but you might want to take that one to the Website Feedback section.
Well for someone like myself who has time to watch the games/read the highlights but couldn't give a rat's ass about interviews and other such stuff, this Scarlett thing went over my head until I read this post. Yeah, I'd checked her out and been like "no way"(tbh my radar was tingling when I first saw pics as well), but looking back this is the kind of stuff im referring to.
Source:"Scarlett Joins Eclypsia" http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329727 Excerpt: "The 18 year old Canadian only started playing a year ago and first started to make a name for herself this Autumn, winning two Iron Lady Champion Cups".
Ok so just to start off, why has nobody taken those titles off her and given them to the runner ups? As recently as 04/2012 it shows her winning an "Iron Lady Leetgion" Tournament, this must have been long after she had come out the the community, still shitting on real females in an all-girl cup, cleverly lying on this screen at ESL to do it:
Requirements
Current requirements: Gender Your gender has to be the following one.
Required gender: f Gameaccount Players must have added the following gameaccount to their account to play in this league.
Type: StarCraft II Nick#Character code (Battle.net US) (click here to add) min. members: 1
Next up we have this:
Source:http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Female_SC2_Scene Excerpt: In July, Scarlett made history, being the first woman to win a major mixed gender championship as she won the Canadian national finals for the 2012 StarCraft II World Championship. A week later, Aphrodite, too, made history being the first woman to have a broadcasted game in GOMTV's SC2 production
Scarlett is the first woman to win a major tournament and the only female player to win a national finals in WCS, not to mention a continental finals.
I have made my point now what say thou?
She was personally allowed by the organizers of those tournaments to play in them. Iron Lady cups fully knew the situation. Scarlett has never tried to hide her gender situation; it was almost immediately known after IPL. It is not her fault that you are unaware of these events and are only now outraged.
Generally, people who identify as women are referred to as "female". It is clear that you cannot accept this, and there is nothing that can really be changed about that. While it is within your rights to have your opinions on the matters and I do hope that there isn't rampant mod action, it is quite insulting and hurtful to state that some people who identify as female should not be allowed to live how they would like to, just because it offends some people's sensibilities.
On November 26 2012 19:08 GeNeSiDe wrote: Wow wait so puck is a dude who wants to be a chick, went away to switch gender surgery? Really looked like a guy wtf
And Scarlett is actually a dude too? Why is it marked as "the most successful female sc2" when there's a penis hanging between her/his/it's legs.
Jesus
I mean it's not fair to real girls that some husky voiced tranny is taking their crown, in fact it's worse because it further pushes women out if the only competitive "chicks" used to be guys/still are but won't admit it
-.- seriously?
I have a dick between my legs which means I can't turn up to women's sports. I can't break the women's 100m because I'm a man and women are slower, even if I was convinced I was a woman. Your not a woman or a man because you DECIDE; it's a permanent biological condition and plastic surgery does not address this. So yeah, holding up Scarlett as the women's role model when she is biologically a man is abit silly no?
as far as i'm concerned you're a dick entirely. no fucking point in arguing with someone who is so clearly deluded with the idea that you are what you look like. read up on kleinfelter's. read about turner's. read about SRY translocation. read about androgen insensitivity. then fucking tell us if you still think gender is as black and white as you make it out to be. you know next to nothing about either of these people and yet you just assume they're deciding what they want to be.
I'm guessing there are no mods on at the moment, 'cause he'd have been warned/banned for his first post alone.
It's all good if people switch genders, and it's great that TL is so accepting. But I sincerely hope that people don't overestimate, hype up, or go wild about the transgender thing. It's what happened with Scarlett - she's great, don't get me wrong, but from the very start when she was an obscure random name that beat a Korean, she was incredibly over-hyped (like when she got knocked out of the tournament I checked TL and there was already a 8 page fan club).
still dont get it why they ban him fckin cencorship, he wasnt offending just telling his opinion .. i have no problem with transgenders but i still get his point, if hussein bolt would change sex and breaks all female running records is it fair/legit??
You forgot the crown rule of TL is; be nice, be safe, and avoid saying anything controversial in fear of the ban hammer as older men fear god; can be a mighty tool to avoid trolling but when freedom of expression has to be sacrificed in the name of peace and equality, how much do you value that peace and equality, knowing that it is only bestowed upon you by those who see you not as the person you are but simply a IP address and viewership number to be crushed like a bug if need be...
Agreed, the fundamental point here to drive home is that pretty much any coverage of Scarlett has been on the lines of "this girl rocks the world, taking down all these men" etc etc...
I'm sorry but the first thing that appeared when she joined Eclypsia was how it was awesome it was to have a successful woman pro-gamer who had a track record of sticking it to Koreans and that's how I've thought of her until now; I'm sorry but I feel so cheated having cheered her on all these times, telling people how PROUD I was that women were finally breaking through in SC and not just a side-game joke like SlayersEve vs ST-Aprodite, only to find out that the woman I was cheering on is a man in the process/who has become a woman?
I'm sorry but this is a blatant manipulation of the psyche of the Starcraft community, because if Scarlett shows up BEING HER/HIS/IT's self and we don't get this "women can do it too" PR campaign there's nothing wrong, I had a girl in school who wanted to be a boy, changed her name and got the surgery as an adult, she(he) is cool now. I understand this wasn't her fault, she deserves the attention for her results and I'm sure everyone was just as confused about this, fair play. However it would be incredibly daft, unfair and problematic if either LeiYa or Scarlett are shone as the beacon of women gamers(I know LeiYa won't be as she was known as PuCK for ages now and was known as a man) when I'll go out on a limb and say that any female gamer's would not look to these two as their predecessors/idols, because at the end of the day, beyond all the 21st century, you can be who you want to be bollocks, these two WERE men, and may technically still be(I guess would make for the best kind of gay friend?)
I'm going to refute my own advice and risk the banhammer by saying this; we as a community need to be very careful about idolizing/encouraging such intimate details about the lives of our stars, adding transgenders to the list of popular fringe personalities in the Starcraft community is IMO only going to keep us at the fringe of society, atleast while the community has so much dirty underwear floating around the internet(this being not the worst but maybe the oddest?). Allthough I understand transgender as a personal choice I think it begs the question if it is a personal issue why does it have any place being a well-known and accepted fact in the community?
Being transgender isn't a personal choice, it's neuroanatomically hardwired, and transitioning is unfortunately the most public private thing one can do. Trans women weren't men, they are women; they just were/still are more or less male and have been forced against their will to live as such; there's a huge difference between gender and sex. Gender also has got nothing to do with sexual orientation, trans women can still be lesbian/bi/asexual. And Scarlett did come out on reddit right after IPL4 that she's transgender.
And so you say that just because being trans is generally viewed very negatively and horrendously misinformedly by society, you'd rather take away trans people's rights to compete at high levels not to give a "bad reputation" to the community? Seriously? Plus if anything, the community accepting trans people gives the community a better reputation, and it also spreads more awareness that being trans is in fact a normal thing, it's not some mental insanity / sexual deviance.
And the fact that more girls don't play SC2 at high level is purely social, as a result of girls playing video games being frowned upon, let alone playing it a lot, very seriously and openly.
I never said don't let her compete, I SAID IF YOU READ MY POSTS.
Do not let her receive woman's awards/play in women's tournaments/be haralded as the coming of eve in SC2
Well what were you implying then with the last paragraph in your post that I previously quoted?
And she was invited to the Iron Lady tournaments by the hosts, and the other participants were aware and didn't mind the fact that she's trans. In my opinion it should indeed be up to the tournament hosts and the other participants. If they don't have a problem with it, then why should uninvolved people have a say in it?
And what do you want people to say then? To keep telling it every time that Scarlett and LeiYa are trans?
I was merely suggesting the fact that promoting fringe personalities is a way to stay as a fringe community, I just don't see the public accepting the fact that trans players win women's tournaments; I mean even saying it myself is so bloody unfair, why not just let men compete and get rid of gender tournaments.
TBH it just gives me even more of a reason to completely turn my back on the laughably small group of female SC2 "pro" gamers.
But hey if they want it to go in the SC Bible Volume 2 in that huge records section, next to all the great records we have in our 2 years with this game, that Scarlett was the first woman to win a mixed tournaments, I'll let them live with that fallacy.
The public already knows about her Iron Lady wins, and for the most part no one threw a fit.
Be honest, were you ever going to support female SC2 pros anyways?
Scarlett doesn't give a crap about being in a "bible" or holding "records"; she became famous for her play. There's no need to skew things just because it offends you.
On November 26 2012 19:08 GeNeSiDe wrote: Wow wait so puck is a dude who wants to be a chick, went away to switch gender surgery? Really looked like a guy wtf
And Scarlett is actually a dude too? Why is it marked as "the most successful female sc2" when there's a penis hanging between her/his/it's legs.
Jesus
I mean it's not fair to real girls that some husky voiced tranny is taking their crown, in fact it's worse because it further pushes women out if the only competitive "chicks" used to be guys/still are but won't admit it
-.- seriously?
I have a dick between my legs which means I can't turn up to women's sports. I can't break the women's 100m because I'm a man and women are slower, even if I was convinced I was a woman. Your not a woman or a man because you DECIDE; it's a permanent biological condition and plastic surgery does not address this. So yeah, holding up Scarlett as the women's role model when she is biologically a man is abit silly no?
as far as i'm concerned you're a dick entirely. no fucking point in arguing with someone who is so clearly deluded with the idea that you are what you look like. read up on kleinfelter's. read about turner's. read about SRY translocation. read about androgen insensitivity. then fucking tell us if you still think gender is as black and white as you make it out to be. you know next to nothing about either of these people and yet you just assume they're deciding what they want to be.
I'm guessing there are no mods on at the moment, 'cause he'd have been warned/banned for his first post alone.
It's all good if people switch genders, and it's great that TL is so accepting. But I sincerely hope that people don't overestimate, hype up, or go wild about the transgender thing. It's what happened with Scarlett - she's great, don't get me wrong, but from the very start when she was an obscure random name that beat a Korean, she was incredibly over-hyped (like when she got knocked out of the tournament I checked TL and there was already a 8 page fan club).
still dont get it why they ban him fckin cencorship, he wasnt offending just telling his opinion .. i have no problem with transgenders but i still get his point, if hussein bolt would change sex and breaks all female running records is it fair/legit??
You forgot the crown rule of TL is; be nice, be safe, and avoid saying anything controversial in fear of the ban hammer as older men fear god; can be a mighty tool to avoid trolling but when freedom of expression has to be sacrificed in the name of peace and equality, how much do you value that peace and equality, knowing that it is only bestowed upon you by those who see you not as the person you are but simply a IP address and viewership number to be crushed like a bug if need be...
Agreed, the fundamental point here to drive home is that pretty much any coverage of Scarlett has been on the lines of "this girl rocks the world, taking down all these men" etc etc...
I'm sorry but the first thing that appeared when she joined Eclypsia was how it was awesome it was to have a successful woman pro-gamer who had a track record of sticking it to Koreans and that's how I've thought of her until now; I'm sorry but I feel so cheated having cheered her on all these times, telling people how PROUD I was that women were finally breaking through in SC and not just a side-game joke like SlayersEve vs ST-Aprodite, only to find out that the woman I was cheering on is a man in the process/who has become a woman?
I'm sorry but this is a blatant manipulation of the psyche of the Starcraft community, because if Scarlett shows up BEING HER/HIS/IT's self and we don't get this "women can do it too" PR campaign there's nothing wrong, I had a girl in school who wanted to be a boy, changed her name and got the surgery as an adult, she(he) is cool now. I understand this wasn't her fault, she deserves the attention for her results and I'm sure everyone was just as confused about this, fair play. However it would be incredibly daft, unfair and problematic if either LeiYa or Scarlett are shone as the beacon of women gamers(I know LeiYa won't be as she was known as PuCK for ages now and was known as a man) when I'll go out on a limb and say that any female gamer's would not look to these two as their predecessors/idols, because at the end of the day, beyond all the 21st century, you can be who you want to be bollocks, these two WERE men, and may technically still be(I guess would make for the best kind of gay friend?)
I'm going to refute my own advice and risk the banhammer by saying this; we as a community need to be very careful about idolizing/encouraging such intimate details about the lives of our stars, adding transgenders to the list of popular fringe personalities in the Starcraft community is IMO only going to keep us at the fringe of society, atleast while the community has so much dirty underwear floating around the internet(this being not the worst but maybe the oddest?). Although I understand transgender as a personal choice I think it begs the question if it is a personal issue why does it have any place being a well-known and accepted fact in the community?
I don't exactly get how this "manipulation of the psyche of the Starcraft community" transpired, because if I remember correctly, Scarlett made a name for herself by playing in the IPL 4 open bracket and during the same event, if not within minutes of her video interview, someone on reddit posted claims about her being a transgender (mostly because of the adam's apple that was visible during the interview with Hot_Bid, as well as her voice seeming a bit weird) which was confirmed within hours.
That's all I'm saying here, nobody was manipulated. This information has, for better or for worse, been made public from the get-go.
I do agree that there's an excess of zeal in the moderation and banhammering of controversial posts on topics like transgendered people and even homosexuality, but you might want to take that one to the Website Feedback section.
Well for someone like myself who has time to watch the games/read the highlights but couldn't give a rat's ass about interviews and other such stuff, this Scarlett thing went over my head until I read this post. Yeah, I'd checked her out and been like "no way"(tbh my radar was tingling when I first saw pics as well), but looking back this is the kind of stuff im referring to.
Source:"Scarlett Joins Eclypsia" http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329727 Excerpt: "The 18 year old Canadian only started playing a year ago and first started to make a name for herself this Autumn, winning two Iron Lady Champion Cups".
Ok so just to start off, why has nobody taken those titles off her and given them to the runner ups? As recently as 04/2012 it shows her winning an "Iron Lady Leetgion" Tournament, this must have been long after she had come out the the community, still shitting on real females in an all-girl cup, cleverly lying on this screen at ESL to do it:
Requirements
Current requirements: Gender Your gender has to be the following one.
Required gender: f Gameaccount Players must have added the following gameaccount to their account to play in this league.
Type: StarCraft II Nick#Character code (Battle.net US) (click here to add) min. members: 1
Next up we have this:
Source:http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Female_SC2_Scene Excerpt: In July, Scarlett made history, being the first woman to win a major mixed gender championship as she won the Canadian national finals for the 2012 StarCraft II World Championship. A week later, Aphrodite, too, made history being the first woman to have a broadcasted game in GOMTV's SC2 production
Scarlett is the first woman to win a major tournament and the only female player to win a national finals in WCS, not to mention a continental finals.
I have made my point now what say thou?
She was personally allowed by the organizers of those tournaments to play in them. Iron Lady cups fully knew the situation. Scarlett has never tried to hide her gender situation; it was almost immediately known after IPL. It is not her fault that you are unaware of these events and are only now outraged.
Generally, people who identify as women are referred to as "female". It is clear that you cannot accept this, and there is nothing that can really be changed about that. While it is within your rights to have your opinions on the matters and I do hope that there isn't rampant mod action, it is quite insulting and hurtful to state that some people who identify as female should not be allowed to live how they would like to, just because it offends some people's sensibilities.
I'm sorry and this may sound horribly 18th Century, but I don't "identify" as a man. I was born one, confirmed by a doctor with 10 years of education and extensive experience. It's written in your passport and that's that, Male or Female, some Men may be gay or want to be women, some women may want to be men , but your still defined by which genitals you are born with.
Again, if you read my post, I couldn't give a rat's ass about how Scarlett or LeiYa choose to behave as long as they won't do it around me. I'm not taking away from their basic civil rights, I care about upholding the worthiness of a title like "first woman to...." when it's NOT TRUE. Don't you get it, at the bottom of it all. I take this community seriously but to me this would be like MVP going in the record books to have won his G5L trophy because he played in an online league once called G5L and won rather than what actually supposed to happen.
You know, the way an actual woman was supposed to receive this accolade.
Thus this title is a false flag operation, but hell obviously no one gives a shit about the integrity of the game, we just want to be all peace and happy and cool you can be who you want to be.
On November 27 2012 04:58 EchelonTee wrote: The public already knows about her Iron Lady wins, and for the most part no one threw a fit.
Be honest, were you ever going to support female SC2 pros anyways?
Scarlett doesn't give a crap about being in a "bible" or holding "records"; she became famous for her play. There's no need to skew things just because it offends you.
I was proud of Scarlett as a fellow Canadian and also as a woman. I can still be proud of the first statement but we all know what I think of the second.
Just can't wait for a nice CNN, FOX or BBC article about all this, gonna look bad. Maybe I should edit her Liquipedia myself to make it more truthful(take away the false allegations).
And it wouldn't be skewing things to say instead of "first woman to blah blah blah" to be "first transgender to blah blah blah"
It would be a truthful statement and all would be right in the world.
The gender identification is a long discussion that doesn't really have a place here. Science and Psychology has quite a few points to bring up on the subject, but that's neither here nor there.
I've read your posts a few times; that's why I felt the need to respond. Honestly, I can see where you're coming from, but this is one of those issues that doesn't have an easy resolution. It'd be like if a foreigner korean won GSL; people would say "omg first foreign win of GSL!", but others would say "lol but he's still korean".
I don't see how this ruins the integrity of the game, however. I think that you are taking this a bit too personally; I don't see how Scarlett and LeiYa are directly ruining the game for you, except that they have taken some "title" that no one places too much import on. If a non-transgendered female ends up winning a major tourny, there is no way that that accomplishment will not be recognized.
On November 26 2012 19:18 TheDraken wrote: [quote]
-.- seriously?
I have a dick between my legs which means I can't turn up to women's sports. I can't break the women's 100m because I'm a man and women are slower, even if I was convinced I was a woman. Your not a woman or a man because you DECIDE; it's a permanent biological condition and plastic surgery does not address this. So yeah, holding up Scarlett as the women's role model when she is biologically a man is abit silly no?
as far as i'm concerned you're a dick entirely. no fucking point in arguing with someone who is so clearly deluded with the idea that you are what you look like. read up on kleinfelter's. read about turner's. read about SRY translocation. read about androgen insensitivity. then fucking tell us if you still think gender is as black and white as you make it out to be. you know next to nothing about either of these people and yet you just assume they're deciding what they want to be.
I'm guessing there are no mods on at the moment, 'cause he'd have been warned/banned for his first post alone.
It's all good if people switch genders, and it's great that TL is so accepting. But I sincerely hope that people don't overestimate, hype up, or go wild about the transgender thing. It's what happened with Scarlett - she's great, don't get me wrong, but from the very start when she was an obscure random name that beat a Korean, she was incredibly over-hyped (like when she got knocked out of the tournament I checked TL and there was already a 8 page fan club).
still dont get it why they ban him fckin cencorship, he wasnt offending just telling his opinion .. i have no problem with transgenders but i still get his point, if hussein bolt would change sex and breaks all female running records is it fair/legit??
You forgot the crown rule of TL is; be nice, be safe, and avoid saying anything controversial in fear of the ban hammer as older men fear god; can be a mighty tool to avoid trolling but when freedom of expression has to be sacrificed in the name of peace and equality, how much do you value that peace and equality, knowing that it is only bestowed upon you by those who see you not as the person you are but simply a IP address and viewership number to be crushed like a bug if need be...
Agreed, the fundamental point here to drive home is that pretty much any coverage of Scarlett has been on the lines of "this girl rocks the world, taking down all these men" etc etc...
I'm sorry but the first thing that appeared when she joined Eclypsia was how it was awesome it was to have a successful woman pro-gamer who had a track record of sticking it to Koreans and that's how I've thought of her until now; I'm sorry but I feel so cheated having cheered her on all these times, telling people how PROUD I was that women were finally breaking through in SC and not just a side-game joke like SlayersEve vs ST-Aprodite, only to find out that the woman I was cheering on is a man in the process/who has become a woman?
I'm sorry but this is a blatant manipulation of the psyche of the Starcraft community, because if Scarlett shows up BEING HER/HIS/IT's self and we don't get this "women can do it too" PR campaign there's nothing wrong, I had a girl in school who wanted to be a boy, changed her name and got the surgery as an adult, she(he) is cool now. I understand this wasn't her fault, she deserves the attention for her results and I'm sure everyone was just as confused about this, fair play. However it would be incredibly daft, unfair and problematic if either LeiYa or Scarlett are shone as the beacon of women gamers(I know LeiYa won't be as she was known as PuCK for ages now and was known as a man) when I'll go out on a limb and say that any female gamer's would not look to these two as their predecessors/idols, because at the end of the day, beyond all the 21st century, you can be who you want to be bollocks, these two WERE men, and may technically still be(I guess would make for the best kind of gay friend?)
I'm going to refute my own advice and risk the banhammer by saying this; we as a community need to be very careful about idolizing/encouraging such intimate details about the lives of our stars, adding transgenders to the list of popular fringe personalities in the Starcraft community is IMO only going to keep us at the fringe of society, atleast while the community has so much dirty underwear floating around the internet(this being not the worst but maybe the oddest?). Although I understand transgender as a personal choice I think it begs the question if it is a personal issue why does it have any place being a well-known and accepted fact in the community?
I don't exactly get how this "manipulation of the psyche of the Starcraft community" transpired, because if I remember correctly, Scarlett made a name for herself by playing in the IPL 4 open bracket and during the same event, if not within minutes of her video interview, someone on reddit posted claims about her being a transgender (mostly because of the adam's apple that was visible during the interview with Hot_Bid, as well as her voice seeming a bit weird) which was confirmed within hours.
That's all I'm saying here, nobody was manipulated. This information has, for better or for worse, been made public from the get-go.
I do agree that there's an excess of zeal in the moderation and banhammering of controversial posts on topics like transgendered people and even homosexuality, but you might want to take that one to the Website Feedback section.
Well for someone like myself who has time to watch the games/read the highlights but couldn't give a rat's ass about interviews and other such stuff, this Scarlett thing went over my head until I read this post. Yeah, I'd checked her out and been like "no way"(tbh my radar was tingling when I first saw pics as well), but looking back this is the kind of stuff im referring to.
Source:"Scarlett Joins Eclypsia" http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329727 Excerpt: "The 18 year old Canadian only started playing a year ago and first started to make a name for herself this Autumn, winning two Iron Lady Champion Cups".
Ok so just to start off, why has nobody taken those titles off her and given them to the runner ups? As recently as 04/2012 it shows her winning an "Iron Lady Leetgion" Tournament, this must have been long after she had come out the the community, still shitting on real females in an all-girl cup, cleverly lying on this screen at ESL to do it:
Requirements
Current requirements: Gender Your gender has to be the following one.
Required gender: f Gameaccount Players must have added the following gameaccount to their account to play in this league.
Type: StarCraft II Nick#Character code (Battle.net US) (click here to add) min. members: 1
Next up we have this:
Source:http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Female_SC2_Scene Excerpt: In July, Scarlett made history, being the first woman to win a major mixed gender championship as she won the Canadian national finals for the 2012 StarCraft II World Championship. A week later, Aphrodite, too, made history being the first woman to have a broadcasted game in GOMTV's SC2 production
Scarlett is the first woman to win a major tournament and the only female player to win a national finals in WCS, not to mention a continental finals.
I have made my point now what say thou?
She was personally allowed by the organizers of those tournaments to play in them. Iron Lady cups fully knew the situation. Scarlett has never tried to hide her gender situation; it was almost immediately known after IPL. It is not her fault that you are unaware of these events and are only now outraged.
Generally, people who identify as women are referred to as "female". It is clear that you cannot accept this, and there is nothing that can really be changed about that. While it is within your rights to have your opinions on the matters and I do hope that there isn't rampant mod action, it is quite insulting and hurtful to state that some people who identify as female should not be allowed to live how they would like to, just because it offends some people's sensibilities.
I'm sorry and this may sound horribly 18th Century, but I don't "identify" as a man. I was born one, confirmed by a doctor with 10 years of education and extensive experience. It's written in your passport and that's that, Male or Female, some Men may be gay or want to be women, some women may want to be men , but your still defined by which genitals you are born with.
What about intersex people who are born with ambiguous genitalia? Doctors have a 50% chance of assigning them right at birth, the other 50% will retransition to their identified gender later on in life just like trans people. Gender isn't defined by genitals, only assigned sex is defined by them. Gender is rooted in the Hypothalamic bed nucleus of the Stria terminalis that is sexually dimorphic and can develop in such way that it will match that of the opposite sex's.
So yes, 18th century stuff regarding this are outdated, this is the 21th century and the medical field has evolved since then. It is not a psychopathology or baseless claiming, it is a scientifically replicable and provable neuroanatomical (therefore physical) medical condition caused by a genetic and/or hormonal birth defect. Not one's genitals are going to tell them what they are, but their midbrain. It's just a rare enough and difficult to examine condition that it's impractical to assign people based on that at birth.
On November 26 2012 19:18 TheDraken wrote: [quote]
-.- seriously?
I have a dick between my legs which means I can't turn up to women's sports. I can't break the women's 100m because I'm a man and women are slower, even if I was convinced I was a woman. Your not a woman or a man because you DECIDE; it's a permanent biological condition and plastic surgery does not address this. So yeah, holding up Scarlett as the women's role model when she is biologically a man is abit silly no?
as far as i'm concerned you're a dick entirely. no fucking point in arguing with someone who is so clearly deluded with the idea that you are what you look like. read up on kleinfelter's. read about turner's. read about SRY translocation. read about androgen insensitivity. then fucking tell us if you still think gender is as black and white as you make it out to be. you know next to nothing about either of these people and yet you just assume they're deciding what they want to be.
I'm guessing there are no mods on at the moment, 'cause he'd have been warned/banned for his first post alone.
It's all good if people switch genders, and it's great that TL is so accepting. But I sincerely hope that people don't overestimate, hype up, or go wild about the transgender thing. It's what happened with Scarlett - she's great, don't get me wrong, but from the very start when she was an obscure random name that beat a Korean, she was incredibly over-hyped (like when she got knocked out of the tournament I checked TL and there was already a 8 page fan club).
still dont get it why they ban him fckin cencorship, he wasnt offending just telling his opinion .. i have no problem with transgenders but i still get his point, if hussein bolt would change sex and breaks all female running records is it fair/legit??
You forgot the crown rule of TL is; be nice, be safe, and avoid saying anything controversial in fear of the ban hammer as older men fear god; can be a mighty tool to avoid trolling but when freedom of expression has to be sacrificed in the name of peace and equality, how much do you value that peace and equality, knowing that it is only bestowed upon you by those who see you not as the person you are but simply a IP address and viewership number to be crushed like a bug if need be...
Agreed, the fundamental point here to drive home is that pretty much any coverage of Scarlett has been on the lines of "this girl rocks the world, taking down all these men" etc etc...
I'm sorry but the first thing that appeared when she joined Eclypsia was how it was awesome it was to have a successful woman pro-gamer who had a track record of sticking it to Koreans and that's how I've thought of her until now; I'm sorry but I feel so cheated having cheered her on all these times, telling people how PROUD I was that women were finally breaking through in SC and not just a side-game joke like SlayersEve vs ST-Aprodite, only to find out that the woman I was cheering on is a man in the process/who has become a woman?
I'm sorry but this is a blatant manipulation of the psyche of the Starcraft community, because if Scarlett shows up BEING HER/HIS/IT's self and we don't get this "women can do it too" PR campaign there's nothing wrong, I had a girl in school who wanted to be a boy, changed her name and got the surgery as an adult, she(he) is cool now. I understand this wasn't her fault, she deserves the attention for her results and I'm sure everyone was just as confused about this, fair play. However it would be incredibly daft, unfair and problematic if either LeiYa or Scarlett are shone as the beacon of women gamers(I know LeiYa won't be as she was known as PuCK for ages now and was known as a man) when I'll go out on a limb and say that any female gamer's would not look to these two as their predecessors/idols, because at the end of the day, beyond all the 21st century, you can be who you want to be bollocks, these two WERE men, and may technically still be(I guess would make for the best kind of gay friend?)
I'm going to refute my own advice and risk the banhammer by saying this; we as a community need to be very careful about idolizing/encouraging such intimate details about the lives of our stars, adding transgenders to the list of popular fringe personalities in the Starcraft community is IMO only going to keep us at the fringe of society, atleast while the community has so much dirty underwear floating around the internet(this being not the worst but maybe the oddest?). Although I understand transgender as a personal choice I think it begs the question if it is a personal issue why does it have any place being a well-known and accepted fact in the community?
I don't exactly get how this "manipulation of the psyche of the Starcraft community" transpired, because if I remember correctly, Scarlett made a name for herself by playing in the IPL 4 open bracket and during the same event, if not within minutes of her video interview, someone on reddit posted claims about her being a transgender (mostly because of the adam's apple that was visible during the interview with Hot_Bid, as well as her voice seeming a bit weird) which was confirmed within hours.
That's all I'm saying here, nobody was manipulated. This information has, for better or for worse, been made public from the get-go.
I do agree that there's an excess of zeal in the moderation and banhammering of controversial posts on topics like transgendered people and even homosexuality, but you might want to take that one to the Website Feedback section.
Well for someone like myself who has time to watch the games/read the highlights but couldn't give a rat's ass about interviews and other such stuff, this Scarlett thing went over my head until I read this post. Yeah, I'd checked her out and been like "no way"(tbh my radar was tingling when I first saw pics as well), but looking back this is the kind of stuff im referring to.
Source:"Scarlett Joins Eclypsia" http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329727 Excerpt: "The 18 year old Canadian only started playing a year ago and first started to make a name for herself this Autumn, winning two Iron Lady Champion Cups".
Ok so just to start off, why has nobody taken those titles off her and given them to the runner ups? As recently as 04/2012 it shows her winning an "Iron Lady Leetgion" Tournament, this must have been long after she had come out the the community, still shitting on real females in an all-girl cup, cleverly lying on this screen at ESL to do it:
Requirements
Current requirements: Gender Your gender has to be the following one.
Required gender: f Gameaccount Players must have added the following gameaccount to their account to play in this league.
Type: StarCraft II Nick#Character code (Battle.net US) (click here to add) min. members: 1
Next up we have this:
Source:http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Female_SC2_Scene Excerpt: In July, Scarlett made history, being the first woman to win a major mixed gender championship as she won the Canadian national finals for the 2012 StarCraft II World Championship. A week later, Aphrodite, too, made history being the first woman to have a broadcasted game in GOMTV's SC2 production
Scarlett is the first woman to win a major tournament and the only female player to win a national finals in WCS, not to mention a continental finals.
I have made my point now what say thou?
She was personally allowed by the organizers of those tournaments to play in them. Iron Lady cups fully knew the situation. Scarlett has never tried to hide her gender situation; it was almost immediately known after IPL. It is not her fault that you are unaware of these events and are only now outraged.
Generally, people who identify as women are referred to as "female". It is clear that you cannot accept this, and there is nothing that can really be changed about that. While it is within your rights to have your opinions on the matters and I do hope that there isn't rampant mod action, it is quite insulting and hurtful to state that some people who identify as female should not be allowed to live how they would like to, just because it offends some people's sensibilities.
I'm sorry and this may sound horribly 18th Century, but I don't "identify" as a man. I was born one, confirmed by a doctor with 10 years of education and extensive experience. It's written in your passport and that's that, Male or Female, some Men may be gay or want to be women, some women may want to be men , but your still defined by which genitals you are born with.
Again, if you read my post, I couldn't give a rat's ass about how Scarlett or LeiYa choose to behave as long as they won't do it around me. I'm not taking away from their basic civil rights, I care about upholding the worthiness of a title like "first woman to...." when it's NOT TRUE. Don't you get it, at the bottom of it all. I take this community seriously but to me this would be like MVP going in the record books to have won his G5L trophy because he played in an online league once called G5L and won rather than what actually supposed to happen.
You know, the way an actual woman was supposed to receive this accolade.
Thus this title is a false flag operation, but hell obviously no one gives a shit about the integrity of the game, we just want to be all peace and happy and cool you can be who you want to be.
G
Honestly dude you're making a huge deal out of something that really isn't. In the end, it was up to the admins and participants to allow her to play in the tournament and since they were okay with that it doesn't really matter what your or I think. You're free to discredit her accomplishments but please don't act as if you have the authority to dictate what others should think and do, especially for a reason as pompous and self-righteous as "the bible of sc" (lol).
Also you realize that you complained about over-moderation on this delicate topic (which I don't disagree with) and then proceed to try and force your own views upon others and tell them what to think and what's good for the scene? (lol; and also it's just your opinion) A bit hypocritical if you ask me.
Anyway I recommend that you take a chill pill and focus on more important issues.
EPT
