Stop derailing this thread. This is an announcement concerning two players. If you want to talk about players who are not MajOr and LeiYa, you're in the wrong thread.
Hey guys this is Juan and I am really sad to announce that ROOT and I will be parting ways tonight. I am disappointed in my results as of late, especially the WCS ones. My dream has always been since Brood War to join a Kespa team and this is what I will try to go after. At ROOT I said from the start that joining a Kespa team was my dream, and I thank them for being understanding and letting me go after this dream.
Staying in ROOT was a great experience. It's being with good friends and just being like a family aspect TT1 ToD Vibu CatZ drewbie Maru slush etc. I had a lot of fun for the most part in this team. I been here for quite some time and it felt really nice to be cared by a team, something I never felt before, but as I said I have to try to achieve what I want, I wish them best of luck and please keep cheering for them they trying to achieve great things in the NA scene for you guys the fans.
When we recruited Juan for the 2nd time, we knew beforehand that his dream was joining a KeSPA team. I always saw this as a real possibility, and we are sad at ROOT that the day has come when Juanito goes after that dream, because it means he will no longer be a part of our team, however we are happy at the same time because as a friend that Juan is to all of us, we know this is what he wants and will continue to ROOT for him and his success.
Juanito has his ways, he's set his mind to make this happen and we hope that he can accomplish the goals he has for his career. He is a very authentic person, and even though he's a big pain in the ass at times, he is also more mature every day and is a dear friend to me and I only have good wishes for him. The doors will always be open to Juan at ROOT Gaming, unlike last time when we thought it was a mistake to let him in in the first place, this time we're glad we did and are willing to make the same mistake again in the future.
On a happier note, I am really happy to announce LeiYa (puCK) is coming back to ROOT Gaming. LeiYa was undergoing personal stuff and took a break to sort some things, but now she is back to ROOT and we are very happy to have her. LeiYa is one of the strongest and most creative Protosses in North America, and most importantly, I truly believe she has the potential to be the very best and compete at the highest level, something that I am sure she will achieve very soon. So welcome back home LeiYa!
There is more in the article which you should check out at root-gaming.com
*I'm not affiliated with root-gaming, just a fan*
EDIT: Spelling
I'm really glad that LeiYa is back, she's really great and I enjoy watching her stream in the wee hours of the night <3
Good luck to majOr, kitty, terran in joining with a KESPA team! Root 4 Root!
And on a more serious note, I'm fine with this. Major has really chilled out the past six months or so and has been a really good community figure. I hope his dream comes true and he can become a member of SKT.
Awww, I thought Juan found his team in ROOT. I'm worried that this will interfere with his career as this only contributes to his team hopping reputation, but seeing his dedication to joining a KeSPA team is incredible. Hope you achieve that dream.
Happy to see Leiya come back, the transgender stuff is no reason not to compete, she's just too good and would really like to see how she performs at events ever since she placed so high at that first MLG. Good for majOr too! Other pros have been talking about how he's good for a long time, and hopefully he gets more chances to show his stuff on a Kespa team. Root hwaiting!
Really hope Major gets to realise his dream of getting on a Kespa team. One of those players that just seems really dedicated at playing the game for the competitive side of things, and I for one applaud that attitude
On November 26 2012 12:39 Fionn wrote: Your move, Naniwa.
And on a more serious note, I'm fine with this. Major has really chilled out the past six months or so and has been a really good community figure. I hope his dream comes true and he can become a member of SKT.
On November 26 2012 12:39 Fionn wrote: Your move, Naniwa.
And on a more serious note, I'm fine with this. Major has really chilled out the past six months or so and has been a really good community figure. I hope his dream comes true and he can become a member of SKT.
I had a feeling he was going to try for that kespa opening (wasn't there a kespa team recruiting recently?). I had wondered if he would leave root to try as he has said quiet a few times that joining a kespa team was his dream.
On November 26 2012 12:39 Fionn wrote: Your move, Naniwa.
And on a more serious note, I'm fine with this. Major has really chilled out the past six months or so and has been a really good community figure. I hope his dream comes true and he can become a member of SKT.
context?
major and naniwa jump teams so many times, so now that major left a team again, its naniwa's turn to switch teams too? lol
I thought he would finally settle down, but congrats to him if he got an offer from a KESPA team. I'm sure a lot of people would accept the offer. Glad they seperated on good terms this time!
On November 26 2012 12:48 blade55555 wrote: I had a feeling he was going to try for that kespa opening (wasn't there a kespa team recruiting recently?). I had wondered if he would leave root to try as he has said quiet a few times that joining a kespa team was his dream.
I think SKT is looking for a Terran practice partner, and MajOr can take that role well. He has a great sense of the game and can definitely provide assistance to SKT in terms of advice and coaching.
I admire his desire to suceed, but joining a kespa team isnt going to magically make him good, especially considering even kespa teams practice sc2 on ladder alot.
I don't think majOr would leave ROOT until the deal with KeSPa was basically set in stone, so I can only assume he's confirmed to SKT1. In that case: Dude. majOr. Congratulations, seriously.
On November 26 2012 12:53 artosismermaid wrote: I admire his desire to suceed, but joining a kespa team isnt going to magically make him good, especially considering even kespa teams practice sc2 on ladder alot.
Have you ever watched his stream? The guy has amazing mechanics, his problem has been that he has never had a stable training environment(that I'm aware of).
This was a mutual parting for both involved and Catz even said that Major would always be welcomed. Catz knows what Major is capable of and thus lets him leave.
On November 26 2012 12:53 artosismermaid wrote: I admire his desire to suceed, but joining a kespa team isnt going to magically make him good, especially considering even kespa teams practice sc2 on ladder alot.
being on a Korean team and practicing in a Korean house would be an opportunity to get experience by playing with korean players, as well as the ability to ladder on the KR servers.
On November 26 2012 12:53 artosismermaid wrote: I admire his desire to suceed, but joining a kespa team isnt going to magically make him good, especially considering even kespa teams practice sc2 on ladder alot.
Have you ever watched his stream? The guy has amazing mechanics, his problem has been that he has never had a stable training environment(that I'm aware of).
Yeah, and not only that listening to him coach DeMuslim on his stream really astounded me on how sound his mentality and game sense actually is. I think he would do fine on a Kespa team, it already seems like he was fit for the Korean lifestyle of SC2.
Well who can blame him, he is a very good player and we should always chase our dreams. I wish him a lot of luck, he has the skill, he only needs the chance.
Do you guys remember the post where Major joined ROOT? It was full of tentative phrasing because Major is known for team-jumping. Here we are 3 months later, no real surprises here
On November 26 2012 13:06 creamyturtle wrote: Do you guys remember the post where Major joined ROOT? It was full of tentative phrasing because Major is known for team-jumping. Here we are 3 months later, no real surprises here
He's only leaving because he's following his dream to be a KeSPA player. It's quite admirable. If he joins SKT as a practice partner, he'll probably make a lot less money, be surrounded by less friends, and be under a much stricter schedule. He's never hidden the fact that his dream was to be on a KeSPA team, so there is probably no hard feelings between ROOT and Juan.
This is the opposite of a player leaving a team for the money.
I really hope Major gets to fulfill his dream. I was always a fan of his play but I really became a fan of HIM when he rejoined ROOT. It seems off but I remember reading how he thought his dream of playing for a Kespa team was unlikely. Then when I saw that SKT was looking for Terran practice partners I thought about Major. All the best to Major and I hope he makes it.
On November 26 2012 13:02 GTR wrote: SK Telecom T Juan.
Stop saying Major is a team hopper and listen what he said about it, he was on 3 teams guys. Lots of pros have the same maybe more. It really annoys me to hell.
On November 26 2012 13:06 creamyturtle wrote: Do you guys remember the post where Major joined ROOT? It was full of tentative phrasing because Major is known for team-jumping. Here we are 3 months later, no real surprises here
He's only leaving because he's following his dream to be a KeSPA player. It's quite admirable. If he joins SKT as a practice partner, he'll probably make a lot less money, be surrounded by less friends, and be under a much stricter schedule. He's never hidden the fact that his dream was to be on a KeSPA team, so there is probably no hard feelings between ROOT and Juan.
This is the opposite of a player leaving a team for the money.
i agree im actually very happy for major =) however ill miss that root tag in front of his name
I think the only issue with Major, as with most foreigners is that even shacking up with a Korean team due to linguistic barriers the real benefits that Korean players get may get lost in translation.
He'll improve for sure, if he gets to join a house full-time in Korea, but I've long felt that it's the discussions of strategies in-depth in houses that really tightens up the Koreans play. A combination of their peers, plus dedicated coaches makes a big difference and I wish foreign teams would pay more attention to the latter of these.
I gave Major shit before all the team jumping, but this time it seems like a legitimate move and everyone all around is content with whats going down. Best of luck Major
Major is the perfect player for one of these KESPA teams to pick up. He's a fantastic player, he believes in the KESPA training methods and won't shy away from whatever they ask of him, he's ready and willing to relocate to Korea, and his popularity within the foreign scene is at an all time high due to both rising results and a more mature personality he has shown as of late. And that last point is something the KESPA teams actually want right now, attention from the international audience. SKT1 or any of the other teams would be stupid not to grab him while they can IMO.
Normally I would make a basic sarcastic comment on how Major is anethma for teams, but ROOT seems to really have done wonders for him. The good guy that he shows personally has come out a lot more recently in public, which really makes me happy to see ^_^
Cant believe people are still making the whole 'har de hur major switching teams AGAIN, boys' posts. It was explicity stated in his rejoining root post that he would only ever leave for a chance to join a KeSPA team, and with the SKT1 post recently, there should be absolutely 0 surprise or criticism that hes chasing that dream.
On November 26 2012 12:39 Fionn wrote: Your move, Naniwa.
And on a more serious note, I'm fine with this. Major has really chilled out the past six months or so and has been a really good community figure. I hope his dream comes true and he can become a member of SKT.
this made me Lawl really hard lol
but yea good luck to you juan in trying to join a kespa team
On November 26 2012 12:39 Fionn wrote: Your move, Naniwa.
And on a more serious note, I'm fine with this. Major has really chilled out the past six months or so and has been a really good community figure. I hope his dream comes true and he can become a member of SKT.
I've just read the first page, I'm really hoping to read more of this and just a few "lolomg i saw this coming" shitty posts
This is actually a noble decision by Juanito, a move by pure passion. He could be paid less, he would training be with completely different people (koreans). It could be less relaxing but he chose to continue going that path anyway.
On November 26 2012 15:23 Megakenny wrote: Puck is a girl?
Yes, same boat as Scarlett, I believe (don't quote me, Im not 100% sure)
But at the very least she changed her name to LeiYa with the reveal of her real gender apparently. From what I gathered. She is incredible, she also streams quite often. Also seeing MajOr on a Kespa team would be wonderful GL to both,
On November 26 2012 12:39 Fionn wrote: Your move, Naniwa.
And on a more serious note, I'm fine with this. Major has really chilled out the past six months or so and has been a really good community figure. I hope his dream comes true and he can become a member of SKT.
no way, SKT dont need someone like him, besides Boxer will never allow it
Would be awesome for him to be on a kespa team but if I was him I would have been a little bit longer with Root since I think his skills are not high engough yet
It would be good to add a link to the thread from when Major joined ROOT.
On August 07 2012 11:56 ROOTCatZ wrote: As soon as we remade ROOT, Juan started asking to join, I told him no about in about 5 different ocassions. He insisted, I consulted with the team, didn’t go in his favor. Not because we didn’t like him, but because of our past experience. He asked again, and again, and again. I realized he was serious, he came clean and told me beforehand “I really want to join, but to be completely clear I would like the opportunity to leave if I had the chance to join a KeSPA team, and for no other reason” I was thinking, that if anything he had matured and he was transparent with his intentions, but that wasn’t enough to join ROOT as we want our members to be as commited as possible to the team and its members. A few weeks passed and Juan asked again, this time he said “the KeSPA team.. its not gonna happen, I want to join ROOT and I want to join to stay” Juan was ready to sign with us.
Happy that he is pursuing his dreams, however I doubt he knows what he is going in to, the KeSPA teams are known to be tough to newcomers on the team, especially if he enters as a practice partner.
Memories of what Draco / Ret experienced is popping up
Root seems more like a community team rather than progaming team (except Vibe), and it seems that Major wants to have really good practice environment rather than casual one.
I think some people are underestimating the amount of preparation, coaching and planning a kespa team set up can provide someone like Major who already has the mechanics of koreans.
If he gets a move, and the team supports him like one of their own, he could be the best foreigner terran. Hes already one of the best foreigner terrans now though.
On November 26 2012 18:18 poorcloud wrote: I think some people are underestimating the amount of preparation, coaching and planning a kespa team set up can provide someone like Major who already has the mechanics of koreans.
If he gets a move, and the team supports him like one of their own, he could be the best foreigner terran. Hes already one of the best foreigner terrans now though.
One could make a case for Thorzain, but Major is really really close.
On November 26 2012 15:23 Megakenny wrote: Puck is a girl?
Yes, same boat as Scarlett, I believe (don't quote me, Im not 100% sure)
But at the very least she changed her name to LeiYa with the reveal of her real gender apparently. From what I gathered. She is incredible, she also streams quite often. Also seeing MajOr on a Kespa team would be wonderful GL to both,
On November 26 2012 15:23 Megakenny wrote: Puck is a girl?
Yes, same boat as Scarlett, I believe (don't quote me, Im not 100% sure)
But at the very least she changed her name to LeiYa with the reveal of her real gender apparently. From what I gathered. She is incredible, she also streams quite often. Also seeing MajOr on a Kespa team would be wonderful GL to both,
umm, why is "she" a dude? @_@
They are both transgender. They are women born male.
On November 26 2012 15:34 bGr.MetHiX wrote: leiya is at a top50 gm NA level with 50.5% winrate so its no big deal for him rejoining ROOT.im not expecting much of him anyway...
but losing majOr is a big deal,he's been the most solid western terran imho...practicing in korea has sure paid off for him.
it's pretty clear you're out of the loop on a LOT of stuff. 1. female. 2. at LEAST top 50. 3. amazing with warp prisms. but i take it you don't watch her play. otherwise you would realize leiya is very underrated as a player, especially considering recent life events.
4. ROOT isn't obsessed with their tournament lineup. they're focused on losing major as a close friend, not as a tournament asset. that's what makes the team so likable and awesome. if there's one thing ROOT gave major, it was an improved character.
On November 26 2012 12:39 Fionn wrote: Your move, Naniwa.
And on a more serious note, I'm fine with this. Major has really chilled out the past six months or so and has been a really good community figure. I hope his dream comes true and he can become a member of SKT.
I love how so many people didn't get this joke...
Good luck Major! I'm not the biggest fan but it'll be cool to see if you get a chance on a Kespa squad.
On November 26 2012 18:18 poorcloud wrote: I think some people are underestimating the amount of preparation, coaching and planning a kespa team set up can provide someone like Major who already has the mechanics of koreans.
If he gets a move, and the team supports him like one of their own, he could be the best foreigner terran. Hes already one of the best foreigner terrans now though.
One could make a case for Thorzain, but Major is really really close.
On November 26 2012 12:40 LiquidFahq wrote: Happy to see Leiya come back, the transgender stuff is no reason not to compete
Well all the emotional pressure and medical transitioning can be a bit too much; hopefully she could sort everything out that she needed for now and she'll be able to handle them well.
Wow wait so puck is a dude who wants to be a chick, went away to switch gender surgery? Really looked like a guy wtf
And Scarlett is actually a dude too? Why is it marked as "the most successful female sc2" when there's a penis hanging between her/his/it's legs.
Jesus
I mean it's not fair to real girls that some husky voiced tranny is taking their crown, in fact it's worse because it further pushes women out if the only competitive "chicks" used to be guys/still are but won't admit it
On November 26 2012 18:18 poorcloud wrote: I think some people are underestimating the amount of preparation, coaching and planning a kespa team set up can provide someone like Major who already has the mechanics of koreans.
If he gets a move, and the team supports him like one of their own, he could be the best foreigner terran. Hes already one of the best foreigner terrans now though.
One could make a case for Thorzain, but Major is really really close.
He's definitely a close number 2 foreign Terran.
he said he's already ONE of the best not the best atm...
anyways gl to major...shows how dedicated and passionate he is about this game
On November 26 2012 19:08 GeNeSiDe wrote: Wow wait so puck is a dude who wants to be a chick, went away to switch gender surgery? Really looked like a guy wtf
And Scarlett is actually a dude too? Why is it marked as "the most successful female sc2" when there's a penis hanging between her/his/it's legs.
Jesus
I mean it's not fair to real girls that some husky voiced tranny is taking their crown, in fact it's worse because it further pushes women out if the only competitive "chicks" used to be guys/still are but won't admit it
On November 26 2012 19:08 GeNeSiDe wrote: Wow wait so puck is a dude who wants to be a chick, went away to switch gender surgery? Really looked like a guy wtf
And Scarlett is actually a dude too? Why is it marked as "the most successful female sc2" when there's a penis hanging between her/his/it's legs.
Jesus
I mean it's not fair to real girls that some husky voiced tranny is taking their crown, in fact it's worse because it further pushes women out if the only competitive "chicks" used to be guys/still are but won't admit it
-.- seriously?
I have a dick between my legs which means I can't turn up to women's sports. I can't break the women's 100m because I'm a man and women are slower, even if I was convinced I was a woman. Your not a woman or a man because you DECIDE; it's a permanent biological condition and plastic surgery does not address this. So yeah, holding up Scarlett as the women's role model when she is biologically a man is abit silly no?
On November 26 2012 19:22 thepuppyassassin wrote: Don't really care what team Major is on as long as he's on SOTG!!! wooot (im trying to bring it back)
On November 26 2012 19:08 GeNeSiDe wrote: Wow wait so puck is a dude who wants to be a chick, went away to switch gender surgery? Really looked like a guy wtf
And Scarlett is actually a dude too? Why is it marked as "the most successful female sc2" when there's a penis hanging between her/his/it's legs.
Jesus
I mean it's not fair to real girls that some husky voiced tranny is taking their crown, in fact it's worse because it further pushes women out if the only competitive "chicks" used to be guys/still are but won't admit it
On November 26 2012 12:39 Fionn wrote: Your move, Naniwa.
And on a more serious note, I'm fine with this. Major has really chilled out the past six months or so and has been a really good community figure. I hope his dream comes true and he can become a member of SKT.
On November 26 2012 19:08 GeNeSiDe wrote: Wow wait so puck is a dude who wants to be a chick, went away to switch gender surgery? Really looked like a guy wtf
And Scarlett is actually a dude too? Why is it marked as "the most successful female sc2" when there's a penis hanging between her/his/it's legs.
Jesus
I mean it's not fair to real girls that some husky voiced tranny is taking their crown, in fact it's worse because it further pushes women out if the only competitive "chicks" used to be guys/still are but won't admit it
-.- seriously?
I have a dick between my legs which means I can't turn up to women's sports. I can't break the women's 100m because I'm a man and women are slower, even if I was convinced I was a woman. Your not a woman or a man because you DECIDE; it's a permanent biological condition and plastic surgery does not address this. So yeah, holding up Scarlett as the women's role model when she is biologically a man is abit silly no?
as far as i'm concerned you're a dick entirely. you're someone who is so clearly deluded with the idea that you are what you look like. read up on kleinfelter's. read about turner's. read about SRY translocation. read about androgen insensitivity. then fucking tell us if you still think gender is as black and white as you make it out to be. you know next to nothing about either of these people and yet you just assume they're deciding what they want to be.
On November 26 2012 19:08 GeNeSiDe wrote: Wow wait so puck is a dude who wants to be a chick, went away to switch gender surgery? Really looked like a guy wtf
And Scarlett is actually a dude too? Why is it marked as "the most successful female sc2" when there's a penis hanging between her/his/it's legs.
Jesus
I mean it's not fair to real girls that some husky voiced tranny is taking their crown, in fact it's worse because it further pushes women out if the only competitive "chicks" used to be guys/still are but won't admit it
-.- seriously?
I have a dick between my legs which means I can't turn up to women's sports. I can't break the women's 100m because I'm a man and women are slower, even if I was convinced I was a woman. Your not a woman or a man because you DECIDE; it's a permanent biological condition and plastic surgery does not address this. So yeah, holding up Scarlett as the women's role model when she is biologically a man is abit silly no?
Really?
There is a massive, massive difference between SEX and GENDER. Gender is a social construct. Sex is a biological fact. Learn to distinguish between MAN and MALE and WOMAN and FEMALE.
And you could do with a fair bit of growing up too.
On November 26 2012 19:08 GeNeSiDe wrote: Wow wait so puck is a dude who wants to be a chick, went away to switch gender surgery? Really looked like a guy wtf
And Scarlett is actually a dude too? Why is it marked as "the most successful female sc2" when there's a penis hanging between her/his/it's legs.
Jesus
I mean it's not fair to real girls that some husky voiced tranny is taking their crown, in fact it's worse because it further pushes women out if the only competitive "chicks" used to be guys/still are but won't admit it
-.- seriously?
I have a dick between my legs which means I can't turn up to women's sports. I can't break the women's 100m because I'm a man and women are slower, even if I was convinced I was a woman. Your not a woman or a man because you DECIDE; it's a permanent biological condition and plastic surgery does not address this. So yeah, holding up Scarlett as the women's role model when she is biologically a man is abit silly no?
as far as i'm concerned you're a dick entirely. no fucking point in arguing with someone who is so clearly deluded with the idea that you are what you look like. read up on kleinfelter's. read about turner's. read about SRY translocation. read about androgen insensitivity. then fucking tell us if you still think gender is as black and white as you make it out to be. you know next to nothing about either of these people and yet you just assume they're deciding what they want to be.
I'm guessing there are no mods on at the moment, 'cause he'd have been warned/banned for his first post alone.
It's all good if people switch genders, and it's great that TL is so accepting. But I sincerely hope that people don't overestimate, hype up, or go wild about the transgender thing. It's what happened with Scarlett - she's great, don't get me wrong, but from the very start when she was an obscure random name that beat a Korean, she was incredibly over-hyped (like when she got knocked out of the tournament I checked TL and there was already a 8 page fan club).
Just think it's disingenuous to market yourself, or even to play along with, the image that you're a girl gamer when there's obviously something more under the surface. Nothing against transgenders, in fact I would probably applaud the honest transgender who sets the record straight off the mark for being open about it.
On November 26 2012 19:44 Xpace wrote: It's all good if people switch genders, and it's great that TL is so accepting. But I sincerely hope that people don't overestimate, hype up, or go wild about the transgender thing. It's what happened with Scarlett - she's great, don't get me wrong, but from the very start when she was an obscure random name that beat a Korean, she was incredibly over-hyped (like when she got knocked out of the tournament I checked TL and there was already a 8 page fan club).
First the "overhype" came from a girl beating a Korean, then later all the amount of supportive comments she received was especially when people saw all the backlash when she came out, the people then realising that she needs to be supported when there are so many haters.
Sure, "overhype" is bad, but acceptance and support (even through just spreading awareness - even if it will seem like "overhyping") is really necessary for trans people. All my respect to Scarlett and LeiYa for being brave enough to be public figures as openly trans; that takes an unbelievable amount of courage.
This is probably the first time where a team change by major isn't collectively frowned upon, and rightfully so. Juan identified himself as a really cool guy in the past 6 months or so. GL!
SKT1 will forever be home of great terrans.SKT1 Major coming up. Im so pumped for the rumoured December 8 start of the Proleague.I miss Proleague. SKT1 fighting!!! Avenge CJ Entus for taking the 1st hybrid proleague victory.Im also looking forwar for a Rain vs Flash match. i havent seen both of them play against.Oh Bisu!! Come on Bisu... you could somehow takeover Rain's brilliance on SC2. I really wonder how in the hell Rain fully grasp the game when they were just transitioning. Rain brought SKT1's name to the world.And I hope Bisu can. LOL
On November 26 2012 19:56 JustPassingBy wrote: gl to major. just hoping that, if he manages to join a Kespa team, he won't stop participating in shows like SotG.
I just wanted to add a question: Why did Juan leave Root in order to pursue his dream, when Root knew about his goals and were okay with them in the first place? Couldn't he have done that while staying a Root team member? Or are there already some actual results on his road that require him to leave his team?
On November 26 2012 19:08 GeNeSiDe wrote: Wow wait so puck is a dude who wants to be a chick, went away to switch gender surgery? Really looked like a guy wtf
And Scarlett is actually a dude too? Why is it marked as "the most successful female sc2" when there's a penis hanging between her/his/it's legs.
Jesus
I mean it's not fair to real girls that some husky voiced tranny is taking their crown, in fact it's worse because it further pushes women out if the only competitive "chicks" used to be guys/still are but won't admit it
-.- seriously?
I have a dick between my legs which means I can't turn up to women's sports. I can't break the women's 100m because I'm a man and women are slower, even if I was convinced I was a woman. Your not a woman or a man because you DECIDE; it's a permanent biological condition and plastic surgery does not address this. So yeah, holding up Scarlett as the women's role model when she is biologically a man is abit silly no?
Really?
There is a massive, massive difference between SEX and GENDER. Gender is a social construct. Sex is a biological fact. Learn to distinguish between MAN and MALE and WOMAN and FEMALE.
And you could do with a fair bit of growing up too.
... according to sociology or so called "social science". It has not bearing as a real field of science according to many.
On November 26 2012 12:39 Fionn wrote: Your move, Naniwa.
And on a more serious note, I'm fine with this. Major has really chilled out the past six months or so and has been a really good community figure. I hope his dream comes true and he can become a member of SKT.
context?
major and naniwa jump teams so many times, so now that major left a team again, its naniwa's turn to switch teams too? lol
On November 26 2012 12:39 Fionn wrote: Your move, Naniwa.
And on a more serious note, I'm fine with this. Major has really chilled out the past six months or so and has been a really good community figure. I hope his dream comes true and he can become a member of SKT.
context?
major and naniwa jump teams so many times, so now that major left a team again, its naniwa's turn to switch teams too? lol
Is Naniwa currently even on a team?
He is teamless, but he has a personal sponsorship from Mionix. So he's in the same situation as Violet.
On November 26 2012 12:39 Fionn wrote: Your move, Naniwa.
And on a more serious note, I'm fine with this. Major has really chilled out the past six months or so and has been a really good community figure. I hope his dream comes true and he can become a member of SKT.
context?
major and naniwa jump teams so many times, so now that major left a team again, its naniwa's turn to switch teams too? lol
Is Naniwa currently even on a team?
He is teamless, but he has a personal sponsorship from Mionix. So he's in the same situation as Violet.
Not exactly, Violet gets a salary. Naniwa stated in a post here on TL Mionix only covers his travel costs.
On November 26 2012 19:08 GeNeSiDe wrote: Wow wait so puck is a dude who wants to be a chick, went away to switch gender surgery? Really looked like a guy wtf
And Scarlett is actually a dude too? Why is it marked as "the most successful female sc2" when there's a penis hanging between her/his/it's legs.
Jesus
I mean it's not fair to real girls that some husky voiced tranny is taking their crown, in fact it's worse because it further pushes women out if the only competitive "chicks" used to be guys/still are but won't admit it
-.- seriously?
I have a dick between my legs which means I can't turn up to women's sports. I can't break the women's 100m because I'm a man and women are slower, even if I was convinced I was a woman. Your not a woman or a man because you DECIDE; it's a permanent biological condition and plastic surgery does not address this. So yeah, holding up Scarlett as the women's role model when she is biologically a man is abit silly no?
as far as i'm concerned you're a dick entirely. no fucking point in arguing with someone who is so clearly deluded with the idea that you are what you look like. read up on kleinfelter's. read about turner's. read about SRY translocation. read about androgen insensitivity. then fucking tell us if you still think gender is as black and white as you make it out to be. you know next to nothing about either of these people and yet you just assume they're deciding what they want to be.
I'm guessing there are no mods on at the moment, 'cause he'd have been warned/banned for his first post alone.
It's all good if people switch genders, and it's great that TL is so accepting. But I sincerely hope that people don't overestimate, hype up, or go wild about the transgender thing. It's what happened with Scarlett - she's great, don't get me wrong, but from the very start when she was an obscure random name that beat a Korean, she was incredibly over-hyped (like when she got knocked out of the tournament I checked TL and there was already a 8 page fan club).
still dont get it why they ban him fckin cencorship, he wasnt offending just telling his opinion .. i have no problem with transgenders but i still get his point, if hussein bolt would change sex and breaks all female running records is it fair/legit??
Why does everyone keep saying that Juan is joining SKT1? I know they're recruiting practice partners, but has Juan stated that he wanted to apply or something?
On November 26 2012 23:51 MonDeW wrote: Why does everyone keep saying that Juan is joining SKT1? I know they're recruiting practice partners, but has Juan stated that he wanted to apply or something?
I don't think so, but it all falls into place. Majors dream is to join a Kespa team, SKT1 announces that they are recruiting Terran practice partners, Major leaves ROOT a few days later.
And here everyone was joking that major would jump at the opportunity when SKT1 was looking for practice partners. I'm not sure why major wants to join a kespa team. I mean, I'm pretty sure the non-big name players aren't salaried, they have to practice ridiculous hours and generally don't have good working conditions.
On November 26 2012 19:08 GeNeSiDe wrote: Wow wait so puck is a dude who wants to be a chick, went away to switch gender surgery? Really looked like a guy wtf
And Scarlett is actually a dude too? Why is it marked as "the most successful female sc2" when there's a penis hanging between her/his/it's legs.
Jesus
I mean it's not fair to real girls that some husky voiced tranny is taking their crown, in fact it's worse because it further pushes women out if the only competitive "chicks" used to be guys/still are but won't admit it
-.- seriously?
I have a dick between my legs which means I can't turn up to women's sports. I can't break the women's 100m because I'm a man and women are slower, even if I was convinced I was a woman. Your not a woman or a man because you DECIDE; it's a permanent biological condition and plastic surgery does not address this. So yeah, holding up Scarlett as the women's role model when she is biologically a man is abit silly no?
as far as i'm concerned you're a dick entirely. no fucking point in arguing with someone who is so clearly deluded with the idea that you are what you look like. read up on kleinfelter's. read about turner's. read about SRY translocation. read about androgen insensitivity. then fucking tell us if you still think gender is as black and white as you make it out to be. you know next to nothing about either of these people and yet you just assume they're deciding what they want to be.
I'm guessing there are no mods on at the moment, 'cause he'd have been warned/banned for his first post alone.
It's all good if people switch genders, and it's great that TL is so accepting. But I sincerely hope that people don't overestimate, hype up, or go wild about the transgender thing. It's what happened with Scarlett - she's great, don't get me wrong, but from the very start when she was an obscure random name that beat a Korean, she was incredibly over-hyped (like when she got knocked out of the tournament I checked TL and there was already a 8 page fan club).
still dont get it why they ban him fckin cencorship, he wasnt offending just telling his opinion .. i have no problem with transgenders but i still get his point, if hussein bolt would change sex and breaks all female running records is it fair/legit??
He wasn't banned for this one post. He had a history of terrible posts and this one didn't help him. There would have been far less obnoxious ways to get a similar point across.
Starcraft is also different from running in that there are no obvious benefits to either gender. The male dominance is caused by mainly social circumstances. If someone identifies themselfs as a woman there are no reason they shouldn't be playing tournaments for women.
On November 26 2012 19:08 GeNeSiDe wrote: Wow wait so puck is a dude who wants to be a chick, went away to switch gender surgery? Really looked like a guy wtf
And Scarlett is actually a dude too? Why is it marked as "the most successful female sc2" when there's a penis hanging between her/his/it's legs.
Jesus
I mean it's not fair to real girls that some husky voiced tranny is taking their crown, in fact it's worse because it further pushes women out if the only competitive "chicks" used to be guys/still are but won't admit it
-.- seriously?
I have a dick between my legs which means I can't turn up to women's sports. I can't break the women's 100m because I'm a man and women are slower, even if I was convinced I was a woman. Your not a woman or a man because you DECIDE; it's a permanent biological condition and plastic surgery does not address this. So yeah, holding up Scarlett as the women's role model when she is biologically a man is abit silly no?
as far as i'm concerned you're a dick entirely. no fucking point in arguing with someone who is so clearly deluded with the idea that you are what you look like. read up on kleinfelter's. read about turner's. read about SRY translocation. read about androgen insensitivity. then fucking tell us if you still think gender is as black and white as you make it out to be. you know next to nothing about either of these people and yet you just assume they're deciding what they want to be.
I'm guessing there are no mods on at the moment, 'cause he'd have been warned/banned for his first post alone.
It's all good if people switch genders, and it's great that TL is so accepting. But I sincerely hope that people don't overestimate, hype up, or go wild about the transgender thing. It's what happened with Scarlett - she's great, don't get me wrong, but from the very start when she was an obscure random name that beat a Korean, she was incredibly over-hyped (like when she got knocked out of the tournament I checked TL and there was already a 8 page fan club).
still dont get it why they ban him fckin cencorship, he wasnt offending just telling his opinion .. i have no problem with transgenders but i still get his point, if hussein bolt would change sex and breaks all female running records is it fair/legit??
He wasn't banned for this one post. He had a history of terrible posts and this one didn't help him. There would have been far less obnoxious ways to get a similar point across.
Starcraft is also different from running in that there are no obvious benefits to either gender. The male dominance is caused by mainly social circumstances. If someone identifies themselfs as a woman there are no reason they shouldn't be playing tournaments for women.
Technically only when they underwent sex-altering procedures.
Either way, who still cares about who is in what clan? This is not a team game anyway.
Not trying to be rude but it seems a bit delusional to think that a kespa team would want a mid tier foreigner with a pretty bad reputation tbh, who has no real chance of doing anything significant in the Korean scene. There's simply no reason any kespa team would want Major... if they go after any foreigner it will be a top tier one with a decent reputation. Goodluck though.
On November 27 2012 01:28 darkest44 wrote: Not trying to be rude but it seems a bit delusional to think that a kespa team would want a mid tier foreigner with a pretty bad reputation tbh, who has no real chance of doing anything significant in the Korean scene. There's simply no reason any kespa team would want Major... if they go after any foreigner it will be a top tier one with a decent reputation. Goodluck though.
On November 27 2012 01:28 darkest44 wrote: Not trying to be rude but it seems a bit delusional to think that a kespa team would want a mid tier foreigner with a pretty bad reputation tbh, who has no real chance of doing anything significant in the Korean scene. There's simply no reason any kespa team would want Major... if they go after any foreigner it will be a top tier one with a decent reputation. Goodluck though.
GL to major.. he is a very, VERY strong terran and a great person at heart.. and the fact that he came from MEXICO to be a big name in the US at least within the gaming community is a great accomplishment .. it takes a lot of skill and balls to do this, that's for sure
and to puck, i was never really a fan, but good luck to you as well
On November 27 2012 01:28 darkest44 wrote: Not trying to be rude but it seems a bit delusional to think that a kespa team would want a mid tier foreigner with a pretty bad reputation tbh, who has no real chance of doing anything significant in the Korean scene. There's simply no reason any kespa team would want Major... if they go after any foreigner it will be a top tier one with a decent reputation. Goodluck though.
T1 is looking for a practice partner, not a proleague starter or an ace player. It's probably pretty hard to find someone on the same or higher level than Major who would be interested in that "job", even among Koreans.
I also have no idea what reputation you assume to be relevant here, but when it comes to work ethic and commitment to the game, Major ranks pretty highly among the foreigners, and probably better than a number of current or former top foreigners. In terms of personality, he seems to get along well with Koreans too (TSL house, GosI etc) and was already a practice partner for Woongjin (iirc) in the past.
I think majOr would be a great practice partner for SKT, if they do a little bit of research on him or watch VODs of his stream, they'll understand pretty quickly that this guy is gosu, just lacking motivation. If he joins a kespa team and they show him true discipline, he could become like INSANELY good.
Can Leiya be featured now? I don't understand she gets from 250 to 300 viewers not being featured and she is on root. I think she should be featured... O.O
majOr has been as high as rank1 gm on kr ladder as far as i know (once or twice) so no need for you pros to judge him on his skill.he had bad temper and i disliked him for that,but nowadays i enjoy his play and manner.
On November 26 2012 13:46 imJealous wrote: Major is the perfect player for one of these KESPA teams to pick up. He's a fantastic player, he believes in the KESPA training methods and won't shy away from whatever they ask of him, he's ready and willing to relocate to Korea, and his popularity within the foreign scene is at an all time high due to both rising results and a more mature personality he has shown as of late. And that last point is something the KESPA teams actually want right now, attention from the international audience. SKT1 or any of the other teams would be stupid not to grab him while they can IMO.
Well put.
Major just seems to have so much talent (especially in tvz); I can't wait to see how good he'll become if he keeps up with a KESPA's team practice schedule.
On November 27 2012 01:28 darkest44 wrote: Not trying to be rude but it seems a bit delusional to think that a kespa team would want a mid tier foreigner with a pretty bad reputation tbh, who has no real chance of doing anything significant in the Korean scene. There's simply no reason any kespa team would want Major... if they go after any foreigner it will be a top tier one with a decent reputation. Goodluck though.
T1 is looking for a practice partner, not a proleague starter or an ace player. It's probably pretty hard to find someone on the same or higher level than Major who would be interested in that "job", even among Koreans.
I also have no idea what reputation you assume to be relevant here, but when it comes to work ethic and commitment to the game, Major ranks pretty highly among the foreigners, and probably better than a number of current or former top foreigners. In terms of personality, he seems to get along well with Koreans too (TSL house, GosI etc) and was already a practice partner for Woongjin (iirc) in the past.
This nails the whole situation, couldn't have said it better myself.
On November 27 2012 01:28 darkest44 wrote: Not trying to be rude but it seems a bit delusional to think that a kespa team would want a mid tier foreigner with a pretty bad reputation tbh, who has no real chance of doing anything significant in the Korean scene. There's simply no reason any kespa team would want Major... if they go after any foreigner it will be a top tier one with a decent reputation. Goodluck though.
T1 is looking for a practice partner, not a proleague starter or an ace player. It's probably pretty hard to find someone on the same or higher level than Major who would be interested in that "job", even among Koreans.
I also have no idea what reputation you assume to be relevant here, but when it comes to work ethic and commitment to the game, Major ranks pretty highly among the foreigners, and probably better than a number of current or former top foreigners. In terms of personality, he seems to get along well with Koreans too (TSL house, GosI etc) and was already a practice partner for Woongjin (iirc) in the past.
The TSL guys really seemed to like him a lot too. Knowing that Major and Hyun started to play a lot together right before Hyun really broke out should be a good indicator of what Major is like as a practice partner.
I really admire his motivation, leaving a team of friends where he is the star to be a simple practice partner for a top team. I wish Major the best of luck and I hope we see him playing at an even higher level soon.
On November 26 2012 19:08 GeNeSiDe wrote: Wow wait so puck is a dude who wants to be a chick, went away to switch gender surgery? Really looked like a guy wtf
And Scarlett is actually a dude too? Why is it marked as "the most successful female sc2" when there's a penis hanging between her/his/it's legs.
Jesus
I mean it's not fair to real girls that some husky voiced tranny is taking their crown, in fact it's worse because it further pushes women out if the only competitive "chicks" used to be guys/still are but won't admit it
-.- seriously?
I have a dick between my legs which means I can't turn up to women's sports. I can't break the women's 100m because I'm a man and women are slower, even if I was convinced I was a woman. Your not a woman or a man because you DECIDE; it's a permanent biological condition and plastic surgery does not address this. So yeah, holding up Scarlett as the women's role model when she is biologically a man is abit silly no?
as far as i'm concerned you're a dick entirely. no fucking point in arguing with someone who is so clearly deluded with the idea that you are what you look like. read up on kleinfelter's. read about turner's. read about SRY translocation. read about androgen insensitivity. then fucking tell us if you still think gender is as black and white as you make it out to be. you know next to nothing about either of these people and yet you just assume they're deciding what they want to be.
I'm guessing there are no mods on at the moment, 'cause he'd have been warned/banned for his first post alone.
It's all good if people switch genders, and it's great that TL is so accepting. But I sincerely hope that people don't overestimate, hype up, or go wild about the transgender thing. It's what happened with Scarlett - she's great, don't get me wrong, but from the very start when she was an obscure random name that beat a Korean, she was incredibly over-hyped (like when she got knocked out of the tournament I checked TL and there was already a 8 page fan club).
still dont get it why they ban him fckin cencorship, he wasnt offending just telling his opinion .. i have no problem with transgenders but i still get his point, if hussein bolt would change sex and breaks all female running records is it fair/legit??
You forgot the crown rule of TL is; be nice, be safe, and avoid saying anything controversial in fear of the ban hammer as older men fear god; can be a mighty tool to avoid trolling but when freedom of expression has to be sacrificed in the name of peace and equality, how much do you value that peace and equality, knowing that it is only bestowed upon you by those who see you not as the person you are but simply a IP address and viewership number to be crushed like a bug if need be...
Agreed, the fundamental point here to drive home is that pretty much any coverage of Scarlett has been on the lines of "this girl rocks the world, taking down all these men" etc etc...
I'm sorry but the first thing that appeared when she joined Eclypsia was how it was awesome it was to have a successful woman pro-gamer who had a track record of sticking it to Koreans and that's how I've thought of her until now; I'm sorry but I feel so cheated having cheered her on all these times, telling people how PROUD I was that women were finally breaking through in SC and not just a side-game joke like SlayersEve vs ST-Aprodite, only to find out that the woman I was cheering on is a man in the process/who has become a woman?
I'm sorry but this is a blatant manipulation of the psyche of the Starcraft community, because if Scarlett shows up BEING HER/HIS/IT's self and we don't get this "women can do it too" PR campaign there's nothing wrong, I had a girl in school who wanted to be a boy, changed her name and got the surgery as an adult, she(he) is cool now. I understand this wasn't her fault, she deserves the attention for her results and I'm sure everyone was just as confused about this, fair play. However it would be incredibly daft, unfair and problematic if either LeiYa or Scarlett are shone as the beacon of women gamers(I know LeiYa won't be as she was known as PuCK for ages now and was known as a man) when I'll go out on a limb and say that any female gamer's would not look to these two as their predecessors/idols, because at the end of the day, beyond all the 21st century, you can be who you want to be bollocks, these two WERE men, and may technically still be(I guess would make for the best kind of gay friend?)
; we as a community need to be very careful about idolizing/encouraging such intimate details about the lives of our stars, adding transgenders to the list of popular fringe personalities in the Starcraft community is IMO only going to keep us at the fringe of society, atleast while the community has so much dirty underwear floating around the internet(this being not the worst but maybe the oddest?). Allthough I understand transgender as a personal choice I think it begs the question if it is a personal issue why does it have any place being a well-known and accepted fact in the community?
On November 26 2012 19:08 GeNeSiDe wrote: Wow wait so puck is a dude who wants to be a chick, went away to switch gender surgery? Really looked like a guy wtf
And Scarlett is actually a dude too? Why is it marked as "the most successful female sc2" when there's a penis hanging between her/his/it's legs.
Jesus
I mean it's not fair to real girls that some husky voiced tranny is taking their crown, in fact it's worse because it further pushes women out if the only competitive "chicks" used to be guys/still are but won't admit it
-.- seriously?
I have a dick between my legs which means I can't turn up to women's sports. I can't break the women's 100m because I'm a man and women are slower, even if I was convinced I was a woman. Your not a woman or a man because you DECIDE; it's a permanent biological condition and plastic surgery does not address this. So yeah, holding up Scarlett as the women's role model when she is biologically a man is abit silly no?
as far as i'm concerned you're a dick entirely. no fucking point in arguing with someone who is so clearly deluded with the idea that you are what you look like. read up on kleinfelter's. read about turner's. read about SRY translocation. read about androgen insensitivity. then fucking tell us if you still think gender is as black and white as you make it out to be. you know next to nothing about either of these people and yet you just assume they're deciding what they want to be.
I'm guessing there are no mods on at the moment, 'cause he'd have been warned/banned for his first post alone.
It's all good if people switch genders, and it's great that TL is so accepting. But I sincerely hope that people don't overestimate, hype up, or go wild about the transgender thing. It's what happened with Scarlett - she's great, don't get me wrong, but from the very start when she was an obscure random name that beat a Korean, she was incredibly over-hyped (like when she got knocked out of the tournament I checked TL and there was already a 8 page fan club).
still dont get it why they ban him fckin cencorship, he wasnt offending just telling his opinion .. i have no problem with transgenders but i still get his point, if hussein bolt would change sex and breaks all female running records is it fair/legit??
You forgot the crown rule of TL is; be nice, be safe, and avoid saying anything controversial in fear of the ban hammer as older men fear god; can be a mighty tool to avoid trolling but when freedom of expression has to be sacrificed in the name of peace and equality, how much do you value that peace and equality, knowing that it is only bestowed upon you by those who see you not as the person you are but simply a IP address and viewership number to be crushed like a bug if need be...
Agreed, the fundamental point here to drive home is that pretty much any coverage of Scarlett has been on the lines of "this girl rocks the world, taking down all these men" etc etc...
I'm sorry but the first thing that appeared when she joined Eclypsia was how it was awesome it was to have a successful woman pro-gamer who had a track record of sticking it to Koreans and that's how I've thought of her until now; I'm sorry but I feel so cheated having cheered her on all these times, telling people how PROUD I was that women were finally breaking through in SC and not just a side-game joke like SlayersEve vs ST-Aprodite, only to find out that the woman I was cheering on is a man in the process/who has become a woman?
I'm sorry but this is a blatant manipulation of the psyche of the Starcraft community, because if Scarlett shows up BEING HER/HIS/IT's self and we don't get this "women can do it too" PR campaign there's nothing wrong, I had a girl in school who wanted to be a boy, changed her name and got the surgery as an adult, she(he) is cool now. I understand this wasn't her fault, she deserves the attention for her results and I'm sure everyone was just as confused about this, fair play. However it would be incredibly daft, unfair and problematic if either LeiYa or Scarlett are shone as the beacon of women gamers(I know LeiYa won't be as she was known as PuCK for ages now and was known as a man) when I'll go out on a limb and say that any female gamer's would not look to these two as their predecessors/idols, because at the end of the day, beyond all the 21st century, you can be who you want to be bollocks, these two WERE men, and may technically still be(I guess would make for the best kind of gay friend?)
I'm going to refute my own advice and risk the banhammer by saying this; we as a community need to be very careful about idolizing/encouraging such intimate details about the lives of our stars, adding transgenders to the list of popular fringe personalities in the Starcraft community is IMO only going to keep us at the fringe of society, atleast while the community has so much dirty underwear floating around the internet(this being not the worst but maybe the oddest?). Although I understand transgender as a personal choice I think it begs the question if it is a personal issue why does it have any place being a well-known and accepted fact in the community?
I don't exactly get how this "manipulation of the psyche of the Starcraft community" transpired, because if I remember correctly, Scarlett made a name for herself by playing in the IPL 4 open bracket and during the same event, if not within minutes of her video interview, someone on reddit posted claims about her being a transgender (mostly because of the adam's apple that was visible during the interview with Hot_Bid, as well as her voice seeming a bit weird) which was confirmed within hours.
That's all I'm saying here, nobody was manipulated. This information has, for better or for worse, been made public from the get-go.
I do agree that there's an excess of zeal in the moderation and banhammering of controversial posts on topics like transgendered people and even homosexuality, but you might want to take that one to the Website Feedback section.
On November 26 2012 19:08 GeNeSiDe wrote: Wow wait so puck is a dude who wants to be a chick, went away to switch gender surgery? Really looked like a guy wtf
And Scarlett is actually a dude too? Why is it marked as "the most successful female sc2" when there's a penis hanging between her/his/it's legs.
Jesus
I mean it's not fair to real girls that some husky voiced tranny is taking their crown, in fact it's worse because it further pushes women out if the only competitive "chicks" used to be guys/still are but won't admit it
-.- seriously?
I have a dick between my legs which means I can't turn up to women's sports. I can't break the women's 100m because I'm a man and women are slower, even if I was convinced I was a woman. Your not a woman or a man because you DECIDE; it's a permanent biological condition and plastic surgery does not address this. So yeah, holding up Scarlett as the women's role model when she is biologically a man is abit silly no?
as far as i'm concerned you're a dick entirely. no fucking point in arguing with someone who is so clearly deluded with the idea that you are what you look like. read up on kleinfelter's. read about turner's. read about SRY translocation. read about androgen insensitivity. then fucking tell us if you still think gender is as black and white as you make it out to be. you know next to nothing about either of these people and yet you just assume they're deciding what they want to be.
I'm guessing there are no mods on at the moment, 'cause he'd have been warned/banned for his first post alone.
It's all good if people switch genders, and it's great that TL is so accepting. But I sincerely hope that people don't overestimate, hype up, or go wild about the transgender thing. It's what happened with Scarlett - she's great, don't get me wrong, but from the very start when she was an obscure random name that beat a Korean, she was incredibly over-hyped (like when she got knocked out of the tournament I checked TL and there was already a 8 page fan club).
still dont get it why they ban him fckin cencorship, he wasnt offending just telling his opinion .. i have no problem with transgenders but i still get his point, if hussein bolt would change sex and breaks all female running records is it fair/legit??
You forgot the crown rule of TL is; be nice, be safe, and avoid saying anything controversial in fear of the ban hammer as older men fear god; can be a mighty tool to avoid trolling but when freedom of expression has to be sacrificed in the name of peace and equality, how much do you value that peace and equality, knowing that it is only bestowed upon you by those who see you not as the person you are but simply a IP address and viewership number to be crushed like a bug if need be...
Agreed, the fundamental point here to drive home is that pretty much any coverage of Scarlett has been on the lines of "this girl rocks the world, taking down all these men" etc etc...
I'm sorry but the first thing that appeared when she joined Eclypsia was how it was awesome it was to have a successful woman pro-gamer who had a track record of sticking it to Koreans and that's how I've thought of her until now; I'm sorry but I feel so cheated having cheered her on all these times, telling people how PROUD I was that women were finally breaking through in SC and not just a side-game joke like SlayersEve vs ST-Aprodite, only to find out that the woman I was cheering on is a man in the process/who has become a woman?
I'm sorry but this is a blatant manipulation of the psyche of the Starcraft community, because if Scarlett shows up BEING HER/HIS/IT's self and we don't get this "women can do it too" PR campaign there's nothing wrong, I had a girl in school who wanted to be a boy, changed her name and got the surgery as an adult, she(he) is cool now. I understand this wasn't her fault, she deserves the attention for her results and I'm sure everyone was just as confused about this, fair play. However it would be incredibly daft, unfair and problematic if either LeiYa or Scarlett are shone as the beacon of women gamers(I know LeiYa won't be as she was known as PuCK for ages now and was known as a man) when I'll go out on a limb and say that any female gamer's would not look to these two as their predecessors/idols, because at the end of the day, beyond all the 21st century, you can be who you want to be bollocks, these two WERE men, and may technically still be(I guess would make for the best kind of gay friend?)
I'm going to refute my own advice and risk the banhammer by saying this; we as a community need to be very careful about idolizing/encouraging such intimate details about the lives of our stars, adding transgenders to the list of popular fringe personalities in the Starcraft community is IMO only going to keep us at the fringe of society, atleast while the community has so much dirty underwear floating around the internet(this being not the worst but maybe the oddest?). Allthough I understand transgender as a personal choice I think it begs the question if it is a personal issue why does it have any place being a well-known and accepted fact in the community?
Being transgender isn't a personal choice, it's neuroanatomically hardwired, and transitioning is unfortunately the most public private thing one can do. Trans women weren't men, they are women; they just were/still are more or less male and have been forced against their will to live as such; there's a huge difference between gender and sex. Gender also has got nothing to do with sexual orientation, trans women can still be lesbian/bi/asexual. And Scarlett did come out on reddit right after IPL4 that she's transgender.
And so you say that just because being trans is generally viewed very negatively and horrendously misinformedly by society, you'd rather take away trans people's rights to compete at high levels not to give a "bad reputation" to the community? Seriously? Plus if anything, the community accepting trans people gives the community a better reputation, and it also spreads more awareness that being trans is in fact a normal thing, it's not some mental insanity / sexual deviance.
And the fact that more girls don't play SC2 at high level is purely social, as a result of girls playing video games being frowned upon, let alone playing it a lot, very seriously and openly.
On November 26 2012 19:08 GeNeSiDe wrote: Wow wait so puck is a dude who wants to be a chick, went away to switch gender surgery? Really looked like a guy wtf
And Scarlett is actually a dude too? Why is it marked as "the most successful female sc2" when there's a penis hanging between her/his/it's legs.
Jesus
I mean it's not fair to real girls that some husky voiced tranny is taking their crown, in fact it's worse because it further pushes women out if the only competitive "chicks" used to be guys/still are but won't admit it
-.- seriously?
I have a dick between my legs which means I can't turn up to women's sports. I can't break the women's 100m because I'm a man and women are slower, even if I was convinced I was a woman. Your not a woman or a man because you DECIDE; it's a permanent biological condition and plastic surgery does not address this. So yeah, holding up Scarlett as the women's role model when she is biologically a man is abit silly no?
as far as i'm concerned you're a dick entirely. no fucking point in arguing with someone who is so clearly deluded with the idea that you are what you look like. read up on kleinfelter's. read about turner's. read about SRY translocation. read about androgen insensitivity. then fucking tell us if you still think gender is as black and white as you make it out to be. you know next to nothing about either of these people and yet you just assume they're deciding what they want to be.
I'm guessing there are no mods on at the moment, 'cause he'd have been warned/banned for his first post alone.
It's all good if people switch genders, and it's great that TL is so accepting. But I sincerely hope that people don't overestimate, hype up, or go wild about the transgender thing. It's what happened with Scarlett - she's great, don't get me wrong, but from the very start when she was an obscure random name that beat a Korean, she was incredibly over-hyped (like when she got knocked out of the tournament I checked TL and there was already a 8 page fan club).
still dont get it why they ban him fckin cencorship, he wasnt offending just telling his opinion .. i have no problem with transgenders but i still get his point, if hussein bolt would change sex and breaks all female running records is it fair/legit??
You forgot the crown rule of TL is; be nice, be safe, and avoid saying anything controversial in fear of the ban hammer as older men fear god; can be a mighty tool to avoid trolling but when freedom of expression has to be sacrificed in the name of peace and equality, how much do you value that peace and equality, knowing that it is only bestowed upon you by those who see you not as the person you are but simply a IP address and viewership number to be crushed like a bug if need be...
Agreed, the fundamental point here to drive home is that pretty much any coverage of Scarlett has been on the lines of "this girl rocks the world, taking down all these men" etc etc...
I'm sorry but the first thing that appeared when she joined Eclypsia was how it was awesome it was to have a successful woman pro-gamer who had a track record of sticking it to Koreans and that's how I've thought of her until now; I'm sorry but I feel so cheated having cheered her on all these times, telling people how PROUD I was that women were finally breaking through in SC and not just a side-game joke like SlayersEve vs ST-Aprodite, only to find out that the woman I was cheering on is a man in the process/who has become a woman?
I'm sorry but this is a blatant manipulation of the psyche of the Starcraft community, because if Scarlett shows up BEING HER/HIS/IT's self and we don't get this "women can do it too" PR campaign there's nothing wrong, I had a girl in school who wanted to be a boy, changed her name and got the surgery as an adult, she(he) is cool now. I understand this wasn't her fault, she deserves the attention for her results and I'm sure everyone was just as confused about this, fair play. However it would be incredibly daft, unfair and problematic if either LeiYa or Scarlett are shone as the beacon of women gamers(I know LeiYa won't be as she was known as PuCK for ages now and was known as a man) when I'll go out on a limb and say that any female gamer's would not look to these two as their predecessors/idols, because at the end of the day, beyond all the 21st century, you can be who you want to be bollocks, these two WERE men, and may technically still be(I guess would make for the best kind of gay friend?)
I'm going to refute my own advice and risk the banhammer by saying this; we as a community need to be very careful about idolizing/encouraging such intimate details about the lives of our stars, adding transgenders to the list of popular fringe personalities in the Starcraft community is IMO only going to keep us at the fringe of society, atleast while the community has so much dirty underwear floating around the internet(this being not the worst but maybe the oddest?). Although I understand transgender as a personal choice I think it begs the question if it is a personal issue why does it have any place being a well-known and accepted fact in the community?
I don't exactly get how this "manipulation of the psyche of the Starcraft community" transpired, because if I remember correctly, Scarlett made a name for herself by playing in the IPL 4 open bracket and during the same event, if not within minutes of her video interview, someone on reddit posted claims about her being a transgender (mostly because of the adam's apple that was visible during the interview with Hot_Bid, as well as her voice seeming a bit weird) which was confirmed within hours.
That's all I'm saying here, nobody was manipulated. This information has, for better or for worse, been made public from the get-go.
I do agree that there's an excess of zeal in the moderation and banhammering of controversial posts on topics like transgendered people and even homosexuality, but you might want to take that one to the Website Feedback section.
Well for someone like myself who has time to watch the games/read the highlights but couldn't give a rat's ass about interviews and other such stuff, this Scarlett thing went over my head until I read this post. Yeah, I'd checked her out and been like "no way"(tbh my radar was tingling when I first saw pics as well), but looking back this is the kind of stuff im referring to.
Source:"Scarlett Joins Eclypsia" http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329727 Excerpt: "The 18 year old Canadian only started playing a year ago and first started to make a name for herself this Autumn, winning two Iron Lady Champion Cups".
Ok so just to start off, why has nobody taken those titles off her and given them to the runner ups? As recently as 04/2012 it shows her winning an "Iron Lady Leetgion" Tournament, this must have been long after she had come out the the community, still shitting on real females in an all-girl cup, cleverly lying on this screen at ESL to do it:
Requirements
Current requirements: Gender Your gender has to be the following one.
Required gender: f Gameaccount Players must have added the following gameaccount to their account to play in this league.
Type: StarCraft II Nick#Character code (Battle.net US) (click here to add) min. members: 1
Next up we have this:
Source:http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Female_SC2_Scene Excerpt: In July, Scarlett made history, being the first woman to win a major mixed gender championship as she won the Canadian national finals for the 2012 StarCraft II World Championship. A week later, Aphrodite, too, made history being the first woman to have a broadcasted game in GOMTV's SC2 production
Scarlett is the first woman to win a major tournament and the only female player to win a national finals in WCS, not to mention a continental finals.
On November 26 2012 19:08 GeNeSiDe wrote: Wow wait so puck is a dude who wants to be a chick, went away to switch gender surgery? Really looked like a guy wtf
And Scarlett is actually a dude too? Why is it marked as "the most successful female sc2" when there's a penis hanging between her/his/it's legs.
Jesus
I mean it's not fair to real girls that some husky voiced tranny is taking their crown, in fact it's worse because it further pushes women out if the only competitive "chicks" used to be guys/still are but won't admit it
-.- seriously?
I have a dick between my legs which means I can't turn up to women's sports. I can't break the women's 100m because I'm a man and women are slower, even if I was convinced I was a woman. Your not a woman or a man because you DECIDE; it's a permanent biological condition and plastic surgery does not address this. So yeah, holding up Scarlett as the women's role model when she is biologically a man is abit silly no?
as far as i'm concerned you're a dick entirely. no fucking point in arguing with someone who is so clearly deluded with the idea that you are what you look like. read up on kleinfelter's. read about turner's. read about SRY translocation. read about androgen insensitivity. then fucking tell us if you still think gender is as black and white as you make it out to be. you know next to nothing about either of these people and yet you just assume they're deciding what they want to be.
I'm guessing there are no mods on at the moment, 'cause he'd have been warned/banned for his first post alone.
It's all good if people switch genders, and it's great that TL is so accepting. But I sincerely hope that people don't overestimate, hype up, or go wild about the transgender thing. It's what happened with Scarlett - she's great, don't get me wrong, but from the very start when she was an obscure random name that beat a Korean, she was incredibly over-hyped (like when she got knocked out of the tournament I checked TL and there was already a 8 page fan club).
still dont get it why they ban him fckin cencorship, he wasnt offending just telling his opinion .. i have no problem with transgenders but i still get his point, if hussein bolt would change sex and breaks all female running records is it fair/legit??
You forgot the crown rule of TL is; be nice, be safe, and avoid saying anything controversial in fear of the ban hammer as older men fear god; can be a mighty tool to avoid trolling but when freedom of expression has to be sacrificed in the name of peace and equality, how much do you value that peace and equality, knowing that it is only bestowed upon you by those who see you not as the person you are but simply a IP address and viewership number to be crushed like a bug if need be...
Agreed, the fundamental point here to drive home is that pretty much any coverage of Scarlett has been on the lines of "this girl rocks the world, taking down all these men" etc etc...
I'm sorry but the first thing that appeared when she joined Eclypsia was how it was awesome it was to have a successful woman pro-gamer who had a track record of sticking it to Koreans and that's how I've thought of her until now; I'm sorry but I feel so cheated having cheered her on all these times, telling people how PROUD I was that women were finally breaking through in SC and not just a side-game joke like SlayersEve vs ST-Aprodite, only to find out that the woman I was cheering on is a man in the process/who has become a woman?
I'm sorry but this is a blatant manipulation of the psyche of the Starcraft community, because if Scarlett shows up BEING HER/HIS/IT's self and we don't get this "women can do it too" PR campaign there's nothing wrong, I had a girl in school who wanted to be a boy, changed her name and got the surgery as an adult, she(he) is cool now. I understand this wasn't her fault, she deserves the attention for her results and I'm sure everyone was just as confused about this, fair play. However it would be incredibly daft, unfair and problematic if either LeiYa or Scarlett are shone as the beacon of women gamers(I know LeiYa won't be as she was known as PuCK for ages now and was known as a man) when I'll go out on a limb and say that any female gamer's would not look to these two as their predecessors/idols, because at the end of the day, beyond all the 21st century, you can be who you want to be bollocks, these two WERE men, and may technically still be(I guess would make for the best kind of gay friend?)
I'm going to refute my own advice and risk the banhammer by saying this; we as a community need to be very careful about idolizing/encouraging such intimate details about the lives of our stars, adding transgenders to the list of popular fringe personalities in the Starcraft community is IMO only going to keep us at the fringe of society, atleast while the community has so much dirty underwear floating around the internet(this being not the worst but maybe the oddest?). Allthough I understand transgender as a personal choice I think it begs the question if it is a personal issue why does it have any place being a well-known and accepted fact in the community?
Being transgender isn't a personal choice, it's neuroanatomically hardwired, and transitioning is unfortunately the most public private thing one can do. Trans women weren't men, they are women; they just were/still are more or less male and have been forced against their will to live as such; there's a huge difference between gender and sex. Gender also has got nothing to do with sexual orientation, trans women can still be lesbian/bi/asexual. And Scarlett did come out on reddit right after IPL4 that she's transgender.
And so you say that just because being trans is generally viewed very negatively and horrendously misinformedly by society, you'd rather take away trans people's rights to compete at high levels not to give a "bad reputation" to the community? Seriously? Plus if anything, the community accepting trans people gives the community a better reputation, and it also spreads more awareness that being trans is in fact a normal thing, it's not some mental insanity / sexual deviance.
And the fact that more girls don't play SC2 at high level is purely social, as a result of girls playing video games being frowned upon, let alone playing it a lot, very seriously and openly.
I never said don't let her compete, I SAID IF YOU READ MY POSTS.
Do not let her receive woman's awards/play in women's tournaments/be haralded as the coming of eve in SC2
On November 26 2012 19:08 GeNeSiDe wrote: Wow wait so puck is a dude who wants to be a chick, went away to switch gender surgery? Really looked like a guy wtf
And Scarlett is actually a dude too? Why is it marked as "the most successful female sc2" when there's a penis hanging between her/his/it's legs.
Jesus
I mean it's not fair to real girls that some husky voiced tranny is taking their crown, in fact it's worse because it further pushes women out if the only competitive "chicks" used to be guys/still are but won't admit it
-.- seriously?
I have a dick between my legs which means I can't turn up to women's sports. I can't break the women's 100m because I'm a man and women are slower, even if I was convinced I was a woman. Your not a woman or a man because you DECIDE; it's a permanent biological condition and plastic surgery does not address this. So yeah, holding up Scarlett as the women's role model when she is biologically a man is abit silly no?
as far as i'm concerned you're a dick entirely. no fucking point in arguing with someone who is so clearly deluded with the idea that you are what you look like. read up on kleinfelter's. read about turner's. read about SRY translocation. read about androgen insensitivity. then fucking tell us if you still think gender is as black and white as you make it out to be. you know next to nothing about either of these people and yet you just assume they're deciding what they want to be.
I'm guessing there are no mods on at the moment, 'cause he'd have been warned/banned for his first post alone.
It's all good if people switch genders, and it's great that TL is so accepting. But I sincerely hope that people don't overestimate, hype up, or go wild about the transgender thing. It's what happened with Scarlett - she's great, don't get me wrong, but from the very start when she was an obscure random name that beat a Korean, she was incredibly over-hyped (like when she got knocked out of the tournament I checked TL and there was already a 8 page fan club).
still dont get it why they ban him fckin cencorship, he wasnt offending just telling his opinion .. i have no problem with transgenders but i still get his point, if hussein bolt would change sex and breaks all female running records is it fair/legit??
You forgot the crown rule of TL is; be nice, be safe, and avoid saying anything controversial in fear of the ban hammer as older men fear god; can be a mighty tool to avoid trolling but when freedom of expression has to be sacrificed in the name of peace and equality, how much do you value that peace and equality, knowing that it is only bestowed upon you by those who see you not as the person you are but simply a IP address and viewership number to be crushed like a bug if need be...
Agreed, the fundamental point here to drive home is that pretty much any coverage of Scarlett has been on the lines of "this girl rocks the world, taking down all these men" etc etc...
I'm sorry but the first thing that appeared when she joined Eclypsia was how it was awesome it was to have a successful woman pro-gamer who had a track record of sticking it to Koreans and that's how I've thought of her until now; I'm sorry but I feel so cheated having cheered her on all these times, telling people how PROUD I was that women were finally breaking through in SC and not just a side-game joke like SlayersEve vs ST-Aprodite, only to find out that the woman I was cheering on is a man in the process/who has become a woman?
I'm sorry but this is a blatant manipulation of the psyche of the Starcraft community, because if Scarlett shows up BEING HER/HIS/IT's self and we don't get this "women can do it too" PR campaign there's nothing wrong, I had a girl in school who wanted to be a boy, changed her name and got the surgery as an adult, she(he) is cool now. I understand this wasn't her fault, she deserves the attention for her results and I'm sure everyone was just as confused about this, fair play. However it would be incredibly daft, unfair and problematic if either LeiYa or Scarlett are shone as the beacon of women gamers(I know LeiYa won't be as she was known as PuCK for ages now and was known as a man) when I'll go out on a limb and say that any female gamer's would not look to these two as their predecessors/idols, because at the end of the day, beyond all the 21st century, you can be who you want to be bollocks, these two WERE men, and may technically still be(I guess would make for the best kind of gay friend?)
I'm going to refute my own advice and risk the banhammer by saying this; we as a community need to be very careful about idolizing/encouraging such intimate details about the lives of our stars, adding transgenders to the list of popular fringe personalities in the Starcraft community is IMO only going to keep us at the fringe of society, atleast while the community has so much dirty underwear floating around the internet(this being not the worst but maybe the oddest?). Allthough I understand transgender as a personal choice I think it begs the question if it is a personal issue why does it have any place being a well-known and accepted fact in the community?
Being transgender isn't a personal choice, it's neuroanatomically hardwired, and transitioning is unfortunately the most public private thing one can do. Trans women weren't men, they are women; they just were/still are more or less male and have been forced against their will to live as such; there's a huge difference between gender and sex. Gender also has got nothing to do with sexual orientation, trans women can still be lesbian/bi/asexual. And Scarlett did come out on reddit right after IPL4 that she's transgender.
And so you say that just because being trans is generally viewed very negatively and horrendously misinformedly by society, you'd rather take away trans people's rights to compete at high levels not to give a "bad reputation" to the community? Seriously? Plus if anything, the community accepting trans people gives the community a better reputation, and it also spreads more awareness that being trans is in fact a normal thing, it's not some mental insanity / sexual deviance.
And the fact that more girls don't play SC2 at high level is purely social, as a result of girls playing video games being frowned upon, let alone playing it a lot, very seriously and openly.
I never said don't let her compete, I SAID IF YOU READ MY POSTS.
Do not let her receive woman's awards/play in women's tournaments/be haralded as the coming of eve in SC2
Well what were you implying then with the last paragraph in your post that I previously quoted?
And she was invited to the Iron Lady tournaments by the hosts, and the other participants were aware and didn't mind the fact that she's trans. In my opinion it should indeed be up to the tournament hosts and the other participants. If they don't have a problem with it, then why should uninvolved people have a say in it?
And what do you want people to say then? To keep telling it every time that Scarlett and LeiYa are trans?
On November 26 2012 19:08 GeNeSiDe wrote: Wow wait so puck is a dude who wants to be a chick, went away to switch gender surgery? Really looked like a guy wtf
And Scarlett is actually a dude too? Why is it marked as "the most successful female sc2" when there's a penis hanging between her/his/it's legs.
Jesus
I mean it's not fair to real girls that some husky voiced tranny is taking their crown, in fact it's worse because it further pushes women out if the only competitive "chicks" used to be guys/still are but won't admit it
-.- seriously?
I have a dick between my legs which means I can't turn up to women's sports. I can't break the women's 100m because I'm a man and women are slower, even if I was convinced I was a woman. Your not a woman or a man because you DECIDE; it's a permanent biological condition and plastic surgery does not address this. So yeah, holding up Scarlett as the women's role model when she is biologically a man is abit silly no?
as far as i'm concerned you're a dick entirely. no fucking point in arguing with someone who is so clearly deluded with the idea that you are what you look like. read up on kleinfelter's. read about turner's. read about SRY translocation. read about androgen insensitivity. then fucking tell us if you still think gender is as black and white as you make it out to be. you know next to nothing about either of these people and yet you just assume they're deciding what they want to be.
I'm guessing there are no mods on at the moment, 'cause he'd have been warned/banned for his first post alone.
It's all good if people switch genders, and it's great that TL is so accepting. But I sincerely hope that people don't overestimate, hype up, or go wild about the transgender thing. It's what happened with Scarlett - she's great, don't get me wrong, but from the very start when she was an obscure random name that beat a Korean, she was incredibly over-hyped (like when she got knocked out of the tournament I checked TL and there was already a 8 page fan club).
still dont get it why they ban him fckin cencorship, he wasnt offending just telling his opinion .. i have no problem with transgenders but i still get his point, if hussein bolt would change sex and breaks all female running records is it fair/legit??
You forgot the crown rule of TL is; be nice, be safe, and avoid saying anything controversial in fear of the ban hammer as older men fear god; can be a mighty tool to avoid trolling but when freedom of expression has to be sacrificed in the name of peace and equality, how much do you value that peace and equality, knowing that it is only bestowed upon you by those who see you not as the person you are but simply a IP address and viewership number to be crushed like a bug if need be...
Agreed, the fundamental point here to drive home is that pretty much any coverage of Scarlett has been on the lines of "this girl rocks the world, taking down all these men" etc etc...
I'm sorry but the first thing that appeared when she joined Eclypsia was how it was awesome it was to have a successful woman pro-gamer who had a track record of sticking it to Koreans and that's how I've thought of her until now; I'm sorry but I feel so cheated having cheered her on all these times, telling people how PROUD I was that women were finally breaking through in SC and not just a side-game joke like SlayersEve vs ST-Aprodite, only to find out that the woman I was cheering on is a man in the process/who has become a woman?
I'm sorry but this is a blatant manipulation of the psyche of the Starcraft community, because if Scarlett shows up BEING HER/HIS/IT's self and we don't get this "women can do it too" PR campaign there's nothing wrong, I had a girl in school who wanted to be a boy, changed her name and got the surgery as an adult, she(he) is cool now. I understand this wasn't her fault, she deserves the attention for her results and I'm sure everyone was just as confused about this, fair play. However it would be incredibly daft, unfair and problematic if either LeiYa or Scarlett are shone as the beacon of women gamers(I know LeiYa won't be as she was known as PuCK for ages now and was known as a man) when I'll go out on a limb and say that any female gamer's would not look to these two as their predecessors/idols, because at the end of the day, beyond all the 21st century, you can be who you want to be bollocks, these two WERE men, and may technically still be(I guess would make for the best kind of gay friend?)
I'm going to refute my own advice and risk the banhammer by saying this; we as a community need to be very careful about idolizing/encouraging such intimate details about the lives of our stars, adding transgenders to the list of popular fringe personalities in the Starcraft community is IMO only going to keep us at the fringe of society, atleast while the community has so much dirty underwear floating around the internet(this being not the worst but maybe the oddest?). Although I understand transgender as a personal choice I think it begs the question if it is a personal issue why does it have any place being a well-known and accepted fact in the community?
I don't exactly get how this "manipulation of the psyche of the Starcraft community" transpired, because if I remember correctly, Scarlett made a name for herself by playing in the IPL 4 open bracket and during the same event, if not within minutes of her video interview, someone on reddit posted claims about her being a transgender (mostly because of the adam's apple that was visible during the interview with Hot_Bid, as well as her voice seeming a bit weird) which was confirmed within hours.
That's all I'm saying here, nobody was manipulated. This information has, for better or for worse, been made public from the get-go.
I do agree that there's an excess of zeal in the moderation and banhammering of controversial posts on topics like transgendered people and even homosexuality, but you might want to take that one to the Website Feedback section.
Well for someone like myself who has time to watch the games/read the highlights but couldn't give a rat's ass about interviews and other such stuff, this Scarlett thing went over my head until I read this post. Yeah, I'd checked her out and been like "no way"(tbh my radar was tingling when I first saw pics as well), but looking back this is the kind of stuff im referring to.
Source:"Scarlett Joins Eclypsia" http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329727 Excerpt: "The 18 year old Canadian only started playing a year ago and first started to make a name for herself this Autumn, winning two Iron Lady Champion Cups".
Ok so just to start off, why has nobody taken those titles off her and given them to the runner ups? As recently as 04/2012 it shows her winning an "Iron Lady Leetgion" Tournament, this must have been long after she had come out the the community, still shitting on real females in an all-girl cup, cleverly lying on this screen at ESL to do it:
Requirements
Current requirements: Gender Your gender has to be the following one.
Required gender: f Gameaccount Players must have added the following gameaccount to their account to play in this league.
Type: StarCraft II Nick#Character code (Battle.net US) (click here to add) min. members: 1
Next up we have this:
Source:http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Female_SC2_Scene Excerpt: In July, Scarlett made history, being the first woman to win a major mixed gender championship as she won the Canadian national finals for the 2012 StarCraft II World Championship. A week later, Aphrodite, too, made history being the first woman to have a broadcasted game in GOMTV's SC2 production
Scarlett is the first woman to win a major tournament and the only female player to win a national finals in WCS, not to mention a continental finals.
I have made my point now what say thou?
She was personally allowed by the organizers of those tournaments to play in them. Iron Lady cups fully knew the situation. Scarlett has never tried to hide her gender situation; it was almost immediately known after IPL. It is not her fault that you are unaware of these events and are only now outraged.
Generally, people who identify as women are referred to as "female". It is clear that you cannot accept this, and there is nothing that can really be changed about that. While it is within your rights to have your opinions on the matters and I do hope that there isn't rampant mod action, it is quite insulting and hurtful to state that some people who identify as female should not be allowed to live how they would like to, just because it offends some people's sensibilities.
On November 26 2012 19:08 GeNeSiDe wrote: Wow wait so puck is a dude who wants to be a chick, went away to switch gender surgery? Really looked like a guy wtf
And Scarlett is actually a dude too? Why is it marked as "the most successful female sc2" when there's a penis hanging between her/his/it's legs.
Jesus
I mean it's not fair to real girls that some husky voiced tranny is taking their crown, in fact it's worse because it further pushes women out if the only competitive "chicks" used to be guys/still are but won't admit it
-.- seriously?
I have a dick between my legs which means I can't turn up to women's sports. I can't break the women's 100m because I'm a man and women are slower, even if I was convinced I was a woman. Your not a woman or a man because you DECIDE; it's a permanent biological condition and plastic surgery does not address this. So yeah, holding up Scarlett as the women's role model when she is biologically a man is abit silly no?
as far as i'm concerned you're a dick entirely. no fucking point in arguing with someone who is so clearly deluded with the idea that you are what you look like. read up on kleinfelter's. read about turner's. read about SRY translocation. read about androgen insensitivity. then fucking tell us if you still think gender is as black and white as you make it out to be. you know next to nothing about either of these people and yet you just assume they're deciding what they want to be.
I'm guessing there are no mods on at the moment, 'cause he'd have been warned/banned for his first post alone.
It's all good if people switch genders, and it's great that TL is so accepting. But I sincerely hope that people don't overestimate, hype up, or go wild about the transgender thing. It's what happened with Scarlett - she's great, don't get me wrong, but from the very start when she was an obscure random name that beat a Korean, she was incredibly over-hyped (like when she got knocked out of the tournament I checked TL and there was already a 8 page fan club).
still dont get it why they ban him fckin cencorship, he wasnt offending just telling his opinion .. i have no problem with transgenders but i still get his point, if hussein bolt would change sex and breaks all female running records is it fair/legit??
You forgot the crown rule of TL is; be nice, be safe, and avoid saying anything controversial in fear of the ban hammer as older men fear god; can be a mighty tool to avoid trolling but when freedom of expression has to be sacrificed in the name of peace and equality, how much do you value that peace and equality, knowing that it is only bestowed upon you by those who see you not as the person you are but simply a IP address and viewership number to be crushed like a bug if need be...
Agreed, the fundamental point here to drive home is that pretty much any coverage of Scarlett has been on the lines of "this girl rocks the world, taking down all these men" etc etc...
I'm sorry but the first thing that appeared when she joined Eclypsia was how it was awesome it was to have a successful woman pro-gamer who had a track record of sticking it to Koreans and that's how I've thought of her until now; I'm sorry but I feel so cheated having cheered her on all these times, telling people how PROUD I was that women were finally breaking through in SC and not just a side-game joke like SlayersEve vs ST-Aprodite, only to find out that the woman I was cheering on is a man in the process/who has become a woman?
I'm sorry but this is a blatant manipulation of the psyche of the Starcraft community, because if Scarlett shows up BEING HER/HIS/IT's self and we don't get this "women can do it too" PR campaign there's nothing wrong, I had a girl in school who wanted to be a boy, changed her name and got the surgery as an adult, she(he) is cool now. I understand this wasn't her fault, she deserves the attention for her results and I'm sure everyone was just as confused about this, fair play. However it would be incredibly daft, unfair and problematic if either LeiYa or Scarlett are shone as the beacon of women gamers(I know LeiYa won't be as she was known as PuCK for ages now and was known as a man) when I'll go out on a limb and say that any female gamer's would not look to these two as their predecessors/idols, because at the end of the day, beyond all the 21st century, you can be who you want to be bollocks, these two WERE men, and may technically still be(I guess would make for the best kind of gay friend?)
I'm going to refute my own advice and risk the banhammer by saying this; we as a community need to be very careful about idolizing/encouraging such intimate details about the lives of our stars, adding transgenders to the list of popular fringe personalities in the Starcraft community is IMO only going to keep us at the fringe of society, atleast while the community has so much dirty underwear floating around the internet(this being not the worst but maybe the oddest?). Allthough I understand transgender as a personal choice I think it begs the question if it is a personal issue why does it have any place being a well-known and accepted fact in the community?
Being transgender isn't a personal choice, it's neuroanatomically hardwired, and transitioning is unfortunately the most public private thing one can do. Trans women weren't men, they are women; they just were/still are more or less male and have been forced against their will to live as such; there's a huge difference between gender and sex. Gender also has got nothing to do with sexual orientation, trans women can still be lesbian/bi/asexual. And Scarlett did come out on reddit right after IPL4 that she's transgender.
And so you say that just because being trans is generally viewed very negatively and horrendously misinformedly by society, you'd rather take away trans people's rights to compete at high levels not to give a "bad reputation" to the community? Seriously? Plus if anything, the community accepting trans people gives the community a better reputation, and it also spreads more awareness that being trans is in fact a normal thing, it's not some mental insanity / sexual deviance.
And the fact that more girls don't play SC2 at high level is purely social, as a result of girls playing video games being frowned upon, let alone playing it a lot, very seriously and openly.
I never said don't let her compete, I SAID IF YOU READ MY POSTS.
Do not let her receive woman's awards/play in women's tournaments/be haralded as the coming of eve in SC2
Well what were you implying then with the last paragraph in your post that I previously quoted?
And she was invited to the Iron Lady tournaments by the hosts, and the other participants were aware and didn't mind the fact that she's trans. In my opinion it should indeed be up to the tournament hosts and the other participants. If they don't have a problem with it, then why should uninvolved people have a say in it?
And what do you want people to say then? To keep telling it every time that Scarlett and LeiYa are trans?
I was merely suggesting the fact that promoting fringe personalities is a way to stay as a fringe community, I just don't see the public accepting the fact that trans players win women's tournaments; I mean even saying it myself is so bloody unfair, why not just let men compete and get rid of gender tournaments.
TBH it just gives me even more of a reason to completely turn my back on the laughably small group of female SC2 "pro" gamers.
But hey if they want it to go in the SC Bible Volume 2 in that huge records section, next to all the great records we have in our 2 years with this game, that Scarlett was the first woman to win a mixed tournaments, I'll let them live with that fallacy.
The public already knows about her Iron Lady wins, and for the most part no one threw a fit.
Be honest, were you ever going to support female SC2 pros anyways?
Scarlett doesn't give a crap about being in a "bible" or holding "records"; she became famous for her play. There's no need to skew things just because it offends you.
On November 26 2012 19:08 GeNeSiDe wrote: Wow wait so puck is a dude who wants to be a chick, went away to switch gender surgery? Really looked like a guy wtf
And Scarlett is actually a dude too? Why is it marked as "the most successful female sc2" when there's a penis hanging between her/his/it's legs.
Jesus
I mean it's not fair to real girls that some husky voiced tranny is taking their crown, in fact it's worse because it further pushes women out if the only competitive "chicks" used to be guys/still are but won't admit it
-.- seriously?
I have a dick between my legs which means I can't turn up to women's sports. I can't break the women's 100m because I'm a man and women are slower, even if I was convinced I was a woman. Your not a woman or a man because you DECIDE; it's a permanent biological condition and plastic surgery does not address this. So yeah, holding up Scarlett as the women's role model when she is biologically a man is abit silly no?
as far as i'm concerned you're a dick entirely. no fucking point in arguing with someone who is so clearly deluded with the idea that you are what you look like. read up on kleinfelter's. read about turner's. read about SRY translocation. read about androgen insensitivity. then fucking tell us if you still think gender is as black and white as you make it out to be. you know next to nothing about either of these people and yet you just assume they're deciding what they want to be.
I'm guessing there are no mods on at the moment, 'cause he'd have been warned/banned for his first post alone.
It's all good if people switch genders, and it's great that TL is so accepting. But I sincerely hope that people don't overestimate, hype up, or go wild about the transgender thing. It's what happened with Scarlett - she's great, don't get me wrong, but from the very start when she was an obscure random name that beat a Korean, she was incredibly over-hyped (like when she got knocked out of the tournament I checked TL and there was already a 8 page fan club).
still dont get it why they ban him fckin cencorship, he wasnt offending just telling his opinion .. i have no problem with transgenders but i still get his point, if hussein bolt would change sex and breaks all female running records is it fair/legit??
You forgot the crown rule of TL is; be nice, be safe, and avoid saying anything controversial in fear of the ban hammer as older men fear god; can be a mighty tool to avoid trolling but when freedom of expression has to be sacrificed in the name of peace and equality, how much do you value that peace and equality, knowing that it is only bestowed upon you by those who see you not as the person you are but simply a IP address and viewership number to be crushed like a bug if need be...
Agreed, the fundamental point here to drive home is that pretty much any coverage of Scarlett has been on the lines of "this girl rocks the world, taking down all these men" etc etc...
I'm sorry but the first thing that appeared when she joined Eclypsia was how it was awesome it was to have a successful woman pro-gamer who had a track record of sticking it to Koreans and that's how I've thought of her until now; I'm sorry but I feel so cheated having cheered her on all these times, telling people how PROUD I was that women were finally breaking through in SC and not just a side-game joke like SlayersEve vs ST-Aprodite, only to find out that the woman I was cheering on is a man in the process/who has become a woman?
I'm sorry but this is a blatant manipulation of the psyche of the Starcraft community, because if Scarlett shows up BEING HER/HIS/IT's self and we don't get this "women can do it too" PR campaign there's nothing wrong, I had a girl in school who wanted to be a boy, changed her name and got the surgery as an adult, she(he) is cool now. I understand this wasn't her fault, she deserves the attention for her results and I'm sure everyone was just as confused about this, fair play. However it would be incredibly daft, unfair and problematic if either LeiYa or Scarlett are shone as the beacon of women gamers(I know LeiYa won't be as she was known as PuCK for ages now and was known as a man) when I'll go out on a limb and say that any female gamer's would not look to these two as their predecessors/idols, because at the end of the day, beyond all the 21st century, you can be who you want to be bollocks, these two WERE men, and may technically still be(I guess would make for the best kind of gay friend?)
I'm going to refute my own advice and risk the banhammer by saying this; we as a community need to be very careful about idolizing/encouraging such intimate details about the lives of our stars, adding transgenders to the list of popular fringe personalities in the Starcraft community is IMO only going to keep us at the fringe of society, atleast while the community has so much dirty underwear floating around the internet(this being not the worst but maybe the oddest?). Although I understand transgender as a personal choice I think it begs the question if it is a personal issue why does it have any place being a well-known and accepted fact in the community?
I don't exactly get how this "manipulation of the psyche of the Starcraft community" transpired, because if I remember correctly, Scarlett made a name for herself by playing in the IPL 4 open bracket and during the same event, if not within minutes of her video interview, someone on reddit posted claims about her being a transgender (mostly because of the adam's apple that was visible during the interview with Hot_Bid, as well as her voice seeming a bit weird) which was confirmed within hours.
That's all I'm saying here, nobody was manipulated. This information has, for better or for worse, been made public from the get-go.
I do agree that there's an excess of zeal in the moderation and banhammering of controversial posts on topics like transgendered people and even homosexuality, but you might want to take that one to the Website Feedback section.
Well for someone like myself who has time to watch the games/read the highlights but couldn't give a rat's ass about interviews and other such stuff, this Scarlett thing went over my head until I read this post. Yeah, I'd checked her out and been like "no way"(tbh my radar was tingling when I first saw pics as well), but looking back this is the kind of stuff im referring to.
Source:"Scarlett Joins Eclypsia" http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329727 Excerpt: "The 18 year old Canadian only started playing a year ago and first started to make a name for herself this Autumn, winning two Iron Lady Champion Cups".
Ok so just to start off, why has nobody taken those titles off her and given them to the runner ups? As recently as 04/2012 it shows her winning an "Iron Lady Leetgion" Tournament, this must have been long after she had come out the the community, still shitting on real females in an all-girl cup, cleverly lying on this screen at ESL to do it:
Requirements
Current requirements: Gender Your gender has to be the following one.
Required gender: f Gameaccount Players must have added the following gameaccount to their account to play in this league.
Type: StarCraft II Nick#Character code (Battle.net US) (click here to add) min. members: 1
Next up we have this:
Source:http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Female_SC2_Scene Excerpt: In July, Scarlett made history, being the first woman to win a major mixed gender championship as she won the Canadian national finals for the 2012 StarCraft II World Championship. A week later, Aphrodite, too, made history being the first woman to have a broadcasted game in GOMTV's SC2 production
Scarlett is the first woman to win a major tournament and the only female player to win a national finals in WCS, not to mention a continental finals.
I have made my point now what say thou?
She was personally allowed by the organizers of those tournaments to play in them. Iron Lady cups fully knew the situation. Scarlett has never tried to hide her gender situation; it was almost immediately known after IPL. It is not her fault that you are unaware of these events and are only now outraged.
Generally, people who identify as women are referred to as "female". It is clear that you cannot accept this, and there is nothing that can really be changed about that. While it is within your rights to have your opinions on the matters and I do hope that there isn't rampant mod action, it is quite insulting and hurtful to state that some people who identify as female should not be allowed to live how they would like to, just because it offends some people's sensibilities.
I'm sorry and this may sound horribly 18th Century, but I don't "identify" as a man. I was born one, confirmed by a doctor with 10 years of education and extensive experience. It's written in your passport and that's that, Male or Female, some Men may be gay or want to be women, some women may want to be men , but your still defined by which genitals you are born with.
Again, if you read my post, I couldn't give a rat's ass about how Scarlett or LeiYa choose to behave as long as they won't do it around me. I'm not taking away from their basic civil rights, I care about upholding the worthiness of a title like "first woman to...." when it's NOT TRUE. Don't you get it, at the bottom of it all. I take this community seriously but to me this would be like MVP going in the record books to have won his G5L trophy because he played in an online league once called G5L and won rather than what actually supposed to happen.
You know, the way an actual woman was supposed to receive this accolade.
Thus this title is a false flag operation, but hell obviously no one gives a shit about the integrity of the game, we just want to be all peace and happy and cool you can be who you want to be.
On November 27 2012 04:58 EchelonTee wrote: The public already knows about her Iron Lady wins, and for the most part no one threw a fit.
Be honest, were you ever going to support female SC2 pros anyways?
Scarlett doesn't give a crap about being in a "bible" or holding "records"; she became famous for her play. There's no need to skew things just because it offends you.
I was proud of Scarlett as a fellow Canadian and also as a woman. I can still be proud of the first statement but we all know what I think of the second.
Just can't wait for a nice CNN, FOX or BBC article about all this, gonna look bad. Maybe I should edit her Liquipedia myself to make it more truthful(take away the false allegations).
And it wouldn't be skewing things to say instead of "first woman to blah blah blah" to be "first transgender to blah blah blah"
It would be a truthful statement and all would be right in the world.
The gender identification is a long discussion that doesn't really have a place here. Science and Psychology has quite a few points to bring up on the subject, but that's neither here nor there.
I've read your posts a few times; that's why I felt the need to respond. Honestly, I can see where you're coming from, but this is one of those issues that doesn't have an easy resolution. It'd be like if a foreigner korean won GSL; people would say "omg first foreign win of GSL!", but others would say "lol but he's still korean".
I don't see how this ruins the integrity of the game, however. I think that you are taking this a bit too personally; I don't see how Scarlett and LeiYa are directly ruining the game for you, except that they have taken some "title" that no one places too much import on. If a non-transgendered female ends up winning a major tourny, there is no way that that accomplishment will not be recognized.
On November 26 2012 19:18 TheDraken wrote: [quote]
-.- seriously?
I have a dick between my legs which means I can't turn up to women's sports. I can't break the women's 100m because I'm a man and women are slower, even if I was convinced I was a woman. Your not a woman or a man because you DECIDE; it's a permanent biological condition and plastic surgery does not address this. So yeah, holding up Scarlett as the women's role model when she is biologically a man is abit silly no?
as far as i'm concerned you're a dick entirely. no fucking point in arguing with someone who is so clearly deluded with the idea that you are what you look like. read up on kleinfelter's. read about turner's. read about SRY translocation. read about androgen insensitivity. then fucking tell us if you still think gender is as black and white as you make it out to be. you know next to nothing about either of these people and yet you just assume they're deciding what they want to be.
I'm guessing there are no mods on at the moment, 'cause he'd have been warned/banned for his first post alone.
It's all good if people switch genders, and it's great that TL is so accepting. But I sincerely hope that people don't overestimate, hype up, or go wild about the transgender thing. It's what happened with Scarlett - she's great, don't get me wrong, but from the very start when she was an obscure random name that beat a Korean, she was incredibly over-hyped (like when she got knocked out of the tournament I checked TL and there was already a 8 page fan club).
still dont get it why they ban him fckin cencorship, he wasnt offending just telling his opinion .. i have no problem with transgenders but i still get his point, if hussein bolt would change sex and breaks all female running records is it fair/legit??
You forgot the crown rule of TL is; be nice, be safe, and avoid saying anything controversial in fear of the ban hammer as older men fear god; can be a mighty tool to avoid trolling but when freedom of expression has to be sacrificed in the name of peace and equality, how much do you value that peace and equality, knowing that it is only bestowed upon you by those who see you not as the person you are but simply a IP address and viewership number to be crushed like a bug if need be...
Agreed, the fundamental point here to drive home is that pretty much any coverage of Scarlett has been on the lines of "this girl rocks the world, taking down all these men" etc etc...
I'm sorry but the first thing that appeared when she joined Eclypsia was how it was awesome it was to have a successful woman pro-gamer who had a track record of sticking it to Koreans and that's how I've thought of her until now; I'm sorry but I feel so cheated having cheered her on all these times, telling people how PROUD I was that women were finally breaking through in SC and not just a side-game joke like SlayersEve vs ST-Aprodite, only to find out that the woman I was cheering on is a man in the process/who has become a woman?
I'm sorry but this is a blatant manipulation of the psyche of the Starcraft community, because if Scarlett shows up BEING HER/HIS/IT's self and we don't get this "women can do it too" PR campaign there's nothing wrong, I had a girl in school who wanted to be a boy, changed her name and got the surgery as an adult, she(he) is cool now. I understand this wasn't her fault, she deserves the attention for her results and I'm sure everyone was just as confused about this, fair play. However it would be incredibly daft, unfair and problematic if either LeiYa or Scarlett are shone as the beacon of women gamers(I know LeiYa won't be as she was known as PuCK for ages now and was known as a man) when I'll go out on a limb and say that any female gamer's would not look to these two as their predecessors/idols, because at the end of the day, beyond all the 21st century, you can be who you want to be bollocks, these two WERE men, and may technically still be(I guess would make for the best kind of gay friend?)
I'm going to refute my own advice and risk the banhammer by saying this; we as a community need to be very careful about idolizing/encouraging such intimate details about the lives of our stars, adding transgenders to the list of popular fringe personalities in the Starcraft community is IMO only going to keep us at the fringe of society, atleast while the community has so much dirty underwear floating around the internet(this being not the worst but maybe the oddest?). Although I understand transgender as a personal choice I think it begs the question if it is a personal issue why does it have any place being a well-known and accepted fact in the community?
I don't exactly get how this "manipulation of the psyche of the Starcraft community" transpired, because if I remember correctly, Scarlett made a name for herself by playing in the IPL 4 open bracket and during the same event, if not within minutes of her video interview, someone on reddit posted claims about her being a transgender (mostly because of the adam's apple that was visible during the interview with Hot_Bid, as well as her voice seeming a bit weird) which was confirmed within hours.
That's all I'm saying here, nobody was manipulated. This information has, for better or for worse, been made public from the get-go.
I do agree that there's an excess of zeal in the moderation and banhammering of controversial posts on topics like transgendered people and even homosexuality, but you might want to take that one to the Website Feedback section.
Well for someone like myself who has time to watch the games/read the highlights but couldn't give a rat's ass about interviews and other such stuff, this Scarlett thing went over my head until I read this post. Yeah, I'd checked her out and been like "no way"(tbh my radar was tingling when I first saw pics as well), but looking back this is the kind of stuff im referring to.
Source:"Scarlett Joins Eclypsia" http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329727 Excerpt: "The 18 year old Canadian only started playing a year ago and first started to make a name for herself this Autumn, winning two Iron Lady Champion Cups".
Ok so just to start off, why has nobody taken those titles off her and given them to the runner ups? As recently as 04/2012 it shows her winning an "Iron Lady Leetgion" Tournament, this must have been long after she had come out the the community, still shitting on real females in an all-girl cup, cleverly lying on this screen at ESL to do it:
Requirements
Current requirements: Gender Your gender has to be the following one.
Required gender: f Gameaccount Players must have added the following gameaccount to their account to play in this league.
Type: StarCraft II Nick#Character code (Battle.net US) (click here to add) min. members: 1
Next up we have this:
Source:http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Female_SC2_Scene Excerpt: In July, Scarlett made history, being the first woman to win a major mixed gender championship as she won the Canadian national finals for the 2012 StarCraft II World Championship. A week later, Aphrodite, too, made history being the first woman to have a broadcasted game in GOMTV's SC2 production
Scarlett is the first woman to win a major tournament and the only female player to win a national finals in WCS, not to mention a continental finals.
I have made my point now what say thou?
She was personally allowed by the organizers of those tournaments to play in them. Iron Lady cups fully knew the situation. Scarlett has never tried to hide her gender situation; it was almost immediately known after IPL. It is not her fault that you are unaware of these events and are only now outraged.
Generally, people who identify as women are referred to as "female". It is clear that you cannot accept this, and there is nothing that can really be changed about that. While it is within your rights to have your opinions on the matters and I do hope that there isn't rampant mod action, it is quite insulting and hurtful to state that some people who identify as female should not be allowed to live how they would like to, just because it offends some people's sensibilities.
I'm sorry and this may sound horribly 18th Century, but I don't "identify" as a man. I was born one, confirmed by a doctor with 10 years of education and extensive experience. It's written in your passport and that's that, Male or Female, some Men may be gay or want to be women, some women may want to be men , but your still defined by which genitals you are born with.
What about intersex people who are born with ambiguous genitalia? Doctors have a 50% chance of assigning them right at birth, the other 50% will retransition to their identified gender later on in life just like trans people. Gender isn't defined by genitals, only assigned sex is defined by them. Gender is rooted in the Hypothalamic bed nucleus of the Stria terminalis that is sexually dimorphic and can develop in such way that it will match that of the opposite sex's.
So yes, 18th century stuff regarding this are outdated, this is the 21th century and the medical field has evolved since then. It is not a psychopathology or baseless claiming, it is a scientifically replicable and provable neuroanatomical (therefore physical) medical condition caused by a genetic and/or hormonal birth defect. Not one's genitals are going to tell them what they are, but their midbrain. It's just a rare enough and difficult to examine condition that it's impractical to assign people based on that at birth.
On November 26 2012 19:18 TheDraken wrote: [quote]
-.- seriously?
I have a dick between my legs which means I can't turn up to women's sports. I can't break the women's 100m because I'm a man and women are slower, even if I was convinced I was a woman. Your not a woman or a man because you DECIDE; it's a permanent biological condition and plastic surgery does not address this. So yeah, holding up Scarlett as the women's role model when she is biologically a man is abit silly no?
as far as i'm concerned you're a dick entirely. no fucking point in arguing with someone who is so clearly deluded with the idea that you are what you look like. read up on kleinfelter's. read about turner's. read about SRY translocation. read about androgen insensitivity. then fucking tell us if you still think gender is as black and white as you make it out to be. you know next to nothing about either of these people and yet you just assume they're deciding what they want to be.
I'm guessing there are no mods on at the moment, 'cause he'd have been warned/banned for his first post alone.
It's all good if people switch genders, and it's great that TL is so accepting. But I sincerely hope that people don't overestimate, hype up, or go wild about the transgender thing. It's what happened with Scarlett - she's great, don't get me wrong, but from the very start when she was an obscure random name that beat a Korean, she was incredibly over-hyped (like when she got knocked out of the tournament I checked TL and there was already a 8 page fan club).
still dont get it why they ban him fckin cencorship, he wasnt offending just telling his opinion .. i have no problem with transgenders but i still get his point, if hussein bolt would change sex and breaks all female running records is it fair/legit??
You forgot the crown rule of TL is; be nice, be safe, and avoid saying anything controversial in fear of the ban hammer as older men fear god; can be a mighty tool to avoid trolling but when freedom of expression has to be sacrificed in the name of peace and equality, how much do you value that peace and equality, knowing that it is only bestowed upon you by those who see you not as the person you are but simply a IP address and viewership number to be crushed like a bug if need be...
Agreed, the fundamental point here to drive home is that pretty much any coverage of Scarlett has been on the lines of "this girl rocks the world, taking down all these men" etc etc...
I'm sorry but the first thing that appeared when she joined Eclypsia was how it was awesome it was to have a successful woman pro-gamer who had a track record of sticking it to Koreans and that's how I've thought of her until now; I'm sorry but I feel so cheated having cheered her on all these times, telling people how PROUD I was that women were finally breaking through in SC and not just a side-game joke like SlayersEve vs ST-Aprodite, only to find out that the woman I was cheering on is a man in the process/who has become a woman?
I'm sorry but this is a blatant manipulation of the psyche of the Starcraft community, because if Scarlett shows up BEING HER/HIS/IT's self and we don't get this "women can do it too" PR campaign there's nothing wrong, I had a girl in school who wanted to be a boy, changed her name and got the surgery as an adult, she(he) is cool now. I understand this wasn't her fault, she deserves the attention for her results and I'm sure everyone was just as confused about this, fair play. However it would be incredibly daft, unfair and problematic if either LeiYa or Scarlett are shone as the beacon of women gamers(I know LeiYa won't be as she was known as PuCK for ages now and was known as a man) when I'll go out on a limb and say that any female gamer's would not look to these two as their predecessors/idols, because at the end of the day, beyond all the 21st century, you can be who you want to be bollocks, these two WERE men, and may technically still be(I guess would make for the best kind of gay friend?)
I'm going to refute my own advice and risk the banhammer by saying this; we as a community need to be very careful about idolizing/encouraging such intimate details about the lives of our stars, adding transgenders to the list of popular fringe personalities in the Starcraft community is IMO only going to keep us at the fringe of society, atleast while the community has so much dirty underwear floating around the internet(this being not the worst but maybe the oddest?). Although I understand transgender as a personal choice I think it begs the question if it is a personal issue why does it have any place being a well-known and accepted fact in the community?
I don't exactly get how this "manipulation of the psyche of the Starcraft community" transpired, because if I remember correctly, Scarlett made a name for herself by playing in the IPL 4 open bracket and during the same event, if not within minutes of her video interview, someone on reddit posted claims about her being a transgender (mostly because of the adam's apple that was visible during the interview with Hot_Bid, as well as her voice seeming a bit weird) which was confirmed within hours.
That's all I'm saying here, nobody was manipulated. This information has, for better or for worse, been made public from the get-go.
I do agree that there's an excess of zeal in the moderation and banhammering of controversial posts on topics like transgendered people and even homosexuality, but you might want to take that one to the Website Feedback section.
Well for someone like myself who has time to watch the games/read the highlights but couldn't give a rat's ass about interviews and other such stuff, this Scarlett thing went over my head until I read this post. Yeah, I'd checked her out and been like "no way"(tbh my radar was tingling when I first saw pics as well), but looking back this is the kind of stuff im referring to.
Source:"Scarlett Joins Eclypsia" http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329727 Excerpt: "The 18 year old Canadian only started playing a year ago and first started to make a name for herself this Autumn, winning two Iron Lady Champion Cups".
Ok so just to start off, why has nobody taken those titles off her and given them to the runner ups? As recently as 04/2012 it shows her winning an "Iron Lady Leetgion" Tournament, this must have been long after she had come out the the community, still shitting on real females in an all-girl cup, cleverly lying on this screen at ESL to do it:
Requirements
Current requirements: Gender Your gender has to be the following one.
Required gender: f Gameaccount Players must have added the following gameaccount to their account to play in this league.
Type: StarCraft II Nick#Character code (Battle.net US) (click here to add) min. members: 1
Next up we have this:
Source:http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Female_SC2_Scene Excerpt: In July, Scarlett made history, being the first woman to win a major mixed gender championship as she won the Canadian national finals for the 2012 StarCraft II World Championship. A week later, Aphrodite, too, made history being the first woman to have a broadcasted game in GOMTV's SC2 production
Scarlett is the first woman to win a major tournament and the only female player to win a national finals in WCS, not to mention a continental finals.
I have made my point now what say thou?
She was personally allowed by the organizers of those tournaments to play in them. Iron Lady cups fully knew the situation. Scarlett has never tried to hide her gender situation; it was almost immediately known after IPL. It is not her fault that you are unaware of these events and are only now outraged.
Generally, people who identify as women are referred to as "female". It is clear that you cannot accept this, and there is nothing that can really be changed about that. While it is within your rights to have your opinions on the matters and I do hope that there isn't rampant mod action, it is quite insulting and hurtful to state that some people who identify as female should not be allowed to live how they would like to, just because it offends some people's sensibilities.
I'm sorry and this may sound horribly 18th Century, but I don't "identify" as a man. I was born one, confirmed by a doctor with 10 years of education and extensive experience. It's written in your passport and that's that, Male or Female, some Men may be gay or want to be women, some women may want to be men , but your still defined by which genitals you are born with.
Again, if you read my post, I couldn't give a rat's ass about how Scarlett or LeiYa choose to behave as long as they won't do it around me. I'm not taking away from their basic civil rights, I care about upholding the worthiness of a title like "first woman to...." when it's NOT TRUE. Don't you get it, at the bottom of it all. I take this community seriously but to me this would be like MVP going in the record books to have won his G5L trophy because he played in an online league once called G5L and won rather than what actually supposed to happen.
You know, the way an actual woman was supposed to receive this accolade.
Thus this title is a false flag operation, but hell obviously no one gives a shit about the integrity of the game, we just want to be all peace and happy and cool you can be who you want to be.
G
Honestly dude you're making a huge deal out of something that really isn't. In the end, it was up to the admins and participants to allow her to play in the tournament and since they were okay with that it doesn't really matter what your or I think. You're free to discredit her accomplishments but please don't act as if you have the authority to dictate what others should think and do, especially for a reason as pompous and self-righteous as "the bible of sc" (lol).
Also you realize that you complained about over-moderation on this delicate topic (which I don't disagree with) and then proceed to try and force your own views upon others and tell them what to think and what's good for the scene? (lol; and also it's just your opinion) A bit hypocritical if you ask me.
Anyway I recommend that you take a chill pill and focus on more important issues.
On November 26 2012 19:25 GeNeSiDe wrote: [quote] I have a dick between my legs which means I can't turn up to women's sports. I can't break the women's 100m because I'm a man and women are slower, even if I was convinced I was a woman. Your not a woman or a man because you DECIDE; it's a permanent biological condition and plastic surgery does not address this. So yeah, holding up Scarlett as the women's role model when she is biologically a man is abit silly no?
as far as i'm concerned you're a dick entirely. no fucking point in arguing with someone who is so clearly deluded with the idea that you are what you look like. read up on kleinfelter's. read about turner's. read about SRY translocation. read about androgen insensitivity. then fucking tell us if you still think gender is as black and white as you make it out to be. you know next to nothing about either of these people and yet you just assume they're deciding what they want to be.
I'm guessing there are no mods on at the moment, 'cause he'd have been warned/banned for his first post alone.
It's all good if people switch genders, and it's great that TL is so accepting. But I sincerely hope that people don't overestimate, hype up, or go wild about the transgender thing. It's what happened with Scarlett - she's great, don't get me wrong, but from the very start when she was an obscure random name that beat a Korean, she was incredibly over-hyped (like when she got knocked out of the tournament I checked TL and there was already a 8 page fan club).
still dont get it why they ban him fckin cencorship, he wasnt offending just telling his opinion .. i have no problem with transgenders but i still get his point, if hussein bolt would change sex and breaks all female running records is it fair/legit??
You forgot the crown rule of TL is; be nice, be safe, and avoid saying anything controversial in fear of the ban hammer as older men fear god; can be a mighty tool to avoid trolling but when freedom of expression has to be sacrificed in the name of peace and equality, how much do you value that peace and equality, knowing that it is only bestowed upon you by those who see you not as the person you are but simply a IP address and viewership number to be crushed like a bug if need be...
Agreed, the fundamental point here to drive home is that pretty much any coverage of Scarlett has been on the lines of "this girl rocks the world, taking down all these men" etc etc...
I'm sorry but the first thing that appeared when she joined Eclypsia was how it was awesome it was to have a successful woman pro-gamer who had a track record of sticking it to Koreans and that's how I've thought of her until now; I'm sorry but I feel so cheated having cheered her on all these times, telling people how PROUD I was that women were finally breaking through in SC and not just a side-game joke like SlayersEve vs ST-Aprodite, only to find out that the woman I was cheering on is a man in the process/who has become a woman?
I'm sorry but this is a blatant manipulation of the psyche of the Starcraft community, because if Scarlett shows up BEING HER/HIS/IT's self and we don't get this "women can do it too" PR campaign there's nothing wrong, I had a girl in school who wanted to be a boy, changed her name and got the surgery as an adult, she(he) is cool now. I understand this wasn't her fault, she deserves the attention for her results and I'm sure everyone was just as confused about this, fair play. However it would be incredibly daft, unfair and problematic if either LeiYa or Scarlett are shone as the beacon of women gamers(I know LeiYa won't be as she was known as PuCK for ages now and was known as a man) when I'll go out on a limb and say that any female gamer's would not look to these two as their predecessors/idols, because at the end of the day, beyond all the 21st century, you can be who you want to be bollocks, these two WERE men, and may technically still be(I guess would make for the best kind of gay friend?)
I'm going to refute my own advice and risk the banhammer by saying this; we as a community need to be very careful about idolizing/encouraging such intimate details about the lives of our stars, adding transgenders to the list of popular fringe personalities in the Starcraft community is IMO only going to keep us at the fringe of society, atleast while the community has so much dirty underwear floating around the internet(this being not the worst but maybe the oddest?). Although I understand transgender as a personal choice I think it begs the question if it is a personal issue why does it have any place being a well-known and accepted fact in the community?
I don't exactly get how this "manipulation of the psyche of the Starcraft community" transpired, because if I remember correctly, Scarlett made a name for herself by playing in the IPL 4 open bracket and during the same event, if not within minutes of her video interview, someone on reddit posted claims about her being a transgender (mostly because of the adam's apple that was visible during the interview with Hot_Bid, as well as her voice seeming a bit weird) which was confirmed within hours.
That's all I'm saying here, nobody was manipulated. This information has, for better or for worse, been made public from the get-go.
I do agree that there's an excess of zeal in the moderation and banhammering of controversial posts on topics like transgendered people and even homosexuality, but you might want to take that one to the Website Feedback section.
Well for someone like myself who has time to watch the games/read the highlights but couldn't give a rat's ass about interviews and other such stuff, this Scarlett thing went over my head until I read this post. Yeah, I'd checked her out and been like "no way"(tbh my radar was tingling when I first saw pics as well), but looking back this is the kind of stuff im referring to.
Source:"Scarlett Joins Eclypsia" http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329727 Excerpt: "The 18 year old Canadian only started playing a year ago and first started to make a name for herself this Autumn, winning two Iron Lady Champion Cups".
Ok so just to start off, why has nobody taken those titles off her and given them to the runner ups? As recently as 04/2012 it shows her winning an "Iron Lady Leetgion" Tournament, this must have been long after she had come out the the community, still shitting on real females in an all-girl cup, cleverly lying on this screen at ESL to do it:
Requirements
Current requirements: Gender Your gender has to be the following one.
Required gender: f Gameaccount Players must have added the following gameaccount to their account to play in this league.
Type: StarCraft II Nick#Character code (Battle.net US) (click here to add) min. members: 1
Next up we have this:
Source:http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Female_SC2_Scene Excerpt: In July, Scarlett made history, being the first woman to win a major mixed gender championship as she won the Canadian national finals for the 2012 StarCraft II World Championship. A week later, Aphrodite, too, made history being the first woman to have a broadcasted game in GOMTV's SC2 production
Scarlett is the first woman to win a major tournament and the only female player to win a national finals in WCS, not to mention a continental finals.
I have made my point now what say thou?
She was personally allowed by the organizers of those tournaments to play in them. Iron Lady cups fully knew the situation. Scarlett has never tried to hide her gender situation; it was almost immediately known after IPL. It is not her fault that you are unaware of these events and are only now outraged.
Generally, people who identify as women are referred to as "female". It is clear that you cannot accept this, and there is nothing that can really be changed about that. While it is within your rights to have your opinions on the matters and I do hope that there isn't rampant mod action, it is quite insulting and hurtful to state that some people who identify as female should not be allowed to live how they would like to, just because it offends some people's sensibilities.
I'm sorry and this may sound horribly 18th Century, but I don't "identify" as a man. I was born one, confirmed by a doctor with 10 years of education and extensive experience. It's written in your passport and that's that, Male or Female, some Men may be gay or want to be women, some women may want to be men , but your still defined by which genitals you are born with.
Again, if you read my post, I couldn't give a rat's ass about how Scarlett or LeiYa choose to behave as long as they won't do it around me. I'm not taking away from their basic civil rights, I care about upholding the worthiness of a title like "first woman to...." when it's NOT TRUE. Don't you get it, at the bottom of it all. I take this community seriously but to me this would be like MVP going in the record books to have won his G5L trophy because he played in an online league once called G5L and won rather than what actually supposed to happen.
You know, the way an actual woman was supposed to receive this accolade.
Thus this title is a false flag operation, but hell obviously no one gives a shit about the integrity of the game, we just want to be all peace and happy and cool you can be who you want to be.
G
Honestly dude you're making a huge deal out of something that really isn't. In the end, it was up to the admins and participants to allow her to play in the tournament and since they were okay with that it doesn't really matter what your or I think. You're free to discredit her accomplishments but please don't act as if you have the authority to dictate what others should think and do, especially for a reason as pompous and self-righteous as "the bible of sc" (lol).
Also you realize that you complained about over-moderation on this delicate topic (which I don't disagree with) and then proceed to try and force your own views upon others and tell them what to think and what's good for the scene? (lol; and also it's just your opinion) A bit hypocritical if you ask me.
Anyway I recommend that you take a chill pill and focus on more important issues.
That's the problem with the community, you take the outsider's view and just say "well thats wrong, thats dumb, why are you saying that" without addressing the content. Im not trying to silence other's opinions(moderation) I am stating my viewpoint in a convincing way. If you think calling a trans a defect is less insulting than what I posted, nice. I'm taking this seriously because I take this game seriously, and this community seriously. Without this we would not be the people we are today, and the lenient fashion you guys are acting ignoring the fact that I have shown you 2-3 examples of lies about Scarlett's accomplishments written incorrectly in her Liquipedia page, makes me believe you jsut dont care about this game and it's legacy as much as I do. If 61* was big because there were a few more games per season, imagine Scarlett*(technically a man but they let her play womens tournaments because she has a disorder that makes her feel like a woman). And Yes I own 2 copies of the SC Bible, have you even read it? Shall I start quoting you the quickest televised sc1 game, the longest, the best win streak? It exists already, it's not some figment of my imagination. And if the second one comes out years down the line to look back on WoL and I see Scarlett's name in it, best believe it will be a final reminder to how pathetically this community acted to preserve the honor of it's records.
**** it, I declare myself GSL champion while I'm at it.
On November 26 2012 19:34 TheDraken wrote: [quote]
as far as i'm concerned you're a dick entirely. no fucking point in arguing with someone who is so clearly deluded with the idea that you are what you look like. read up on kleinfelter's. read about turner's. read about SRY translocation. read about androgen insensitivity. then fucking tell us if you still think gender is as black and white as you make it out to be. you know next to nothing about either of these people and yet you just assume they're deciding what they want to be.
I'm guessing there are no mods on at the moment, 'cause he'd have been warned/banned for his first post alone.
It's all good if people switch genders, and it's great that TL is so accepting. But I sincerely hope that people don't overestimate, hype up, or go wild about the transgender thing. It's what happened with Scarlett - she's great, don't get me wrong, but from the very start when she was an obscure random name that beat a Korean, she was incredibly over-hyped (like when she got knocked out of the tournament I checked TL and there was already a 8 page fan club).
still dont get it why they ban him fckin cencorship, he wasnt offending just telling his opinion .. i have no problem with transgenders but i still get his point, if hussein bolt would change sex and breaks all female running records is it fair/legit??
You forgot the crown rule of TL is; be nice, be safe, and avoid saying anything controversial in fear of the ban hammer as older men fear god; can be a mighty tool to avoid trolling but when freedom of expression has to be sacrificed in the name of peace and equality, how much do you value that peace and equality, knowing that it is only bestowed upon you by those who see you not as the person you are but simply a IP address and viewership number to be crushed like a bug if need be...
Agreed, the fundamental point here to drive home is that pretty much any coverage of Scarlett has been on the lines of "this girl rocks the world, taking down all these men" etc etc...
I'm sorry but the first thing that appeared when she joined Eclypsia was how it was awesome it was to have a successful woman pro-gamer who had a track record of sticking it to Koreans and that's how I've thought of her until now; I'm sorry but I feel so cheated having cheered her on all these times, telling people how PROUD I was that women were finally breaking through in SC and not just a side-game joke like SlayersEve vs ST-Aprodite, only to find out that the woman I was cheering on is a man in the process/who has become a woman?
I'm sorry but this is a blatant manipulation of the psyche of the Starcraft community, because if Scarlett shows up BEING HER/HIS/IT's self and we don't get this "women can do it too" PR campaign there's nothing wrong, I had a girl in school who wanted to be a boy, changed her name and got the surgery as an adult, she(he) is cool now. I understand this wasn't her fault, she deserves the attention for her results and I'm sure everyone was just as confused about this, fair play. However it would be incredibly daft, unfair and problematic if either LeiYa or Scarlett are shone as the beacon of women gamers(I know LeiYa won't be as she was known as PuCK for ages now and was known as a man) when I'll go out on a limb and say that any female gamer's would not look to these two as their predecessors/idols, because at the end of the day, beyond all the 21st century, you can be who you want to be bollocks, these two WERE men, and may technically still be(I guess would make for the best kind of gay friend?)
I'm going to refute my own advice and risk the banhammer by saying this; we as a community need to be very careful about idolizing/encouraging such intimate details about the lives of our stars, adding transgenders to the list of popular fringe personalities in the Starcraft community is IMO only going to keep us at the fringe of society, atleast while the community has so much dirty underwear floating around the internet(this being not the worst but maybe the oddest?). Although I understand transgender as a personal choice I think it begs the question if it is a personal issue why does it have any place being a well-known and accepted fact in the community?
I don't exactly get how this "manipulation of the psyche of the Starcraft community" transpired, because if I remember correctly, Scarlett made a name for herself by playing in the IPL 4 open bracket and during the same event, if not within minutes of her video interview, someone on reddit posted claims about her being a transgender (mostly because of the adam's apple that was visible during the interview with Hot_Bid, as well as her voice seeming a bit weird) which was confirmed within hours.
That's all I'm saying here, nobody was manipulated. This information has, for better or for worse, been made public from the get-go.
I do agree that there's an excess of zeal in the moderation and banhammering of controversial posts on topics like transgendered people and even homosexuality, but you might want to take that one to the Website Feedback section.
Well for someone like myself who has time to watch the games/read the highlights but couldn't give a rat's ass about interviews and other such stuff, this Scarlett thing went over my head until I read this post. Yeah, I'd checked her out and been like "no way"(tbh my radar was tingling when I first saw pics as well), but looking back this is the kind of stuff im referring to.
Source:"Scarlett Joins Eclypsia" http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329727 Excerpt: "The 18 year old Canadian only started playing a year ago and first started to make a name for herself this Autumn, winning two Iron Lady Champion Cups".
Ok so just to start off, why has nobody taken those titles off her and given them to the runner ups? As recently as 04/2012 it shows her winning an "Iron Lady Leetgion" Tournament, this must have been long after she had come out the the community, still shitting on real females in an all-girl cup, cleverly lying on this screen at ESL to do it:
Requirements
Current requirements: Gender Your gender has to be the following one.
Required gender: f Gameaccount Players must have added the following gameaccount to their account to play in this league.
Type: StarCraft II Nick#Character code (Battle.net US) (click here to add) min. members: 1
Next up we have this:
Source:http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Female_SC2_Scene Excerpt: In July, Scarlett made history, being the first woman to win a major mixed gender championship as she won the Canadian national finals for the 2012 StarCraft II World Championship. A week later, Aphrodite, too, made history being the first woman to have a broadcasted game in GOMTV's SC2 production
Scarlett is the first woman to win a major tournament and the only female player to win a national finals in WCS, not to mention a continental finals.
I have made my point now what say thou?
She was personally allowed by the organizers of those tournaments to play in them. Iron Lady cups fully knew the situation. Scarlett has never tried to hide her gender situation; it was almost immediately known after IPL. It is not her fault that you are unaware of these events and are only now outraged.
Generally, people who identify as women are referred to as "female". It is clear that you cannot accept this, and there is nothing that can really be changed about that. While it is within your rights to have your opinions on the matters and I do hope that there isn't rampant mod action, it is quite insulting and hurtful to state that some people who identify as female should not be allowed to live how they would like to, just because it offends some people's sensibilities.
I'm sorry and this may sound horribly 18th Century, but I don't "identify" as a man. I was born one, confirmed by a doctor with 10 years of education and extensive experience. It's written in your passport and that's that, Male or Female, some Men may be gay or want to be women, some women may want to be men , but your still defined by which genitals you are born with.
Again, if you read my post, I couldn't give a rat's ass about how Scarlett or LeiYa choose to behave as long as they won't do it around me. I'm not taking away from their basic civil rights, I care about upholding the worthiness of a title like "first woman to...." when it's NOT TRUE. Don't you get it, at the bottom of it all. I take this community seriously but to me this would be like MVP going in the record books to have won his G5L trophy because he played in an online league once called G5L and won rather than what actually supposed to happen.
You know, the way an actual woman was supposed to receive this accolade.
Thus this title is a false flag operation, but hell obviously no one gives a shit about the integrity of the game, we just want to be all peace and happy and cool you can be who you want to be.
G
Honestly dude you're making a huge deal out of something that really isn't. In the end, it was up to the admins and participants to allow her to play in the tournament and since they were okay with that it doesn't really matter what your or I think. You're free to discredit her accomplishments but please don't act as if you have the authority to dictate what others should think and do, especially for a reason as pompous and self-righteous as "the bible of sc" (lol).
Also you realize that you complained about over-moderation on this delicate topic (which I don't disagree with) and then proceed to try and force your own views upon others and tell them what to think and what's good for the scene? (lol; and also it's just your opinion) A bit hypocritical if you ask me.
Anyway I recommend that you take a chill pill and focus on more important issues.
That's the problem with the community, you take the outsider's view and just say "well thats wrong, thats dumb, why are you saying that" without addressing the content. Im not trying to silence other's opinions(moderation) I am stating my viewpoint in a convincing way. If you think calling a trans a defect is less insulting than what I posted, nice. I'm taking this seriously because I take this game seriously, and this community seriously. Without this we would not be the people we are today, and the lenient fashion you guys are acting ignoring the fact that I have shown you 2-3 examples of lies about Scarlett's accomplishments written incorrectly in her Liquipedia page, makes me believe you jsut dont care about this game and it's legacy as much as I do. If 61* was big because there were a few more games per season, imagine Scarlett*(technically a man but they let her play womens tournaments because she has a disorder that makes her feel like a woman). And Yes I own 2 copies of the SC Bible, have you even read it? Shall I start quoting you the quickest televised sc1 game, the longest, the best win streak? It exists already, it's not some figment of my imagination. And if the second one comes out years down the line to look back on WoL and I see Scarlett's name in it, best believe it will be a final reminder to how pathetically this community acted to preserve the honor of it's records.
**** it, I declare myself GSL champion while I'm at it.
Not going to argue with you but I'd like to point out that you're part of an overwhelmed minority if you truly care that much about the game and its legacy. But hey ESPORTS IS SRS BSNS what the fuck do I know? It's not enough to enjoy games played competitively in a civil manner...
Good luck with whatever you're trying to accomplish, but you might want to step off that high horse or the door frame might hit you right in the forehead on your way out.
Trans women have no natural advantage at SC2 over women who were born as female. The fact that more girls don't play SC2 at high level is arguably purely social, as a result of girls playing video games being frowned upon, let alone playing it a lot, very seriously and openly.
In physical sports it's a different case, but even then, hormone replacement therapy atrophies and changes the muscle mass to match that of females', although the bone structure remains the same; but even in serious sports there has been not one case where they decided in a trans woman's favor to allow her to enter women's tournaments, e.g. Renée Richards.
You hide behind civil words but again, your content spews aggression. Your trying to get me to shut up by pointing out I am part of an "overwhelmed minority", funny, so because there's not as many like me as there are like you I don't count? I wonder what Scarlett would say about that....
High horse, there is no high horse, anything with money involved is SRS BSNS(funny how you can't be serious in that bit, seriously when you read my post is that how it sounds in your head?).
I'm actually more upset by the flippant way you view the legacy of SC than I was about the violating offence, but hey, I guess if we all just want to watch SC2, hold hands and sing koombaya until it dissapears from the history of E-Sports because we didn't try to abide by some sense of sporting integrity....
On November 27 2012 05:42 Lynda wrote: Trans women have no natural advantage at SC2 over women who were born as female. The fact that more girls don't play SC2 at high level is arguably purely social, as a result of girls playing video games being frowned upon, let alone playing it a lot, very seriously and openly.
In physical sports it's a different case, but even then, hormone replacement therapy atrophies and changes the muscle mass to match that of females', although the bone structure remains the same; but even in serious sports there has been not one case where they decided in a trans woman's favor to allow her to enter women's tournaments, e.g. Renée Richards.
I'm done with the arguments.
Male chess players are still better than female chess players. And I don't think female playing chess is frowned upon. Male and female not just have physical power differences, their brains are different too, hormones too. I would still say that a trans woman has advantage over other women at SC2.
On November 27 2012 05:42 Lynda wrote: Trans women have no natural advantage at SC2 over women who were born as female. The fact that more girls don't play SC2 at high level is arguably purely social, as a result of girls playing video games being frowned upon, let alone playing it a lot, very seriously and openly.
In physical sports it's a different case, but even then, hormone replacement therapy atrophies and changes the muscle mass to match that of females', although the bone structure remains the same; but even in serious sports there has been not one case where they decided in a trans woman's favor to allow her to enter women's tournaments, e.g. Renée Richards.
I'm done with the arguments.
Male chess players are still better than female chess players. And I don't think female playing chess is frowned upon. Male and female not just have physical power differences, their brains are different too, hormones too. I would still say that a trans woman has advantage over other women at SC2.
On November 26 2012 19:34 TheDraken wrote: [quote]
as far as i'm concerned you're a dick entirely. no fucking point in arguing with someone who is so clearly deluded with the idea that you are what you look like. read up on kleinfelter's. read about turner's. read about SRY translocation. read about androgen insensitivity. then fucking tell us if you still think gender is as black and white as you make it out to be. you know next to nothing about either of these people and yet you just assume they're deciding what they want to be.
I'm guessing there are no mods on at the moment, 'cause he'd have been warned/banned for his first post alone.
It's all good if people switch genders, and it's great that TL is so accepting. But I sincerely hope that people don't overestimate, hype up, or go wild about the transgender thing. It's what happened with Scarlett - she's great, don't get me wrong, but from the very start when she was an obscure random name that beat a Korean, she was incredibly over-hyped (like when she got knocked out of the tournament I checked TL and there was already a 8 page fan club).
still dont get it why they ban him fckin cencorship, he wasnt offending just telling his opinion .. i have no problem with transgenders but i still get his point, if hussein bolt would change sex and breaks all female running records is it fair/legit??
You forgot the crown rule of TL is; be nice, be safe, and avoid saying anything controversial in fear of the ban hammer as older men fear god; can be a mighty tool to avoid trolling but when freedom of expression has to be sacrificed in the name of peace and equality, how much do you value that peace and equality, knowing that it is only bestowed upon you by those who see you not as the person you are but simply a IP address and viewership number to be crushed like a bug if need be...
Agreed, the fundamental point here to drive home is that pretty much any coverage of Scarlett has been on the lines of "this girl rocks the world, taking down all these men" etc etc...
I'm sorry but the first thing that appeared when she joined Eclypsia was how it was awesome it was to have a successful woman pro-gamer who had a track record of sticking it to Koreans and that's how I've thought of her until now; I'm sorry but I feel so cheated having cheered her on all these times, telling people how PROUD I was that women were finally breaking through in SC and not just a side-game joke like SlayersEve vs ST-Aprodite, only to find out that the woman I was cheering on is a man in the process/who has become a woman?
I'm sorry but this is a blatant manipulation of the psyche of the Starcraft community, because if Scarlett shows up BEING HER/HIS/IT's self and we don't get this "women can do it too" PR campaign there's nothing wrong, I had a girl in school who wanted to be a boy, changed her name and got the surgery as an adult, she(he) is cool now. I understand this wasn't her fault, she deserves the attention for her results and I'm sure everyone was just as confused about this, fair play. However it would be incredibly daft, unfair and problematic if either LeiYa or Scarlett are shone as the beacon of women gamers(I know LeiYa won't be as she was known as PuCK for ages now and was known as a man) when I'll go out on a limb and say that any female gamer's would not look to these two as their predecessors/idols, because at the end of the day, beyond all the 21st century, you can be who you want to be bollocks, these two WERE men, and may technically still be(I guess would make for the best kind of gay friend?)
I'm going to refute my own advice and risk the banhammer by saying this; we as a community need to be very careful about idolizing/encouraging such intimate details about the lives of our stars, adding transgenders to the list of popular fringe personalities in the Starcraft community is IMO only going to keep us at the fringe of society, atleast while the community has so much dirty underwear floating around the internet(this being not the worst but maybe the oddest?). Although I understand transgender as a personal choice I think it begs the question if it is a personal issue why does it have any place being a well-known and accepted fact in the community?
I don't exactly get how this "manipulation of the psyche of the Starcraft community" transpired, because if I remember correctly, Scarlett made a name for herself by playing in the IPL 4 open bracket and during the same event, if not within minutes of her video interview, someone on reddit posted claims about her being a transgender (mostly because of the adam's apple that was visible during the interview with Hot_Bid, as well as her voice seeming a bit weird) which was confirmed within hours.
That's all I'm saying here, nobody was manipulated. This information has, for better or for worse, been made public from the get-go.
I do agree that there's an excess of zeal in the moderation and banhammering of controversial posts on topics like transgendered people and even homosexuality, but you might want to take that one to the Website Feedback section.
Well for someone like myself who has time to watch the games/read the highlights but couldn't give a rat's ass about interviews and other such stuff, this Scarlett thing went over my head until I read this post. Yeah, I'd checked her out and been like "no way"(tbh my radar was tingling when I first saw pics as well), but looking back this is the kind of stuff im referring to.
Source:"Scarlett Joins Eclypsia" http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329727 Excerpt: "The 18 year old Canadian only started playing a year ago and first started to make a name for herself this Autumn, winning two Iron Lady Champion Cups".
Ok so just to start off, why has nobody taken those titles off her and given them to the runner ups? As recently as 04/2012 it shows her winning an "Iron Lady Leetgion" Tournament, this must have been long after she had come out the the community, still shitting on real females in an all-girl cup, cleverly lying on this screen at ESL to do it:
Requirements
Current requirements: Gender Your gender has to be the following one.
Required gender: f Gameaccount Players must have added the following gameaccount to their account to play in this league.
Type: StarCraft II Nick#Character code (Battle.net US) (click here to add) min. members: 1
Next up we have this:
Source:http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Female_SC2_Scene Excerpt: In July, Scarlett made history, being the first woman to win a major mixed gender championship as she won the Canadian national finals for the 2012 StarCraft II World Championship. A week later, Aphrodite, too, made history being the first woman to have a broadcasted game in GOMTV's SC2 production
Scarlett is the first woman to win a major tournament and the only female player to win a national finals in WCS, not to mention a continental finals.
I have made my point now what say thou?
She was personally allowed by the organizers of those tournaments to play in them. Iron Lady cups fully knew the situation. Scarlett has never tried to hide her gender situation; it was almost immediately known after IPL. It is not her fault that you are unaware of these events and are only now outraged.
Generally, people who identify as women are referred to as "female". It is clear that you cannot accept this, and there is nothing that can really be changed about that. While it is within your rights to have your opinions on the matters and I do hope that there isn't rampant mod action, it is quite insulting and hurtful to state that some people who identify as female should not be allowed to live how they would like to, just because it offends some people's sensibilities.
I'm sorry and this may sound horribly 18th Century, but I don't "identify" as a man. I was born one, confirmed by a doctor with 10 years of education and extensive experience. It's written in your passport and that's that, Male or Female, some Men may be gay or want to be women, some women may want to be men , but your still defined by which genitals you are born with.
Again, if you read my post, I couldn't give a rat's ass about how Scarlett or LeiYa choose to behave as long as they won't do it around me. I'm not taking away from their basic civil rights, I care about upholding the worthiness of a title like "first woman to...." when it's NOT TRUE. Don't you get it, at the bottom of it all. I take this community seriously but to me this would be like MVP going in the record books to have won his G5L trophy because he played in an online league once called G5L and won rather than what actually supposed to happen.
You know, the way an actual woman was supposed to receive this accolade.
Thus this title is a false flag operation, but hell obviously no one gives a shit about the integrity of the game, we just want to be all peace and happy and cool you can be who you want to be.
G
Honestly dude you're making a huge deal out of something that really isn't. In the end, it was up to the admins and participants to allow her to play in the tournament and since they were okay with that it doesn't really matter what your or I think. You're free to discredit her accomplishments but please don't act as if you have the authority to dictate what others should think and do, especially for a reason as pompous and self-righteous as "the bible of sc" (lol).
Also you realize that you complained about over-moderation on this delicate topic (which I don't disagree with) and then proceed to try and force your own views upon others and tell them what to think and what's good for the scene? (lol; and also it's just your opinion) A bit hypocritical if you ask me.
Anyway I recommend that you take a chill pill and focus on more important issues.
That's the problem with the community, you take the outsider's view and just say "well thats wrong, thats dumb, why are you saying that" without addressing the content. Im not trying to silence other's opinions(moderation) I am stating my viewpoint in a convincing way. If you think calling a trans a defect is less insulting than what I posted, nice. I'm taking this seriously because I take this game seriously, and this community seriously. Without this we would not be the people we are today, and the lenient fashion you guys are acting ignoring the fact that I have shown you 2-3 examples of lies about Scarlett's accomplishments written incorrectly in her Liquipedia page, makes me believe you jsut dont care about this game and it's legacy as much as I do. If 61* was big because there were a few more games per season, imagine Scarlett*(technically a man but they let her play womens tournaments because she has a disorder that makes her feel like a woman). And Yes I own 2 copies of the SC Bible, have you even read it? Shall I start quoting you the quickest televised sc1 game, the longest, the best win streak? It exists already, it's not some figment of my imagination. And if the second one comes out years down the line to look back on WoL and I see Scarlett's name in it, best believe it will be a final reminder to how pathetically this community acted to preserve the honor of it's records.
**** it, I declare myself GSL champion while I'm at it.
i didn't know scarlett was actually a man untill I read her messages on stardusts twitch chat. clearly it's proof that men and women shouldn't be aloud to play games together because they don't type the same and clearly don't use the computer the same way. all gays/transvestites should be banned from esports forever NO EXCEPTIONS
I hope you understand that what you're saying although true is ridiculous and you should focus on why you are giving israel 30 billion a year to bomb children and trying to stop that with the same passion, not if transvestites are beating BAD players in starcraft 2 tournaments that will never really matter,with the exception of wcs canada ..
EDIT: This isn`t a serious post. jesus christ
except for this part : you should focus on why you are giving israel 30 billion a year to bomb children and trying to stop that with the same passion,
On November 27 2012 05:42 Lynda wrote: Trans women have no natural advantage at SC2 over women who were born as female. The fact that more girls don't play SC2 at high level is arguably purely social, as a result of girls playing video games being frowned upon, let alone playing it a lot, very seriously and openly.
In physical sports it's a different case, but even then, hormone replacement therapy atrophies and changes the muscle mass to match that of females', although the bone structure remains the same; but even in serious sports there has been not one case where they decided in a trans woman's favor to allow her to enter women's tournaments, e.g. Renée Richards.
I'm done with the arguments.
Male chess players are still better than female chess players.
It's kind of a silly debate, but I can't help but get sucked in. ZerglingTwins is right here. It's really not a coincidence that Scarlett is 10x better than all the other girls playing SC2. I have no problem with Scarlett at all.. but I don't think she should be claiming prizes in IronLady, etc.
On November 27 2012 05:42 Lynda wrote: Trans women have no natural advantage at SC2 over women who were born as female. The fact that more girls don't play SC2 at high level is arguably purely social, as a result of girls playing video games being frowned upon, let alone playing it a lot, very seriously and openly.
In physical sports it's a different case, but even then, hormone replacement therapy atrophies and changes the muscle mass to match that of females', although the bone structure remains the same; but even in serious sports there has been not one case where they decided in a trans woman's favor to allow her to enter women's tournaments, e.g. Renée Richards.
I'm done with the arguments.
Male chess players are still better than female chess players. And I don't think female playing chess is frowned upon. Male and female not just have physical power differences, their brains are different too, hormones too. I would still say that a trans woman has advantage over other women at SC2.
How many females vs males pursue chess? How long have males had an established tradition of pursuing chess vs females? Does the fact that the vast majority of the worlds' political leadership being male 'prove' that male brains are better designed for political leadership?
On November 27 2012 05:42 Lynda wrote: Trans women have no natural advantage at SC2 over women who were born as female. The fact that more girls don't play SC2 at high level is arguably purely social, as a result of girls playing video games being frowned upon, let alone playing it a lot, very seriously and openly.
In physical sports it's a different case, but even then, hormone replacement therapy atrophies and changes the muscle mass to match that of females', although the bone structure remains the same; but even in serious sports there has been not one case where they decided in a trans woman's favor to allow her to enter women's tournaments, e.g. Renée Richards.
I'm done with the arguments.
Male chess players are still better than female chess players. And I don't think female playing chess is frowned upon. Male and female not just have physical power differences, their brains are different too, hormones too. I would still say that a trans woman has advantage over other women at SC2.
How many females vs males pursue chess? How long have males had an established tradition of pursuing chess vs females? Does the fact that the vast majority of the worlds' political leadership being male 'prove' that male brains are better designed for political leadership?
Politics is not a competitive sport. Women have been some of the greatest political leaders of all time.
Yes gender bias exists in SC2 & Chess. But I don't think it's the core reason you don't see Magnus Carlsen getting whooped by women.
Gender has a social component, which is a rather nouveau mindet, that I'm totally down with. But it also has a rather simple biological concept.
Having a particular genitalia does force specific biochemistry on you, and certain biochemistry does correspond to certain things. The effects of testosterone on one's competitive mentality have long been understood...
I mean.. people get yanked from the olympics and competitive sporting events all the time for this sort of thing. Of course.. it's rather ludicrous in SC, but whatever.
Gender is a social thing, not a biological thing. Having particular genitalia does not force a gender on you. Saying that someone has to identify as male based on their physical features on birth is exactly the kind of oppression that makes the lives of transgender people so difficult.
There being more male chess champions is a social thing.
On November 27 2012 05:42 Lynda wrote: Trans women have no natural advantage at SC2 over women who were born as female. The fact that more girls don't play SC2 at high level is arguably purely social, as a result of girls playing video games being frowned upon, let alone playing it a lot, very seriously and openly.
In physical sports it's a different case, but even then, hormone replacement therapy atrophies and changes the muscle mass to match that of females', although the bone structure remains the same; but even in serious sports there has been not one case where they decided in a trans woman's favor to allow her to enter women's tournaments, e.g. Renée Richards.
I'm done with the arguments.
Male chess players are still better than female chess players. And I don't think female playing chess is frowned upon. Male and female not just have physical power differences, their brains are different too, hormones too. I would still say that a trans woman has advantage over other women at SC2.
How many females vs males pursue chess? How long have males had an established tradition of pursuing chess vs females? Does the fact that the vast majority of the worlds' political leadership being male 'prove' that male brains are better designed for political leadership?
The reason why there are fewer female chess players, is still a brain and hormone issue, they are not that interested in it, and not inspired by it. Differences are still on brain and hormone. When women win or lose a game, they don't feel that much thrill and disappointment as men do. So they don't have that much motivation in games generally.
Because the brain is entirely figured out, and everything said in every scientific research paper ever published is true on it's own merit. Yeah, this debate sure is silly.
Help me understand this situation, because frankly I have no idea what's happening around here and the terms being thrown around go way over my head.
So first the easy question : When people say puck revealed his true gender, do they mean he switched to female or was he a female that transgendered to male and is going back to his true gender, so to speak ? I didn't really understood what the deal with him was.
Secondly, I recently understood Scarlett was a man, which was surprising because I assumed the internet was providing some more wind for the hate windmill, like it always does when it sees women achieving results. Now I don't know what the situation exactly is with her, but people are getting distracted by stupid assumptions. There is nothing that makes men better at gaming than women, the only thing holding them back are social shackles, so to speak.
For example, people bring up the chess example. Remember those chess champions got educated playing chess since their youngest age, that's what makes them so good. But parents assume chess is going to be played by boys, just like videogames are played by boys and they'd rather try to teach their girls something like knitting ( bad example, can't come up with another one atm) because they assume it will fit their girl/boy better, just because that's what EVERYONE is doing , aka the socially acceptable thing to do. ( it's a bit of an extreme explanation )
Someone actually did the test once in russia, can't remember the girl's name exactly, but her father, a good chess player, educated his daughter like he wanted to turn her into a chess champion,like what happened with most of the reigning champions. And she grew up like those champions and became obscenely good at the game. She was beating men with more experience, older ones, overall being a very very good chess player. But then again, after some time people refused to compete against her anymore because she was a woman. ( see : stereotype ) and they had (in their narrow socially acceptable view ) nothing to win and everything to lose by playing vs her. No competition eventually discourages her and tones down her skills a bit.
On November 27 2012 06:18 NumberFive wrote: Help me understand this situation, because frankly I have no idea what's happening around here and the terms being thrown around go way over my head.
So first the easy question : When people say puck revealed his true gender, do they mean he switched to female or was he a female that transgendered to male and is going back to his true gender, so to speak ? I didn't really understood what the deal with him was.
Secondly, I recently understood Scarlett was a man, which was surprising because I assumed the internet was providing some more wind for the hate windmill, like it always does when it sees women achieving results. Now I don't know what the situation exactly is with her, but people are getting distracted by stupid assumptions. There is nothing that makes men better at gaming than women, the only thing holding them back are social shackles, so to speak.
For example, people bring up the chess example. Remember those chess champions got educated playing chess since their youngest age, that's what makes them so good. But parents assume chess is going to be played by boys, just like videogames are played by boys and they'd rather try to teach their girls something like knitting ( bad example, can't come up with another one atm) because they assume it will fit their girl/boy better, just because that's what EVERYONE is doing , aka the socially acceptable thing to do. ( it's a bit of an extreme explanation )
Someone actually did the test once in russia, can't remember the girl's name exactly, but her father, a good chess player, educated his daughter like he wanted to turn her into a chess champion,like what happened with most of the reigning champions. And she grew up like those champions and became obscenely good at the game. She was beating men with more experience, older ones, overall being a very very good chess player. But then again, after some time people refused to compete against her anymore because she was a woman. ( see : stereotype ) and they had (in their narrow socially acceptable view ) nothing to win and everything to lose by playing vs her. No competition eventually discourages her and tones down her skills a bit.
puCK aka now LeiYa is MtF so she's likely going to (or has possibly already begun) medically/physically transitioning from male to female, but in either case she's already made the social transition, she's already referred to by female pronouns and terms by accepting people.
Scarlett is also MtF and she came out on reddit after her first appearance at IPL4.
That "experiment" was also done in Hungary; the Polgár sisters (in particular Judit Polgár) have been among the top female chess players due to being raised from an early age basically as if they were male, teaching them chess.
In 1991, Polgár achieved the title of Grandmaster at the age of 15 years and 4 months, the youngest person ever to do so at that time.
interesting read.
Also another example for this issue :
Here, studying civil engineering, you don't see many women around. This is NOT because women are worse than men at math, but because parents/people automatically assume they are, based on social stereotypes ( engineers are men, nurses are women, elementary school teachers are women, secretaries are women and so on. ). Because they grow up with that in mind, they are unconsciously modelled like the society wants them to, thus they grow less interested in math and more interested in other things, IN GENERAL. nowadays, society grows more open minded and these shackles are starting to break, thus we're starting to see more women in math professions and vice-versa.
Same for gaming. We don't have a huge sample of female sc2 gamers ( I heard CS has quite a community ? ) so we don't have a legit sample size to compare skill and performances. The female gaming community is so small, yet again because society grew up thinking boys plays videogames and girls play with dolls. People who notice that binding aspect either ignore it because being different than the rest is always frowned upon, either they embrace their true aspirations and do what they feel more comfortable doing ( girl gamers, male nurses etc. ) The ones who don't notice it, perpetuate the trend.
I don't know if i'm getting the point across as it's badly exaplined, but I found the discussion earlier in this thread amazingly ignorant.
also the wiki Lynda ( post above ) linked is pretty informative. This woman beats those chess grandmasters because she was raised like they were. Nothing stops women from being as good/better etc than men at chess, it's just society's not viewing chess as a women's sport, so the sample size is too small. Imagine chess was a sport accepted for both men and women, and there were champions raised like that on both sides equally, with an equal community behind it. The women and men would be as good as eachother in chess, the same goes for videogames. If videogames were accepted as a boy/girl thing, and a community develops where the female/male sample sizes are fairly equal, you could put men and women up against aechother in videogames and their results would be even. Nothing gives the one an advantage over the other.
On November 27 2012 05:42 Lynda wrote: Trans women have no natural advantage at SC2 over women who were born as female. The fact that more girls don't play SC2 at high level is arguably purely social, as a result of girls playing video games being frowned upon, let alone playing it a lot, very seriously and openly.
In physical sports it's a different case, but even then, hormone replacement therapy atrophies and changes the muscle mass to match that of females', although the bone structure remains the same; but even in serious sports there has been not one case where they decided in a trans woman's favor to allow her to enter women's tournaments, e.g. Renée Richards.
I'm done with the arguments.
Male chess players are still better than female chess players. And I don't think female playing chess is frowned upon. Male and female not just have physical power differences, their brains are different too, hormones too. I would still say that a trans woman has advantage over other women at SC2.
How many females vs males pursue chess? How long have males had an established tradition of pursuing chess vs females? Does the fact that the vast majority of the worlds' political leadership being male 'prove' that male brains are better designed for political leadership?
The reason why there are fewer female chess players, is still a brain and hormone issue, they are not that interested in it, and not inspired by it. Differences are still on brain and hormone. When women win or lose a game, they don't feel that much thrill and disappointment as men do. So they don't have that much motivation in games generally.
The reason there are fewer black chess players, is still a brain and race issue, they are not that interested in it, and not inspired by it. The difference are still on brain and race. When black man win or lose a game, they dont feel that much thrill and disappointment as white/asians do. So they dont have that much motivation in games generally.
The reason there are fewer brazilian hockey players is still a brain and hormone issue, they are not that interested in it and not inspired by it. Differences are still on brain and hormone. When brazilians win or lose a game, they dont feel that much thrill and disappointment as men do. So they don't have that much motivation in games generally
The reason there are fewer non-Korean SC2 champions is still a brain and hormone issue, they are not that interested in it and not inspired by it. Differences are still on brain and hormone. When non-Koreans win or lose a game, they dont feel that much thril and disappointment as Koreans do. So they don't have that much motivation in games generally.
Do you see how absurd this sounds? I dont understand how psuedo-scientific justifications that 'women are biologically different' lets you ignore the obvious historical fact: chess has been a male game, males have been encouraged to pursue it and females have not. After literally 2000 years of male domination of an arena the fact that now, in the last 30-40 years of women's emancipation/equality, the output of female chess players/champions is significantly smaller than males is probably a factor of history and society rather than 'brain and hormone' and their 'inability to enjoy winning'
That 4th paragraph was a well-spoken version of what I was trying to get across, happy to see there are people with the right ideas defending this thread.
On November 26 2012 19:34 TheDraken wrote: as far as i'm concerned you're a dick entirely. no fucking point in arguing with someone who is so clearly deluded with the idea that you are what you look like. read up on kleinfelter's. read about turner's. read about SRY translocation. read about androgen insensitivity. then fucking tell us if you still think gender is as black and white as you make it out to be. you know next to nothing about either of these people and yet you just assume they're deciding what they want to be.
I love how stupid people always ignore the truth and never discuss this, thus making their opinion totally irrelevant. I AM ENTITLED TO MY OPINION, HURR DURR.
Had to check after clicking through to the last page that I was actually still in the same thread. I'd worry about you people but, well, you know. You make for a fun drinking game at least.
GL to both, glad to see Juan seemingly maturing a little (improve yourself and improve your play and all), hope he'll get his shot. And that LeiYa will get a chance to show us some good stuffs. ROOT (aside from ToD and I suppose majOr but he's leaving) has been a bit on the background of late, at least for me, looking forward to see a new star of theirs shine.
Very happy to see this. Watching the Puck (now Leiya) stream a lot and she is quite somehting. Awsome macroµ skills. Very high potential and I can't wait to see her perform in tournaments.
Can you please feature her stream? Her stream is still unfeatured.
After literally 2000 years of male domination of an arena the fact that now, in the last 30-40 years of women's emancipation/equality, the output of female chess players/champions is significantly smaller than males is probably a factor of history and society rather than 'brain and hormone' and their 'inability to enjoy winning'
Actually the modern rules for chess didn't emerge until the late 1400s early 1500s -_-
MajOr, while you are indeed one of the best foreign terrans out there by your recent results, consider joining Team Liquid if things don't work out with the KeSPA teams GLHF hope the best for MajOr.
I'm guessing there are no mods on at the moment, 'cause he'd have been warned/banned for his first post alone.
It's all good if people switch genders, and it's great that TL is so accepting. But I sincerely hope that people don't overestimate, hype up, or go wild about the transgender thing. It's what happened with Scarlett - she's great, don't get me wrong, but from the very start when she was an obscure random name that beat a Korean, she was incredibly over-hyped (like when she got knocked out of the tournament I checked TL and there was already a 8 page fan club).
still dont get it why they ban him fckin cencorship, he wasnt offending just telling his opinion .. i have no problem with transgenders but i still get his point, if hussein bolt would change sex and breaks all female running records is it fair/legit??
You forgot the crown rule of TL is; be nice, be safe, and avoid saying anything controversial in fear of the ban hammer as older men fear god; can be a mighty tool to avoid trolling but when freedom of expression has to be sacrificed in the name of peace and equality, how much do you value that peace and equality, knowing that it is only bestowed upon you by those who see you not as the person you are but simply a IP address and viewership number to be crushed like a bug if need be...
Agreed, the fundamental point here to drive home is that pretty much any coverage of Scarlett has been on the lines of "this girl rocks the world, taking down all these men" etc etc...
I'm sorry but the first thing that appeared when she joined Eclypsia was how it was awesome it was to have a successful woman pro-gamer who had a track record of sticking it to Koreans and that's how I've thought of her until now; I'm sorry but I feel so cheated having cheered her on all these times, telling people how PROUD I was that women were finally breaking through in SC and not just a side-game joke like SlayersEve vs ST-Aprodite, only to find out that the woman I was cheering on is a man in the process/who has become a woman?
I'm sorry but this is a blatant manipulation of the psyche of the Starcraft community, because if Scarlett shows up BEING HER/HIS/IT's self and we don't get this "women can do it too" PR campaign there's nothing wrong, I had a girl in school who wanted to be a boy, changed her name and got the surgery as an adult, she(he) is cool now. I understand this wasn't her fault, she deserves the attention for her results and I'm sure everyone was just as confused about this, fair play. However it would be incredibly daft, unfair and problematic if either LeiYa or Scarlett are shone as the beacon of women gamers(I know LeiYa won't be as she was known as PuCK for ages now and was known as a man) when I'll go out on a limb and say that any female gamer's would not look to these two as their predecessors/idols, because at the end of the day, beyond all the 21st century, you can be who you want to be bollocks, these two WERE men, and may technically still be(I guess would make for the best kind of gay friend?)
I'm going to refute my own advice and risk the banhammer by saying this; we as a community need to be very careful about idolizing/encouraging such intimate details about the lives of our stars, adding transgenders to the list of popular fringe personalities in the Starcraft community is IMO only going to keep us at the fringe of society, atleast while the community has so much dirty underwear floating around the internet(this being not the worst but maybe the oddest?). Although I understand transgender as a personal choice I think it begs the question if it is a personal issue why does it have any place being a well-known and accepted fact in the community?
I don't exactly get how this "manipulation of the psyche of the Starcraft community" transpired, because if I remember correctly, Scarlett made a name for herself by playing in the IPL 4 open bracket and during the same event, if not within minutes of her video interview, someone on reddit posted claims about her being a transgender (mostly because of the adam's apple that was visible during the interview with Hot_Bid, as well as her voice seeming a bit weird) which was confirmed within hours.
That's all I'm saying here, nobody was manipulated. This information has, for better or for worse, been made public from the get-go.
I do agree that there's an excess of zeal in the moderation and banhammering of controversial posts on topics like transgendered people and even homosexuality, but you might want to take that one to the Website Feedback section.
Well for someone like myself who has time to watch the games/read the highlights but couldn't give a rat's ass about interviews and other such stuff, this Scarlett thing went over my head until I read this post. Yeah, I'd checked her out and been like "no way"(tbh my radar was tingling when I first saw pics as well), but looking back this is the kind of stuff im referring to.
Source:"Scarlett Joins Eclypsia" http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329727 Excerpt: "The 18 year old Canadian only started playing a year ago and first started to make a name for herself this Autumn, winning two Iron Lady Champion Cups".
Ok so just to start off, why has nobody taken those titles off her and given them to the runner ups? As recently as 04/2012 it shows her winning an "Iron Lady Leetgion" Tournament, this must have been long after she had come out the the community, still shitting on real females in an all-girl cup, cleverly lying on this screen at ESL to do it:
Requirements
Current requirements: Gender Your gender has to be the following one.
Required gender: f Gameaccount Players must have added the following gameaccount to their account to play in this league.
Type: StarCraft II Nick#Character code (Battle.net US) (click here to add) min. members: 1
Next up we have this:
Source:http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Female_SC2_Scene Excerpt: In July, Scarlett made history, being the first woman to win a major mixed gender championship as she won the Canadian national finals for the 2012 StarCraft II World Championship. A week later, Aphrodite, too, made history being the first woman to have a broadcasted game in GOMTV's SC2 production
Scarlett is the first woman to win a major tournament and the only female player to win a national finals in WCS, not to mention a continental finals.
I have made my point now what say thou?
She was personally allowed by the organizers of those tournaments to play in them. Iron Lady cups fully knew the situation. Scarlett has never tried to hide her gender situation; it was almost immediately known after IPL. It is not her fault that you are unaware of these events and are only now outraged.
Generally, people who identify as women are referred to as "female". It is clear that you cannot accept this, and there is nothing that can really be changed about that. While it is within your rights to have your opinions on the matters and I do hope that there isn't rampant mod action, it is quite insulting and hurtful to state that some people who identify as female should not be allowed to live how they would like to, just because it offends some people's sensibilities.
I'm sorry and this may sound horribly 18th Century, but I don't "identify" as a man. I was born one, confirmed by a doctor with 10 years of education and extensive experience. It's written in your passport and that's that, Male or Female, some Men may be gay or want to be women, some women may want to be men , but your still defined by which genitals you are born with.
Again, if you read my post, I couldn't give a rat's ass about how Scarlett or LeiYa choose to behave as long as they won't do it around me. I'm not taking away from their basic civil rights, I care about upholding the worthiness of a title like "first woman to...." when it's NOT TRUE. Don't you get it, at the bottom of it all. I take this community seriously but to me this would be like MVP going in the record books to have won his G5L trophy because he played in an online league once called G5L and won rather than what actually supposed to happen.
You know, the way an actual woman was supposed to receive this accolade.
Thus this title is a false flag operation, but hell obviously no one gives a shit about the integrity of the game, we just want to be all peace and happy and cool you can be who you want to be.
G
Honestly dude you're making a huge deal out of something that really isn't. In the end, it was up to the admins and participants to allow her to play in the tournament and since they were okay with that it doesn't really matter what your or I think. You're free to discredit her accomplishments but please don't act as if you have the authority to dictate what others should think and do, especially for a reason as pompous and self-righteous as "the bible of sc" (lol).
Also you realize that you complained about over-moderation on this delicate topic (which I don't disagree with) and then proceed to try and force your own views upon others and tell them what to think and what's good for the scene? (lol; and also it's just your opinion) A bit hypocritical if you ask me.
Anyway I recommend that you take a chill pill and focus on more important issues.
That's the problem with the community, you take the outsider's view and just say "well thats wrong, thats dumb, why are you saying that" without addressing the content. Im not trying to silence other's opinions(moderation) I am stating my viewpoint in a convincing way. If you think calling a trans a defect is less insulting than what I posted, nice. I'm taking this seriously because I take this game seriously, and this community seriously. Without this we would not be the people we are today, and the lenient fashion you guys are acting ignoring the fact that I have shown you 2-3 examples of lies about Scarlett's accomplishments written incorrectly in her Liquipedia page, makes me believe you jsut dont care about this game and it's legacy as much as I do. If 61* was big because there were a few more games per season, imagine Scarlett*(technically a man but they let her play womens tournaments because she has a disorder that makes her feel like a woman). And Yes I own 2 copies of the SC Bible, have you even read it? Shall I start quoting you the quickest televised sc1 game, the longest, the best win streak? It exists already, it's not some figment of my imagination. And if the second one comes out years down the line to look back on WoL and I see Scarlett's name in it, best believe it will be a final reminder to how pathetically this community acted to preserve the honor of it's records.
**** it, I declare myself GSL champion while I'm at it.
i didn't know scarlett was actually a man untill I read her messages on stardusts twitch chat. clearly it's proof that men and women shouldn't be aloud to play games together because they don't type the same and clearly don't use the computer the same way. all gays/transvestites should be banned from esports forever NO EXCEPTIONS
I hope you understand that what you're saying although true is ridiculous and you should focus on why you are giving israel 30 billion a year to bomb children and trying to stop that with the same passion, not if transvestites are beating BAD players in starcraft 2 tournaments that will never really matter,with the exception of wcs canada ..
well that escalated quickly.
can we simmer down on the trans talk? the anger over it is kinda ruining this awesome announcement.
On November 27 2012 13:57 Ry2D2 wrote: MajOr, while you are indeed one of the best foreign terrans out there by your recent results, consider joining Team Liquid if things don't work out with the KeSPA teams GLHF hope the best for MajOr.
I don't know how interested liquid would be...Major is very skilled but he is definitely not necessarily the personality type for liquid.
This thread reeks of people trying to delegitimise Scarlett's accomplishments. Take away the gender issue for a second - she still qualified as one of the best, if not THE best North American SC2 player in the scene. Her debut run at IPL was incredibly deep for an at-the-time unknown. How big of an issue is it really that she's winning Iron Lady and Zowie Divina and whatever other female tournaments? You don't see the other competitors on those competitions complaining about having to compete with her because of some conjectural-but-mostly-unproven advantage she may have because of her DNA. If they don't care, it's hard to see why anyone else should have an issue with it. And I find it hard to believe that whenever a "real" girl gamer does achieve success in the SC2 scene that she will begrudge Scarlett or LeiYa or anyone else the title of "first female to be able to compete with the boys" - that is, until people try to delegitimise her by accusing her of getting ahead through her looks, etc.
On November 27 2012 13:40 MatiaasS ! wrote: Interesting choice wanting to go to a KeSPA Team being a foreigner player, and not a very successful one. Anyway, good luck John/Juan
They're looking for practice partners, so lack of success should not matter all that much.
Major gave shout outs to a bunch of the Root members, but noticeably absent was their ace, Rotterdam. WHAT'S THE DEAL?! Obviously some drama between the two when you don't mention your team's top player, Rotti... *shakes head slowly, dramatically...*
Major have said this have been his goal for years, I'm not sure why people are hyping it up now just because he leaves root. Good luck to him but I believe it when I see it.
On November 27 2012 13:57 Ry2D2 wrote: MajOr, while you are indeed one of the best foreign terrans out there by your recent results, consider joining Team Liquid if things don't work out with the KeSPA teams GLHF hope the best for MajOr.
I don't know how interested liquid would be...Major is very skilled but he is definitely not necessarily the personality type for liquid.
If we're brutally candid, he isn't handsome enough for Liquid. It's rather apparent that looks is one of the criteria for Liquid's hiring policy, and major doesn't exactly fit that profile. Would fit right in at EG, though.
Anyways, I think it'd be much cooler if he actually made it into SKT or any KESPA team indeed.
In 1991, Polgár achieved the title of Grandmaster at the age of 15 years and 4 months, the youngest person ever to do so at that time.
interesting read.
Also another example for this issue :
Here, studying civil engineering, you don't see many women around. This is NOT because women are worse than men at math, but because parents/people automatically assume they are, based on social stereotypes ( engineers are men, nurses are women, elementary school teachers are women, secretaries are women and so on. ). Because they grow up with that in mind, they are unconsciously modelled like the society wants them to, thus they grow less interested in math and more interested in other things, IN GENERAL. nowadays, society grows more open minded and these shackles are starting to break, thus we're starting to see more women in math professions and vice-versa.
Same for gaming. We don't have a huge sample of female sc2 gamers ( I heard CS has quite a community ? ) so we don't have a legit sample size to compare skill and performances. The female gaming community is so small, yet again because society grew up thinking boys plays videogames and girls play with dolls. People who notice that binding aspect either ignore it because being different than the rest is always frowned upon, either they embrace their true aspirations and do what they feel more comfortable doing ( girl gamers, male nurses etc. ) The ones who don't notice it, perpetuate the trend.
I don't know if i'm getting the point across as it's badly exaplined, but I found the discussion earlier in this thread amazingly ignorant.
also the wiki Lynda ( post above ) linked is pretty informative. This woman beats those chess grandmasters because she was raised like they were. Nothing stops women from being as good/better etc than men at chess, it's just society's not viewing chess as a women's sport, so the sample size is too small. Imagine chess was a sport accepted for both men and women, and there were champions raised like that on both sides equally, with an equal community behind it. The women and men would be as good as eachother in chess, the same goes for videogames. If videogames were accepted as a boy/girl thing, and a community develops where the female/male sample sizes are fairly equal, you could put men and women up against aechother in videogames and their results would be even. Nothing gives the one an advantage over the other.
This is a pretty beautiful post, it's the rationale behind many of my previous posts complaining over the coverage women E-sports have gotten thus far. They are pigeonholed into roles based on whether they are hot or not, or judged for their appearance over and above their abilities. There's a common misconception over many aspects of genderisation in society and what is 'natural'. One innocuous one is that pink is a feminine colour, which has actually changed over time.
Incidentally, I do take issue with some of what you say, but not necessarily because I disagree but because I am curious. I've often heard that women have better multitasking ability than men for example, and that would surely, if true reflect some kind of cognitive difference being displayed between the genders. Another factoid I read years a go, (and can't find the literature for) is that men and women have the same average IQs, but that men occupy the bottom and top 5% in much higher proportions than women.
Now, that's not necessarily evidence for inherent differences existing either, but it does raise the question as to why this is so. When referring to environmental/cultural reasons, the only guess I could provide is that perhaps males on average are treated somewhat differently at some formative stage of their cognitive development.
I'm guessing there are no mods on at the moment, 'cause he'd have been warned/banned for his first post alone.
It's all good if people switch genders, and it's great that TL is so accepting. But I sincerely hope that people don't overestimate, hype up, or go wild about the transgender thing. It's what happened with Scarlett - she's great, don't get me wrong, but from the very start when she was an obscure random name that beat a Korean, she was incredibly over-hyped (like when she got knocked out of the tournament I checked TL and there was already a 8 page fan club).
still dont get it why they ban him fckin cencorship, he wasnt offending just telling his opinion .. i have no problem with transgenders but i still get his point, if hussein bolt would change sex and breaks all female running records is it fair/legit??
You forgot the crown rule of TL is; be nice, be safe, and avoid saying anything controversial in fear of the ban hammer as older men fear god; can be a mighty tool to avoid trolling but when freedom of expression has to be sacrificed in the name of peace and equality, how much do you value that peace and equality, knowing that it is only bestowed upon you by those who see you not as the person you are but simply a IP address and viewership number to be crushed like a bug if need be...
Agreed, the fundamental point here to drive home is that pretty much any coverage of Scarlett has been on the lines of "this girl rocks the world, taking down all these men" etc etc...
I'm sorry but the first thing that appeared when she joined Eclypsia was how it was awesome it was to have a successful woman pro-gamer who had a track record of sticking it to Koreans and that's how I've thought of her until now; I'm sorry but I feel so cheated having cheered her on all these times, telling people how PROUD I was that women were finally breaking through in SC and not just a side-game joke like SlayersEve vs ST-Aprodite, only to find out that the woman I was cheering on is a man in the process/who has become a woman?
I'm sorry but this is a blatant manipulation of the psyche of the Starcraft community, because if Scarlett shows up BEING HER/HIS/IT's self and we don't get this "women can do it too" PR campaign there's nothing wrong, I had a girl in school who wanted to be a boy, changed her name and got the surgery as an adult, she(he) is cool now. I understand this wasn't her fault, she deserves the attention for her results and I'm sure everyone was just as confused about this, fair play. However it would be incredibly daft, unfair and problematic if either LeiYa or Scarlett are shone as the beacon of women gamers(I know LeiYa won't be as she was known as PuCK for ages now and was known as a man) when I'll go out on a limb and say that any female gamer's would not look to these two as their predecessors/idols, because at the end of the day, beyond all the 21st century, you can be who you want to be bollocks, these two WERE men, and may technically still be(I guess would make for the best kind of gay friend?)
I'm going to refute my own advice and risk the banhammer by saying this; we as a community need to be very careful about idolizing/encouraging such intimate details about the lives of our stars, adding transgenders to the list of popular fringe personalities in the Starcraft community is IMO only going to keep us at the fringe of society, atleast while the community has so much dirty underwear floating around the internet(this being not the worst but maybe the oddest?). Although I understand transgender as a personal choice I think it begs the question if it is a personal issue why does it have any place being a well-known and accepted fact in the community?
I don't exactly get how this "manipulation of the psyche of the Starcraft community" transpired, because if I remember correctly, Scarlett made a name for herself by playing in the IPL 4 open bracket and during the same event, if not within minutes of her video interview, someone on reddit posted claims about her being a transgender (mostly because of the adam's apple that was visible during the interview with Hot_Bid, as well as her voice seeming a bit weird) which was confirmed within hours.
That's all I'm saying here, nobody was manipulated. This information has, for better or for worse, been made public from the get-go.
I do agree that there's an excess of zeal in the moderation and banhammering of controversial posts on topics like transgendered people and even homosexuality, but you might want to take that one to the Website Feedback section.
Well for someone like myself who has time to watch the games/read the highlights but couldn't give a rat's ass about interviews and other such stuff, this Scarlett thing went over my head until I read this post. Yeah, I'd checked her out and been like "no way"(tbh my radar was tingling when I first saw pics as well), but looking back this is the kind of stuff im referring to.
Source:"Scarlett Joins Eclypsia" http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329727 Excerpt: "The 18 year old Canadian only started playing a year ago and first started to make a name for herself this Autumn, winning two Iron Lady Champion Cups".
Ok so just to start off, why has nobody taken those titles off her and given them to the runner ups? As recently as 04/2012 it shows her winning an "Iron Lady Leetgion" Tournament, this must have been long after she had come out the the community, still shitting on real females in an all-girl cup, cleverly lying on this screen at ESL to do it:
Requirements
Current requirements: Gender Your gender has to be the following one.
Required gender: f Gameaccount Players must have added the following gameaccount to their account to play in this league.
Type: StarCraft II Nick#Character code (Battle.net US) (click here to add) min. members: 1
Next up we have this:
Source:http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Female_SC2_Scene Excerpt: In July, Scarlett made history, being the first woman to win a major mixed gender championship as she won the Canadian national finals for the 2012 StarCraft II World Championship. A week later, Aphrodite, too, made history being the first woman to have a broadcasted game in GOMTV's SC2 production
Scarlett is the first woman to win a major tournament and the only female player to win a national finals in WCS, not to mention a continental finals.
I have made my point now what say thou?
She was personally allowed by the organizers of those tournaments to play in them. Iron Lady cups fully knew the situation. Scarlett has never tried to hide her gender situation; it was almost immediately known after IPL. It is not her fault that you are unaware of these events and are only now outraged.
Generally, people who identify as women are referred to as "female". It is clear that you cannot accept this, and there is nothing that can really be changed about that. While it is within your rights to have your opinions on the matters and I do hope that there isn't rampant mod action, it is quite insulting and hurtful to state that some people who identify as female should not be allowed to live how they would like to, just because it offends some people's sensibilities.
I'm sorry and this may sound horribly 18th Century, but I don't "identify" as a man. I was born one, confirmed by a doctor with 10 years of education and extensive experience. It's written in your passport and that's that, Male or Female, some Men may be gay or want to be women, some women may want to be men , but your still defined by which genitals you are born with.
Again, if you read my post, I couldn't give a rat's ass about how Scarlett or LeiYa choose to behave as long as they won't do it around me. I'm not taking away from their basic civil rights, I care about upholding the worthiness of a title like "first woman to...." when it's NOT TRUE. Don't you get it, at the bottom of it all. I take this community seriously but to me this would be like MVP going in the record books to have won his G5L trophy because he played in an online league once called G5L and won rather than what actually supposed to happen.
You know, the way an actual woman was supposed to receive this accolade.
Thus this title is a false flag operation, but hell obviously no one gives a shit about the integrity of the game, we just want to be all peace and happy and cool you can be who you want to be.
G
Honestly dude you're making a huge deal out of something that really isn't. In the end, it was up to the admins and participants to allow her to play in the tournament and since they were okay with that it doesn't really matter what your or I think. You're free to discredit her accomplishments but please don't act as if you have the authority to dictate what others should think and do, especially for a reason as pompous and self-righteous as "the bible of sc" (lol).
Also you realize that you complained about over-moderation on this delicate topic (which I don't disagree with) and then proceed to try and force your own views upon others and tell them what to think and what's good for the scene? (lol; and also it's just your opinion) A bit hypocritical if you ask me.
Anyway I recommend that you take a chill pill and focus on more important issues.
That's the problem with the community, you take the outsider's view and just say "well thats wrong, thats dumb, why are you saying that" without addressing the content. Im not trying to silence other's opinions(moderation) I am stating my viewpoint in a convincing way. If you think calling a trans a defect is less insulting than what I posted, nice. I'm taking this seriously because I take this game seriously, and this community seriously. Without this we would not be the people we are today, and the lenient fashion you guys are acting ignoring the fact that I have shown you 2-3 examples of lies about Scarlett's accomplishments written incorrectly in her Liquipedia page, makes me believe you jsut dont care about this game and it's legacy as much as I do. If 61* was big because there were a few more games per season, imagine Scarlett*(technically a man but they let her play womens tournaments because she has a disorder that makes her feel like a woman). And Yes I own 2 copies of the SC Bible, have you even read it? Shall I start quoting you the quickest televised sc1 game, the longest, the best win streak? It exists already, it's not some figment of my imagination. And if the second one comes out years down the line to look back on WoL and I see Scarlett's name in it, best believe it will be a final reminder to how pathetically this community acted to preserve the honor of it's records.
**** it, I declare myself GSL champion while I'm at it.
i didn't know scarlett was actually a man untill I read her messages on stardusts twitch chat. clearly it's proof that men and women shouldn't be aloud to play games together because they don't type the same and clearly don't use the computer the same way. all gays/transvestites should be banned from esports forever NO EXCEPTIONS
I hope you understand that what you're saying although true is ridiculous and you should focus on why you are giving israel 30 billion a year to bomb children and trying to stop that with the same passion, not if transvestites are beating BAD players in starcraft 2 tournaments that will never really matter,with the exception of wcs canada ..
do you mean the children the palestines use as human shield? or the children from schools they use to launch their rockets from? or the ones in hospitals where they also launch rockets?
seriously, you're from Australia, how can you be so ignorant? go read and study instead of defecating in the forums.
On November 26 2012 23:44 CarlosOmse wrote: [quote]
still dont get it why they ban him fckin cencorship, he wasnt offending just telling his opinion .. i have no problem with transgenders but i still get his point, if hussein bolt would change sex and breaks all female running records is it fair/legit??
You forgot the crown rule of TL is; be nice, be safe, and avoid saying anything controversial in fear of the ban hammer as older men fear god; can be a mighty tool to avoid trolling but when freedom of expression has to be sacrificed in the name of peace and equality, how much do you value that peace and equality, knowing that it is only bestowed upon you by those who see you not as the person you are but simply a IP address and viewership number to be crushed like a bug if need be...
Agreed, the fundamental point here to drive home is that pretty much any coverage of Scarlett has been on the lines of "this girl rocks the world, taking down all these men" etc etc...
I'm sorry but the first thing that appeared when she joined Eclypsia was how it was awesome it was to have a successful woman pro-gamer who had a track record of sticking it to Koreans and that's how I've thought of her until now; I'm sorry but I feel so cheated having cheered her on all these times, telling people how PROUD I was that women were finally breaking through in SC and not just a side-game joke like SlayersEve vs ST-Aprodite, only to find out that the woman I was cheering on is a man in the process/who has become a woman?
I'm sorry but this is a blatant manipulation of the psyche of the Starcraft community, because if Scarlett shows up BEING HER/HIS/IT's self and we don't get this "women can do it too" PR campaign there's nothing wrong, I had a girl in school who wanted to be a boy, changed her name and got the surgery as an adult, she(he) is cool now. I understand this wasn't her fault, she deserves the attention for her results and I'm sure everyone was just as confused about this, fair play. However it would be incredibly daft, unfair and problematic if either LeiYa or Scarlett are shone as the beacon of women gamers(I know LeiYa won't be as she was known as PuCK for ages now and was known as a man) when I'll go out on a limb and say that any female gamer's would not look to these two as their predecessors/idols, because at the end of the day, beyond all the 21st century, you can be who you want to be bollocks, these two WERE men, and may technically still be(I guess would make for the best kind of gay friend?)
I'm going to refute my own advice and risk the banhammer by saying this; we as a community need to be very careful about idolizing/encouraging such intimate details about the lives of our stars, adding transgenders to the list of popular fringe personalities in the Starcraft community is IMO only going to keep us at the fringe of society, atleast while the community has so much dirty underwear floating around the internet(this being not the worst but maybe the oddest?). Although I understand transgender as a personal choice I think it begs the question if it is a personal issue why does it have any place being a well-known and accepted fact in the community?
I don't exactly get how this "manipulation of the psyche of the Starcraft community" transpired, because if I remember correctly, Scarlett made a name for herself by playing in the IPL 4 open bracket and during the same event, if not within minutes of her video interview, someone on reddit posted claims about her being a transgender (mostly because of the adam's apple that was visible during the interview with Hot_Bid, as well as her voice seeming a bit weird) which was confirmed within hours.
That's all I'm saying here, nobody was manipulated. This information has, for better or for worse, been made public from the get-go.
I do agree that there's an excess of zeal in the moderation and banhammering of controversial posts on topics like transgendered people and even homosexuality, but you might want to take that one to the Website Feedback section.
Well for someone like myself who has time to watch the games/read the highlights but couldn't give a rat's ass about interviews and other such stuff, this Scarlett thing went over my head until I read this post. Yeah, I'd checked her out and been like "no way"(tbh my radar was tingling when I first saw pics as well), but looking back this is the kind of stuff im referring to.
Source:"Scarlett Joins Eclypsia" http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329727 Excerpt: "The 18 year old Canadian only started playing a year ago and first started to make a name for herself this Autumn, winning two Iron Lady Champion Cups".
Ok so just to start off, why has nobody taken those titles off her and given them to the runner ups? As recently as 04/2012 it shows her winning an "Iron Lady Leetgion" Tournament, this must have been long after she had come out the the community, still shitting on real females in an all-girl cup, cleverly lying on this screen at ESL to do it:
Requirements
Current requirements: Gender Your gender has to be the following one.
Required gender: f Gameaccount Players must have added the following gameaccount to their account to play in this league.
Type: StarCraft II Nick#Character code (Battle.net US) (click here to add) min. members: 1
Next up we have this:
Source:http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Female_SC2_Scene Excerpt: In July, Scarlett made history, being the first woman to win a major mixed gender championship as she won the Canadian national finals for the 2012 StarCraft II World Championship. A week later, Aphrodite, too, made history being the first woman to have a broadcasted game in GOMTV's SC2 production
Scarlett is the first woman to win a major tournament and the only female player to win a national finals in WCS, not to mention a continental finals.
I have made my point now what say thou?
She was personally allowed by the organizers of those tournaments to play in them. Iron Lady cups fully knew the situation. Scarlett has never tried to hide her gender situation; it was almost immediately known after IPL. It is not her fault that you are unaware of these events and are only now outraged.
Generally, people who identify as women are referred to as "female". It is clear that you cannot accept this, and there is nothing that can really be changed about that. While it is within your rights to have your opinions on the matters and I do hope that there isn't rampant mod action, it is quite insulting and hurtful to state that some people who identify as female should not be allowed to live how they would like to, just because it offends some people's sensibilities.
I'm sorry and this may sound horribly 18th Century, but I don't "identify" as a man. I was born one, confirmed by a doctor with 10 years of education and extensive experience. It's written in your passport and that's that, Male or Female, some Men may be gay or want to be women, some women may want to be men , but your still defined by which genitals you are born with.
Again, if you read my post, I couldn't give a rat's ass about how Scarlett or LeiYa choose to behave as long as they won't do it around me. I'm not taking away from their basic civil rights, I care about upholding the worthiness of a title like "first woman to...." when it's NOT TRUE. Don't you get it, at the bottom of it all. I take this community seriously but to me this would be like MVP going in the record books to have won his G5L trophy because he played in an online league once called G5L and won rather than what actually supposed to happen.
You know, the way an actual woman was supposed to receive this accolade.
Thus this title is a false flag operation, but hell obviously no one gives a shit about the integrity of the game, we just want to be all peace and happy and cool you can be who you want to be.
G
Honestly dude you're making a huge deal out of something that really isn't. In the end, it was up to the admins and participants to allow her to play in the tournament and since they were okay with that it doesn't really matter what your or I think. You're free to discredit her accomplishments but please don't act as if you have the authority to dictate what others should think and do, especially for a reason as pompous and self-righteous as "the bible of sc" (lol).
Also you realize that you complained about over-moderation on this delicate topic (which I don't disagree with) and then proceed to try and force your own views upon others and tell them what to think and what's good for the scene? (lol; and also it's just your opinion) A bit hypocritical if you ask me.
Anyway I recommend that you take a chill pill and focus on more important issues.
That's the problem with the community, you take the outsider's view and just say "well thats wrong, thats dumb, why are you saying that" without addressing the content. Im not trying to silence other's opinions(moderation) I am stating my viewpoint in a convincing way. If you think calling a trans a defect is less insulting than what I posted, nice. I'm taking this seriously because I take this game seriously, and this community seriously. Without this we would not be the people we are today, and the lenient fashion you guys are acting ignoring the fact that I have shown you 2-3 examples of lies about Scarlett's accomplishments written incorrectly in her Liquipedia page, makes me believe you jsut dont care about this game and it's legacy as much as I do. If 61* was big because there were a few more games per season, imagine Scarlett*(technically a man but they let her play womens tournaments because she has a disorder that makes her feel like a woman). And Yes I own 2 copies of the SC Bible, have you even read it? Shall I start quoting you the quickest televised sc1 game, the longest, the best win streak? It exists already, it's not some figment of my imagination. And if the second one comes out years down the line to look back on WoL and I see Scarlett's name in it, best believe it will be a final reminder to how pathetically this community acted to preserve the honor of it's records.
**** it, I declare myself GSL champion while I'm at it.
i didn't know scarlett was actually a man untill I read her messages on stardusts twitch chat. clearly it's proof that men and women shouldn't be aloud to play games together because they don't type the same and clearly don't use the computer the same way. all gays/transvestites should be banned from esports forever NO EXCEPTIONS
I hope you understand that what you're saying although true is ridiculous and you should focus on why you are giving israel 30 billion a year to bomb children and trying to stop that with the same passion, not if transvestites are beating BAD players in starcraft 2 tournaments that will never really matter,with the exception of wcs canada ..
do you mean the children the palestines use as human shield? or the children from schools they use to launch their rockets from? or the ones in hospitals where they also launch rockets?
seriously, you're from Australia, how can you be so ignorant? go read and study instead of defecating in the forums.
He is ignorant and the Palestine/Israel relationship is a muddled mess where atrocities are committed by both sides, justified or not I won't say. But the person who was arguing that transgender people are only defined by the way they're born is ignorant as well. If a post-op or mid transition trans person wants to identify with either gender it should be a non issue. In this case Scarlett IDENTIFIES as female and the event managers agreed with that identification so those poeple who claim that she shouldn't be able to participate and be stripped of her awards because she was a he is utter bonkers. Arguing like this doesn't get anything done and just creates this sort of stupid drama that has begun to define this community, for better or worse.
Guys, is it ok if I just want to congratulate Leiya on getting back on ROOT and MaJoR for pursuing his dreams? I mean, I don't want to get in the way of debating the middle east conflict...
probably going to get banned for this but here it goes...
Want to know the funny thing? Being a transsexual is nothing to be ashamed of from an objective point of view, but we have all this shame and confusion about how to identify them.
While thinking about this, I realize that the only problem here is the Iron Lady tournament. The very idea of IRON LADY does not represent me or my 21st century views. I understand that the NBA/WNBA is scientifically necessary because of the strength gap between genders, but making a women league for a computer game just for some formality and marketing media hype is bad, outdated idea.
Some might argue I am not being realistic because even in the most liberal bastion states of the US and western democracies of Europe we have sexism and homo/trans-phobia and that we are still in an era where things like the iron lady and focusing on a transgender persons taboo sex life is normal. I would argue that most progressive thinkers will naturally come to the conclusion that the iron lady is inherently a bad idea in the 21st century and that focusing on her gender after making sure the casters call her a woman is overkill in an ideal world.
I guess the real problem, where we have to go overboard on being PC and not just live and let live, happens when trolls, idiots, and more trolls take it too far.
On November 27 2012 13:57 Ry2D2 wrote: MajOr, while you are indeed one of the best foreign terrans out there by your recent results, consider joining Team Liquid if things don't work out with the KeSPA teams GLHF hope the best for MajOr.
I don't know how interested liquid would be...Major is very skilled but he is definitely not necessarily the personality type for liquid.
If we're brutally candid, he isn't handsome enough for Liquid. It's rather apparent that looks is one of the criteria for Liquid's hiring policy, and major doesn't exactly fit that profile. Would fit right in at EG, though.
Anyways, I think it'd be much cooler if he actually made it into SKT or any KESPA team indeed.
That's silly. You think Sheth was hired for his looks? People say the most random things . . .
On November 27 2012 13:57 Ry2D2 wrote: MajOr, while you are indeed one of the best foreign terrans out there by your recent results, consider joining Team Liquid if things don't work out with the KeSPA teams GLHF hope the best for MajOr.
I don't know how interested liquid would be...Major is very skilled but he is definitely not necessarily the personality type for liquid.
If we're brutally candid, he isn't handsome enough for Liquid. It's rather apparent that looks is one of the criteria for Liquid's hiring policy, and major doesn't exactly fit that profile. Would fit right in at EG, though.
Anyways, I think it'd be much cooler if he actually made it into SKT or any KESPA team indeed.
That's silly. You think Sheth was hired for his looks? People say the most random things . . .
Wow that is so harsh... Sheth is a good looking dude no?
On November 27 2012 13:57 Ry2D2 wrote: MajOr, while you are indeed one of the best foreign terrans out there by your recent results, consider joining Team Liquid if things don't work out with the KeSPA teams GLHF hope the best for MajOr.
I don't know how interested liquid would be...Major is very skilled but he is definitely not necessarily the personality type for liquid.
If we're brutally candid, he isn't handsome enough for Liquid. It's rather apparent that looks is one of the criteria for Liquid's hiring policy, and major doesn't exactly fit that profile. Would fit right in at EG, though.
Anyways, I think it'd be much cooler if he actually made it into SKT or any KESPA team indeed.
That's silly. You think Sheth was hired for his looks? People say the most random things . . .
Wow that is so harsh... Sheth is a good looking dude no?
I think his point was that Major is as good/bad looking as Sheth is, making the point of the person he responded to a bit strange (saying that Major don't have a place on TL because of his looks).
Well kinda sucks since I hoped Major would actually stick with a team long time for a change. I don't know who the other guy is, but gratz to him for being back I guess.
On November 26 2012 23:44 CarlosOmse wrote: [quote]
still dont get it why they ban him fckin cencorship, he wasnt offending just telling his opinion .. i have no problem with transgenders but i still get his point, if hussein bolt would change sex and breaks all female running records is it fair/legit??
You forgot the crown rule of TL is; be nice, be safe, and avoid saying anything controversial in fear of the ban hammer as older men fear god; can be a mighty tool to avoid trolling but when freedom of expression has to be sacrificed in the name of peace and equality, how much do you value that peace and equality, knowing that it is only bestowed upon you by those who see you not as the person you are but simply a IP address and viewership number to be crushed like a bug if need be...
Agreed, the fundamental point here to drive home is that pretty much any coverage of Scarlett has been on the lines of "this girl rocks the world, taking down all these men" etc etc...
I'm sorry but the first thing that appeared when she joined Eclypsia was how it was awesome it was to have a successful woman pro-gamer who had a track record of sticking it to Koreans and that's how I've thought of her until now; I'm sorry but I feel so cheated having cheered her on all these times, telling people how PROUD I was that women were finally breaking through in SC and not just a side-game joke like SlayersEve vs ST-Aprodite, only to find out that the woman I was cheering on is a man in the process/who has become a woman?
I'm sorry but this is a blatant manipulation of the psyche of the Starcraft community, because if Scarlett shows up BEING HER/HIS/IT's self and we don't get this "women can do it too" PR campaign there's nothing wrong, I had a girl in school who wanted to be a boy, changed her name and got the surgery as an adult, she(he) is cool now. I understand this wasn't her fault, she deserves the attention for her results and I'm sure everyone was just as confused about this, fair play. However it would be incredibly daft, unfair and problematic if either LeiYa or Scarlett are shone as the beacon of women gamers(I know LeiYa won't be as she was known as PuCK for ages now and was known as a man) when I'll go out on a limb and say that any female gamer's would not look to these two as their predecessors/idols, because at the end of the day, beyond all the 21st century, you can be who you want to be bollocks, these two WERE men, and may technically still be(I guess would make for the best kind of gay friend?)
I'm going to refute my own advice and risk the banhammer by saying this; we as a community need to be very careful about idolizing/encouraging such intimate details about the lives of our stars, adding transgenders to the list of popular fringe personalities in the Starcraft community is IMO only going to keep us at the fringe of society, atleast while the community has so much dirty underwear floating around the internet(this being not the worst but maybe the oddest?). Although I understand transgender as a personal choice I think it begs the question if it is a personal issue why does it have any place being a well-known and accepted fact in the community?
I don't exactly get how this "manipulation of the psyche of the Starcraft community" transpired, because if I remember correctly, Scarlett made a name for herself by playing in the IPL 4 open bracket and during the same event, if not within minutes of her video interview, someone on reddit posted claims about her being a transgender (mostly because of the adam's apple that was visible during the interview with Hot_Bid, as well as her voice seeming a bit weird) which was confirmed within hours.
That's all I'm saying here, nobody was manipulated. This information has, for better or for worse, been made public from the get-go.
I do agree that there's an excess of zeal in the moderation and banhammering of controversial posts on topics like transgendered people and even homosexuality, but you might want to take that one to the Website Feedback section.
Well for someone like myself who has time to watch the games/read the highlights but couldn't give a rat's ass about interviews and other such stuff, this Scarlett thing went over my head until I read this post. Yeah, I'd checked her out and been like "no way"(tbh my radar was tingling when I first saw pics as well), but looking back this is the kind of stuff im referring to.
Source:"Scarlett Joins Eclypsia" http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329727 Excerpt: "The 18 year old Canadian only started playing a year ago and first started to make a name for herself this Autumn, winning two Iron Lady Champion Cups".
Ok so just to start off, why has nobody taken those titles off her and given them to the runner ups? As recently as 04/2012 it shows her winning an "Iron Lady Leetgion" Tournament, this must have been long after she had come out the the community, still shitting on real females in an all-girl cup, cleverly lying on this screen at ESL to do it:
Requirements
Current requirements: Gender Your gender has to be the following one.
Required gender: f Gameaccount Players must have added the following gameaccount to their account to play in this league.
Type: StarCraft II Nick#Character code (Battle.net US) (click here to add) min. members: 1
Next up we have this:
Source:http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Female_SC2_Scene Excerpt: In July, Scarlett made history, being the first woman to win a major mixed gender championship as she won the Canadian national finals for the 2012 StarCraft II World Championship. A week later, Aphrodite, too, made history being the first woman to have a broadcasted game in GOMTV's SC2 production
Scarlett is the first woman to win a major tournament and the only female player to win a national finals in WCS, not to mention a continental finals.
I have made my point now what say thou?
She was personally allowed by the organizers of those tournaments to play in them. Iron Lady cups fully knew the situation. Scarlett has never tried to hide her gender situation; it was almost immediately known after IPL. It is not her fault that you are unaware of these events and are only now outraged.
Generally, people who identify as women are referred to as "female". It is clear that you cannot accept this, and there is nothing that can really be changed about that. While it is within your rights to have your opinions on the matters and I do hope that there isn't rampant mod action, it is quite insulting and hurtful to state that some people who identify as female should not be allowed to live how they would like to, just because it offends some people's sensibilities.
I'm sorry and this may sound horribly 18th Century, but I don't "identify" as a man. I was born one, confirmed by a doctor with 10 years of education and extensive experience. It's written in your passport and that's that, Male or Female, some Men may be gay or want to be women, some women may want to be men , but your still defined by which genitals you are born with.
Again, if you read my post, I couldn't give a rat's ass about how Scarlett or LeiYa choose to behave as long as they won't do it around me. I'm not taking away from their basic civil rights, I care about upholding the worthiness of a title like "first woman to...." when it's NOT TRUE. Don't you get it, at the bottom of it all. I take this community seriously but to me this would be like MVP going in the record books to have won his G5L trophy because he played in an online league once called G5L and won rather than what actually supposed to happen.
You know, the way an actual woman was supposed to receive this accolade.
Thus this title is a false flag operation, but hell obviously no one gives a shit about the integrity of the game, we just want to be all peace and happy and cool you can be who you want to be.
G
Honestly dude you're making a huge deal out of something that really isn't. In the end, it was up to the admins and participants to allow her to play in the tournament and since they were okay with that it doesn't really matter what your or I think. You're free to discredit her accomplishments but please don't act as if you have the authority to dictate what others should think and do, especially for a reason as pompous and self-righteous as "the bible of sc" (lol).
Also you realize that you complained about over-moderation on this delicate topic (which I don't disagree with) and then proceed to try and force your own views upon others and tell them what to think and what's good for the scene? (lol; and also it's just your opinion) A bit hypocritical if you ask me.
Anyway I recommend that you take a chill pill and focus on more important issues.
That's the problem with the community, you take the outsider's view and just say "well thats wrong, thats dumb, why are you saying that" without addressing the content. Im not trying to silence other's opinions(moderation) I am stating my viewpoint in a convincing way. If you think calling a trans a defect is less insulting than what I posted, nice. I'm taking this seriously because I take this game seriously, and this community seriously. Without this we would not be the people we are today, and the lenient fashion you guys are acting ignoring the fact that I have shown you 2-3 examples of lies about Scarlett's accomplishments written incorrectly in her Liquipedia page, makes me believe you jsut dont care about this game and it's legacy as much as I do. If 61* was big because there were a few more games per season, imagine Scarlett*(technically a man but they let her play womens tournaments because she has a disorder that makes her feel like a woman). And Yes I own 2 copies of the SC Bible, have you even read it? Shall I start quoting you the quickest televised sc1 game, the longest, the best win streak? It exists already, it's not some figment of my imagination. And if the second one comes out years down the line to look back on WoL and I see Scarlett's name in it, best believe it will be a final reminder to how pathetically this community acted to preserve the honor of it's records.
**** it, I declare myself GSL champion while I'm at it.
i didn't know scarlett was actually a man untill I read her messages on stardusts twitch chat. clearly it's proof that men and women shouldn't be aloud to play games together because they don't type the same and clearly don't use the computer the same way. all gays/transvestites should be banned from esports forever NO EXCEPTIONS
I hope you understand that what you're saying although true is ridiculous and you should focus on why you are giving israel 30 billion a year to bomb children and trying to stop that with the same passion, not if transvestites are beating BAD players in starcraft 2 tournaments that will never really matter,with the exception of wcs canada ..
do you mean the children the palestines use as human shield? or the children from schools they use to launch their rockets from? or the ones in hospitals where they also launch rockets?
seriously, you're from Australia, how can you be so ignorant? go read and study instead of defecating in the forums.
I think you are mistaken. There have been several photos of Israeli soldiers using Palestinian children as human shields but never the opposite
if you would kindly educate yourself before annoying me, it would be greatly appreciated.
Major has been going nuts over getting into a korean team since forever. Back in BW, he was in gosi, one of the top Koean clans that turned out many eventual Kespa pros, and was an online practice partner for some of the pros themselves. He adjusted his sleeping schedule to Korean hours, despite living in Mexico, so he could practice with them.
It'll be interesting to see what he does now.
Good to hear Leiya coming back. He had potential. Now let's see if she can live up to it now that she's back!
On November 28 2012 09:32 ellsworth wrote: probably going to get banned for this but here it goes...
Want to know the funny thing? Being a transsexual is nothing to be ashamed of from an objective point of view, but we have all this shame and confusion about how to identify them.
While thinking about this, I realize that the only problem here is the Iron Lady tournament. The very idea of IRON LADY does not represent me or my 21st century views. I understand that the NBA/WNBA is scientifically necessary because of the strength gap between genders, but making a women league for a computer game just for some formality and marketing media hype is bad, outdated idea.
Some might argue I am not being realistic because even in the most liberal bastion states of the US and western democracies of Europe we have sexism and homo/trans-phobia and that we are still in an era where things like the iron lady and focusing on a transgender persons taboo sex life is normal. I would argue that most progressive thinkers will naturally come to the conclusion that the iron lady is inherently a bad idea in the 21st century and that focusing on her gender after making sure the casters call her a woman is overkill in an ideal world.
I guess the real problem, where we have to go overboard on being PC and not just live and let live, happens when trolls, idiots, and more trolls take it too far.
User was banned for this post.
I actually wrote a ton on this post yesterday, but my comp crashed so I didn't get to post.
This is an interesting post, with many good points. It's a shame that you martyred yourself, but you raise the kind of points that I can't help but agree with.
1. Physical sports like football, merit a gender divide due to actual physiological differences in terms of strength/muscle mass etc. 2. Activities like Starcraft, snooker etc, do not have these differences, it doesn't make sense to have them.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ddlgZ.jpg)
