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Question: Raynor's attitude in StarCraft II was surprising, considering where we left off in Brood War. After Kerrigan backstabbed him and killed Fenix, Raynor gave up on her and was hell-bent on getting rid of her. He explicitly promised he would kill her. What led him to change his mind, killing Tychus so he could save her?
Answer: I answered most of this question previously, but I want to follow up with this one for two reasons, which I'll take in reverse order.
About Tychus: By the time Jim and Tychus are in the cave with Kerrigan, I think Jim is all-in. He's made his choice. There's no going back, and no shrinking from what has to be done.
The bigger reason I wanted to address this issue was your good point that Jim's attitudes and actions at the beginning of Wings are surprising. I want to have a discussion with the community about this, and hear your thoughts. At the start of Wings of Liberty, it had been four years since Brood War, and Jim had been through a lot. He'd had time to reflect on the past—perhaps too much time. Additionally, the Queen of Blades was in seclusion for most of that time, so she was not continually stoking his hatred. If Jim felt the same exact emotions at that point, if his thoughts had not evolved at all, that would be very strange. It would be as if the intervening four years hadn't happened, and he was just a two dimensional automaton sitting in purgatory, waiting for the story to resume. So Jim slipped into an alcoholic haze, and focused on the things he'd lost—including the red-headed ghost, Sarah Kerrigan.
That's the reasoning for Jim's surprising actions. Now, the counterargument would be, players didn't go through those four years with Jim. They didn't experience that—so they experienced a disconnect. Jim went from one attitude straight into another. This is a completely valid argument.
So I'd ask the community—what do you think? Should Jim have been in the same spot emotionally that he'd been in four years earlier? Or was the evolution a good idea, but poorly executed? Or was it a good idea and it worked fine for most of us? Or should it have been a whole different idea?
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/7713050/StarCraft_II_Creative_Development_QA_-_Part_4-10_29_2012
Here is what Blizzzard has said previously about Jim's decision to save Kerrigan
Question: Why did Jim Raynor turn his back on everything that happened in the original StarCraft and Brood War, in that instead of killing Kerrigan (he watched her do some BAD stuff), he fell in love with her?
Answer: The first thing to consider is how Jim perceived Kerrigan. Certainly Horner, Tychus, and the Hyperion crew all viewed her as an evil being who should pay for her crimes. They didn't see a distinction between Kerrigan and the Queen of Blades, and for a long time Jim probably didn't either. But the moment Valerian uttered those words about saving Sarah, a door opened in Jim's mind. Could there truly be the "old" Sarah — cold-eyed assassin, but not a mass murderer — somewhere inside the ruthless alien queen? Was it possible? Jim didn’t know the answer to that for sure. He'd seen the Queen of Blades deceive everyone before, and he wouldn’t put all his trust in Valerian's judgment. So for Jim, it came down to his gut, as it always does. Jim had a choice: hold on to his hatred for Mengsk and the Queen of Blades, or grasp the hope that perhaps he could fix this. And his gut told him to take that chance.
Jim has lost so much in his life — more than most people — and that made the idea of redeeming Kerrigan all the more powerful in his mind. He'd lost family, friends, worlds, ideals...and he thought he'd lost Kerrigan, too. Then he learned there was hope of redeeming her. This was the first time he'd had a chance to regain something he'd thought lost, his only opportunity to make things better rather than stop them from getting worse.
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/7597722
Sarah Kerrigan: What are you worried about, Jim? He died the way all Protoss hope to: in combat!
Jim Raynor: He died because you betrayed him! How many more noble souls do you need to consume before you're satisfied?! How many more innocent people have to die before you realize what you've become?!
Sarah Kerrigan: You don't even know what you're talking about, Jim.
Jim Raynor: Don't I? I'll see you dead for this, Kerrigan! For Fenix, and all the others who got caught between you and your mad quest for power!
Sarah Kerrigan: Tough talk, Jimmy, but I don't think you have what it takes to be a killer.
Jim Raynor: It may not be tomorrow, darlin', it may not even happen with an army at my back. But rest assured: I'm the man who's gonna kill you one day! I'll be seeing you!
My Thoughts
This was one of the most defining moments in Starcraft history. It was the moment Jim Raynor laid aside his love for Kerrigan and took up arms with the rest of the universe. I can understand the decision to reverse this pivotal moment but in my heart of hearts I did not, and do not, agree with it. Kerrigan is a monster and Jimmy is the one who is going to kill her. To deny Starcraft that justice in my mind is to abandon everything that the players have fought for.
The question of whether Kerrigan was truly evil or just possessed by the Zerg was one answered in BroodWar. Kerrigan comes to her former allies and claims that she was under the Overmind's control. And she betrays them. Three times.
The story of BroodWar is in large part the story of Kerrigan's damnation. That she was not merely bad because of zerg influence, but rather a being who became obsessed with power and control as payback for all her past suffering.
And that is fine. It was briliant storytelling and it made her one of the most hated villians of sci-fi. But this was no Darth Vader. Throughout WoL we were never treated to a single moment when Kerrigan showed regret. Instead Raynor wanted her to be good and it is only natural that her salvation should seem fake, artificial, and forced as a result of a lack of internal redemption.
Edit: This was a great write up
http://sclegacy.com/editorials/7-reviews/1134-scl-reviews-wings-of-liberty
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The problem isn't the change in attitude, it's the lack of storytelling. They should have shown how/why his attitude changed, not just said "four years - it happened sometime." They could have put it into a conversation, a flashback, a fantasy, or something else. They were just lazy and that's why there are so many questions about this.
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10387 Posts
I want to punch whoever came up with this particular story development
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I honestly feel like blizzard is severely lacking in their story telling lately. Everything seems so PG 13 and predictable and TBH its really lame IMO
-zerg someone being 'slaves' the entire time , eventually what? they are gonna try and make them some kinda good guys.
-the whole raynor saving kerrigan and turning her into human (ish)......holy shit lame
-almost every line of dialogue raynor spouts is cringe worthy (not dissing the voice actor I think he's good, just hate the writing)
I just separate it in my mind. Starcraft and the brood wars happened and that was that, the end. Everything they are doing now is not canon in my mind, I just suppress it and tell myself it didn't happen. (same with d3)
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so they experienced a disconnect
Hence no lan mode.
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I actually facepalmed the first time I played through that mission. That vow should have been directed towards Mengsk, not Kerrigan. If Mengsk hadn't been a bastard and had not abandoned Kerrigan Kerrigan wouldn't have been turned into the Queen of Blades in the first place.
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OP, I couldn't agree more with you. This single moment in the campaign encapsulates everything I was hoping for from the campaign of SC2 for twelve years. Even more than the secret hybrid mission. I still remember the first time I did it... I hesitated for like twenty minutes hoping some surprise event would pop up and change the objectives before I actually killed fenix so he wouldn't actually die. Then I used spawn broodling and I felt so guilty for killing him in such a cheap and cowardly way, then Raynor came on and called me out on what a bitch I was and I remember thinking "NOOO ITS ALL TRUE! I BETRAYED MY HERO!!! IM A HORRIBLE PERSON! WHY DID YOU MAKE ME DO THIS KERRIGAN!!! I HATE YOU!!"
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On October 30 2012 04:32 Nimix wrote:Hence no lan mode.
Bahaha, I literally laughed out loud. So funny. But yeah, I dunno, story-wise I can see either way working out well. I agree with the original thought from Blizzard on the whole once he heard there was a way to save her he couldn't let go of that hope. I think everyone can connect with that on some level.
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And I loved the idea in the SC2 campaign that Zeratul comes to Raynor with a message that Kerrigan is the key to defeating the hybrid/xel'naga and saving the galaxy and he must protect her, because then that puts Raynor in the uncomfortable position where everyone in the world will think he's crazy and his personal goal (kill her) conflicts with what is right for the greater good (protect her so she can stop the hybrid/xel naga) and continues the tension of the sc1 and brood war campaigns where you have to make these uncomfortable alliances that you know will be trouble in the long run but its what you have to do to survive the current dilemma. The idea that you are working together because you have to but at any moment your allies could stab you in the back.
It could have been so amazing. But one little tweak to a character's motivations and this brilliant drama falls from epic status to soap opera status. 
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Russian Federation1612 Posts
I think that Blizzard explained everything. One thing that they didn't explain is why Kerrigan didn't destroyed everyone in those four years...
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inb4 raynor actually kills kerrigan in LOTV, and this was planned all along.
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On October 30 2012 04:52 CYFAWS wrote:
inb4 raynor actually kills kerrigan in LOTV, and this was planned all along.
That would be streamlined either. What would be surprising if Kerrigan continued domination after the end of SC2.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
Frigging Raynor , Bros over hoes not the other way around. She killed goddamn Fenix, FENIX, should have owned that bitch.
I hope Kerrigan kills Raynor.
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On October 30 2012 04:19 ArvickHero wrote:
I want to punch whoever came up with this particular story development
Indeed.
BW story was fucking awesome. Imo, one of the better storylines of all time, and THE absolute BEST storyline for any RTS game. WoL was one of the absolute WORST continuations of a storyline I've ever experienced. Fucking hated it.
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On October 30 2012 05:06 Kipsate wrote:
Frigging Raynor , Bros over hoes not the other way around. She killed goddamn Fenix, FENIX, should have owned that bitch.
I hope Kerrigan kills Raynor.
Oh common, she is a perfect villain. Sophisticated yet brutal. At least that how it was in BW. What goes in SC2 is laughable.
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On October 30 2012 04:39 Achaia wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2012 04:32 Nimix wrote:so they experienced a disconnect Hence no lan mode. I agree with the original thought from Blizzard on the whole once he heard there was a way to save her he couldn't let go of that hope. I think everyone can connect with that on some level.
I know a lot of people want for Jim to hate Kerrigan forever; but I think the question of Sarah's redemption (i.e. how much of her is truly evil?) is probably the best and most deeply personal story they could tell. The story wouldn't be as compelling if Kerrigan was completely absolved of her actions as the Queen of Blades, and suffered no consequences for that as a person and in the universe.
I really like what Blizzard has hinted at regarding the internal struggles that Jim, Sarah and their relationship as a whole will suffer as they both figure out exactly who she is and what she is capable of going forward. Jim reviles the the Queen of Blades actions, but at the end of the day he is in love with Sarah Kerrigan and wants to save her. The question is...how much of Sarah can truly be saved? How much of Sarah herself was actually driving the personality of the Queen of Blades?
You're completely right though, I have loved and lost and that's why the redemption story is such a compelling one for me. I'm more interested in the relationships of the characters than I am in a huge intergalactic war between alien races, but the huge intergalactic war sure doesn't hurt =)
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well the thing is if jimmy killed kerrigan than blizzard has run out of ideas to who else to put in command to control the swarm that is one of the reason why they cook up the story line this way . No way one could forget what kerrigan have done in broodwar jimmy should have killed her..
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The question of whether Kerrigan was truly evil or just possessed by the Zerg was one answered in BroodWar. Kerrigan comes to her former allies and claims that she was under the Overmind's control. And she betrays them. Three times.
The story of BroodWar is in large part the story of Kerrigan's damnation. That she was not merely bad because of zerg influence, but rather a being who became obsessed with power and control as payback for all her past suffering.
And that is fine. It was briliant storytelling and it made her one of the most hated villians of sci-fi. But this was no Darth Vader. Throughout WoL we were never treated to a single moment when Kerrigan showed regret. Instead Raynor wanted her to be good and it is only natural that her salvation should seem fake, artificial, and forced as a result of a lack of internal redemption.
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On October 30 2012 06:08 Archerofaiur wrote:
The question of whether Kerrigan was truly evil or just possessed by the Zerg was one answered in BroodWar. Kerrigan comes to her former allies and claims that she was under the Overmind's control. And she betrays them. Three times.
The story of BroodWar is in large part the story of Kerrigan's damnation. That she was not merely bad because of zerg influence, but rather a being who became obsessed with power and control as payback for all her past suffering.
And that is fine. It was briliant storytelling and it made her one of the most hated villians of sci-fi. But this was no Darth Vader. Throughout WoL we were never treated to a single moment when Kerrigan showed regret. Instead Raynor wanted her to be good and it is only natural that her salvation should seem fake, artificial, and forced as a result of a lack of internal redemption.
Or any other emotion for that matter. :/
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On October 30 2012 05:26 Sawamura wrote:
well the thing is if jimmy killed kerrigan than blizzard has run out of ideas to who else to put in command to control the swarm that is one of the reason why they cook up the story line this way . No way one could forget what kerrigan have done in broodwar jimmy should have killed her..
Except for the part where Jim knows that if he kills her/she dies he'll doom the entire universe thanks to Zeratul's vision.
I think it's pretty believable that Jim, knowing that plus what he used to feel for Kerrigan before she became the Queen of Blades, chose to keep her alive.
Of course, you could say that Zeratul's vision was a bad storyline, but with the current storyline it works fine that he saves her. I don't think Jim who's been fighting for 4 years for a better future and who has a strong sense of duty is going to let cold hearted vengeance doom the entire universe.
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Storyline for WoL was utterly disappointing.
SC1 and BW storylines felt much more darker and cruel. WoL storyline was cheesy lovestory bullshit. I doubt the storyline gets any better in HoTS and LOtV.
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well it's not like blizzard's creatives believe they've done perfect hm?
+ Show Spoiler +
We also thought that we could have Tassadar compliment the Overmind's courage without seeming to imply that they were BFFs. In other words, one can admire an enemy's courage, but still hate him. But that was a mistake—given how few words Tassadar gets to utter in the entire game, he should not have wasted any of them on a compliment to an enemy. It sent the wrong message.
Finally, we did not foresee, at all, that people would compare StarCraft to Warcraft III, and then make assumptions about what we were saying based on that comparison. "Brown orcs, green orcs. The Overmind is good!" We never said the Overmind was "good” anywhere in the game, but we should have been clearer about what we were saying. (E.g., spelled out that the zerg are not "good," nor were they ever "good" in the past.) Since we did not define what we were saying, the community, correctly, turned to other examples from Blizzard's body of work.
On October 30 2012 04:17 Shai wrote:
The problem isn't the change in attitude, it's the lack of storytelling. They should have shown how/why his attitude changed, not just said "four years - it happened sometime." They could have put it into a conversation, a flashback, a fantasy, or something else. They were just lazy and that's why there are so many questions about this.
i completely agree with this on the kerrigan + jim stuff
you must also consider that "if the zerg wipe everyone out, it's all been for nothing", so perhaps, and only perhaps Raynor would've helped Valerian even without the promise of saving kerrigan....
and then there's + Show Spoiler + There is a mission in the Nintendo64 Brood War where the Protoss develop a cure for Stukov's infestation. While it probably wasn't potent enough to work on Kerrigan, it probably did give him hope for the possibility of a cure for her. -TvTropes which is canon
"Sarah Kerrigan: Tough talk, Jimmy, but I don't think you have what it takes to be a killer." She was right after all hm? :D
however, all the new story with the overmind, hybrids, kerrigan as the savior? i believe that makes sense, as it fixes some strange things in vanilla SC
+ Show Spoiler +something i also read something else on TvTropes sometime ago, can't remember where tho;
in the zerg campaign in vanilla SC you're pretty much the bodyguard cerebrate to kerrigan,and your sole purpose as a cerebrate is to protect and make her develop into the "ultimate weapon". However, when the Overmind launches its invasion to Aiur, which should deal a crippling blow to the protoss, which are stated to be the ultimate enemy of the zerg and their final objective in the road to reach perfection and even if the Swarm also doesn't aknowledge any other threat (especially the terrans are considered little more than victims)...
the Overmind leaves Kerrigan in the rear, on the safety of Char (and she's fully mature/infested by then).
Why make a weapon and not use her in the only war you could possibly neer her? and why take physical form on Aiur before the total elimination of the -only- threat in the universe? The WoL overmind plan gives an answer to that that isn't: "well, the same Overmind that outsmarted the Xel'Nagas just messed up"
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"Awaken my child, and embrace the glory that is your birthright"
I always thought the Overmind was the cooler character of them all. I hoped for long that they would bring him back, but seeing the quality of the storytelling in SC2 I'm afraid they might reveal he was in fact Pinky Pie all along.
Also, I approve of this thread.
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Well the whole play on why the overmind chose Kerrigan in the first place puts this into prospective.
Jim has to save Kerrigan to save the Universe. I think you vengeful terrrans forget, the protoss want her dead more than any terran.
However, the story hasn't even concluded. It's not like Kerrigan has joined alliances with Jim. The whole of WOL is about Jim's prospective. We never get to see the two characters interact. So I don't see where most of you are drawing this conclusion that Jim has forgiven Kerrigan.
There are bigger events lurking in the background. Something a lot larger and more important than revenge. The Hybrid. The Xelnaga.
Hold on to your seats boys, "It's gonna be a bumpy ride."
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ops, hit quote instead of edit >.<
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Its a really lazy setup by Blizzard to keep Jim as the hero and still have Kerrigan live through SC2. They wrote like fifteen books about Starcraft pre-release and simply didn't happen to cover those four years?
On October 30 2012 04:37 Darknat wrote:
I actually facepalmed the first time I played through that mission. That vow should have been directed towards Mengsk, not Kerrigan. If Mengsk hadn't been a bastard and had not abandoned Kerrigan Kerrigan wouldn't have been turned into the Queen of Blades in the first place.
Kerrigan had fully changed at that point. There was not a single bit of pity left in her, they made that shit pretty clear through BW.
Very wary of where this is going, especially after seeing that storyboard video. I'm resigned to not getting the grungy and dark Starcraft of the past, but I'll be damned if I play another WC redemption story.
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I'll grant that the storyline has become inconsistent. (and I don't know why no one has mentioned Jim's hair. It didn't bother me but other friends were quick to point out how he stopped being bald  )
But I think people are being too harsh on Blizzard here. I really appreciate Blizzard's frank admittals of error, and their openness to the community regarding their thought process and efforts, mistakes and all. Which is not obligatory on their part at all and I can't think of many games that have done this. I think the story is still interesting, and I'm looking forward to the 2nd and 3rd acts.
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Honestly I think WoL is just perceived to be executed badly because Brood War was executed badly.There was no way Raynor would have ever fulfilled that stupid vow to begin with. Fenix was an alien while Kerrigan was a fellow Terran who Raynor fought along side to help bring down the Confederacy.
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On October 30 2012 09:53 Gerbilkit wrote:I'll grant that the storyline has become inconsistent. (and I don't know why no one has mentioned Jim's hair. It didn't bother me but other friends were quick to point out how he stopped being bald )
There actually is a picture they released which explains it pretty well. It was a crew cut.
![[image loading]](http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090705065308/starcraft/images/b/bf/JimRaynor_SC2_Art3.jpg)
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On October 30 2012 10:08 Darknat wrote:
Honestly I think WoL is just perceived to be executed badly because Brood War was executed badly.There was no way Raynor would have ever fulfilled that stupid vow to begin with. Fenix was an alien while Kerrigan was a fellow Terran who Raynor fought along side to help bring down the Confederacy.
BW was awesome.
Raynor was exclusively with the Protoss for an extended duration (besides other Terran on his BC). He had significant more interaction with Protoss than fellow Terran. Him and Fenix became best friends over the campaign. This isn't even remotely hard to perceive, considering the Protoss had almost exclusive anthropomorphic qualities. At the same time Kerrigan had little to no empathetic anthropomorphic qualities, only lust for power and treachory, something which we (humans) generally despise.
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On October 31 2012 01:12 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2012 09:53 Gerbilkit wrote:I'll grant that the storyline has become inconsistent. (and I don't know why no one has mentioned Jim's hair. It didn't bother me but other friends were quick to point out how he stopped being bald ) There actually is a picture they released which explains it pretty well. It was a crew cut.
Didn't he have a ring of hair around the back of his head in the campaign gameplay? I thought I remembered that but it's been a while.
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