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Henrik.Roikjer
Denmark52 Posts
Srsly ? And some time ago he said that HasuObs should stop whinning and start killing jews or something like that on Twitter. It just so bad behavior and I cant stand it. So im happy that EG desided to do this. Because I think Stephano is some what of a "god" and thinks he can do what ever he feels like. Its a video game.. I really hope, that Stephano will learn from this and grow up. Because if not, I feel it only hurts EG and its partners. | ||
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Razac
Netherlands101 Posts
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Isolation
2 Posts
On October 16 2012 17:25 echobong wrote: Holy crap what is wrong with you retards! He obviously didn't rape a girl (maybe just stroking or fingers but I doubt full penetration of a 14 yo girl). Do you idiots think he actually raped someone? My god...idiots. Please let this be a troll. It was obviously a joke, nobody seriously thinks otherwise, but a joke is still inappropriate. Your comment is... shocking. You somehow think that if he touched a 14 year old, it'd be okay...? re: white knight Wasn't referring to you specifically, just similar knee-jerk reactions that lots of posters/gamers give when people start bringing political correctness discussion. I'm not too sure what you're arguing. Are you arguing that basically the gaming community is full of immature, rude, racist, sexist, and unfunny losers, so we shouldn't try to change its image to one that is fun, open-minded, driven, and passionate group of people? Many of the popular commentators have succeed in showing the "nerd" community as what it is: a group of smart people who enjoy playing games and have fun. Are you saying that, to you, gaming is about calling each other racial/homophobic slurs, and making sexist/inappropriate jokes? Because otherwise, I don't see why it would be wrong for the gaming community to keep these problematic behaviour in check... just like any other reasonable community. How can you say that the community is overzealous in persecuting him? The guy only got a one month suspension. In other industries he would've been fired instantly. If anything, this is merely a symbolic gesture really, to show that EG does not condone jokes like that, and good on them. I don't want to support people who think rape jokes are cool either. It's a simple matter; he made a stupid joke, he apologizes, he won't do it again, we move on. Him apologizing and people coming out and acknowledging the fact that it was not acceptable is an important part of moving on. If anything, EG not punishing him would (and should) cause people to talk about this for a lot longer than they will, because they would be silently condoning his actions. | ||
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FrogOfWar
Germany1406 Posts
On October 16 2012 15:49 itkovian wrote: Sorry if I did not meet the literal interpretation of "white-knight", because I think you're referring to me. I was not going about any definition I had hear before, but more the image I had in my mind. The image of someone who puts on bright shining armor to crusade for a "noble" cause. In this case, the cause of legitimizing esports by giving it a "mature and civilized tone." The armor, in the way I see it, would be a metaphor for covering up ones own flaws and acting perfect in order to condemn others from a higher standpoint. That's what I see when I see this drama. A bunch of internet knights fighting over a video game, trying to make it into something they think it should be, while in the process just hurting and polarizing the community. All this dumb drama, and clamoring for a greater morality, just distracts from the game itself. The game is fun. The icons in the community are entertaining. That's all you need. Instead, people have this vision of taking esports big, and pushing out what they think is bad in order to meet the standards they think the game will need to go big. Its just a waste of time, and a waste of attention. And hear I am, wasting my time and attention on this when I really should be doing something else. I guess I'm going off on a tangent rant from this stephano thing. Really, I'm not trying to defend stephano's actions specifically. Its more just me venting my frustration's at this silly PC-monitoring force, that has caused multiple controversies in the past. Coming back and checking out the starcraft news, after a couple months away, has only made me more irate because I had kind of hoped the community would have moved on by now. But no, we're still stuck debating this shit. It's one of the reasons I lost interest in the starcraft scene, and I only believe more of the base will leave with time if it keeps up. And it doesn't help to get new peripheral members, if your base is shrinking. So... have I goaded a second post out of you? ;p You're raising some interesting points, but I think you're confusing two different things. One is the outrage about things like the Stephano incident, the other is the idea that SC2 should grow and go mainstream. Those who think Stephano should be punished might in some cases be the same people that want SC2 to go mainstream, but not in all. And if someone says rape jokes aber bad not because they are bad but because they might look bad in the eyes of a mainstream audience one hopes to attract, he's missed the point why rape jokes are bad. He's poor white knight :p Or to say it more neutrally, ethical reasons for the claim that rape jokes are bad are different from public relations reasons. The latter have to do with political correctness, the former don't. I think having a debate about the notion of SC2 becoming mainstream could be worth having. It seems largely common sense around here that it should, but there are many examples of subcultures losing what made them special when going mainstream. It comes with a cost. In some cases, small is beautiful. On Stephano, I agree with Isolation. The punishment was warranted and needed to demonstrate that a line was crossed, but there's no need for this whole thing to turn into a crusade. It has been handled, let's move on. | ||
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Killscreen
188 Posts
On October 16 2012 18:25 Isolation wrote: Please let this be a troll. It was obviously a joke, nobody seriously thinks otherwise, but a joke is still inappropriate. Your comment is... shocking. You somehow think that if he touched a 14 year old, it'd be okay...? This depends on context. In Spain, it would be OK. US Age of consent does not apply world wide, and 18 is not magically better than 13. They are both arbitrary numbers. | ||
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lungic
Sweden123 Posts
(+2 to marketing)? | ||
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Otolia
France5805 Posts
On October 16 2012 18:35 lungic wrote: Is it just me that thinks EG should change name to Lawful Evil, or perhaps the new D&D alignment, "Corporate Evil". (+2 to marketing)? Corporate Evil is the ultimated combo between all the evils. Choosing the loyal alignment according to the situation | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7917 Posts
And people talk about his need to "mature". Well, i don't like the expression "get a life" but there is something to it. | ||
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Assirra
Belgium4169 Posts
On October 16 2012 20:58 Biff The Understudy wrote: Why people love stupid dramas so much, i will always wonder. Who gives a flying fuck about a joke that was meant to be private, or with stephano sex life in general?? And no, 14 yo is not "pedophilia" unless you consider a 14 years old like a child. And people talk about his need to "mature". Well, i don't like the expression "get a life" but there is something to it. Stephano represents his sponsors so yes he should "mature" or at least not make jokes that obviously can be seen very wrong on battle.net to a person who streams often. | ||
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echobong
Canada92 Posts
It was obviously a joke, nobody seriously thinks otherwise, but a joke is still inappropriate. Your comment is... shocking. You somehow think that if he touched a 14 year old, it'd be okay...? Well, no. I didn't mean it that way. It just seems that some posts are accusing him of actual forceable rape, when it was probably consentual and non-penetrative touching or fondling. Plus, there is no details on how he got in the situation. Perhaps he was very intoxicated or she lied about her age. And also as you said it could be a joke too so I agree with you on that point. | ||
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Boonbag
France3318 Posts
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Snusmumriken
Sweden1717 Posts
On October 16 2012 11:01 oBlade wrote: Forgive me if I didn't assume you were meticulous enough to distinguish between if and iff given the frequency of spelling errors in your posts. Here is the person who originally spoke using if and only if to describe a set of individually necessary and jointly sufficient conditions. A conjunction's exhaustive nature justifies using iff. Here's you using material implication instead of a biconditional, but implying an exhaustive list by including 4+ conditions with an ellipsis when Killscreen only implied 3 conditions. It doesn't matter if you don't use iff. His logic is of the form Your logic is of the form These are equivalent, almost by definition, work it out if you like. So here you were nitpicking nothing. It doesn't matter whether you use a disjunction of negatives or a conjunction of positives, the result is the same. I feel like I'm being jerked around. Should I give you my pager number in case you ever claim something besides that you didn't think the joke was funny? Im not a native english speaker and yes I make typos sometimes. I dont know if youre generally a fan of ad hominems but I still like to think that you have more intellectual honesty than that. At any rate theres certainly a difference between making and iff-list and what I wrote as his claimed to be both sufficient and necessary whereas I only claimed mine to be sufficient. Your word to the contrary, the elipssis did not turn my material implication into a double implication. Again the context is that I said you can't actually make some kind of dummies-guide to morality using lists, so again I dont believe that you can make an exhaustive list no more than I believe the meaning of a word necessarily comes from a definition ('game'). It is at any rate what I meant, and I don't want to have to keep defending a position I don't actually hold. Having said that, since you keep assuming things about me that are false I will try to make it clear what I actually do believe. Especially since the only thing ive written in this thread is in response to others and the faulty assumption that you cant dislike rapejokes and reddit at the same time just because they made sure he was suspended... which is of course absolutely ridiculous. The following are not necessarily answers to you specifically: 1) a: hey b: hey a: I abused a 14-year old the other night b  a: yeah. I think im only interested in milfs and kids now That, to me, isnt funny. It would equally not be funny if it went like this a: hey b: hey a: I killed a person the other night b a: yeah. it was an old woman. I think Im only interested in murdering old women and kids now. However if thats funny to you, then by all means go ahead and keep at it. Just dont expect to do so in certain places without any reprecussions. 2) The reason why I brought up the fact that it isnt funny is that when it isnt funny, its not even obvious its a joke at all (especially since the actual words spoken by stephano are entirely possible to be true in that he couldve had sex with a 14-year old the other night). I certainly wouldnt interpret it as one if I just read those words, especially when the followup is: a) Fuck I hope youre not broadcasting this right now. I mean what kind of an idiot tries to salvage the situation by making it crystal-clear that hes worried, which in turn furthers the suspicion that it might have had some truth to it. That type of stupidity, in conjunction with blings facial expressions, is pure comedy gold. 3) when its not even funny (to me and others), it brings the persons character up to question much more than if it indeed was obvious that it was only a joke and nothing more. Which, surpise surpise, is the case in the setting of a comedian at a comedyclub (unless you yell 'nigger' 10 times so even that setting has its limits it seems). 4) Freedom of speech is extremely important for many reasons and there should be very few things you actually shouldnt be allowed to say legally, and I definately defend Stephanos right to be legally able to make such jokes if he wants to. The good news is that he is. Stephano can rapejoke just as much as he likes, just not if he wants to be on team EG and not if he wants certain sponsors (at least not when he can be heard). And what is the problem exactly with that? After all, saying these types of jokes says a lot about the character of a person and apparently EG does not want to be associated with such characters. Whether for pure business-reasons, social reasons or both it doesnt really matter. The whole idea that you should be able to joke about anything you want anywhere and everywhere without any reprecussions is like going to work dressed in a pirate-costume every day and then being surprised when ur fired. 5) If Stephano had said it truly privately, then it wouldnt have been a problem because we wouldnt have known. Now he said it publicly, even though he wasnt aware of it, and tough luck shit happens but now we know what kind of humour he likes which in turn says something about his character. Some years ago a jewish preacher here in Stockholm forgot to turn off his microphone when he went to the toilet (in the synagogue). While in there, he called his mistress and talked with her about how much he loved her and how much he wanted to leave his family etc. etc., all while his wife and kids was in the audience. Suffice to say he was fired, and he couldnt bullshit his way out of it just because "well it wasnt supposed to be heard by you guys". 6) If reddit has the ability to put people in the sc2 pro-scene who publicly making rapejokes under scrutiny by their sponsors and by their team, then I have no issue with that. If they do it just for the lulz, well thats their business and I dont condone that but just as a bad person can do something good without meaning to, so can reddit. Come back when they get the power to have white-ra suspended from being too nice to people and I will agree that their malicious intent has been coupled with too much actual power. 7) we dont always know whether or not jokes hurt people. For example, when I grew up I had a lot of trouble telling people in my school that I was half-jewish. The reason for that is that everyone around me who didnt know kept telling quite horrendous jokes about jews. Being quite young, I naturally assumed that being jewish must somehow be abnormal, that I was somehow flawed because of this and that nobody would like me if they knew. These "harmless jokes" caused me a great deal of suffering as a kid. I could see how some people similarly might be caused suffering by certain types of rapejokes. Does that mean I think you shouldnt be legally allowed to make jokes about the holocaust or about jews? Not at all. Just dont expect me to like it when you do. Especially if its not even funny, which really is a prerequisite for the subjective experience of it being a joke at all. So heres the gist of it: Should one legally be able to joke about pretty much anything given some restrictions such as threatening people? Yes, probably Does that mean one should be able to joke about anything and everything everywhere and at any time without there being any reprecussion? Probably not. It certainly does not follow from the former, and if you wish to argue this you can but it must be done with its own justification. This is what I believe. Now do I actually personally think its a big deal that he wrote what he wrote, assuming it was only a joke? No, I dont. Others may, and they're entitled to feel that way, just like you're entitled not to. Just as EG is entitled (assuming they have the legal right) to do what they did. And you are entitled not to like that, but I would like to see you actually make a coherent argument as to why Stephano has been wronged by EG here. I dont think you can, and that seems to be why you keep throwing straw men, in my opinion faulty utilitarian arguments and ad hominems around. It seems to me that youre the one trying to force your opinion onto others in the sense that "whatever a person says, if its (claimed to be) a joke, then you cant be held responsible for it in any way, shape or form". ps. bear in mind that all of this is given the assumption that it was just a joke, something which isnt evident to me and seemingly not to EG either as they write: The full extent of the ramifications for Stephano’s comments is yet to be determined. The decision to suspend him, without pay, for the rest of October is final, but the situation is still being reviewed internally at EG, and we do not consider the matter closed as of yet. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7917 Posts
On October 16 2012 21:07 Assirra wrote: Stephano represents his sponsors so yes he should "mature" or at least not make jokes that obviously can be seen very wrong on battle.net to a person who streams often. Just, you know, think of all the bad and tasteless jokes you have done in your life, or the stupid stuff you have bragged about, real or imaginary. Done? Now, imagine also that they are made public because of you being a bit careless, and that there is suddenly an army of judgmental nerds making a huge drama on that basis. And then you realize how fucking stupid the whole story is. Oh, and the fact that Stephano brags privately to his friend about """raping""" a 14 years old girl (what, he kissed a teenager or something: fucking big deal, hope it makes it to the New York Times) has nothing to do with his sponsors. Unless encompassing this disgraceful puritanist bullshit is the reason they are paying him for. I thought it was about playing a video game, but everybody makes mistakes. | ||
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hephaestos
France54 Posts
[ How can you say that the community is overzealous in persecuting him? The guy only got a one month suspension. In other industries he would've been fired instantly. If anything, this is merely a symbolic gesture really, to show that EG does not condone jokes like that, and good on them. I don't want to support people who think rape jokes are cool either. It's a simple matter; he made a stupid joke, he apologizes, he won't do it again, we move on. Him apologizing and people coming out and acknowledging the fact that it was not acceptable is an important part of moving on. Frankly, I would be totally ok with that. What I find disturbing is mainly the part when they say the subject is still open, and they don't know what the final word of this story will be. It implies that there is much more, that it needs serious decision, that some people will have to meet, to decide what is wrong and what punishment he trully deserves. To sum up, what they are saying is that they will judge him. I am not ok with that, not for that kind of action. It feels wrong. | ||
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Assirra
Belgium4169 Posts
On October 16 2012 21:23 Biff The Understudy wrote: Just, you know, think of all the bad and tasteless jokes you have done in your life, or the stupid stuff you have bragged about, real or imaginary. Done? Now, imagine also that they are made public because of you being a bit careless, and that there is suddenly an army of judgmental nerds making a huge drama on that basis. And then you realize how fucking stupid the whole story is. Oh, and the fact that Stephano brags privately to his friend about """raping""" a 14 years old girl (what, he kissed a teenager or something: fucking big deal, hope it makes it to the New York Times) has nothing to do with his sponsors. Unless encompassing this disgraceful puritanist bullshit is the reason they are paying him for. I thought it was about playing a video game, but everybody makes mistakes. People would not give a shit about my jokes cause guess what, i am not a popular person that is in a popular team that is sponsored by popular products/brands. What are they gonne do? email my parents?  Welcome to the real world where being popular is not all sunshine and rainbows. You will have fans that try to justify everything you do and you will have people that will find any reason possible to make you look bad. | ||
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Salteador Neo
Andorra5591 Posts
On October 16 2012 18:24 Razac wrote: Just imagine this happening in the soccer-scene... It would be an outrage, so yes i think this is good what EG did. It'll make E-Sports more mature. Benzema fucked with a minor and nothing happened. Btw 140 pages of e-drama makes this forum kinda lolzy. | ||
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Bill Murray
United States9292 Posts
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
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reDDevil7
South Africa72 Posts
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rox.kis.Kitsune
Greenland3 Posts
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