|
Think before you post. This should go without saying, there are so many people making absolutely idiotic comments in this thread. If you have nothing constructive to say, please don't say anything. |
On September 06 2012 06:26 genius_man16 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 05:51 crms wrote:On September 06 2012 05:26 Zeon0 wrote:On September 05 2012 07:52 Shodaa wrote:On September 05 2012 07:44 starception wrote:On September 05 2012 07:22 BWalma wrote:
Well Stephano one if not THE best foreigner out there. I don't know to much of Millenium but Stephano must have a reason to be leaving. Now if he ends up going to EG is it because of trading players or is it because EG will help benefit Stephano better then Millenium? I don't really hear a lot of EG players winner major tournaments all the time. I hope EG will help Stephano if the rumors are true. has stephano ever made 2 ro4 gsl? didnt think so. jinro will always be the best foreigner. naniwa and idra next for making ro8 twice. then maybe stephano In term of result Jinro runs might be impressive (still at the time the quality of player in GSL wasn't as good as today) In term of raw skill Stephano is far ahead. an olympic gold medal in the 80s is as worthy as one today, despite the level was much lower GSL ro4 was awesome, dont take anything away from Jinros achievements I don't think this it's as worthy at all, that's silly. I still think it's a tremendous accomplishment and should be hearlded but to say they are equal (80s medal vs today, gslro4 last year vs today) is incredibly naive and dishonest. We should respect the accomplishments of players but also be mindful of the context around the achievements. This preserves respect for past events but is more intellectually honest. I mean Babe Ruth likely wouldn't make it on a AAA team in this generation. Yet we still respect him as a ball player and recognize his success in his era. Arguments like this don't make sense. If Babe Ruth grew up in THIS time period who is to say that he still wouldn't have been one of the best players ever? Deciding that you can take the Babe Ruth from 90 years ago and have him face today's pitchers and say "oh well obviously he's not as good" is what's truly naive and dishonest. Baseball was an entirely different game 90 years ago, same as starcraft was 1 year+ ago. Jinro is the only foreigner to make two Ro4's, and that makes him accomplishment-wise, one of the best ever. Now does that mean he would get to Ro4's today? No, but so what? That's incredibly irrelevant. Stephano was playing just as 'terribly' as everyone else was 1 year ago, otherwise he would have won everything.
Actually, Stephano was winning everything a year ago, just about, because he was entering only online tournaments (since he was just finishing up school). At the time a lot of people were saying he hadn't won anything because he wasn't winning LANs (because he wasn't entering them). Then he graduated from high school and started participating in LANs and immediately started winning those as well (IPL3 and ESWC and a third place finish in the ASUS ROG). Stephano has probably been the best foreigner for a long, long time and talent wise of course he was; he just didn't have enough resutls for people to crown him the best foreigner. At this point the only relevant debate left is whether he's the best zerg. Currently he has the best ELO of all races in vT and vP matchups (for International tournaments). Only his zvz keeps him from being a clear #1 (for all races). I still say he's probably the best zerg but I understand that people might resist saying he's the best because of his zvz. He's without question top 3.
|
On September 06 2012 06:26 genius_man16 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 05:51 crms wrote:On September 06 2012 05:26 Zeon0 wrote:On September 05 2012 07:52 Shodaa wrote:On September 05 2012 07:44 starception wrote:On September 05 2012 07:22 BWalma wrote:
Well Stephano one if not THE best foreigner out there. I don't know to much of Millenium but Stephano must have a reason to be leaving. Now if he ends up going to EG is it because of trading players or is it because EG will help benefit Stephano better then Millenium? I don't really hear a lot of EG players winner major tournaments all the time. I hope EG will help Stephano if the rumors are true. has stephano ever made 2 ro4 gsl? didnt think so. jinro will always be the best foreigner. naniwa and idra next for making ro8 twice. then maybe stephano In term of result Jinro runs might be impressive (still at the time the quality of player in GSL wasn't as good as today) In term of raw skill Stephano is far ahead. an olympic gold medal in the 80s is as worthy as one today, despite the level was much lower GSL ro4 was awesome, dont take anything away from Jinros achievements I don't think this it's as worthy at all, that's silly. I still think it's a tremendous accomplishment and should be hearlded but to say they are equal (80s medal vs today, gslro4 last year vs today) is incredibly naive and dishonest. We should respect the accomplishments of players but also be mindful of the context around the achievements. This preserves respect for past events but is more intellectually honest. I mean Babe Ruth likely wouldn't make it on a AAA team in this generation. Yet we still respect him as a ball player and recognize his success in his era. Arguments like this don't make sense. If Babe Ruth grew up in THIS time period who is to say that he still wouldn't have been one of the best players ever? Deciding that you can take the Babe Ruth from 90 years ago and have him face today's pitchers and say "oh well obviously he's not as good" is what's truly naive and dishonest. Baseball was an entirely different game 90 years ago, same as starcraft was 1 year+ ago. Jinro is the only foreigner to make two Ro4's, and that makes him accomplishment-wise, one of the best ever. Now does that mean he would get to Ro4's today? No, but so what? That's incredibly irrelevant. Stephano was playing just as 'terribly' as everyone else was 1 year ago, otherwise he would have won everything.
If this, if that, will be speculated till the end of time. The only thing we can really do is look at the accomplishments and the context surrounding those accomplishments. I'm sorry to say but it's just not the same. Time and context change everything. Jinro's accomplishments (like Ruth's) will always be and always should be respected but they cannot hold the same weight as accomplishments made today, tomorrow, next week or 10 years from now if the sport or activity continues to advance. It doesn't work that way.
|
On September 06 2012 08:46 crms wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 06:26 genius_man16 wrote:On September 06 2012 05:51 crms wrote:On September 06 2012 05:26 Zeon0 wrote:On September 05 2012 07:52 Shodaa wrote:On September 05 2012 07:44 starception wrote:On September 05 2012 07:22 BWalma wrote:
Well Stephano one if not THE best foreigner out there. I don't know to much of Millenium but Stephano must have a reason to be leaving. Now if he ends up going to EG is it because of trading players or is it because EG will help benefit Stephano better then Millenium? I don't really hear a lot of EG players winner major tournaments all the time. I hope EG will help Stephano if the rumors are true. has stephano ever made 2 ro4 gsl? didnt think so. jinro will always be the best foreigner. naniwa and idra next for making ro8 twice. then maybe stephano In term of result Jinro runs might be impressive (still at the time the quality of player in GSL wasn't as good as today) In term of raw skill Stephano is far ahead. an olympic gold medal in the 80s is as worthy as one today, despite the level was much lower GSL ro4 was awesome, dont take anything away from Jinros achievements I don't think this it's as worthy at all, that's silly. I still think it's a tremendous accomplishment and should be hearlded but to say they are equal (80s medal vs today, gslro4 last year vs today) is incredibly naive and dishonest. We should respect the accomplishments of players but also be mindful of the context around the achievements. This preserves respect for past events but is more intellectually honest. I mean Babe Ruth likely wouldn't make it on a AAA team in this generation. Yet we still respect him as a ball player and recognize his success in his era. Arguments like this don't make sense. If Babe Ruth grew up in THIS time period who is to say that he still wouldn't have been one of the best players ever? Deciding that you can take the Babe Ruth from 90 years ago and have him face today's pitchers and say "oh well obviously he's not as good" is what's truly naive and dishonest. Baseball was an entirely different game 90 years ago, same as starcraft was 1 year+ ago. Jinro is the only foreigner to make two Ro4's, and that makes him accomplishment-wise, one of the best ever. Now does that mean he would get to Ro4's today? No, but so what? That's incredibly irrelevant. Stephano was playing just as 'terribly' as everyone else was 1 year ago, otherwise he would have won everything. If this, if that, will be speculated till the end of time. The only thing we can really do is look at the accomplishments and the context surrounding those accomplishments. I'm sorry to say but it's just not the same. Time and context change everything. Jinro's accomplishments (like Ruth's) will always be and always should be respected but they cannot hold the same weight as accomplishments made today, tomorrow, next week or 10 years from now if the sport or activity continues to advance. It doesn't work that way.
See that's the problem with your argument, there is no 'context' surrounding the accomplishments except how much they mattered when they happened.
By your logic a Super Bowl 20 years ago is worth less than a super bowl today, and that makes no sense. Are you also saying that MC's first GSL title is less than his second? Same with Mvp or Nestea?
Jinro has the best accomplishments of any foreigner to date, I don't care if Stephano wasn't even born when Jinro made his two Ro4 runs, Jinro still has accomplished more.
However I will admit that Jinro didn't really win any foreign tournaments other than MLG, but to be fair 1. He was focusing all his time on GSL and 2. there weren't nearly the plethora of tournaments available that there are today, I mean hell IPL and NASL weren't even tournaments yet
|
Seriously, being twice in Ro4 of GSL means nothing. There were many players in history of GSL who came that far and what? They were never heard of again. On the other hand if Jinro won entire thing...
|
On September 06 2012 21:18 Embir wrote:
Seriously, being twice in Ro4 of GSL means nothing. There were many players in history of GSL who came that far and what? They were never heard of again. On the other hand if Jinro won entire thing...
Lol what foreigner did that?
don't be a hater..
|
Oh boy, here we go again.
|
On September 06 2012 21:12 genius_man16 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 08:46 crms wrote:On September 06 2012 06:26 genius_man16 wrote:On September 06 2012 05:51 crms wrote:On September 06 2012 05:26 Zeon0 wrote:On September 05 2012 07:52 Shodaa wrote:On September 05 2012 07:44 starception wrote:On September 05 2012 07:22 BWalma wrote:
Well Stephano one if not THE best foreigner out there. I don't know to much of Millenium but Stephano must have a reason to be leaving. Now if he ends up going to EG is it because of trading players or is it because EG will help benefit Stephano better then Millenium? I don't really hear a lot of EG players winner major tournaments all the time. I hope EG will help Stephano if the rumors are true. has stephano ever made 2 ro4 gsl? didnt think so. jinro will always be the best foreigner. naniwa and idra next for making ro8 twice. then maybe stephano In term of result Jinro runs might be impressive (still at the time the quality of player in GSL wasn't as good as today) In term of raw skill Stephano is far ahead. an olympic gold medal in the 80s is as worthy as one today, despite the level was much lower GSL ro4 was awesome, dont take anything away from Jinros achievements I don't think this it's as worthy at all, that's silly. I still think it's a tremendous accomplishment and should be hearlded but to say they are equal (80s medal vs today, gslro4 last year vs today) is incredibly naive and dishonest. We should respect the accomplishments of players but also be mindful of the context around the achievements. This preserves respect for past events but is more intellectually honest. I mean Babe Ruth likely wouldn't make it on a AAA team in this generation. Yet we still respect him as a ball player and recognize his success in his era. Arguments like this don't make sense. If Babe Ruth grew up in THIS time period who is to say that he still wouldn't have been one of the best players ever? Deciding that you can take the Babe Ruth from 90 years ago and have him face today's pitchers and say "oh well obviously he's not as good" is what's truly naive and dishonest. Baseball was an entirely different game 90 years ago, same as starcraft was 1 year+ ago. Jinro is the only foreigner to make two Ro4's, and that makes him accomplishment-wise, one of the best ever. Now does that mean he would get to Ro4's today? No, but so what? That's incredibly irrelevant. Stephano was playing just as 'terribly' as everyone else was 1 year ago, otherwise he would have won everything. If this, if that, will be speculated till the end of time. The only thing we can really do is look at the accomplishments and the context surrounding those accomplishments. I'm sorry to say but it's just not the same. Time and context change everything. Jinro's accomplishments (like Ruth's) will always be and always should be respected but they cannot hold the same weight as accomplishments made today, tomorrow, next week or 10 years from now if the sport or activity continues to advance. It doesn't work that way. See that's the problem with your argument, there is no 'context' surrounding the accomplishments except how much they mattered when they happened. By your logic a Super Bowl 20 years ago is worth less than a super bowl today, and that makes no sense. Are you also saying that MC's first GSL title is less than his second? Same with Mvp or Nestea? Jinro has the best accomplishments of any foreigner to date, I don't care if Stephano wasn't even born when Jinro made his two Ro4 runs, Jinro still has accomplished more. However I will admit that Jinro didn't really win any foreign tournaments other than MLG, but to be fair 1. He was focusing all his time on GSL and 2. there weren't nearly the plethora of tournaments available that there are today, I mean hell IPL and NASL weren't even tournaments yet
Well that was the time when one base BC rush was a valid strategy...
|
On September 06 2012 21:55 Frankon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 21:12 genius_man16 wrote:On September 06 2012 08:46 crms wrote:On September 06 2012 06:26 genius_man16 wrote:On September 06 2012 05:51 crms wrote:On September 06 2012 05:26 Zeon0 wrote:On September 05 2012 07:52 Shodaa wrote:On September 05 2012 07:44 starception wrote:On September 05 2012 07:22 BWalma wrote:
Well Stephano one if not THE best foreigner out there. I don't know to much of Millenium but Stephano must have a reason to be leaving. Now if he ends up going to EG is it because of trading players or is it because EG will help benefit Stephano better then Millenium? I don't really hear a lot of EG players winner major tournaments all the time. I hope EG will help Stephano if the rumors are true. has stephano ever made 2 ro4 gsl? didnt think so. jinro will always be the best foreigner. naniwa and idra next for making ro8 twice. then maybe stephano In term of result Jinro runs might be impressive (still at the time the quality of player in GSL wasn't as good as today) In term of raw skill Stephano is far ahead. an olympic gold medal in the 80s is as worthy as one today, despite the level was much lower GSL ro4 was awesome, dont take anything away from Jinros achievements I don't think this it's as worthy at all, that's silly. I still think it's a tremendous accomplishment and should be hearlded but to say they are equal (80s medal vs today, gslro4 last year vs today) is incredibly naive and dishonest. We should respect the accomplishments of players but also be mindful of the context around the achievements. This preserves respect for past events but is more intellectually honest. I mean Babe Ruth likely wouldn't make it on a AAA team in this generation. Yet we still respect him as a ball player and recognize his success in his era. Arguments like this don't make sense. If Babe Ruth grew up in THIS time period who is to say that he still wouldn't have been one of the best players ever? Deciding that you can take the Babe Ruth from 90 years ago and have him face today's pitchers and say "oh well obviously he's not as good" is what's truly naive and dishonest. Baseball was an entirely different game 90 years ago, same as starcraft was 1 year+ ago. Jinro is the only foreigner to make two Ro4's, and that makes him accomplishment-wise, one of the best ever. Now does that mean he would get to Ro4's today? No, but so what? That's incredibly irrelevant. Stephano was playing just as 'terribly' as everyone else was 1 year ago, otherwise he would have won everything. If this, if that, will be speculated till the end of time. The only thing we can really do is look at the accomplishments and the context surrounding those accomplishments. I'm sorry to say but it's just not the same. Time and context change everything. Jinro's accomplishments (like Ruth's) will always be and always should be respected but they cannot hold the same weight as accomplishments made today, tomorrow, next week or 10 years from now if the sport or activity continues to advance. It doesn't work that way. See that's the problem with your argument, there is no 'context' surrounding the accomplishments except how much they mattered when they happened. By your logic a Super Bowl 20 years ago is worth less than a super bowl today, and that makes no sense. Are you also saying that MC's first GSL title is less than his second? Same with Mvp or Nestea? Jinro has the best accomplishments of any foreigner to date, I don't care if Stephano wasn't even born when Jinro made his two Ro4 runs, Jinro still has accomplished more. However I will admit that Jinro didn't really win any foreign tournaments other than MLG, but to be fair 1. He was focusing all his time on GSL and 2. there weren't nearly the plethora of tournaments available that there are today, I mean hell IPL and NASL weren't even tournaments yet Well that was the time when one base BC rush was a valid strategy...
The fact that sports develop doesn't mean that people in the later stages of development are more inherently talented than their predecessors, it's just relatively easier to reach higher "objective" plateaus because a lot of things have already been figured out in terms of strategy and training so people can reach higher faster.
|
On September 05 2012 06:57 TheDougler wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 04:17 AirbladeOrange wrote:On September 05 2012 04:06 TSBspartacus wrote:On September 05 2012 03:59 AirbladeOrange wrote:On September 05 2012 03:49 Dagan159 wrote:
Was really funny watching Demuslim's stream last night... He hit Incontrol, Incontrol, Incontrol, Stephano...
are there any good players outisde EG in america? =P Are you saying Idra and Suppy are the best Americans? No he didn't, he said that EG have some of the best players in America. Which is true, stop trying to flame and start arguments, seriously this thread is just full of hate for EG and guys baiting it. No he said, "Are there any good players outside EG in America?" I'm not trying to do that  I'm not sure if he meant Idra and Suppy are the only good Americans or that whoever is in the EG house right now are the best Americans. In any case, there is a very strong case to be made for Vibe being the best American. Being the highest placing American in WCS NA and Champion of WCS USA.
To be fair the NA scene fields the lowest quality of players. Being the best in NA is like being the tallest midget. Best in EU and in Asia are far, far, far more prestigious.
|
Can we pretty please get back on topic? What do Jinro's achievements have to do with Stephano leaving Millenium?
I personally don't think it's going to be EG. I'm quite sure they would have hyped it up a loooot more.
|
On September 06 2012 22:51 ref4 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 06:57 TheDougler wrote:On September 05 2012 04:17 AirbladeOrange wrote:On September 05 2012 04:06 TSBspartacus wrote:On September 05 2012 03:59 AirbladeOrange wrote:On September 05 2012 03:49 Dagan159 wrote:
Was really funny watching Demuslim's stream last night... He hit Incontrol, Incontrol, Incontrol, Stephano...
are there any good players outisde EG in america? =P Are you saying Idra and Suppy are the best Americans? No he didn't, he said that EG have some of the best players in America. Which is true, stop trying to flame and start arguments, seriously this thread is just full of hate for EG and guys baiting it. No he said, "Are there any good players outside EG in America?" I'm not trying to do that I'm not sure if he meant Idra and Suppy are the only good Americans or that whoever is in the EG house right now are the best Americans. In any case, there is a very strong case to be made for Vibe being the best American. Being the highest placing American in WCS NA and Champion of WCS USA. To be fair the NA scene fields the lowest quality of players. Being the best in NA is like being the tallest midget. Best in EU and in Asia are far, far, far more prestigious.
i love your quote <3
but i think you are not quite right, I think the difference between EU and Korea is much bigger than between EU and NA.
on topic: at least one thing is (quite) certain: we will now his new team in about a week, because i dont think he will be teamless when competing in WCS Europe
|
On September 06 2012 22:03 Saechiis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 21:55 Frankon wrote:On September 06 2012 21:12 genius_man16 wrote:On September 06 2012 08:46 crms wrote:On September 06 2012 06:26 genius_man16 wrote:On September 06 2012 05:51 crms wrote:On September 06 2012 05:26 Zeon0 wrote:On September 05 2012 07:52 Shodaa wrote:On September 05 2012 07:44 starception wrote:On September 05 2012 07:22 BWalma wrote:
Well Stephano one if not THE best foreigner out there. I don't know to much of Millenium but Stephano must have a reason to be leaving. Now if he ends up going to EG is it because of trading players or is it because EG will help benefit Stephano better then Millenium? I don't really hear a lot of EG players winner major tournaments all the time. I hope EG will help Stephano if the rumors are true. has stephano ever made 2 ro4 gsl? didnt think so. jinro will always be the best foreigner. naniwa and idra next for making ro8 twice. then maybe stephano In term of result Jinro runs might be impressive (still at the time the quality of player in GSL wasn't as good as today) In term of raw skill Stephano is far ahead. an olympic gold medal in the 80s is as worthy as one today, despite the level was much lower GSL ro4 was awesome, dont take anything away from Jinros achievements I don't think this it's as worthy at all, that's silly. I still think it's a tremendous accomplishment and should be hearlded but to say they are equal (80s medal vs today, gslro4 last year vs today) is incredibly naive and dishonest. We should respect the accomplishments of players but also be mindful of the context around the achievements. This preserves respect for past events but is more intellectually honest. I mean Babe Ruth likely wouldn't make it on a AAA team in this generation. Yet we still respect him as a ball player and recognize his success in his era. Arguments like this don't make sense. If Babe Ruth grew up in THIS time period who is to say that he still wouldn't have been one of the best players ever? Deciding that you can take the Babe Ruth from 90 years ago and have him face today's pitchers and say "oh well obviously he's not as good" is what's truly naive and dishonest. Baseball was an entirely different game 90 years ago, same as starcraft was 1 year+ ago. Jinro is the only foreigner to make two Ro4's, and that makes him accomplishment-wise, one of the best ever. Now does that mean he would get to Ro4's today? No, but so what? That's incredibly irrelevant. Stephano was playing just as 'terribly' as everyone else was 1 year ago, otherwise he would have won everything. If this, if that, will be speculated till the end of time. The only thing we can really do is look at the accomplishments and the context surrounding those accomplishments. I'm sorry to say but it's just not the same. Time and context change everything. Jinro's accomplishments (like Ruth's) will always be and always should be respected but they cannot hold the same weight as accomplishments made today, tomorrow, next week or 10 years from now if the sport or activity continues to advance. It doesn't work that way. See that's the problem with your argument, there is no 'context' surrounding the accomplishments except how much they mattered when they happened. By your logic a Super Bowl 20 years ago is worth less than a super bowl today, and that makes no sense. Are you also saying that MC's first GSL title is less than his second? Same with Mvp or Nestea? Jinro has the best accomplishments of any foreigner to date, I don't care if Stephano wasn't even born when Jinro made his two Ro4 runs, Jinro still has accomplished more. However I will admit that Jinro didn't really win any foreign tournaments other than MLG, but to be fair 1. He was focusing all his time on GSL and 2. there weren't nearly the plethora of tournaments available that there are today, I mean hell IPL and NASL weren't even tournaments yet Well that was the time when one base BC rush was a valid strategy... The fact that sports develop doesn't mean that people in the later stages of development are more inherently talented than their predecessors, it's just relatively easier to reach higher "objective" plateaus because a lot of things have already been figured out in terms of strategy and training so people can reach higher faster.
dude everyting that is already figured out is there for the best and the worst players in the world alike. talent+effort put in distinguishes them... if they both put in the same effort, the talented will go further. so what you wrote is kinda meaningless. in the current situation the ones that were succesful 1 year earlier have the very same data that the ones who are succesful now, if they both train all day, and player A cant perform as he did 1 year ago, when the metagame was about as complex as in silver league, it means he is less talented.
sports analogies are not right for this matter. a runner wouldn't necessarily win against a runner from 50 year old ago, not at all. in sc2 a current pro player would win vs someone who plays like jinro did 1 year ago 99 out of 100 times.
|
confirmed
User was warned for this post
|
Stephano seems to be in the EG house with incontrol. Swear Incontrol just talked to him.
|
lol i love all these people that keep giving updates about stream sightings of stephano being in the EG house.
yes. we've all seen him in EG house.
he's in EG.
EG.
|
On September 06 2012 22:55 Mandalor wrote:
Can we pretty please get back on topic? What do Jinro's achievements have to do with Stephano leaving Millenium?
I personally don't think it's going to be EG. I'm quite sure they would have hyped it up a loooot more.
Did EG hype up the signing of Thorzain. No they didnt. You didnt hear anything until that welcome video came up the day of his signing. Also, Stephano has been staying at the EG house for about a week now. If that alone is not reason enough to infer that he is signing or has already signed with EG then I don't know what to tell you.
|
He stayed in EG house once before while he was still in millenium, so that alone isn't reason enough, but then again, it's pretty obvious.
|
On September 07 2012 05:42 TheDraken wrote:
lol i love all these people that keep giving updates about stream sightings of stephano being in the EG house.
yes. we've all seen him in EG house.
he's in EG.
EG.
He also went to the oGs house a year ago ! Wait ! Did Stephano join oGs !? (  )
|
On September 07 2012 06:26 algue wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 05:42 TheDraken wrote:
lol i love all these people that keep giving updates about stream sightings of stephano being in the EG house.
yes. we've all seen him in EG house.
he's in EG.
EG.
He also went to the oGs house a year ago ! Wait ! Did Stephano join oGs !? ( )
Your logic is flawless. He was under contract with Mill while at the oGs house. He is not under contract now. So him being at the EG house now is a pretty big indicator that he will sign with EG if he is not signed with them already. Players that are signed with EG usually stay at their team house.
|
I'd like to see him join someone other than EG, but that's just my bias talking.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
