How do you feel about taking out sC in the last set and advancing to the second round of the losers' bracket?
I didn't have much expectations when I arrived so I feel so great that I won like this.
Why didn't you have any expectations?
I am still lacking in so many areas that I just told myself that I wouldn't sweat over this and just play with a calm mind. I'm playing in this tournament with the mindset of gathering valuable experience.
Was it a shame that you lost to aLive?
If I look back at my games vs aLive I definitely have regrets. My games against aLive helped me realize I still have a lot of things to work on.
How were today's games?
I think I some luck followed me today. I won the games but I felt that I was still lacking a lot in certain areas. I realized that my games still aren't going the way I want them to. But I feel good because I was able to gain some confidence through today's victory.
In game 3, you made a comeback.
The game had a lot of shakes and turns. It seems that when KeSPA players go up against GSL players, the KeSPA players have the advantage. GSL players' burden of losing to KeSPA players is heavy so if it goes all the way to the third game, that burden gets even heavier. In my case, I was able to play peacefully so I think I was able to make a comeback.
It seems that your performances have gotten better lately.
As of right now, I still don't feel like I'm improving. My performances have their ups and downs so I can't be certain. At least my style still works well in ProLeague.
Thanks to today's victory you'll probably get a lot of recognition. Aren't you burdened by this?
Lately I've been dropping a lot my burdens. I just play to be rewarded for my efforts so I do my best. Right now I'm not the best but I have the confidence that one day I will be the best so I am gathering a lot of experience for that day.
Your next opponent is SlayerS_Genius.
I can't say that I am completely confident since I am still lacking in a lot of things. I will do my best to make sure I don't lose easily. It's going to be hard to ensure my victory but I won't show a performance where I lose easily.
If you had anything to say to your fans.
I really appreciate all their support. I think it's because of my fans that I can focus better on my games.
How do you feel about overcoming DongRaeGu and advancing to the second round of the losers' bracket?
I thought there was no losers' bracket to begin with but after I heard that there was one I got excited again. Playing someone who is good at ZvZ like DongRaeGu made me 50% excited and 50% nervous.
You were able to win the first game, how was that?
I was really dazed after winning game one. I think I won game one because it went the way I wanted it to. Normally if KeSPa players get to the third game, they request that Tal'Darim Altar or Shakuras Plateau be removed but I wanted to win in a battle of wits so I didn't exclude Tal'Darim Altar.
In game three, you won in the final battle.
I didn't really prepare for it. When it came to Tal'Darim Altar, it was a map that I had practiced on before the ProLeague. So I played with those past games in my mind.
In game three, you ensured your victory toward the end.
I don't really know myself. Physically and multitasking wise, I think they're about the same. While I was playing I felt like I was doing really well, and luck was on my side today so I won.
It seems that KeSPA players have made a lot of progress towards the GSL players. What do you think?
Personally, I feel like we've made significant progress. It's just that since we have many areas in which we still need to work on, we are practicing harder so that we can get the skills that can be comparable to the GSL players.
You face GuMiho next.
I am confident. If I prepare extensively, I can defeat GuMiho like I did with DongRaeGu.
If you had to evaluate your own SC2 skills.
If I had to evaluate myself I would say I'm still lacking in SC2. As long as I work hard, I think the fans will understand my performances.
Are you confident enough to become a representative for Korea?
I still have a long way to go so I can't say for sure. But since I'm practicing so hard for each of my games I am slowly thinking that I am getting to the point where I deserve to be a representative for Korea.
How do you feel about defeating YugiOh and advancing to the second round of the losers' bracket?
It was the losers' bracket so I came without much expectations but I am so happy that I was able to win like this. Thanks to the WCS, I am gaining a lot of confidence.
Exactly what parts are you getting your confidence from?
I am gaining confidence through my games against GSL players. I am feeling and learning so many things through my games with GSL players so I feel really good about that.
How did you prepare for today's games?
I prepared as I would have prepared for any other game but today the build orders got criss-crossed so I think I won easily.
You must be feeling regret because of your last loss.
The games went really well but I lost by a foot so it was a shame.
Ever since converting to Protoss for SC2 you seem to be doing really well.
If I look at the results I've made I think it was a great choice. Aside from having to practice BW from time to time I'm satisfied with everything.
Jaedong and EffOrt both won before your match so did you feel like you also had to win?
I don't know if I'm simple or what but I didn't think that way. For some reason I seem to be less nervous for my WCS games than my ProLeague games. I felt like I had nothing to lose from playing against people who were better to begin with but I'm playing against GSL players like this during the WCS with a calm mind.
You face TAiLS next.
It's a PvP so my chances of winning are 50/50. My opponent is really good but since it's a PvP I think I have a good chance of winning.
You're doing really well in the ProLeague. What is your driving force?
I think I decide build order better than the other players. I've had many instances where I won because I picked the better build order. My teammates help me as well and I optimize build order that fit SC2 really well. That's why I create a lot of great strategies and do really well for ProLeague.
Is there a player in SC2 that you study?
I study StarTale_Squirtle a lot. I think Squirtle is a really good quality player.
Liquid`HerO also uses the ID 'Hero'.
I'm still scared of him. I still think I am the inferior 'Hero'. I want to get better and become the superior 'Hero'.
Anything else you would like to say?
I want to thank my teammates who helped me out even though it was their day off.
How do you feel about defeating HerO and advancing to the next round?
I am friends with HerO hyung so rather than feeling happy about it I actually feel really down.
How did you prepare for today's games?
It was not easy to prepare for this. I kept thinking that the more I practice, the more harm it would do to me so I just focused on laddering.
In game one, you lost in a base race.
Recently I've been working on my mentality so it didn't affect me all that much. Before the final battle occurred I thought that I was going to win for sure. From my view, I had more stalkers so I was confident that I would win but as it turns out, HerO hyung had hidden some of his stalkers. He got me with that.
Didn't the loss from game one follow you to game two?
I was confident that I could turn it around. Recently, I've started laddering again and my skills from when I was at top of the ladder is coming out again. So I was confident because of that.
How did you feel about the matches that went on before yours?
KeSPA players have a lot more televised match experiences than GSL players. So I think they are better experts at performing for televised matches than us.
GSL players seems to be feeling a lot of burden about losing to KeSPA players.
I wish this wasn't so. Most of them say they've only been practicing for three months but in reality, a lot of them started way before that. Just like they were preparing for SC2 before ProLeague, these players have been practicing SC2 for a long time.
It seems the gap between GSL and KeSPA players has shortened.
In the beginning there was a huge gap but that gap's gotten a lot smaller now. Since KeSPA players are getting better it's really good practice for us.
You face Puzzle in the round of eight.
PvP is all about luck and build orders so I will believe in that. Skill is important too but PvP is more about luck.
Anything else you would like to say?
I want to apologize to HerO hyung for beating him. I hope he can make his way back to the top through the losers' bracket. I want to thank NaGi for practicing with me, my acquaintances, my friends, and my family. I want to thank our sponsors Ttesports, Summer Take, and OCZ.
I was such fan of pre-retirement in peak EffOrt's play, but after he came back after his hiatus i couldn't see the neo-sAviOr in him. But maybe, just maybe EffOrt is coming back, if he will get back to his glory days, geez sc2 gonna get shaken.
Also lol
Normally if KeSPa players get to the third game, they request that Tal'Darim Altar or Shakuras Plateau be removed but I wanted to win in a battle of wits so I didn't exclude Tal'Darim Altar.
I am confident. If I prepare extensively, I can defeat GuMiho like I did with DongRaeGu.
Shit. Will 2010 happen again?
About JD, hmm still not as good as i want him to be! Tyrant is still dormant for me. So far in terms of ZvT Roro took my heart. JD still too shaky decision making.
Muta/Scourge definitely gave him the mechanical edge in that game with ling bling. Next Zerg to play against him definitely needs to learn how to transition to some sort of roach play a little quicker to help make the ling/bling war go shorter.
If you draw that fight out against a BW zerg, it won't go well for you.
On August 15 2012 00:24 ZeromuS wrote: Effort played so well.
Muta/Scourge definitely gave him the mechanical edge in that game with ling bling. Next Zerg to play against him definitely needs to learn how to transition to some sort of roach play a little quicker to help make the ling/bling war go shorter.
If you draw that fight out against a BW zerg, it won't go well for you.
Effort played so well is understatement of the year, he played one of the best televised ling bane in history of sc2
Effort vs. DRG game 3 is a must watch. That ling/bling micro was completely incredible. I knew Effort could do it, it was basically scourge/muta micro, but the fact that DRG could match him for 5~8 minutes of non-stop micro was impressive. I know DRG is supposed to be in a slump, but that was the best bit of ZvZ micro I've seen from DRG in a long time. DRG just chose the wrong fight.
Yugioh...WTF man. That game three Fantasy GG timing.
On August 15 2012 00:29 YMCApylons wrote: Just caught up with the games...
Effort vs. DRG game 3 is a must watch. That ling/bling micro was completely incredible. I knew Effort could do it, it was basically scourge/muta micro, but the fact that DRG could match him for 5~8 minutes of non-stop micro was impressive. I know DRG is supposed to be in a slump, but that was the best bit of ZvZ micro I've seen from DRG in a long time. DRG just chose the wrong fight.
Yugioh...WTF man. That game three Fantasy GG timing.
On Tal darim openings like that engineer long ling bane wars, if 1 side started to tech roaches they would get overthrown by banes. Also lack of natural expo makes it really hard to defend your drones so it was a ling bane until someone gets advantage and techs.
Jaedong and Effort played really well today. Those bw mechanics truly shined through: Jaedongs macro, creep spread etc. And Effort's micro in ling bling (defending ling bling with pure lings in the beginning). I guess the main thing they are lacking is game sense, but that's something that they will overcome with more practice.
Btw isn't it time for Effort to get his own fanclub?
On August 15 2012 00:33 massivez wrote: Jaedong and Effort played really well today. Those bw mechanics truly shined through: Jaedongs macro, creep spread etc. And Effort's micro in ling bling (defending ling bling with pure lings in the beginning). I guess the main thing they are lacking is game sense, but that's something that they will overcome with more practice.
Btw isn't it time for Effort to get his own fanclub?
I would do it but maintaining the jaedong one is already enough Effort.. ;D SOMEONE MAKE IT NAO
On August 15 2012 00:29 YMCApylons wrote: Just caught up with the games...
Effort vs. DRG game 3 is a must watch. That ling/bling micro was completely incredible. I knew Effort could do it, it was basically scourge/muta micro, but the fact that DRG could match him for 5~8 minutes of non-stop micro was impressive. I know DRG is supposed to be in a slump, but that was the best bit of ZvZ micro I've seen from DRG in a long time. DRG just chose the wrong fight.
Yugioh...WTF man. That game three Fantasy GG timing.
On Tal darim openings like that engineer long ling bane wars, if 1 side started to tech roaches they would get overthrown by banes. Also lack of natural expo makes it really hard to defend your drones so it was a ling bane until someone gets advantage and techs.
There was a game of drg vs losira were drg went ling and like 2 roaches to stomp ling bane. Anyone that remembers that era of drg knows that these games were disappointing in comparison. Even so the speed at which jaedong and effort picked up the game is astonishing.
On August 15 2012 00:29 YMCApylons wrote: Just caught up with the games...
Effort vs. DRG game 3 is a must watch. That ling/bling micro was completely incredible. I knew Effort could do it, it was basically scourge/muta micro, but the fact that DRG could match him for 5~8 minutes of non-stop micro was impressive. I know DRG is supposed to be in a slump, but that was the best bit of ZvZ micro I've seen from DRG in a long time. DRG just chose the wrong fight.
Yugioh...WTF man. That game three Fantasy GG timing.
On Tal darim openings like that engineer long ling bane wars, if 1 side started to tech roaches they would get overthrown by banes. Also lack of natural expo makes it really hard to defend your drones so it was a ling bane until someone gets advantage and techs.
No, the Tyrant is scheming... Do not let his feints fool you...
On August 15 2012 00:29 YMCApylons wrote: Just caught up with the games...
Effort vs. DRG game 3 is a must watch. That ling/bling micro was completely incredible. I knew Effort could do it, it was basically scourge/muta micro, but the fact that DRG could match him for 5~8 minutes of non-stop micro was impressive. I know DRG is supposed to be in a slump, but that was the best bit of ZvZ micro I've seen from DRG in a long time. DRG just chose the wrong fight.
Yugioh...WTF man. That game three Fantasy GG timing.
On Tal darim openings like that engineer long ling bane wars, if 1 side started to tech roaches they would get overthrown by banes. Also lack of natural expo makes it really hard to defend your drones so it was a ling bane until someone gets advantage and techs.
There was a game of drg vs losira were drg went ling and like 2 roaches to stomp ling bane. Anyone that remembers that era of drg knows that these games were disappointing in comparison. Even so the speed at which jaedong and effort picked up the game is astonishing.
Your story is completely irrelevant. 2 roaches dont stop mass speedling on tal darim. Thats why everyone opens 14g14p or certain specific early pools speed like effort did.
On August 15 2012 00:29 YMCApylons wrote: Just caught up with the games...
Effort vs. DRG game 3 is a must watch. That ling/bling micro was completely incredible. I knew Effort could do it, it was basically scourge/muta micro, but the fact that DRG could match him for 5~8 minutes of non-stop micro was impressive. I know DRG is supposed to be in a slump, but that was the best bit of ZvZ micro I've seen from DRG in a long time. DRG just chose the wrong fight.
Yugioh...WTF man. That game three Fantasy GG timing.
On Tal darim openings like that engineer long ling bane wars, if 1 side started to tech roaches they would get overthrown by banes. Also lack of natural expo makes it really hard to defend your drones so it was a ling bane until someone gets advantage and techs.
There was a game of drg vs losira were drg went ling and like 2 roaches to stomp ling bane. Anyone that remembers that era of drg knows that these games were disappointing in comparison. Even so the speed at which jaedong and effort picked up the game is astonishing.
Your story is completely irrelevant. 2 roaches dont stop mass speedling on tal darim. Thats why everyone opens 14g14p or certain specific early pools speed like effort did.
I'm guessing you didn't watch that game then? In any event if you think that's the best micro you've seen from drg in a long time your definition of "long time" simply doesn't match mine.
On August 15 2012 00:29 YMCApylons wrote: Just caught up with the games...
Effort vs. DRG game 3 is a must watch. That ling/bling micro was completely incredible. I knew Effort could do it, it was basically scourge/muta micro, but the fact that DRG could match him for 5~8 minutes of non-stop micro was impressive. I know DRG is supposed to be in a slump, but that was the best bit of ZvZ micro I've seen from DRG in a long time. DRG just chose the wrong fight.
Yugioh...WTF man. That game three Fantasy GG timing.
On Tal darim openings like that engineer long ling bane wars, if 1 side started to tech roaches they would get overthrown by banes. Also lack of natural expo makes it really hard to defend your drones so it was a ling bane until someone gets advantage and techs.
There was a game of drg vs losira were drg went ling and like 2 roaches to stomp ling bane. Anyone that remembers that era of drg knows that these games were disappointing in comparison. Even so the speed at which jaedong and effort picked up the game is astonishing.
Your story is completely irrelevant. 2 roaches dont stop mass speedling on tal darim. Thats why everyone opens 14g14p or certain specific early pools speed like effort did.
I'm guessing you didn't watch that game then? In any event if you think that's the best micro you've seen from drg in a long time your definition of "long time" simply doesn't match mine.
I think you wanted to repond to first comment not mine in the first place. I just answered what you quoted and you quoted mine. Its not me:
On August 15 2012 00:29 YMCApylons wrote: Just caught up with the games...
Effort vs. DRG game 3 is a must watch. That ling/bling micro was completely incredible. I knew Effort could do it, it was basically scourge/muta micro, but the fact that DRG could match him for 5~8 minutes of non-stop micro was impressive. I know DRG is supposed to be in a slump, but that was the best bit of ZvZ micro I've seen from DRG in a long time. DRG just chose the wrong fight.
Yugioh...WTF man. That game three Fantasy GG timing.
I just knew the bw guys would grow better in sc2 given that they have already master of a much more difficult game . Congrats to Jaedong,effort and Hero . Kespa fighting !!!!!!
On August 15 2012 00:29 YMCApylons wrote: Just caught up with the games...
Effort vs. DRG game 3 is a must watch. That ling/bling micro was completely incredible. I knew Effort could do it, it was basically scourge/muta micro, but the fact that DRG could match him for 5~8 minutes of non-stop micro was impressive. I know DRG is supposed to be in a slump, but that was the best bit of ZvZ micro I've seen from DRG in a long time. DRG just chose the wrong fight.
Yugioh...WTF man. That game three Fantasy GG timing.
On Tal darim openings like that engineer long ling bane wars, if 1 side started to tech roaches they would get overthrown by banes. Also lack of natural expo makes it really hard to defend your drones so it was a ling bane until someone gets advantage and techs.
There was a game of drg vs losira were drg went ling and like 2 roaches to stomp ling bane. Anyone that remembers that era of drg knows that these games were disappointing in comparison. Even so the speed at which jaedong and effort picked up the game is astonishing.
Your story is completely irrelevant. 2 roaches dont stop mass speedling on tal darim. Thats why everyone opens 14g14p or certain specific early pools speed like effort did.
I'm guessing you didn't watch that game then? In any event if you think that's the best micro you've seen from drg in a long time your definition of "long time" simply doesn't match mine.
I think you wanted to repond to first comment not mine in the first place. I just answered what you quoted and you quoted mine. Its not me:
On August 15 2012 00:29 YMCApylons wrote: Just caught up with the games...
Effort vs. DRG game 3 is a must watch. That ling/bling micro was completely incredible. I knew Effort could do it, it was basically scourge/muta micro, but the fact that DRG could match him for 5~8 minutes of non-stop micro was impressive. I know DRG is supposed to be in a slump, but that was the best bit of ZvZ micro I've seen from DRG in a long time. DRG just chose the wrong fight.
Yugioh...WTF man. That game three Fantasy GG timing.
:p
Yep I meant to quote him ;P
Still, seeing drg lose a ling bane game for the first time in like 6 months is refreshing and it makes me hopeful to see what the kespa players can achieve after a year or so of practice.
I could see jaedong beating SC as SC has kinda fallen off after his health issues, but effort beating DRG was completely unexpected, I'll have to watch the VODs when I get home from class as I just can't see how it's possible.
Damn didn't think effort would beat DRG. Really happy for jaedong, but wow 3 kespa players won today is very surprising that all of them won. Crazy how fast they improved lol.
On August 15 2012 00:29 YMCApylons wrote: Just caught up with the games...
Effort vs. DRG game 3 is a must watch. That ling/bling micro was completely incredible. I knew Effort could do it, it was basically scourge/muta micro, but the fact that DRG could match him for 5~8 minutes of non-stop micro was impressive. I know DRG is supposed to be in a slump, but that was the best bit of ZvZ micro I've seen from DRG in a long time. DRG just chose the wrong fight.
Yugioh...WTF man. That game three Fantasy GG timing.
On Tal darim openings like that engineer long ling bane wars, if 1 side started to tech roaches they would get overthrown by banes. Also lack of natural expo makes it really hard to defend your drones so it was a ling bane until someone gets advantage and techs.
No, the Tyrant is scheming... Do not let his feints fool you...
Happy for the Kespa pros. BW FIGHTING!
This. Very happy to see the BW pros acclimating to SC2 and starting to have strong showings. The influx of great players and competition can only be good for SC2.
Thank you very much for the translations, good work as usual ...but why oh why, Seeker, did you post those pictures (the ones with the grey large animals)...that thread was one of the worst and dumbest one ever made on TL...
On August 15 2012 03:13 ACrow wrote: Thank you very much for the translations, good work as usual ...but why oh why, Seeker, did you post those pictures (the ones with the grey large animals)...that thread was one of the worst and dumbest one ever made on TL...
I don't really see how it's dumb, especially now that we're seeing some results. And it's all in good company. Everyone here is watching SC2 after all.
On August 15 2012 03:13 ACrow wrote: Thank you very much for the translations, good work as usual ...but why oh why, Seeker, did you post those pictures (the ones with the grey large animals)...that thread was one of the worst and dumbest one ever made on TL...
Yeah I kind of wish people would stop perpetuating the dumb elephant shit. I just immensely dislike everything that article represents. I realize a BW vs. SC2 rivalry is inevitable, but the elephant in the room business is way too aggressive in that it just shits all over SC2 players, and it's not a healthy way to represent the rivalry IMO.
On August 15 2012 03:13 ACrow wrote: Thank you very much for the translations, good work as usual ...but why oh why, Seeker, did you post those pictures (the ones with the grey large animals)...that thread was one of the worst and dumbest one ever made on TL...
Yeah I kind of wish people would stop perpetuating the dumb elephant shit. I just immensely dislike everything that article represents. I realize a BW vs. SC2 rivalry is inevitable, but the elephant in the room business is way too aggressive in that it just shits all over SC2 players, and it's not a healthy way to represent the rivalry IMO.
On August 15 2012 03:13 ACrow wrote: Thank you very much for the translations, good work as usual ...but why oh why, Seeker, did you post those pictures (the ones with the grey large animals)...that thread was one of the worst and dumbest one ever made on TL...
Yeah I kind of wish people would stop perpetuating the dumb elephant shit. I just immensely dislike everything that article represents. I realize a BW vs. SC2 rivalry is inevitable, but the elephant in the room business is way too aggressive in that it just shits all over SC2 players, and it's not a healthy way to represent the rivalry IMO.
The article was only aggressive when you consider it at the time. Most would agree that the level of play has evolved tremendously since then, therefore nobody would argue that the competition is a farce anymore. In that sense, the point of the article, that people stand by now, is really only that there are a lot of talented and hardworking players who have the potential to do as well and to surpass the best of GSL. You should interprete that as Kespa being that good rather than GSL being bad. From our perspective it is absurd to even suggest something like that MVP is comparable to Flash. We see it like suggesting a national level sprinter is comparable to Usain Bolt. We think that is arrogant. But that is not to say that MVP is not respectable or talented, because everybody thinks he is. What it is, is to suggest that Flash is a genius.
It is beyond me why should we see GSL as being equal with Kespa. Of course if it happens in the next year or two that Kespa fails to become dominant, then sure, but as it is now, there is really no reason for that. You don't have to buy the Elephant thread but to say that the base idea of it was somehow bad just shows that you're new here. And since that seems to be the case, all I can say is, welcome to TL. This place might not be what you thought it was.
I don't think it's a BW vs SC2 rivalry. I was actively cheering for BW players before the hybrid league, for followed BW since Grrrr... days. But with hybrid league / BW dieing, alot BW fans too out their frustration on SC2 fans, who welcomed new fans with open arm and got punched in the stomach.
On August 15 2012 03:13 ACrow wrote: Thank you very much for the translations, good work as usual ...but why oh why, Seeker, did you post those pictures (the ones with the grey large animals)...that thread was one of the worst and dumbest one ever made on TL...
Yeah I kind of wish people would stop perpetuating the dumb elephant shit. I just immensely dislike everything that article represents. I realize a BW vs. SC2 rivalry is inevitable, but the elephant in the room business is way too aggressive in that it just shits all over SC2 players, and it's not a healthy way to represent the rivalry IMO.
Should I remove it?
Up to you, man. You do a lot of great work here, I don't want to tell you what to do. I was just throwing in my 2 cents
On August 15 2012 03:13 ACrow wrote: Thank you very much for the translations, good work as usual ...but why oh why, Seeker, did you post those pictures (the ones with the grey large animals)...that thread was one of the worst and dumbest one ever made on TL...
On August 15 2012 03:13 ACrow wrote: Thank you very much for the translations, good work as usual ...but why oh why, Seeker, did you post those pictures (the ones with the grey large animals)...that thread was one of the worst and dumbest one ever made on TL...
Yeah I kind of wish people would stop perpetuating the dumb elephant shit. I just immensely dislike everything that article represents. I realize a BW vs. SC2 rivalry is inevitable, but the elephant in the room business is way too aggressive in that it just shits all over SC2 players, and it's not a healthy way to represent the rivalry IMO.
The article was only aggressive when you consider it at the time. Most would agree that the level of play has evolved tremendously since then, therefore nobody would argue that the competition is a farce anymore. In that sense, the point of the article, that people stand by now, is really only that there are a lot of talented and hardworking players who have the potential to do as well and to surpass the best of GSL. You should interprete that as Kespa being that good rather than GSL being bad. From our perspective it is absurd to even suggest something like that MVP is comparable to Flash. We see it like suggesting a national level sprinter is comparable to Usain Bolt. We think that is arrogant. But that is not to say that MVP is not respectable or talented, because everybody thinks he is. What it is, is to suggest that Flash is a genius.
It is beyond me why should we see GSL as being equal with Kespa. Of course if it happens in the next year or two that Kespa fails to become dominant, then sure, but as it is now, there is really no reason for that. You don't have to buy the Elephant thread but to say that the base idea of it was somehow bad just shows that you're new here. And since that seems to be the case, all I can say is, welcome to TL. This place might not be what you thought it was.
I have no problem with the nature of the interpretation that Kespa players are good rather than GSL players are being bad - I'm even inclined to agree with it because BW is definitely the harder game mechanically. In regards to comparing MVP to Flash, I don't think any clearheaded person in the SC2 community actually makes that comparison. From what I've seen, anytime someone tried to throw around the b-word, he'd get shot down pretty quickly.
With that said, your point that the Elephant carries a different meaning now as opposed to back when the article was written is noted, but I disagree. Maybe I'm just being overly pedantic, but to me, the meaning hasn't changed: The article was about how bad MC and Nestea were, how average MVP was, and how the SC2 competition has been a farce exactly because of the underwhelming BW achievements of its top players, and the way I see it, the big 3 of SC2 are still those 3 players, so it's still just as insulting. I also want to say that even though SC2 is mechanically less demanding than BW, it's still a different game, and may favor a different skillset, so all these comparisons between different games don't make too much sense to me. I also don't see how my seniority here has anything to do with the validity of my interpretation of the article as bad. Today could be my first day here and I'd still say that the entire basis for the article is shitty, just because SC2 and BW are, again, different games.
I'm not trying to generalize here, and I acknowledge that there are plenty of BW fans who are approaching the SC2 scene in friendly, acceptable ways, and I thank them for that. But from what I've observed on the forums, there are also a good amount of BW fans whose primary agendas are to just constantly talk about how the GSL players are all chobos, to goad SC2 fans on about how their scene is about to get stomped (hell, just look at the post above me about the 5 stages of denial), and so on. I realize that people are bitter that BW is ending, and I sympathize with that - if I had it my way, I would have chosen to keep the BW scene around just because it was a great game with such a rich history, and established players and paradigms, but that sadly wasn't meant to be, and I wish certain people could just get over that without feeling some sort of bitterness toward the SC2 scene and feel the need to constantly instigate. And to tie things back into the elephant imagery, it just invites that sort of annoying behavior.
Heaven forbid we talk about (foreign) WC3 vs BW, but let's go ahead and talk about (Korean) BW vs SC2.
In either case you have the players who carry a history of having played and practiced so much more for their game. Given a certain amount of time, they will inevitably become skilled players in the current proscene.
YES WE GET IT!!!. I usually stay out of these discussions, but having to read every other post... "He, you, SCII guy, you know your game and the players are inferior, right, right... just saying". BW has a 10+ year head start, BW has the better infrastructure, BW has legendary players ..... YES I HEARD YOU AND YOUR BW BUDDIES THE FIRST 1000+ times. It's not the we don't get it... It's just that it is getting fucking annoying. Bring something interesting to the table.
On August 15 2012 03:13 ACrow wrote: Thank you very much for the translations, good work as usual ...but why oh why, Seeker, did you post those pictures (the ones with the grey large animals)...that thread was one of the worst and dumbest one ever made on TL...
Yeah I kind of wish people would stop perpetuating the dumb elephant shit. I just immensely dislike everything that article represents. I realize a BW vs. SC2 rivalry is inevitable, but the elephant in the room business is way too aggressive in that it just shits all over SC2 players, and it's not a healthy way to represent the rivalry IMO.
Should I remove it?
Nah you decide (you're the boss), no big deal, it just brings back bad memories to me That being sad, I just got done watching the first match of the night, that ZvT was very nice to watch with lots of solid micro, Jaedong played impressive today.
On August 15 2012 03:13 ACrow wrote: Thank you very much for the translations, good work as usual ...but why oh why, Seeker, did you post those pictures (the ones with the grey large animals)...that thread was one of the worst and dumbest one ever made on TL...
Yeah I kind of wish people would stop perpetuating the dumb elephant shit. I just immensely dislike everything that article represents. I realize a BW vs. SC2 rivalry is inevitable, but the elephant in the room business is way too aggressive in that it just shits all over SC2 players, and it's not a healthy way to represent the rivalry IMO.
Should I remove it?
Nah you decide (you're the boss), no big deal, it just brings back bad memories to me That being sad, I just got done watching the first match of the night, that ZvT was very nice to watch with lots of solid micro, Jaedong played impressive today.
I am a mere servant of the almighty poll
Poll: Remove the Elephant/Rhino pictures?
No (65)
64%
Yes (32)
31%
Yes but only rhino (5)
5%
Yes but only elephant (0)
0%
102 total votes
Your vote: Remove the Elephant/Rhino pictures?
(Vote): Yes (Vote): No (Vote): Yes but only elephant (Vote): Yes but only rhino
On August 15 2012 03:13 ACrow wrote: Thank you very much for the translations, good work as usual ...but why oh why, Seeker, did you post those pictures (the ones with the grey large animals)...that thread was one of the worst and dumbest one ever made on TL...
Yeah I kind of wish people would stop perpetuating the dumb elephant shit. I just immensely dislike everything that article represents. I realize a BW vs. SC2 rivalry is inevitable, but the elephant in the room business is way too aggressive in that it just shits all over SC2 players, and it's not a healthy way to represent the rivalry IMO.
The article was only aggressive when you consider it at the time. Most would agree that the level of play has evolved tremendously since then, therefore nobody would argue that the competition is a farce anymore. In that sense, the point of the article, that people stand by now, is really only that there are a lot of talented and hardworking players who have the potential to do as well and to surpass the best of GSL. You should interprete that as Kespa being that good rather than GSL being bad. From our perspective it is absurd to even suggest something like that MVP is comparable to Flash. We see it like suggesting a national level sprinter is comparable to Usain Bolt. We think that is arrogant. But that is not to say that MVP is not respectable or talented, because everybody thinks he is. What it is, is to suggest that Flash is a genius.
It is beyond me why should we see GSL as being equal with Kespa. Of course if it happens in the next year or two that Kespa fails to become dominant, then sure, but as it is now, there is really no reason for that. You don't have to buy the Elephant thread but to say that the base idea of it was somehow bad just shows that you're new here. And since that seems to be the case, all I can say is, welcome to TL. This place might not be what you thought it was.
I have no problem with the nature of the interpretation that Kespa players are good rather than GSL players are being bad - I'm even inclined to agree with it because BW is definitely the harder game mechanically. In regards to comparing MVP to Flash, I don't think any clearheaded person in the SC2 community actually makes that comparison. From what I've seen, anytime someone tried to throw around the b-word, he'd get shot down pretty quickly.
With that said, your point that the Elephant carries a different meaning now as opposed to back when the article was written is noted, but I disagree. Maybe I'm just being overly pedantic, but to me, the meaning hasn't changed: The article was about how bad MC and Nestea were, how average MVP was, and how the SC2 competition has been a farce exactly because of the underwhelming BW achievements of its top players, and the way I see it, the big 3 of SC2 are still those 3 players, so it's still just as insulting. I also want to say that even though SC2 is mechanically less demanding than BW, it's still a different game, and may favor a different skillset, so all these comparisons between different games don't make too much sense to me. I also don't see how my seniority here has anything to do with the validity of my interpretation of the article as bad. Today could be my first day here and I'd still say that the entire basis for the article is shitty, just because SC2 and BW are, again, different games.
But that's what I'm trying to point out here, the reason why the article was so negative, is because at the time the level of play really was quite bad. That is why it was thought that Flash could potentially be the best in a month. You have to take the article in its context.
Nobody thought the competition was a farce because MC and Nestea were bad in BW. The play was bad and the best players were not playing the game. That is why the competition was a farce. That is why if the article would be written now, it would not be as negative in tone, but the point would be the same. That there are players better than MVP out there and that because the very best are not playing, it is something like world cup hockey without the NHL stars.
Your seniority has to do with questioning the (some sort of) moral aspect of the article. The article represents the the mentality of TL quite well. It is almost like asking TL not to be TL.
On August 15 2012 03:13 ACrow wrote: Thank you very much for the translations, good work as usual ...but why oh why, Seeker, did you post those pictures (the ones with the grey large animals)...that thread was one of the worst and dumbest one ever made on TL...
Yeah I kind of wish people would stop perpetuating the dumb elephant shit. I just immensely dislike everything that article represents. I realize a BW vs. SC2 rivalry is inevitable, but the elephant in the room business is way too aggressive in that it just shits all over SC2 players, and it's not a healthy way to represent the rivalry IMO.
Should I remove it?
I personnaly find the whole elephant story and the people butthurt about it to be rather funny
On August 15 2012 03:13 ACrow wrote: Thank you very much for the translations, good work as usual ...but why oh why, Seeker, did you post those pictures (the ones with the grey large animals)...that thread was one of the worst and dumbest one ever made on TL...
Yeah I kind of wish people would stop perpetuating the dumb elephant shit. I just immensely dislike everything that article represents. I realize a BW vs. SC2 rivalry is inevitable, but the elephant in the room business is way too aggressive in that it just shits all over SC2 players, and it's not a healthy way to represent the rivalry IMO.
The article was only aggressive when you consider it at the time. Most would agree that the level of play has evolved tremendously since then, therefore nobody would argue that the competition is a farce anymore. In that sense, the point of the article, that people stand by now, is really only that there are a lot of talented and hardworking players who have the potential to do as well and to surpass the best of GSL. You should interprete that as Kespa being that good rather than GSL being bad. From our perspective it is absurd to even suggest something like that MVP is comparable to Flash. We see it like suggesting a national level sprinter is comparable to Usain Bolt. We think that is arrogant. But that is not to say that MVP is not respectable or talented, because everybody thinks he is. What it is, is to suggest that Flash is a genius.
It is beyond me why should we see GSL as being equal with Kespa. Of course if it happens in the next year or two that Kespa fails to become dominant, then sure, but as it is now, there is really no reason for that. You don't have to buy the Elephant thread but to say that the base idea of it was somehow bad just shows that you're new here. And since that seems to be the case, all I can say is, welcome to TL. This place might not be what you thought it was.
I have no problem with the nature of the interpretation that Kespa players are good rather than GSL players are being bad - I'm even inclined to agree with it because BW is definitely the harder game mechanically. In regards to comparing MVP to Flash, I don't think any clearheaded person in the SC2 community actually makes that comparison. From what I've seen, anytime someone tried to throw around the b-word, he'd get shot down pretty quickly.
With that said, your point that the Elephant carries a different meaning now as opposed to back when the article was written is noted, but I disagree. Maybe I'm just being overly pedantic, but to me, the meaning hasn't changed: The article was about how bad MC and Nestea were, how average MVP was, and how the SC2 competition has been a farce exactly because of the underwhelming BW achievements of its top players, and the way I see it, the big 3 of SC2 are still those 3 players, so it's still just as insulting. I also want to say that even though SC2 is mechanically less demanding than BW, it's still a different game, and may favor a different skillset, so all these comparisons between different games don't make too much sense to me. I also don't see how my seniority here has anything to do with the validity of my interpretation of the article as bad. Today could be my first day here and I'd still say that the entire basis for the article is shitty, just because SC2 and BW are, again, different games.
But that's what I'm trying to point out here, the reason why the article was so negative, is because at the time the level of play really was quite bad. That is why it was thought that Flash could potentially be the best in a month. You have to take the article in its context.
Nobody thought the competition was a farce because MC and Nestea were bad in BW. The play was bad and the best players were not playing the game. That is why the competition was a farce. That is why if the article would be written now, it would not be as negative in tone, but the point would be the same. That there are players better than MVP out there and that because the very best are not playing, it is something like world cup hockey without the NHL stars.
Your seniority has to do with questioning the (some sort of) moral aspect of the article. The article represents the the mentality of TL quite well. It is almost like asking TL not to be TL.
Well, morality is relative in this case. Maybe TL being TL would be morally wrong in certain cases from my own perspective. All I'm saying is that you can't tell me that my opinion of the article is incorrect in any absolute sense.
Anyways, you're still saying the same things that I'm rejecting on the basis of the argument that BW and SC2 are different games. Flash is a BW god, but who knows how he'll do in SC2 (though I'd certainly expect him to do amazingly at SC2 due to his work ethic and strategic prowess, you cannot say with 100% certainty that Flash will dominate SC2 like he did BW). You're treating SC2 as if BW success will perfectly correlate with SC2 success, which it hasn't so far. And also, the level of play might have been bad, but that's also due to how SC2 was much younger than it is now, and thus far less figured out. Once people actually figure out all the strategies and just understand the game better, the level of play naturally looks much higher, and that just takes time and experimentation, not only skill.
On August 15 2012 00:29 YMCApylons wrote: Just caught up with the games...
Effort vs. DRG game 3 is a must watch. That ling/bling micro was completely incredible. I knew Effort could do it, it was basically scourge/muta micro, but the fact that DRG could match him for 5~8 minutes of non-stop micro was impressive. I know DRG is supposed to be in a slump, but that was the best bit of ZvZ micro I've seen from DRG in a long time. DRG just chose the wrong fight.
Yugioh...WTF man. That game three Fantasy GG timing.
How did you catch up with the games? I couldn't find vods
For the record, I still think the elephant stuff is fun and hilarious. Rivalry makes for great stories (and horrible LR threads, but what ya gonna do :D)
On August 15 2012 03:13 ACrow wrote: Thank you very much for the translations, good work as usual ...but why oh why, Seeker, did you post those pictures (the ones with the grey large animals)...that thread was one of the worst and dumbest one ever made on TL...
Yeah I kind of wish people would stop perpetuating the dumb elephant shit. I just immensely dislike everything that article represents. I realize a BW vs. SC2 rivalry is inevitable, but the elephant in the room business is way too aggressive in that it just shits all over SC2 players, and it's not a healthy way to represent the rivalry IMO.
Should I remove it?
I personnaly find the whole elephant story and the people butthurt about it to be rather funny
This. The elephant article was probably one of the all-time low points of the TL writing staff, but the butthurt surrounding it is just as silly. Just root for your fav players people (fuck yeah effort!)
On August 15 2012 05:02 mikedebo wrote: For the record, I still think the elephant stuff is fun and hilarious. Rivalry makes for great stories (and horrible LR threads, but what ya gonna do :D)
On August 15 2012 03:13 ACrow wrote: Thank you very much for the translations, good work as usual ...but why oh why, Seeker, did you post those pictures (the ones with the grey large animals)...that thread was one of the worst and dumbest one ever made on TL...
Yeah I kind of wish people would stop perpetuating the dumb elephant shit. I just immensely dislike everything that article represents. I realize a BW vs. SC2 rivalry is inevitable, but the elephant in the room business is way too aggressive in that it just shits all over SC2 players, and it's not a healthy way to represent the rivalry IMO.
Should I remove it?
I personnaly find the whole elephant story and the people butthurt about it to be rather funny
This. The elephant article was probably one of the all-time low points of the TL writing staff, but the butthurt surrounding it is just as silly. Just root for your fav players people (fuck yeah effort!)
There wouldn't be any butthurt surrounding it if people didn't keep bringing it up as if it held any weight.
On August 15 2012 03:13 ACrow wrote: Thank you very much for the translations, good work as usual ...but why oh why, Seeker, did you post those pictures (the ones with the grey large animals)...that thread was one of the worst and dumbest one ever made on TL...
Yeah I kind of wish people would stop perpetuating the dumb elephant shit. I just immensely dislike everything that article represents. I realize a BW vs. SC2 rivalry is inevitable, but the elephant in the room business is way too aggressive in that it just shits all over SC2 players, and it's not a healthy way to represent the rivalry IMO.
The article was only aggressive when you consider it at the time. Most would agree that the level of play has evolved tremendously since then, therefore nobody would argue that the competition is a farce anymore. In that sense, the point of the article, that people stand by now, is really only that there are a lot of talented and hardworking players who have the potential to do as well and to surpass the best of GSL. You should interprete that as Kespa being that good rather than GSL being bad. From our perspective it is absurd to even suggest something like that MVP is comparable to Flash. We see it like suggesting a national level sprinter is comparable to Usain Bolt. We think that is arrogant. But that is not to say that MVP is not respectable or talented, because everybody thinks he is. What it is, is to suggest that Flash is a genius.
It is beyond me why should we see GSL as being equal with Kespa. Of course if it happens in the next year or two that Kespa fails to become dominant, then sure, but as it is now, there is really no reason for that. You don't have to buy the Elephant thread but to say that the base idea of it was somehow bad just shows that you're new here. And since that seems to be the case, all I can say is, welcome to TL. This place might not be what you thought it was.
I have no problem with the nature of the interpretation that Kespa players are good rather than GSL players are being bad - I'm even inclined to agree with it because BW is definitely the harder game mechanically. In regards to comparing MVP to Flash, I don't think any clearheaded person in the SC2 community actually makes that comparison. From what I've seen, anytime someone tried to throw around the b-word, he'd get shot down pretty quickly.
With that said, your point that the Elephant carries a different meaning now as opposed to back when the article was written is noted, but I disagree. Maybe I'm just being overly pedantic, but to me, the meaning hasn't changed: The article was about how bad MC and Nestea were, how average MVP was, and how the SC2 competition has been a farce exactly because of the underwhelming BW achievements of its top players, and the way I see it, the big 3 of SC2 are still those 3 players, so it's still just as insulting. I also want to say that even though SC2 is mechanically less demanding than BW, it's still a different game, and may favor a different skillset, so all these comparisons between different games don't make too much sense to me. I also don't see how my seniority here has anything to do with the validity of my interpretation of the article as bad. Today could be my first day here and I'd still say that the entire basis for the article is shitty, just because SC2 and BW are, again, different games.
But that's what I'm trying to point out here, the reason why the article was so negative, is because at the time the level of play really was quite bad. That is why it was thought that Flash could potentially be the best in a month. You have to take the article in its context.
Nobody thought the competition was a farce because MC and Nestea were bad in BW. The play was bad and the best players were not playing the game. That is why the competition was a farce. That is why if the article would be written now, it would not be as negative in tone, but the point would be the same. That there are players better than MVP out there and that because the very best are not playing, it is something like world cup hockey without the NHL stars.
Your seniority has to do with questioning the (some sort of) moral aspect of the article. The article represents the the mentality of TL quite well. It is almost like asking TL not to be TL.
Well, morality is relative in this case. Maybe TL being TL would be morally wrong in certain cases from my perspective.
Anyways, you're still saying the same things that I'm rejecting on the basis of the argument that BW and SC2 are different games. Flash is a BW god, but who knows how he'll do in SC2 (though I'd certainly expect him to do amazingly at SC2 due to his work ethic and strategic prowess, you cannot say with 100% certainty that Flash will dominate SC2 like he did BW). You're treating SC2 as if BW success will perfectly correlate with SC2 success, which it hasn't so far. And also, the level of play might have been bad, but that's also due to how SC2 was much younger than it is now, and thus far less figured out. Once people actually figure out all the strategies and just understand the game better, the level of play naturally looks much higher, and that just takes time and experimentation, not only skill.
I am not discussing whether the elephant is true or not here or why the level of play was bad. I am discussing what is the elephant and in what context was it written. The truth value of the elephant remains to be see. That I hope will clarify some of the misunderstandings a lot of people have about it. Of course even if I were to succesfully convince you, there persists a horde that will not listen to reason.
I should add that the elephant article did not deal in absolutes such as 100% certainty and perfect correlation. It is well within its scope to allow some room for error but not too much.
On August 15 2012 03:13 ACrow wrote: Thank you very much for the translations, good work as usual ...but why oh why, Seeker, did you post those pictures (the ones with the grey large animals)...that thread was one of the worst and dumbest one ever made on TL...
Yeah I kind of wish people would stop perpetuating the dumb elephant shit. I just immensely dislike everything that article represents. I realize a BW vs. SC2 rivalry is inevitable, but the elephant in the room business is way too aggressive in that it just shits all over SC2 players, and it's not a healthy way to represent the rivalry IMO.
Should I remove it?
I personnaly find the whole elephant story and the people butthurt about it to be rather funny
This. The elephant article was probably one of the all-time low points of the TL writing staff, but the butthurt surrounding it is just as silly. Just root for your fav players people (fuck yeah effort!)
There wouldn't be any butthurt surrounding it if people didn't keep bringing it up as if it held any weight.
Conversely, people wouldnt keep bringing it up if there wasn't so much butthurt either. Such is life. :p
I want the Kespa players to keep playing BW....but I also want them to get better at sc2 for more victories like this..:[ gahh. Anyways, I'm really happy I stayed up to watch these games
On August 15 2012 03:13 ACrow wrote: Thank you very much for the translations, good work as usual ...but why oh why, Seeker, did you post those pictures (the ones with the grey large animals)...that thread was one of the worst and dumbest one ever made on TL...
Yeah I kind of wish people would stop perpetuating the dumb elephant shit. I just immensely dislike everything that article represents. I realize a BW vs. SC2 rivalry is inevitable, but the elephant in the room business is way too aggressive in that it just shits all over SC2 players, and it's not a healthy way to represent the rivalry IMO.
Should I remove it?
I personnaly find the whole elephant story and the people butthurt about it to be rather funny
This. The elephant article was probably one of the all-time low points of the TL writing staff, but the butthurt surrounding it is just as silly. Just root for your fav players people (fuck yeah effort!)
There wouldn't be any "butthurt" about it if it weren't for so many BW elitists acting like jackasses and mentioning it every time a BW player happens to win, and then quickly denouncing any BW player as ever being good the moment they lose. But really this shouldn't be the thread to start this in.
On August 15 2012 00:24 ZeromuS wrote: Effort played so well.
Muta/Scourge definitely gave him the mechanical edge in that game with ling bling. Next Zerg to play against him definitely needs to learn how to transition to some sort of roach play a little quicker to help make the ling/bling war go shorter.
If you draw that fight out against a BW zerg, it won't go well for you.
Effort played so well is understatement of the year, he played one of the best televised ling bane in history of sc2
On August 15 2012 00:24 ZeromuS wrote: Effort played so well.
Muta/Scourge definitely gave him the mechanical edge in that game with ling bling. Next Zerg to play against him definitely needs to learn how to transition to some sort of roach play a little quicker to help make the ling/bling war go shorter.
If you draw that fight out against a BW zerg, it won't go well for you.
Effort played so well is understatement of the year, he played one of the best televised ling bane in history of sc2
Oh god -_- Overstatement of the year here
Can you name a better ling bane game then? That would be productive!
On August 15 2012 03:13 ACrow wrote: Thank you very much for the translations, good work as usual ...but why oh why, Seeker, did you post those pictures (the ones with the grey large animals)...that thread was one of the worst and dumbest one ever made on TL...
Yeah I kind of wish people would stop perpetuating the dumb elephant shit. I just immensely dislike everything that article represents. I realize a BW vs. SC2 rivalry is inevitable, but the elephant in the room business is way too aggressive in that it just shits all over SC2 players, and it's not a healthy way to represent the rivalry IMO.
Should I remove it?
I personnaly find the whole elephant story and the people butthurt about it to be rather funny
This. The elephant article was probably one of the all-time low points of the TL writing staff, but the butthurt surrounding it is just as silly. Just root for your fav players people (fuck yeah effort!)
There wouldn't be any butthurt surrounding it if people didn't keep bringing it up as if it held any weight.
Conversely, people wouldnt keep bringing it up if there wasn't so much butthurt either. Such is life. :p
So the primary motivation for bringing it up is to troll and annoy people, right? Rather than being for any semblance of a productive reason >_>
On August 15 2012 03:13 ACrow wrote: Thank you very much for the translations, good work as usual ...but why oh why, Seeker, did you post those pictures (the ones with the grey large animals)...that thread was one of the worst and dumbest one ever made on TL...
Yeah I kind of wish people would stop perpetuating the dumb elephant shit. I just immensely dislike everything that article represents. I realize a BW vs. SC2 rivalry is inevitable, but the elephant in the room business is way too aggressive in that it just shits all over SC2 players, and it's not a healthy way to represent the rivalry IMO.
Should I remove it?
I personnaly find the whole elephant story and the people butthurt about it to be rather funny
This. The elephant article was probably one of the all-time low points of the TL writing staff, but the butthurt surrounding it is just as silly. Just root for your fav players people (fuck yeah effort!)
There wouldn't be any butthurt surrounding it if people didn't keep bringing it up as if it held any weight.
Conversely, people wouldnt keep bringing it up if there wasn't so much butthurt either. Such is life. :p
So the primary motivation for bringing it up is to troll and annoy people, right? Rather than being for any semblance of a productive reason >_>
Dude, you take this stuff way too seriously. Besides, this rivalry between GSL and KESPA players is probably the best thing that happened in Korea for the SC2 scene.
On August 15 2012 03:13 ACrow wrote: Thank you very much for the translations, good work as usual ...but why oh why, Seeker, did you post those pictures (the ones with the grey large animals)...that thread was one of the worst and dumbest one ever made on TL...
Yeah I kind of wish people would stop perpetuating the dumb elephant shit. I just immensely dislike everything that article represents. I realize a BW vs. SC2 rivalry is inevitable, but the elephant in the room business is way too aggressive in that it just shits all over SC2 players, and it's not a healthy way to represent the rivalry IMO.
Should I remove it?
I personnaly find the whole elephant story and the people butthurt about it to be rather funny
This. The elephant article was probably one of the all-time low points of the TL writing staff, but the butthurt surrounding it is just as silly. Just root for your fav players people (fuck yeah effort!)
There wouldn't be any butthurt surrounding it if people didn't keep bringing it up as if it held any weight.
Conversely, people wouldnt keep bringing it up if there wasn't so much butthurt either. Such is life. :p
So the primary motivation for bringing it up is to troll and annoy people, right? Rather than being for any semblance of a productive reason >_>
Dude, you take this stuff way too seriously. Besides, this rivalry between GSL and KESPA players is probably the best thing that happened in Korea for the SC2 scene.
I'm all for a good, healthy rivalry. What I'm not for is a rivalry in which one side just repeatedly brings up how shitty and outclassed the other side is/will be.
On August 15 2012 03:13 ACrow wrote: Thank you very much for the translations, good work as usual ...but why oh why, Seeker, did you post those pictures (the ones with the grey large animals)...that thread was one of the worst and dumbest one ever made on TL...
Yeah I kind of wish people would stop perpetuating the dumb elephant shit. I just immensely dislike everything that article represents. I realize a BW vs. SC2 rivalry is inevitable, but the elephant in the room business is way too aggressive in that it just shits all over SC2 players, and it's not a healthy way to represent the rivalry IMO.
Should I remove it?
I personnaly find the whole elephant story and the people butthurt about it to be rather funny
This. The elephant article was probably one of the all-time low points of the TL writing staff, but the butthurt surrounding it is just as silly. Just root for your fav players people (fuck yeah effort!)
There wouldn't be any butthurt surrounding it if people didn't keep bringing it up as if it held any weight.
Conversely, people wouldnt keep bringing it up if there wasn't so much butthurt either. Such is life. :p
So the primary motivation for bringing it up is to troll and annoy people, right? Rather than being for any semblance of a productive reason >_>
Dude, you take this stuff way too seriously. Besides, this rivalry between GSL and KESPA players is probably the best thing that happened in Korea for the SC2 scene.
I'm all for a good, healthy rivalry. What I'm not for is a rivalry in which one side just repeatedly brings up how shitty and outclassed the other side is/will be.
this, and the main thing I'm against is the blatant mod bias that's been happening ever since the elephent thread. Where bans/warning are very liberally handed out for anyone bashing on Bw or defending SC2, while the people bashing SC2 almost never get banned and very rarely even warned. But again sorry for the off topic. Really glad to see JD going through, he's probably the one kespa player I really actually wanna see dominate.
Yeah I kind of wish people would stop perpetuating the dumb elephant shit. I just immensely dislike everything that article represents. I realize a BW vs. SC2 rivalry is inevitable, but the elephant in the room business is way too aggressive in that it just shits all over SC2 players, and it's not a healthy way to represent the rivalry IMO.
Should I remove it?
I personnaly find the whole elephant story and the people butthurt about it to be rather funny
This. The elephant article was probably one of the all-time low points of the TL writing staff, but the butthurt surrounding it is just as silly. Just root for your fav players people (fuck yeah effort!)
There wouldn't be any butthurt surrounding it if people didn't keep bringing it up as if it held any weight.
Conversely, people wouldnt keep bringing it up if there wasn't so much butthurt either. Such is life. :p
So the primary motivation for bringing it up is to troll and annoy people, right? Rather than being for any semblance of a productive reason >_>
Dude, you take this stuff way too seriously. Besides, this rivalry between GSL and KESPA players is probably the best thing that happened in Korea for the SC2 scene.
I'm all for a good, healthy rivalry. What I'm not for is a rivalry in which one side just repeatedly brings up how shitty and outclassed the other side is/will be.
this, and the main thing I'm against is the blatant mod bias that's been happening ever since the elephent thread. Where bans/warning are very liberally handed out for anyone bashing on Bw or defending SC2, while the people bashing SC2 almost never get banned and very rarely even warned. But again sorry for the off topic. Really glad to see JD going through, he's probably the one kespa player I really actually wanna see dominate.
mods here came from sc1. obviously shouldn't be biased at all but think about how they feel towards bw bashing especially.
On August 15 2012 03:44 SeeKeR wrote: [quote] Should I remove it?
I personnaly find the whole elephant story and the people butthurt about it to be rather funny
This. The elephant article was probably one of the all-time low points of the TL writing staff, but the butthurt surrounding it is just as silly. Just root for your fav players people (fuck yeah effort!)
There wouldn't be any butthurt surrounding it if people didn't keep bringing it up as if it held any weight.
Conversely, people wouldnt keep bringing it up if there wasn't so much butthurt either. Such is life. :p
So the primary motivation for bringing it up is to troll and annoy people, right? Rather than being for any semblance of a productive reason >_>
Dude, you take this stuff way too seriously. Besides, this rivalry between GSL and KESPA players is probably the best thing that happened in Korea for the SC2 scene.
I'm all for a good, healthy rivalry. What I'm not for is a rivalry in which one side just repeatedly brings up how shitty and outclassed the other side is/will be.
this, and the main thing I'm against is the blatant mod bias that's been happening ever since the elephent thread. Where bans/warning are very liberally handed out for anyone bashing on Bw or defending SC2, while the people bashing SC2 almost never get banned and very rarely even warned. But again sorry for the off topic. Really glad to see JD going through, he's probably the one kespa player I really actually wanna see dominate.
mods here came from sc1. obviously shouldn't be biased at all but think about how they feel towards bw bashing especially.
I understand how they feel, and I agree BW should be given the respect it deserves. Even though I didn't even know there was such a thing as esports or pro gaming till SC2 beta, I've played SC1 since before BW, I remember being in middle school and saving up allowance money to buy BW the day it came out, it was a great game and a part of many peoples childhoods. But it's still very unprofessional of the mods to have the blatant bias that they do, and I really hope it's something that gets fixed.
On August 15 2012 03:13 ACrow wrote: Thank you very much for the translations, good work as usual ...but why oh why, Seeker, did you post those pictures (the ones with the grey large animals)...that thread was one of the worst and dumbest one ever made on TL...
Yeah I kind of wish people would stop perpetuating the dumb elephant shit. I just immensely dislike everything that article represents. I realize a BW vs. SC2 rivalry is inevitable, but the elephant in the room business is way too aggressive in that it just shits all over SC2 players, and it's not a healthy way to represent the rivalry IMO.
Should I remove it?
I personnaly find the whole elephant story and the people butthurt about it to be rather funny
This. The elephant article was probably one of the all-time low points of the TL writing staff, but the butthurt surrounding it is just as silly. Just root for your fav players people (fuck yeah effort!)
There wouldn't be any butthurt surrounding it if people didn't keep bringing it up as if it held any weight.
Conversely, people wouldnt keep bringing it up if there wasn't so much butthurt either. Such is life. :p
So the primary motivation for bringing it up is to troll and annoy people, right? Rather than being for any semblance of a productive reason >_>
Dude, you take this stuff way too seriously. Besides, this rivalry between GSL and KESPA players is probably the best thing that happened in Korea for the SC2 scene.
I'm all for a good, healthy rivalry. What I'm not for is a rivalry in which one side just repeatedly brings up how shitty and outclassed the other side is/will be.
What is a healthy rivalry? It seems to me there are legitimate reasons for people to believe that GSL will be outclassed. Whether they will be or will not be remains to be seen. The point is, as I said, there are reasons to believe so, and I see nothing unhealthy about it. You may not like it but that does not mean it is unhealthy. In fact I still don't know what it means for rivalry to be unhealthy.
On August 15 2012 03:13 ACrow wrote: Thank you very much for the translations, good work as usual ...but why oh why, Seeker, did you post those pictures (the ones with the grey large animals)...that thread was one of the worst and dumbest one ever made on TL...
Yeah I kind of wish people would stop perpetuating the dumb elephant shit. I just immensely dislike everything that article represents. I realize a BW vs. SC2 rivalry is inevitable, but the elephant in the room business is way too aggressive in that it just shits all over SC2 players, and it's not a healthy way to represent the rivalry IMO.
Should I remove it?
I personnaly find the whole elephant story and the people butthurt about it to be rather funny
This. The elephant article was probably one of the all-time low points of the TL writing staff, but the butthurt surrounding it is just as silly. Just root for your fav players people (fuck yeah effort!)
There wouldn't be any butthurt surrounding it if people didn't keep bringing it up as if it held any weight.
Conversely, people wouldnt keep bringing it up if there wasn't so much butthurt either. Such is life. :p
So the primary motivation for bringing it up is to troll and annoy people, right? Rather than being for any semblance of a productive reason >_>
Dude, you take this stuff way too seriously. Besides, this rivalry between GSL and KESPA players is probably the best thing that happened in Korea for the SC2 scene.
I'm all for a good, healthy rivalry. What I'm not for is a rivalry in which one side just repeatedly brings up how shitty and outclassed the other side is/will be.
I think Elephant represents well the twisted community we have here. Its transitional period, if you want to avoid elephant whether it is icon or animal simply don't talk/think about it. It will be all gone sooner or later. When people see Jaedong for a hundreth time they will familarize with him. So with other Kespa players, and soon "them" will be "ours" (for sc2 people).
Ah, and Kespa and GSL is not "healthy rivalry" if you think so dont fool yourself. There is not only EGO on the line (which kinda can be represented with Elephant). Basically what i want to say, depending on how well Kespa players transition there may be drastic changes to how SC2 will look in 1-2 years. Including retirements, team disbanding, tournament changes, koreans exsposure to west etc etc.
On August 15 2012 05:50 bgx wrote: I think Elephant represents well the twisted community we have here. Its transitional period, if you want to avoid elephant whether it is icon or animal simply don't talk/think about it. It will be all gone sooner or later. When people see Jaedong for a hundreth time they will familarize with him. So with other Kespa players, and soon "them" will be "ours" (for sc2 people).
But elephant puns are so much fun! :o
I honestly enjoy this rivalry a lot, it adds a lot of spice to these recent Korean tournaments. And the KeSPA players are only going to improve in the next 3-6 months.
On August 15 2012 05:50 bgx wrote: I think Elephant represents well the twisted community we have here. Its transitional period, if you want to avoid elephant whether it is icon or animal simply don't talk/think about it. It will be all gone sooner or later. When people see Jaedong for a hundreth time they will familarize with him. So with other Kespa players, and soon "them" will be "ours" (for sc2 people).
But elephant puns are so much fun! :o
I honestly enjoy this rivalry a lot, it adds a lot of spice to these recent Korean tournaments. And the KeSPA players are only going to improve in the next 3-6 months.
Of course each group wants to hold elephant for themselves as a weapon
Majority didnt really say anything bad when Kespas were falling and elephant was oh so clever joke. However now when it can be a double edged sword its not so obvious to let it go, because in the end Elephant idea is only being materialized when Kespa player wins over GSL player so it is kind of remembering everyone about article.
I like the rivalry too, when its in good mood, and it DOES NOT matter whether elephant funny picture comes up (read: funny) or simply words or sentences. Its all tools of communication. You can aswell spam elephant pictures or say "U FAG" and use it as harm.
I personnaly find the whole elephant story and the people butthurt about it to be rather funny
This. The elephant article was probably one of the all-time low points of the TL writing staff, but the butthurt surrounding it is just as silly. Just root for your fav players people (fuck yeah effort!)
There wouldn't be any butthurt surrounding it if people didn't keep bringing it up as if it held any weight.
Conversely, people wouldnt keep bringing it up if there wasn't so much butthurt either. Such is life. :p
So the primary motivation for bringing it up is to troll and annoy people, right? Rather than being for any semblance of a productive reason >_>
Dude, you take this stuff way too seriously. Besides, this rivalry between GSL and KESPA players is probably the best thing that happened in Korea for the SC2 scene.
I'm all for a good, healthy rivalry. What I'm not for is a rivalry in which one side just repeatedly brings up how shitty and outclassed the other side is/will be.
this, and the main thing I'm against is the blatant mod bias that's been happening ever since the elephent thread. Where bans/warning are very liberally handed out for anyone bashing on Bw or defending SC2, while the people bashing SC2 almost never get banned and very rarely even warned. But again sorry for the off topic. Really glad to see JD going through, he's probably the one kespa player I really actually wanna see dominate.
mods here came from sc1. obviously shouldn't be biased at all but think about how they feel towards bw bashing especially.
I understand how they feel, and I agree BW should be given the respect it deserves. Even though I didn't even know there was such a thing as esports or pro gaming till SC2 beta, I've played SC1 since before BW, I remember being in middle school and saving up allowance money to buy BW the day it came out, it was a great game and a part of many peoples childhoods. But it's still very unprofessional of the mods to have the blatant bias that they do, and I really hope it's something that gets fixed.
What I've come to notice is that the mods do, in fact, do a good job. Often times when someone feels they've been dealt injustice, it is really that they are looking at it through tinted glasses. Sometimes the person you think was bashing SC2 was not in fact bashing SC2 at all. When it comes to TL, some bias towards BW is only good. People who were not there to experience BW throughout the years should also remain silent if they don't have anything good to say. BW should always, and I think it always will, have a special place on TL.
This. The elephant article was probably one of the all-time low points of the TL writing staff, but the butthurt surrounding it is just as silly. Just root for your fav players people (fuck yeah effort!)
There wouldn't be any butthurt surrounding it if people didn't keep bringing it up as if it held any weight.
Conversely, people wouldnt keep bringing it up if there wasn't so much butthurt either. Such is life. :p
So the primary motivation for bringing it up is to troll and annoy people, right? Rather than being for any semblance of a productive reason >_>
Dude, you take this stuff way too seriously. Besides, this rivalry between GSL and KESPA players is probably the best thing that happened in Korea for the SC2 scene.
I'm all for a good, healthy rivalry. What I'm not for is a rivalry in which one side just repeatedly brings up how shitty and outclassed the other side is/will be.
this, and the main thing I'm against is the blatant mod bias that's been happening ever since the elephent thread. Where bans/warning are very liberally handed out for anyone bashing on Bw or defending SC2, while the people bashing SC2 almost never get banned and very rarely even warned. But again sorry for the off topic. Really glad to see JD going through, he's probably the one kespa player I really actually wanna see dominate.
mods here came from sc1. obviously shouldn't be biased at all but think about how they feel towards bw bashing especially.
I understand how they feel, and I agree BW should be given the respect it deserves. Even though I didn't even know there was such a thing as esports or pro gaming till SC2 beta, I've played SC1 since before BW, I remember being in middle school and saving up allowance money to buy BW the day it came out, it was a great game and a part of many peoples childhoods. But it's still very unprofessional of the mods to have the blatant bias that they do, and I really hope it's something that gets fixed.
What I've come to notice is that the mods do, in fact, do a good job. Often times when someone feels they've been dealt injustice, it is really that they are looking at it through tinted glasses. Sometimes the person you think was bashing SC2 was not in fact bashing SC2 at all. When it comes to TL, some bias towards BW is only good. People who were not there to experience BW throughout the years should also remain silent if they don't have anything good to say. BW should always, and I think it always will, have a special place on TL.
But that's exactly what bias is. Telling people who weren't around during BW "well you shouldn't talk." That's the exact problem, and you don't seem to comprehend it. And now if you look there are far more people bashing SC2 as there are bashing BW, yet far more people defending SC2 that get bans/warnings for doing so. That IS bias. Often times when someone feels that something they are involved in (as you are on the BW side of arguments) are fair, they are looking at it through tinted glasses.
There wouldn't be any butthurt surrounding it if people didn't keep bringing it up as if it held any weight.
Conversely, people wouldnt keep bringing it up if there wasn't so much butthurt either. Such is life. :p
So the primary motivation for bringing it up is to troll and annoy people, right? Rather than being for any semblance of a productive reason >_>
Dude, you take this stuff way too seriously. Besides, this rivalry between GSL and KESPA players is probably the best thing that happened in Korea for the SC2 scene.
I'm all for a good, healthy rivalry. What I'm not for is a rivalry in which one side just repeatedly brings up how shitty and outclassed the other side is/will be.
this, and the main thing I'm against is the blatant mod bias that's been happening ever since the elephent thread. Where bans/warning are very liberally handed out for anyone bashing on Bw or defending SC2, while the people bashing SC2 almost never get banned and very rarely even warned. But again sorry for the off topic. Really glad to see JD going through, he's probably the one kespa player I really actually wanna see dominate.
mods here came from sc1. obviously shouldn't be biased at all but think about how they feel towards bw bashing especially.
I understand how they feel, and I agree BW should be given the respect it deserves. Even though I didn't even know there was such a thing as esports or pro gaming till SC2 beta, I've played SC1 since before BW, I remember being in middle school and saving up allowance money to buy BW the day it came out, it was a great game and a part of many peoples childhoods. But it's still very unprofessional of the mods to have the blatant bias that they do, and I really hope it's something that gets fixed.
What I've come to notice is that the mods do, in fact, do a good job. Often times when someone feels they've been dealt injustice, it is really that they are looking at it through tinted glasses. Sometimes the person you think was bashing SC2 was not in fact bashing SC2 at all. When it comes to TL, some bias towards BW is only good. People who were not there to experience BW throughout the years should also remain silent if they don't have anything good to say. BW should always, and I think it always will, have a special place on TL.
But that's exactly what bias is. Telling people who weren't around during BW "well you shouldn't talk." That's the exact problem, and you don't seem to comprehend it. And now if you look there are far more people bashing SC2 as there are bashing BW, yet far more people defending SC2 that get bans/warnings for doing so. That IS bias. Often times when someone feels that something they are involved in (as you are on the BW side of arguments) are fair, they are looking at it through tinted glasses.
I didn't say there is no bias. I said when it comes to TL, some bias towards BW is in fact good. Do you see how easily you misread what I wrote? That is my point exactly. And you say there are far more people bashing SC as there are bashing BW and getting bans/warnings for doing so. I disagree. Now what? Do you have any kind of evidence to support your claim? You are claiming this purely on how you feel, and I dare say you are not the most objective person to make such observations. In reality though, I do not disagree. You might very well be right. But the difference isn't particularly big. Moreover, as I said, some bias is only good. It'll remind people to be respectful of how it all started.
This. The elephant article was probably one of the all-time low points of the TL writing staff, but the butthurt surrounding it is just as silly. Just root for your fav players people (fuck yeah effort!)
There wouldn't be any butthurt surrounding it if people didn't keep bringing it up as if it held any weight.
Conversely, people wouldnt keep bringing it up if there wasn't so much butthurt either. Such is life. :p
So the primary motivation for bringing it up is to troll and annoy people, right? Rather than being for any semblance of a productive reason >_>
Dude, you take this stuff way too seriously. Besides, this rivalry between GSL and KESPA players is probably the best thing that happened in Korea for the SC2 scene.
I'm all for a good, healthy rivalry. What I'm not for is a rivalry in which one side just repeatedly brings up how shitty and outclassed the other side is/will be.
this, and the main thing I'm against is the blatant mod bias that's been happening ever since the elephent thread. Where bans/warning are very liberally handed out for anyone bashing on Bw or defending SC2, while the people bashing SC2 almost never get banned and very rarely even warned. But again sorry for the off topic. Really glad to see JD going through, he's probably the one kespa player I really actually wanna see dominate.
mods here came from sc1. obviously shouldn't be biased at all but think about how they feel towards bw bashing especially.
I understand how they feel, and I agree BW should be given the respect it deserves. Even though I didn't even know there was such a thing as esports or pro gaming till SC2 beta, I've played SC1 since before BW, I remember being in middle school and saving up allowance money to buy BW the day it came out, it was a great game and a part of many peoples childhoods. But it's still very unprofessional of the mods to have the blatant bias that they do, and I really hope it's something that gets fixed.
What I've come to notice is that the mods do, in fact, do a good job. Often times when someone feels they've been dealt injustice, it is really that they are looking at it through tinted glasses. Sometimes the person you think was bashing SC2 was not in fact bashing SC2 at all. When it comes to TL, some bias towards BW is only good. People who were not there to experience BW throughout the years should also remain silent if they don't have anything good to say. BW should always, and I think it always will, have a special place on TL.
"I'm biased and I have the right to be biased because I've been here longer and some of the guys running the place are also biased. Anyone who doesn't like this bias should shut up and respect me." That's paraphrasing and exaggeration of course, and you seem to be one of the more reasonable BW guys, but nonetheless even your bias shines through. This is not a good thing, and that's exactly why I don't like mentions of the elephant, they make me feel less welcome here, like a 2nd class citizen or something. I hope this whole Kespa <-> Gom BS will be gone in a few months and we'll be enjoying watching good games as one community without one half telling the other how it was done back in the old days.
On August 15 2012 05:50 bgx wrote: I think Elephant represents well the twisted community we have here. Its transitional period, if you want to avoid elephant whether it is icon or animal simply don't talk/think about it. It will be all gone sooner or later. When people see Jaedong for a hundreth time they will familarize with him. So with other Kespa players, and soon "them" will be "ours" (for sc2 people).
But elephant puns are so much fun! :o
I honestly enjoy this rivalry a lot, it adds a lot of spice to these recent Korean tournaments. And the KeSPA players are only going to improve in the next 3-6 months.
I have no doubt that the absolute top players in BW will find there place at the top of the SCII foodchain, but I think the playing field will even-out in 3 to 6 months. Although it will require the GSL teams to work hard and tighten up there training schedule.
I think KeSPA players will lose some "unfair" advantages they have right now.
At this moment there is hardly any information available on KeSPA players. If player KeSPA X is preparing to play GSL player Y he can just google and find a bunch of information and create a game-plan. GSL players can only prepare vs Race and on Map. KeSPA player, right now, feel no pressure. They're expected to lose their matches versus GSL players, while GSL players can only lose.
A lot of people coming over from BW seem to have this idea that every SCII player is a BW reject. This is untrue. Some of these players we're still developing or they never played BW at all. I think some players might cause up-set. We'll see.
There wouldn't be any butthurt surrounding it if people didn't keep bringing it up as if it held any weight.
Conversely, people wouldnt keep bringing it up if there wasn't so much butthurt either. Such is life. :p
So the primary motivation for bringing it up is to troll and annoy people, right? Rather than being for any semblance of a productive reason >_>
Dude, you take this stuff way too seriously. Besides, this rivalry between GSL and KESPA players is probably the best thing that happened in Korea for the SC2 scene.
I'm all for a good, healthy rivalry. What I'm not for is a rivalry in which one side just repeatedly brings up how shitty and outclassed the other side is/will be.
this, and the main thing I'm against is the blatant mod bias that's been happening ever since the elephent thread. Where bans/warning are very liberally handed out for anyone bashing on Bw or defending SC2, while the people bashing SC2 almost never get banned and very rarely even warned. But again sorry for the off topic. Really glad to see JD going through, he's probably the one kespa player I really actually wanna see dominate.
mods here came from sc1. obviously shouldn't be biased at all but think about how they feel towards bw bashing especially.
I understand how they feel, and I agree BW should be given the respect it deserves. Even though I didn't even know there was such a thing as esports or pro gaming till SC2 beta, I've played SC1 since before BW, I remember being in middle school and saving up allowance money to buy BW the day it came out, it was a great game and a part of many peoples childhoods. But it's still very unprofessional of the mods to have the blatant bias that they do, and I really hope it's something that gets fixed.
What I've come to notice is that the mods do, in fact, do a good job. Often times when someone feels they've been dealt injustice, it is really that they are looking at it through tinted glasses. Sometimes the person you think was bashing SC2 was not in fact bashing SC2 at all. When it comes to TL, some bias towards BW is only good. People who were not there to experience BW throughout the years should also remain silent if they don't have anything good to say. BW should always, and I think it always will, have a special place on TL.
"I'm biased and I have the right to be biased because I've been here longer and some of the guys running the place are also biased. Anyone who doesn't like this bias should shut up and respect me." That's paraphrasing and exaggeration of course, and you seem to be one of the more reasonable BW guys, but nonetheless even your bias shines through. This is not a good thing, and that's exactly why I don't like mentions of the elephant, they make me feel less welcome here, like a 2nd class citizen or something. I hope this whole Kespa <-> Gom BS will be gone in a few months and we'll be enjoying watching good games as one community without one half telling the other how it was done back in the old days.
I like the BW history as long as it is good natured storytelling, not bashing. I agree on the being treated as 2nd class citizen .. hate it.
There wouldn't be any butthurt surrounding it if people didn't keep bringing it up as if it held any weight.
Conversely, people wouldnt keep bringing it up if there wasn't so much butthurt either. Such is life. :p
So the primary motivation for bringing it up is to troll and annoy people, right? Rather than being for any semblance of a productive reason >_>
Dude, you take this stuff way too seriously. Besides, this rivalry between GSL and KESPA players is probably the best thing that happened in Korea for the SC2 scene.
I'm all for a good, healthy rivalry. What I'm not for is a rivalry in which one side just repeatedly brings up how shitty and outclassed the other side is/will be.
this, and the main thing I'm against is the blatant mod bias that's been happening ever since the elephent thread. Where bans/warning are very liberally handed out for anyone bashing on Bw or defending SC2, while the people bashing SC2 almost never get banned and very rarely even warned. But again sorry for the off topic. Really glad to see JD going through, he's probably the one kespa player I really actually wanna see dominate.
mods here came from sc1. obviously shouldn't be biased at all but think about how they feel towards bw bashing especially.
I understand how they feel, and I agree BW should be given the respect it deserves. Even though I didn't even know there was such a thing as esports or pro gaming till SC2 beta, I've played SC1 since before BW, I remember being in middle school and saving up allowance money to buy BW the day it came out, it was a great game and a part of many peoples childhoods. But it's still very unprofessional of the mods to have the blatant bias that they do, and I really hope it's something that gets fixed.
What I've come to notice is that the mods do, in fact, do a good job. Often times when someone feels they've been dealt injustice, it is really that they are looking at it through tinted glasses. Sometimes the person you think was bashing SC2 was not in fact bashing SC2 at all. When it comes to TL, some bias towards BW is only good. People who were not there to experience BW throughout the years should also remain silent if they don't have anything good to say. BW should always, and I think it always will, have a special place on TL.
"I'm biased and I have the right to be biased because I've been here longer and some of the guys running the place are also biased. Anyone who doesn't like this bias should shut up and respect me." That's paraphrasing and exaggeration of course, and you seem to be one of the more reasonable BW guys, but nonetheless even your bias shines through. This is not a good thing, and that's exactly why I don't like mentions of the elephant, they make me feel less welcome here, like a 2nd class citizen or something. I hope this whole Kespa <-> Gom BS will be gone in a few months and we'll be enjoying watching good games as one community without one half telling the other how it was done back in the old days.
Oh, yes, I am biased, and I see nothing wrong with it at all. If you feel not welcome here and like a second class citizen, then that is even better! TL took a turn for the worse with the massive influx of new people. None of that you should take personally though. I just don't like this direction one bit. And what makes it worse is that TL is a site built on BW. I wouldn't care one bit if there was Team Solid, site built by SC2 guys, where you could go but there isn't. TL is originally a BW site and now people are asking to let go of that. Moreover, people fail to see that there are a lot of things you can't come and say about SC2 either. If somebody were to say CS is better than SC2, they'd be out pretty fast. So in fact there is bias towards SC2 as well. All of this is reasonable and not an issue at all since TL is a site dedicated to what it is. However, since the site was built as a shrine for BW, I think, it should remain biased toward BW. Anything else is like dancing on BW's eventual grave.
The Kespa vs GOM issue is really something that will go away. Perhaps someday there won't be Kespa vs Gom, but there will be an issue. You don't have to believe me, though, you can just go over to the fanclubs and look at who's the best foreign zerg player. Is it Idra or Stephano (no I am not asking you to answer)? Or if we go back a little is BW better than WC3? (Yes, yes it is.) These issues will always be there and Kespa vs GOM is nothing out of the ordinary.
On August 15 2012 05:13 elmizzt wrote: [quote] Conversely, people wouldnt keep bringing it up if there wasn't so much butthurt either. Such is life. :p
So the primary motivation for bringing it up is to troll and annoy people, right? Rather than being for any semblance of a productive reason >_>
Dude, you take this stuff way too seriously. Besides, this rivalry between GSL and KESPA players is probably the best thing that happened in Korea for the SC2 scene.
I'm all for a good, healthy rivalry. What I'm not for is a rivalry in which one side just repeatedly brings up how shitty and outclassed the other side is/will be.
this, and the main thing I'm against is the blatant mod bias that's been happening ever since the elephent thread. Where bans/warning are very liberally handed out for anyone bashing on Bw or defending SC2, while the people bashing SC2 almost never get banned and very rarely even warned. But again sorry for the off topic. Really glad to see JD going through, he's probably the one kespa player I really actually wanna see dominate.
mods here came from sc1. obviously shouldn't be biased at all but think about how they feel towards bw bashing especially.
I understand how they feel, and I agree BW should be given the respect it deserves. Even though I didn't even know there was such a thing as esports or pro gaming till SC2 beta, I've played SC1 since before BW, I remember being in middle school and saving up allowance money to buy BW the day it came out, it was a great game and a part of many peoples childhoods. But it's still very unprofessional of the mods to have the blatant bias that they do, and I really hope it's something that gets fixed.
What I've come to notice is that the mods do, in fact, do a good job. Often times when someone feels they've been dealt injustice, it is really that they are looking at it through tinted glasses. Sometimes the person you think was bashing SC2 was not in fact bashing SC2 at all. When it comes to TL, some bias towards BW is only good. People who were not there to experience BW throughout the years should also remain silent if they don't have anything good to say. BW should always, and I think it always will, have a special place on TL.
"I'm biased and I have the right to be biased because I've been here longer and some of the guys running the place are also biased. Anyone who doesn't like this bias should shut up and respect me." That's paraphrasing and exaggeration of course, and you seem to be one of the more reasonable BW guys, but nonetheless even your bias shines through. This is not a good thing, and that's exactly why I don't like mentions of the elephant, they make me feel less welcome here, like a 2nd class citizen or something. I hope this whole Kespa <-> Gom BS will be gone in a few months and we'll be enjoying watching good games as one community without one half telling the other how it was done back in the old days.
Oh, yes, I am biased, and I see nothing wrong with it at all. If you feel not welcome here and like a second class citizen, then that is even better! TL took a turn for the worse with the massive influx of new people. None of that you should take personally though. I just don't like this direction one bit. And what makes it worse is that TL is a site built on BW. I wouldn't care one bit if there was Team Solid, site built by SC2 guys, where you could go but there isn't. TL is originally a BW site and now people are asking to let go of that. Moreover, people fail to see that there are a lot of things you can't come and say about SC2 either. If somebody were to say CS is better than SC2, they'd be out pretty fast. So in fact there is bias towards SC2 as well. All of this is reasonable and not an issue at all since TL is a site dedicated to what it is. However, since the site was built as a shrine for BW, I think, it should remain biased toward BW. Anything else is like dancing on BW's eventual grave.
The Kespa vs GOM issue is really something that will go away. Perhaps someday there won't be Kespa vs Gom, but there will be an issue. You don't have to believe me, though, you can just go over to the fanclubs and look at who's the best foreign zerg player. Is it Idra or Stephano (no I am not asking you to answer)? Or if we go back a little is BW better than WC3? (Yes, yes it is.) These issues will always be there and Kespa vs GOM is nothing out of the ordinary.
Feeling unwelcome and like a second-class citizen is a good thing? Wow. You're being really condescending, you know. Fact is, that with the BW era ending, there will only be more SC2 fans signing up here, and you'll be stuck being bitter, bemoaning how TL as changed, talking down to all the SC2 fans. And you're going to be looking really silly doing so, because (this is just speculation, but it seems logical) I'm pretty sure that TL largely benefits financially from all the traffic it has, and guess what? Most of that traffic is due to SC2 at this point.
So the primary motivation for bringing it up is to troll and annoy people, right? Rather than being for any semblance of a productive reason >_>
Dude, you take this stuff way too seriously. Besides, this rivalry between GSL and KESPA players is probably the best thing that happened in Korea for the SC2 scene.
I'm all for a good, healthy rivalry. What I'm not for is a rivalry in which one side just repeatedly brings up how shitty and outclassed the other side is/will be.
this, and the main thing I'm against is the blatant mod bias that's been happening ever since the elephent thread. Where bans/warning are very liberally handed out for anyone bashing on Bw or defending SC2, while the people bashing SC2 almost never get banned and very rarely even warned. But again sorry for the off topic. Really glad to see JD going through, he's probably the one kespa player I really actually wanna see dominate.
mods here came from sc1. obviously shouldn't be biased at all but think about how they feel towards bw bashing especially.
I understand how they feel, and I agree BW should be given the respect it deserves. Even though I didn't even know there was such a thing as esports or pro gaming till SC2 beta, I've played SC1 since before BW, I remember being in middle school and saving up allowance money to buy BW the day it came out, it was a great game and a part of many peoples childhoods. But it's still very unprofessional of the mods to have the blatant bias that they do, and I really hope it's something that gets fixed.
What I've come to notice is that the mods do, in fact, do a good job. Often times when someone feels they've been dealt injustice, it is really that they are looking at it through tinted glasses. Sometimes the person you think was bashing SC2 was not in fact bashing SC2 at all. When it comes to TL, some bias towards BW is only good. People who were not there to experience BW throughout the years should also remain silent if they don't have anything good to say. BW should always, and I think it always will, have a special place on TL.
"I'm biased and I have the right to be biased because I've been here longer and some of the guys running the place are also biased. Anyone who doesn't like this bias should shut up and respect me." That's paraphrasing and exaggeration of course, and you seem to be one of the more reasonable BW guys, but nonetheless even your bias shines through. This is not a good thing, and that's exactly why I don't like mentions of the elephant, they make me feel less welcome here, like a 2nd class citizen or something. I hope this whole Kespa <-> Gom BS will be gone in a few months and we'll be enjoying watching good games as one community without one half telling the other how it was done back in the old days.
Oh, yes, I am biased, and I see nothing wrong with it at all. If you feel not welcome here and like a second class citizen, then that is even better! TL took a turn for the worse with the massive influx of new people. None of that you should take personally though. I just don't like this direction one bit. And what makes it worse is that TL is a site built on BW. I wouldn't care one bit if there was Team Solid, site built by SC2 guys, where you could go but there isn't. TL is originally a BW site and now people are asking to let go of that. Moreover, people fail to see that there are a lot of things you can't come and say about SC2 either. If somebody were to say CS is better than SC2, they'd be out pretty fast. So in fact there is bias towards SC2 as well. All of this is reasonable and not an issue at all since TL is a site dedicated to what it is. However, since the site was built as a shrine for BW, I think, it should remain biased toward BW. Anything else is like dancing on BW's eventual grave.
The Kespa vs GOM issue is really something that will go away. Perhaps someday there won't be Kespa vs Gom, but there will be an issue. You don't have to believe me, though, you can just go over to the fanclubs and look at who's the best foreign zerg player. Is it Idra or Stephano (no I am not asking you to answer)? Or if we go back a little is BW better than WC3? (Yes, yes it is.) These issues will always be there and Kespa vs GOM is nothing out of the ordinary.
Feeling unwelcome and like a second-class citizen is a good thing? Wow. You're being really condescending, you know. Fact is, that with the BW era ending, there will only be more SC2 fans signing up here, and you'll be stuck being bitter, bemoaning how TL as changed, talking down to all the SC2 fans. And you're going to be looking really silly doing so, because (this is just speculation, but it seems logical) I'm pretty sure that TL largely benefits financially from all the traffic it has, and guess what? Most of that traffic is due to SC2 at this point.
I think it is important to note that while the actual site may have been built specifically for BW (note: on the banner for this site it says StarCraft Progaming News, not BW or SC2), the actual "Team Liquid" plays StarCraft 2 now. Instead of having a huge divide, why not just respect BW and SC2 (and SC3, etc if it ever comes to that). Why? They're both StarCraft. Different, yes, but still both StarCraft. BW has more or less laid the foundations upon which SC2 has been built (I think WC3 helped too). So respect BW for what it and its players have done and embrace SC2 and guide it in fulfilling the potential it has.
Is it really that hard to like both sides? That's not to say some friendly rivalry is out of the question haha.
Dude, you take this stuff way too seriously. Besides, this rivalry between GSL and KESPA players is probably the best thing that happened in Korea for the SC2 scene.
I'm all for a good, healthy rivalry. What I'm not for is a rivalry in which one side just repeatedly brings up how shitty and outclassed the other side is/will be.
this, and the main thing I'm against is the blatant mod bias that's been happening ever since the elephent thread. Where bans/warning are very liberally handed out for anyone bashing on Bw or defending SC2, while the people bashing SC2 almost never get banned and very rarely even warned. But again sorry for the off topic. Really glad to see JD going through, he's probably the one kespa player I really actually wanna see dominate.
mods here came from sc1. obviously shouldn't be biased at all but think about how they feel towards bw bashing especially.
I understand how they feel, and I agree BW should be given the respect it deserves. Even though I didn't even know there was such a thing as esports or pro gaming till SC2 beta, I've played SC1 since before BW, I remember being in middle school and saving up allowance money to buy BW the day it came out, it was a great game and a part of many peoples childhoods. But it's still very unprofessional of the mods to have the blatant bias that they do, and I really hope it's something that gets fixed.
What I've come to notice is that the mods do, in fact, do a good job. Often times when someone feels they've been dealt injustice, it is really that they are looking at it through tinted glasses. Sometimes the person you think was bashing SC2 was not in fact bashing SC2 at all. When it comes to TL, some bias towards BW is only good. People who were not there to experience BW throughout the years should also remain silent if they don't have anything good to say. BW should always, and I think it always will, have a special place on TL.
"I'm biased and I have the right to be biased because I've been here longer and some of the guys running the place are also biased. Anyone who doesn't like this bias should shut up and respect me." That's paraphrasing and exaggeration of course, and you seem to be one of the more reasonable BW guys, but nonetheless even your bias shines through. This is not a good thing, and that's exactly why I don't like mentions of the elephant, they make me feel less welcome here, like a 2nd class citizen or something. I hope this whole Kespa <-> Gom BS will be gone in a few months and we'll be enjoying watching good games as one community without one half telling the other how it was done back in the old days.
Oh, yes, I am biased, and I see nothing wrong with it at all. If you feel not welcome here and like a second class citizen, then that is even better! TL took a turn for the worse with the massive influx of new people. None of that you should take personally though. I just don't like this direction one bit. And what makes it worse is that TL is a site built on BW. I wouldn't care one bit if there was Team Solid, site built by SC2 guys, where you could go but there isn't. TL is originally a BW site and now people are asking to let go of that. Moreover, people fail to see that there are a lot of things you can't come and say about SC2 either. If somebody were to say CS is better than SC2, they'd be out pretty fast. So in fact there is bias towards SC2 as well. All of this is reasonable and not an issue at all since TL is a site dedicated to what it is. However, since the site was built as a shrine for BW, I think, it should remain biased toward BW. Anything else is like dancing on BW's eventual grave.
The Kespa vs GOM issue is really something that will go away. Perhaps someday there won't be Kespa vs Gom, but there will be an issue. You don't have to believe me, though, you can just go over to the fanclubs and look at who's the best foreign zerg player. Is it Idra or Stephano (no I am not asking you to answer)? Or if we go back a little is BW better than WC3? (Yes, yes it is.) These issues will always be there and Kespa vs GOM is nothing out of the ordinary.
Feeling unwelcome and like a second-class citizen is a good thing? Wow. You're being really condescending, you know. Fact is, that with the BW era ending, there will only be more SC2 fans signing up here, and you'll be stuck being bitter, bemoaning how TL as changed, talking down to all the SC2 fans. And you're going to be looking really silly doing so, because (this is just speculation, but it seems logical) I'm pretty sure that TL largely benefits financially from all the traffic it has, and guess what? Most of that traffic is due to SC2 at this point.
I think it is important to note that while the actual site may have been built specifically for BW (note: on the banner for this site it says StarCraft Progaming News, not BW or SC2), the actual "Team Liquid" plays StarCraft 2 now. Instead of having a huge divide, why not just respect BW and SC2 (and SC3, etc if it ever comes to that). Why? They're both StarCraft. Different, yes, but still both StarCraft. BW has more or less laid the foundations upon which SC2 has been built (I think WC3 helped too). So respect BW for what it and its players have done and embrace SC2 and guide it in fulfilling the potential it has.
Is it really that hard to like both sides? That's not to say some friendly rivalry is out of the question haha.
I agree with this. I have a massive amount of respect for the overall BW scene and the skill of the BW pros. I simply dislike the attitudes of certain BW fans.
So the primary motivation for bringing it up is to troll and annoy people, right? Rather than being for any semblance of a productive reason >_>
Dude, you take this stuff way too seriously. Besides, this rivalry between GSL and KESPA players is probably the best thing that happened in Korea for the SC2 scene.
I'm all for a good, healthy rivalry. What I'm not for is a rivalry in which one side just repeatedly brings up how shitty and outclassed the other side is/will be.
this, and the main thing I'm against is the blatant mod bias that's been happening ever since the elephent thread. Where bans/warning are very liberally handed out for anyone bashing on Bw or defending SC2, while the people bashing SC2 almost never get banned and very rarely even warned. But again sorry for the off topic. Really glad to see JD going through, he's probably the one kespa player I really actually wanna see dominate.
mods here came from sc1. obviously shouldn't be biased at all but think about how they feel towards bw bashing especially.
I understand how they feel, and I agree BW should be given the respect it deserves. Even though I didn't even know there was such a thing as esports or pro gaming till SC2 beta, I've played SC1 since before BW, I remember being in middle school and saving up allowance money to buy BW the day it came out, it was a great game and a part of many peoples childhoods. But it's still very unprofessional of the mods to have the blatant bias that they do, and I really hope it's something that gets fixed.
What I've come to notice is that the mods do, in fact, do a good job. Often times when someone feels they've been dealt injustice, it is really that they are looking at it through tinted glasses. Sometimes the person you think was bashing SC2 was not in fact bashing SC2 at all. When it comes to TL, some bias towards BW is only good. People who were not there to experience BW throughout the years should also remain silent if they don't have anything good to say. BW should always, and I think it always will, have a special place on TL.
"I'm biased and I have the right to be biased because I've been here longer and some of the guys running the place are also biased. Anyone who doesn't like this bias should shut up and respect me." That's paraphrasing and exaggeration of course, and you seem to be one of the more reasonable BW guys, but nonetheless even your bias shines through. This is not a good thing, and that's exactly why I don't like mentions of the elephant, they make me feel less welcome here, like a 2nd class citizen or something. I hope this whole Kespa <-> Gom BS will be gone in a few months and we'll be enjoying watching good games as one community without one half telling the other how it was done back in the old days.
Oh, yes, I am biased, and I see nothing wrong with it at all. If you feel not welcome here and like a second class citizen, then that is even better! TL took a turn for the worse with the massive influx of new people. None of that you should take personally though. I just don't like this direction one bit. And what makes it worse is that TL is a site built on BW. I wouldn't care one bit if there was Team Solid, site built by SC2 guys, where you could go but there isn't. TL is originally a BW site and now people are asking to let go of that. Moreover, people fail to see that there are a lot of things you can't come and say about SC2 either. If somebody were to say CS is better than SC2, they'd be out pretty fast. So in fact there is bias towards SC2 as well. All of this is reasonable and not an issue at all since TL is a site dedicated to what it is. However, since the site was built as a shrine for BW, I think, it should remain biased toward BW. Anything else is like dancing on BW's eventual grave.
The Kespa vs GOM issue is really something that will go away. Perhaps someday there won't be Kespa vs Gom, but there will be an issue. You don't have to believe me, though, you can just go over to the fanclubs and look at who's the best foreign zerg player. Is it Idra or Stephano (no I am not asking you to answer)? Or if we go back a little is BW better than WC3? (Yes, yes it is.) These issues will always be there and Kespa vs GOM is nothing out of the ordinary.
Feeling unwelcome and like a second-class citizen is a good thing? You're being really condescending, you know. Fact is that with the BW era ending, there will only be more SC2 fans signing up here, and you'll be stuck being bitter, bemoaning how TL as changed, talking down to all the SC2 fans. And you're going to be looking really silly doing so, because (this is just speculation, but it seems logical) I'm pretty sure that TL largely benefits financially from all the traffic it has, and guess what? Most of that traffic is due to SC2 at this point.
Yes, if the unwelcome second-class citizens are destroying things*. Also, I am not sure why you are telling me about traffic for example as if I didn't know about it. Of course all the traffic has been beneficial for TL financially. Of course this is a change that won't be reverted. Everybody knows that and that is why they don't like it.
An analogy of scope (not scale): the only proper English fanpage for The Beatles in the world is turned into a fanpage of Justin Bieber. The site grows with an influx of new members. This benefits the staff. The new members begin threads wondering which of the two is better, The Beatles or Justin Bieber. This does not benefit the original members. What kind of reaction do you want to see from the original members?
Now, that post of yours is something akin to twisting the knife just because people won't roll over and die. Why should people just roll over and die?
On August 15 2012 07:23 opterown wrote: guys, as i said in the other thread - ignore Squeegy like the plague, he's not worth it
But why am I not worth it and why should I be ignored? I am not posting one liners or calling you names. Somebody even called me one of the more reasonable BW fans here in this very thread. You don't have to like what I say but that does not mean that I am not worth it. And if this topic is of interest to some, I don't see why they should ignore me specifically. Of course if they don't wish to discuss the topic they can ignore me, and I'm sure many do, but since they keep discussing it with me, it seems to me like the topic is of interest to them.
On August 14 2012 20:07 Squeegy wrote: I don't think I even have to say it. The guy called the best player in the world around a month ago just lost to one of the elephants playing two games and SC2 only for little while. U mad?
If you feel not welcome here and like a second class citizen, then that is even better!
Somebody even called me one of the more reasonable BW fans here in this very thread. You don't have to like what I say but that does not mean that I am not worth it. And if this topic is of interest to some, I don't see why they should ignore me specifically. Of course if they don't wish to discuss the topic they can ignore me, and I'm sure many do, but since they keep discussing it with me, it seems to me like the topic is of interest to them.
One 1day only you broke 2 of the things you said you don't do, great job there.
I just Love Starcraft. I respect and like BW. And I like and watch sc2 I hope the Kespa pros catch up fast because that just means more excellent starcraft. I understand what some BW fans are feeling but it is no need to hate and same goes for SC2 fans I just want everyone to get along and enjoy some great Starcraft with me .
On August 15 2012 07:23 opterown wrote: guys, as i said in the other thread - ignore Squeegy like the plague, he's not worth it
But why am I not worth it and why should I be ignored? I am not posting one liners
On August 14 2012 20:07 Squeegy wrote: I don't think I even have to say it. The guy called the best player in the world around a month ago just lost to one of the elephants playing two games and SC2 only for little while. U mad?
or calling you names.
If you feel not welcome here and like a second class citizen, then that is even better!
Somebody even called me one of the more reasonable BW fans here in this very thread. You don't have to like what I say but that does not mean that I am not worth it. And if this topic is of interest to some, I don't see why they should ignore me specifically. Of course if they don't wish to discuss the topic they can ignore me, and I'm sure many do, but since they keep discussing it with me, it seems to me like the topic is of interest to them.
But look at my posts in this thread. Are they somehow corrupt?
When I said if someone feels like a second-class citizen it is a good thing, I did not call anyone names. Nor did I, in fact, call anyone a second-class citizen either.
On August 15 2012 07:23 opterown wrote: guys, as i said in the other thread - ignore Squeegy like the plague, he's not worth it
But why am I not worth it and why should I be ignored? I am not posting one liners
On August 14 2012 20:07 Squeegy wrote: I don't think I even have to say it. The guy called the best player in the world around a month ago just lost to one of the elephants playing two games and SC2 only for little while. U mad?
or calling you names.
If you feel not welcome here and like a second class citizen, then that is even better!
Somebody even called me one of the more reasonable BW fans here in this very thread. You don't have to like what I say but that does not mean that I am not worth it. And if this topic is of interest to some, I don't see why they should ignore me specifically. Of course if they don't wish to discuss the topic they can ignore me, and I'm sure many do, but since they keep discussing it with me, it seems to me like the topic is of interest to them.
But look at my posts in this thread. Are they somehow corrupt?
When I said if someone feels like a second-class citizen it is a good thing, I did not call anyone names. Nor did I, in fact, call anyone a second-class citizen either.
But you DID say that anyone who's not from BW SHOULD feel like a second class citizen, and that they aren't welcome here. You basically sound like an old village guy who just watched his village turn into a city and is angry and wants all the "city slickin folk" to leave him to his old timey ways.
On August 15 2012 07:23 opterown wrote: guys, as i said in the other thread - ignore Squeegy like the plague, he's not worth it
But why am I not worth it and why should I be ignored? I am not posting one liners
On August 14 2012 20:07 Squeegy wrote: I don't think I even have to say it. The guy called the best player in the world around a month ago just lost to one of the elephants playing two games and SC2 only for little while. U mad?
or calling you names.
If you feel not welcome here and like a second class citizen, then that is even better!
Somebody even called me one of the more reasonable BW fans here in this very thread. You don't have to like what I say but that does not mean that I am not worth it. And if this topic is of interest to some, I don't see why they should ignore me specifically. Of course if they don't wish to discuss the topic they can ignore me, and I'm sure many do, but since they keep discussing it with me, it seems to me like the topic is of interest to them.
But look at my posts in this thread. Are they somehow corrupt?
When I said if someone feels like a second-class citizen it is a good thing, I did not call anyone names. Nor did I, in fact, call anyone a second-class citizen either.
But you DID say that anyone who's not from BW SHOULD feel like a second class citizen, and that they aren't welcome here. You basically sound like an old village guy who just watched his village turn into a city and is angry and wants all the "city slickin folk" to leave him to his old timey ways.
But I did not call you names there, and that is what we're discussing here, is it not? Moreover, what I said is not actually that you should feel that way. I said that it is good if you do. The point was that I prefer TL as it were, before all the new members, and that perhaps it could return to those days. Of course it can't, so I am not actually expecting you to go anywhere. So yes, your comparison is pretty accurate. But do notice that I am not saying that you should anything, expect perhaps respect BW.
On August 15 2012 05:13 elmizzt wrote: [quote] Conversely, people wouldnt keep bringing it up if there wasn't so much butthurt either. Such is life. :p
So the primary motivation for bringing it up is to troll and annoy people, right? Rather than being for any semblance of a productive reason >_>
Dude, you take this stuff way too seriously. Besides, this rivalry between GSL and KESPA players is probably the best thing that happened in Korea for the SC2 scene.
I'm all for a good, healthy rivalry. What I'm not for is a rivalry in which one side just repeatedly brings up how shitty and outclassed the other side is/will be.
this, and the main thing I'm against is the blatant mod bias that's been happening ever since the elephent thread. Where bans/warning are very liberally handed out for anyone bashing on Bw or defending SC2, while the people bashing SC2 almost never get banned and very rarely even warned. But again sorry for the off topic. Really glad to see JD going through, he's probably the one kespa player I really actually wanna see dominate.
mods here came from sc1. obviously shouldn't be biased at all but think about how they feel towards bw bashing especially.
I understand how they feel, and I agree BW should be given the respect it deserves. Even though I didn't even know there was such a thing as esports or pro gaming till SC2 beta, I've played SC1 since before BW, I remember being in middle school and saving up allowance money to buy BW the day it came out, it was a great game and a part of many peoples childhoods. But it's still very unprofessional of the mods to have the blatant bias that they do, and I really hope it's something that gets fixed.
What I've come to notice is that the mods do, in fact, do a good job. Often times when someone feels they've been dealt injustice, it is really that they are looking at it through tinted glasses. Sometimes the person you think was bashing SC2 was not in fact bashing SC2 at all. When it comes to TL, some bias towards BW is only good. People who were not there to experience BW throughout the years should also remain silent if they don't have anything good to say. BW should always, and I think it always will, have a special place on TL.
But that's exactly what bias is. Telling people who weren't around during BW "well you shouldn't talk." That's the exact problem, and you don't seem to comprehend it. And now if you look there are far more people bashing SC2 as there are bashing BW, yet far more people defending SC2 that get bans/warnings for doing so. That IS bias. Often times when someone feels that something they are involved in (as you are on the BW side of arguments) are fair, they are looking at it through tinted glasses.
I didn't say there is no bias. I said when it comes to TL, some bias towards BW is in fact good. Do you see how easily you misread what I wrote? That is my point exactly. And you say there are far more people bashing SC as there are bashing BW and getting bans/warnings for doing so. I disagree. Now what? Do you have any kind of evidence to support your claim? You are claiming this purely on how you feel, and I dare say you are not the most objective person to make such observations. In reality though, I do not disagree. You might very well be right. But the difference isn't particularly big. Moreover, as I said, some bias is only good. It'll remind people to be respectful of how it all started.
Bias in moderating is NEVER good. I have experienced it often enough and have no desire for it to continue in a community that supposedly strives to be the best SC place to be.
On August 15 2012 07:23 opterown wrote: guys, as i said in the other thread - ignore Squeegy like the plague, he's not worth it
But why am I not worth it and why should I be ignored? I am not posting one liners
On August 14 2012 20:07 Squeegy wrote: I don't think I even have to say it. The guy called the best player in the world around a month ago just lost to one of the elephants playing two games and SC2 only for little while. U mad?
or calling you names.
If you feel not welcome here and like a second class citizen, then that is even better!
Somebody even called me one of the more reasonable BW fans here in this very thread. You don't have to like what I say but that does not mean that I am not worth it. And if this topic is of interest to some, I don't see why they should ignore me specifically. Of course if they don't wish to discuss the topic they can ignore me, and I'm sure many do, but since they keep discussing it with me, it seems to me like the topic is of interest to them.
But look at my posts in this thread. Are they somehow corrupt?
When I said if someone feels like a second-class citizen it is a good thing, I did not call anyone names. Nor did I, in fact, call anyone a second-class citizen either.
But you DID say that anyone who's not from BW SHOULD feel like a second class citizen, and that they aren't welcome here. You basically sound like an old village guy who just watched his village turn into a city and is angry and wants all the "city slickin folk" to leave him to his old timey ways.
But I did not call you names there, and that is what we're discussing here, is it not? Moreover, what I said is not actually that you should feel that way. I said that it is good if you do. The point was that I prefer TL as it were, before all the new members, and that perhaps it could return to those days. Of course it can't, so I am not actually expecting you to go anywhere. So yes, your comparison is pretty accurate. But do notice that I am not saying that you should anything, expect perhaps respect BW.
Well first off though, why SHOULD we really respect the BW people if they show disrespect and animosity towards us in the way you do? Also calling people names isn't the only thing you can do to come off as hostile, and you DO come off as hostile. Also pretty funny you talk about "good old days" When you've barely been here a year longer than me lol. Oh well, I don't actually expect the mods to stop being biased, but it definitely makes me lose respect for TL as a legitimate community site.
So the primary motivation for bringing it up is to troll and annoy people, right? Rather than being for any semblance of a productive reason >_>
Dude, you take this stuff way too seriously. Besides, this rivalry between GSL and KESPA players is probably the best thing that happened in Korea for the SC2 scene.
I'm all for a good, healthy rivalry. What I'm not for is a rivalry in which one side just repeatedly brings up how shitty and outclassed the other side is/will be.
this, and the main thing I'm against is the blatant mod bias that's been happening ever since the elephent thread. Where bans/warning are very liberally handed out for anyone bashing on Bw or defending SC2, while the people bashing SC2 almost never get banned and very rarely even warned. But again sorry for the off topic. Really glad to see JD going through, he's probably the one kespa player I really actually wanna see dominate.
mods here came from sc1. obviously shouldn't be biased at all but think about how they feel towards bw bashing especially.
I understand how they feel, and I agree BW should be given the respect it deserves. Even though I didn't even know there was such a thing as esports or pro gaming till SC2 beta, I've played SC1 since before BW, I remember being in middle school and saving up allowance money to buy BW the day it came out, it was a great game and a part of many peoples childhoods. But it's still very unprofessional of the mods to have the blatant bias that they do, and I really hope it's something that gets fixed.
What I've come to notice is that the mods do, in fact, do a good job. Often times when someone feels they've been dealt injustice, it is really that they are looking at it through tinted glasses. Sometimes the person you think was bashing SC2 was not in fact bashing SC2 at all. When it comes to TL, some bias towards BW is only good. People who were not there to experience BW throughout the years should also remain silent if they don't have anything good to say. BW should always, and I think it always will, have a special place on TL.
But that's exactly what bias is. Telling people who weren't around during BW "well you shouldn't talk." That's the exact problem, and you don't seem to comprehend it. And now if you look there are far more people bashing SC2 as there are bashing BW, yet far more people defending SC2 that get bans/warnings for doing so. That IS bias. Often times when someone feels that something they are involved in (as you are on the BW side of arguments) are fair, they are looking at it through tinted glasses.
I didn't say there is no bias. I said when it comes to TL, some bias towards BW is in fact good. Do you see how easily you misread what I wrote? That is my point exactly. And you say there are far more people bashing SC as there are bashing BW and getting bans/warnings for doing so. I disagree. Now what? Do you have any kind of evidence to support your claim? You are claiming this purely on how you feel, and I dare say you are not the most objective person to make such observations. In reality though, I do not disagree. You might very well be right. But the difference isn't particularly big. Moreover, as I said, some bias is only good. It'll remind people to be respectful of how it all started.
Bias in moderating is NEVER good. I have experienced it often enough and have no desire for it to continue in a community that supposedly strives to be the best SC place to be.
It is nice that you think so. But there would be more iron in your words if you explained why you think so.
On August 15 2012 07:23 opterown wrote: guys, as i said in the other thread - ignore Squeegy like the plague, he's not worth it
But why am I not worth it and why should I be ignored? I am not posting one liners
On August 14 2012 20:07 Squeegy wrote: I don't think I even have to say it. The guy called the best player in the world around a month ago just lost to one of the elephants playing two games and SC2 only for little while. U mad?
or calling you names.
If you feel not welcome here and like a second class citizen, then that is even better!
Somebody even called me one of the more reasonable BW fans here in this very thread. You don't have to like what I say but that does not mean that I am not worth it. And if this topic is of interest to some, I don't see why they should ignore me specifically. Of course if they don't wish to discuss the topic they can ignore me, and I'm sure many do, but since they keep discussing it with me, it seems to me like the topic is of interest to them.
But look at my posts in this thread. Are they somehow corrupt?
When I said if someone feels like a second-class citizen it is a good thing, I did not call anyone names. Nor did I, in fact, call anyone a second-class citizen either.
But you DID say that anyone who's not from BW SHOULD feel like a second class citizen, and that they aren't welcome here. You basically sound like an old village guy who just watched his village turn into a city and is angry and wants all the "city slickin folk" to leave him to his old timey ways.
But I did not call you names there, and that is what we're discussing here, is it not? Moreover, what I said is not actually that you should feel that way. I said that it is good if you do. The point was that I prefer TL as it were, before all the new members, and that perhaps it could return to those days. Of course it can't, so I am not actually expecting you to go anywhere. So yes, your comparison is pretty accurate. But do notice that I am not saying that you should anything, expect perhaps respect BW.
Well first off though, why SHOULD we really respect the BW people if they show disrespect and animosity towards us in the way you do? Also calling people names isn't the only thing you can do to come off as hostile, and you DO come off as hostile. Also pretty funny you talk about "good old days" When you've barely been here a year longer than me lol. Oh well, I don't actually expect the mods to stop being biased, but it definitely makes me lose respect for TL as a legitimate community site.
I don't really care all that much if you respect the people. I care that you respect the legacy of BW. Well, I would hope that you would respect me for the fact that I've been part of this community for a long time. Much longer than this account, I assure you. Of course some people don't respect things like that, so that is up to you. Anyway, if you respect the legacy of BW, I don't have an issue. Of course what I mean by respecting the legacy might be more controversial.
Many of the things that I say that come off as hostile are really just an issue with the person interpreting it that way. I pointed this out earlier in this thread. I do come off as hostile too, no doubt, but not as often as people think. People just have a habit of reading too much into things. Like the elephant thread. I have seen people claim ridiculous things like that the elephant thread was about 100% crushing victory from the instant Kespa players switch.
And when it comes to the mods, well, we can agree to disagree.
On August 15 2012 07:23 opterown wrote: guys, as i said in the other thread - ignore Squeegy like the plague, he's not worth it
But why am I not worth it and why should I be ignored? I am not posting one liners
On August 14 2012 20:07 Squeegy wrote: I don't think I even have to say it. The guy called the best player in the world around a month ago just lost to one of the elephants playing two games and SC2 only for little while. U mad?
or calling you names.
If you feel not welcome here and like a second class citizen, then that is even better!
Somebody even called me one of the more reasonable BW fans here in this very thread. You don't have to like what I say but that does not mean that I am not worth it. And if this topic is of interest to some, I don't see why they should ignore me specifically. Of course if they don't wish to discuss the topic they can ignore me, and I'm sure many do, but since they keep discussing it with me, it seems to me like the topic is of interest to them.
But look at my posts in this thread. Are they somehow corrupt?
When I said if someone feels like a second-class citizen it is a good thing, I did not call anyone names. Nor did I, in fact, call anyone a second-class citizen either.
But you DID say that anyone who's not from BW SHOULD feel like a second class citizen, and that they aren't welcome here. You basically sound like an old village guy who just watched his village turn into a city and is angry and wants all the "city slickin folk" to leave him to his old timey ways.
But I did not call you names there, and that is what we're discussing here, is it not? Moreover, what I said is not actually that you should feel that way. I said that it is good if you do. The point was that I prefer TL as it were, before all the new members, and that perhaps it could return to those days. Of course it can't, so I am not actually expecting you to go anywhere. So yes, your comparison is pretty accurate. But do notice that I am not saying that you should anything, expect perhaps respect BW.
You know, most SC2 fans do respect BW. The ones that don't, they don't respect it because you have all these god damn BW elitists who think that anyone who follows or enjoys SC2 is sub-human, so naturally they are hesitant to embrace something that is so associated with people who constantly bash a game that they enjoy.
Or they are trolls trying to prompt a reaction, and you shouldn't pay too much attention to them anyways.
On August 15 2012 07:23 opterown wrote: guys, as i said in the other thread - ignore Squeegy like the plague, he's not worth it
But why am I not worth it and why should I be ignored? I am not posting one liners
On August 14 2012 20:07 Squeegy wrote: I don't think I even have to say it. The guy called the best player in the world around a month ago just lost to one of the elephants playing two games and SC2 only for little while. U mad?
or calling you names.
If you feel not welcome here and like a second class citizen, then that is even better!
Somebody even called me one of the more reasonable BW fans here in this very thread. You don't have to like what I say but that does not mean that I am not worth it. And if this topic is of interest to some, I don't see why they should ignore me specifically. Of course if they don't wish to discuss the topic they can ignore me, and I'm sure many do, but since they keep discussing it with me, it seems to me like the topic is of interest to them.
But look at my posts in this thread. Are they somehow corrupt?
When I said if someone feels like a second-class citizen it is a good thing, I did not call anyone names. Nor did I, in fact, call anyone a second-class citizen either.
But you DID say that anyone who's not from BW SHOULD feel like a second class citizen, and that they aren't welcome here. You basically sound like an old village guy who just watched his village turn into a city and is angry and wants all the "city slickin folk" to leave him to his old timey ways.
But I did not call you names there, and that is what we're discussing here, is it not? Moreover, what I said is not actually that you should feel that way. I said that it is good if you do. The point was that I prefer TL as it were, before all the new members, and that perhaps it could return to those days. Of course it can't, so I am not actually expecting you to go anywhere. So yes, your comparison is pretty accurate. But do notice that I am not saying that you should anything, expect perhaps respect BW.
You know, most SC2 fans do respect BW. The ones that don't, they don't respect it because you have all these god damn BW elitists who think that anyone who follows or enjoys SC2 is sub-human, so naturally they are hesitant to embrace something that is so associated with people who constantly bash a game that they enjoy.
Or they are trolls trying to prompt a reaction, and you shouldn't pay too much attention to them anyways.
I don't even see how this became about respecting BW in the first place. Nobody, as far as I can see, is disrespecting BW at all. What people are disrespecting, however, is annoying, elitist BW fans. Not all BW fans, to be clear, but just ones from that ugly subset.
On August 15 2012 09:22 opterown wrote: Well, StorkHwaiting is gone, that's about half of the combative BW posts LR thread yesterday almost got ugly but turned out okay in the end
Always going to be a vocal minority for everything. They're loud and annoying and most people think they're loud and annoying.
So the primary motivation for bringing it up is to troll and annoy people, right? Rather than being for any semblance of a productive reason >_>
Dude, you take this stuff way too seriously. Besides, this rivalry between GSL and KESPA players is probably the best thing that happened in Korea for the SC2 scene.
I'm all for a good, healthy rivalry. What I'm not for is a rivalry in which one side just repeatedly brings up how shitty and outclassed the other side is/will be.
this, and the main thing I'm against is the blatant mod bias that's been happening ever since the elephent thread. Where bans/warning are very liberally handed out for anyone bashing on Bw or defending SC2, while the people bashing SC2 almost never get banned and very rarely even warned. But again sorry for the off topic. Really glad to see JD going through, he's probably the one kespa player I really actually wanna see dominate.
mods here came from sc1. obviously shouldn't be biased at all but think about how they feel towards bw bashing especially.
I understand how they feel, and I agree BW should be given the respect it deserves. Even though I didn't even know there was such a thing as esports or pro gaming till SC2 beta, I've played SC1 since before BW, I remember being in middle school and saving up allowance money to buy BW the day it came out, it was a great game and a part of many peoples childhoods. But it's still very unprofessional of the mods to have the blatant bias that they do, and I really hope it's something that gets fixed.
What I've come to notice is that the mods do, in fact, do a good job. Often times when someone feels they've been dealt injustice, it is really that they are looking at it through tinted glasses. Sometimes the person you think was bashing SC2 was not in fact bashing SC2 at all. When it comes to TL, some bias towards BW is only good. People who were not there to experience BW throughout the years should also remain silent if they don't have anything good to say. BW should always, and I think it always will, have a special place on TL.
But that's exactly what bias is. Telling people who weren't around during BW "well you shouldn't talk." That's the exact problem, and you don't seem to comprehend it. And now if you look there are far more people bashing SC2 as there are bashing BW, yet far more people defending SC2 that get bans/warnings for doing so. That IS bias. Often times when someone feels that something they are involved in (as you are on the BW side of arguments) are fair, they are looking at it through tinted glasses.
I didn't say there is no bias. I said when it comes to TL, some bias towards BW is in fact good. Do you see how easily you misread what I wrote? That is my point exactly. And you say there are far more people bashing SC as there are bashing BW and getting bans/warnings for doing so. I disagree. Now what? Do you have any kind of evidence to support your claim? You are claiming this purely on how you feel, and I dare say you are not the most objective person to make such observations. In reality though, I do not disagree. You might very well be right. But the difference isn't particularly big. Moreover, as I said, some bias is only good. It'll remind people to be respectful of how it all started.
Bias in moderating is NEVER good. I have experienced it often enough and have no desire for it to continue in a community that supposedly strives to be the best SC place to be.
Pity that TL.net is pretty open about giving benefit of the doubt to posters that have been around for a longer period of time. That would be biased moderating, no?
Super impressed with Effort's play. He showed he still has incredible micro, superior to even the best GSL players. IMO Effort will be the top zerg soon, since JD's micro hasn't been showing up for the past few years now. Congrats to the winners!
Dude, you take this stuff way too seriously. Besides, this rivalry between GSL and KESPA players is probably the best thing that happened in Korea for the SC2 scene.
I'm all for a good, healthy rivalry. What I'm not for is a rivalry in which one side just repeatedly brings up how shitty and outclassed the other side is/will be.
this, and the main thing I'm against is the blatant mod bias that's been happening ever since the elephent thread. Where bans/warning are very liberally handed out for anyone bashing on Bw or defending SC2, while the people bashing SC2 almost never get banned and very rarely even warned. But again sorry for the off topic. Really glad to see JD going through, he's probably the one kespa player I really actually wanna see dominate.
mods here came from sc1. obviously shouldn't be biased at all but think about how they feel towards bw bashing especially.
I understand how they feel, and I agree BW should be given the respect it deserves. Even though I didn't even know there was such a thing as esports or pro gaming till SC2 beta, I've played SC1 since before BW, I remember being in middle school and saving up allowance money to buy BW the day it came out, it was a great game and a part of many peoples childhoods. But it's still very unprofessional of the mods to have the blatant bias that they do, and I really hope it's something that gets fixed.
What I've come to notice is that the mods do, in fact, do a good job. Often times when someone feels they've been dealt injustice, it is really that they are looking at it through tinted glasses. Sometimes the person you think was bashing SC2 was not in fact bashing SC2 at all. When it comes to TL, some bias towards BW is only good. People who were not there to experience BW throughout the years should also remain silent if they don't have anything good to say. BW should always, and I think it always will, have a special place on TL.
But that's exactly what bias is. Telling people who weren't around during BW "well you shouldn't talk." That's the exact problem, and you don't seem to comprehend it. And now if you look there are far more people bashing SC2 as there are bashing BW, yet far more people defending SC2 that get bans/warnings for doing so. That IS bias. Often times when someone feels that something they are involved in (as you are on the BW side of arguments) are fair, they are looking at it through tinted glasses.
I didn't say there is no bias. I said when it comes to TL, some bias towards BW is in fact good. Do you see how easily you misread what I wrote? That is my point exactly. And you say there are far more people bashing SC as there are bashing BW and getting bans/warnings for doing so. I disagree. Now what? Do you have any kind of evidence to support your claim? You are claiming this purely on how you feel, and I dare say you are not the most objective person to make such observations. In reality though, I do not disagree. You might very well be right. But the difference isn't particularly big. Moreover, as I said, some bias is only good. It'll remind people to be respectful of how it all started.
Bias in moderating is NEVER good. I have experienced it often enough and have no desire for it to continue in a community that supposedly strives to be the best SC place to be.
Pity that TL.net is pretty open about giving benefit of the doubt to posters that have been around for a longer period of time. That would be biased moderating, no?
You have to take it for what it is guys. Yea TL mods and the like are very, very biased but TL has made not attempts at hiding. They TELL you they're biased, and with that, even if you don't agree with it, even if it makes the least bit sense to EVERYONE else, you just have to accept it. Heck I'd rather have disgustingly biased mods (pretty close anyway lol) than having this forum turn into memedom + insulting everyone every which way.
I'm all for a good, healthy rivalry. What I'm not for is a rivalry in which one side just repeatedly brings up how shitty and outclassed the other side is/will be.
this, and the main thing I'm against is the blatant mod bias that's been happening ever since the elephent thread. Where bans/warning are very liberally handed out for anyone bashing on Bw or defending SC2, while the people bashing SC2 almost never get banned and very rarely even warned. But again sorry for the off topic. Really glad to see JD going through, he's probably the one kespa player I really actually wanna see dominate.
mods here came from sc1. obviously shouldn't be biased at all but think about how they feel towards bw bashing especially.
I understand how they feel, and I agree BW should be given the respect it deserves. Even though I didn't even know there was such a thing as esports or pro gaming till SC2 beta, I've played SC1 since before BW, I remember being in middle school and saving up allowance money to buy BW the day it came out, it was a great game and a part of many peoples childhoods. But it's still very unprofessional of the mods to have the blatant bias that they do, and I really hope it's something that gets fixed.
What I've come to notice is that the mods do, in fact, do a good job. Often times when someone feels they've been dealt injustice, it is really that they are looking at it through tinted glasses. Sometimes the person you think was bashing SC2 was not in fact bashing SC2 at all. When it comes to TL, some bias towards BW is only good. People who were not there to experience BW throughout the years should also remain silent if they don't have anything good to say. BW should always, and I think it always will, have a special place on TL.
But that's exactly what bias is. Telling people who weren't around during BW "well you shouldn't talk." That's the exact problem, and you don't seem to comprehend it. And now if you look there are far more people bashing SC2 as there are bashing BW, yet far more people defending SC2 that get bans/warnings for doing so. That IS bias. Often times when someone feels that something they are involved in (as you are on the BW side of arguments) are fair, they are looking at it through tinted glasses.
I didn't say there is no bias. I said when it comes to TL, some bias towards BW is in fact good. Do you see how easily you misread what I wrote? That is my point exactly. And you say there are far more people bashing SC as there are bashing BW and getting bans/warnings for doing so. I disagree. Now what? Do you have any kind of evidence to support your claim? You are claiming this purely on how you feel, and I dare say you are not the most objective person to make such observations. In reality though, I do not disagree. You might very well be right. But the difference isn't particularly big. Moreover, as I said, some bias is only good. It'll remind people to be respectful of how it all started.
Bias in moderating is NEVER good. I have experienced it often enough and have no desire for it to continue in a community that supposedly strives to be the best SC place to be.
Pity that TL.net is pretty open about giving benefit of the doubt to posters that have been around for a longer period of time. That would be biased moderating, no?
You have to take it for what it is guys. Yea TL mods and the like are very, very biased but TL has made not attempts at hiding. They TELL you they're biased, and with that, even if you don't agree with it, even if it makes the least bit sense to EVERYONE else, you just have to accept it. Heck I'd rather have disgustingly biased mods (pretty close anyway lol) than having this forum turn into memedom + insulting everyone every which way.
I'm all for a good, healthy rivalry. What I'm not for is a rivalry in which one side just repeatedly brings up how shitty and outclassed the other side is/will be.
this, and the main thing I'm against is the blatant mod bias that's been happening ever since the elephent thread. Where bans/warning are very liberally handed out for anyone bashing on Bw or defending SC2, while the people bashing SC2 almost never get banned and very rarely even warned. But again sorry for the off topic. Really glad to see JD going through, he's probably the one kespa player I really actually wanna see dominate.
mods here came from sc1. obviously shouldn't be biased at all but think about how they feel towards bw bashing especially.
I understand how they feel, and I agree BW should be given the respect it deserves. Even though I didn't even know there was such a thing as esports or pro gaming till SC2 beta, I've played SC1 since before BW, I remember being in middle school and saving up allowance money to buy BW the day it came out, it was a great game and a part of many peoples childhoods. But it's still very unprofessional of the mods to have the blatant bias that they do, and I really hope it's something that gets fixed.
What I've come to notice is that the mods do, in fact, do a good job. Often times when someone feels they've been dealt injustice, it is really that they are looking at it through tinted glasses. Sometimes the person you think was bashing SC2 was not in fact bashing SC2 at all. When it comes to TL, some bias towards BW is only good. People who were not there to experience BW throughout the years should also remain silent if they don't have anything good to say. BW should always, and I think it always will, have a special place on TL.
But that's exactly what bias is. Telling people who weren't around during BW "well you shouldn't talk." That's the exact problem, and you don't seem to comprehend it. And now if you look there are far more people bashing SC2 as there are bashing BW, yet far more people defending SC2 that get bans/warnings for doing so. That IS bias. Often times when someone feels that something they are involved in (as you are on the BW side of arguments) are fair, they are looking at it through tinted glasses.
I didn't say there is no bias. I said when it comes to TL, some bias towards BW is in fact good. Do you see how easily you misread what I wrote? That is my point exactly. And you say there are far more people bashing SC as there are bashing BW and getting bans/warnings for doing so. I disagree. Now what? Do you have any kind of evidence to support your claim? You are claiming this purely on how you feel, and I dare say you are not the most objective person to make such observations. In reality though, I do not disagree. You might very well be right. But the difference isn't particularly big. Moreover, as I said, some bias is only good. It'll remind people to be respectful of how it all started.
Bias in moderating is NEVER good. I have experienced it often enough and have no desire for it to continue in a community that supposedly strives to be the best SC place to be.
Pity that TL.net is pretty open about giving benefit of the doubt to posters that have been around for a longer period of time. That would be biased moderating, no?
You have to take it for what it is guys. Yea TL mods and the like are very, very biased but TL has made not attempts at hiding. They TELL you they're biased, and with that, even if you don't agree with it, even if it makes the least bit sense to EVERYONE else, you just have to accept it. Heck I'd rather have disgustingly biased mods (pretty close anyway lol) than having this forum turn into memedom + insulting everyone every which way.
It already is turning that way except 1 difference. There is a 1way street of said insults + memes. Hell with their own article they promoted it that way.
How is this Elephant-worthy? They're in the LOSER'S BRACKET. That means, assuming the tournament is indicative of skill, they're in the worst half of the WCS.
On August 15 2012 12:30 Acritter wrote: How is this Elephant-worthy? They're in the LOSER'S BRACKET. That means, assuming the tournament is indicative of skill, they're in the worst half of the WCS.
Elephant doesn't necessarily mean they go on a dominating rampage. Elephant is the symbolization of KeSPA players > GOMTV players.
GOMTV players have had 3 years head start of these guys but these guys are beating them. Not to mention they still have to practice BW from time to time. It's basically indicative of what KeSPA players are capable of.
The game had a lot of shakes and turns. It seems that when KeSPA players go up against GSL players, the KeSPA players have the advantage. GSL players' burden of losing to KeSPA players is heavy so if it goes all the way to the third game, that burden gets even heavier. In my case, I was able to play peacefully so I think I was able to make a comeback.
Jaedong is so cool. Oh, and @ Seeker above. The idea behind the elephant thing was that the play we see from SC2 pros is a farce because it is nowhere near the level of play that the top BW players would bring. Obviously when 200 new people, including some very talented ones, start playing a new game, many will be competitive. The article is dumb because I think we can agree that TBLS isn't going to singlehandedly bring the game to new heights.
The game had a lot of shakes and turns. It seems that when KeSPA players go up against GSL players, the KeSPA players have the advantage. GSL players' burden of losing to KeSPA players is heavy so if it goes all the way to the third game, that burden gets even heavier. In my case, I was able to play peacefully so I think I was able to make a comeback.
Jaedong is so cool. Oh, and @ Seeker above. The idea behind the elephant thing was that the play we see from SC2 pros is a farce because it is nowhere near the level of play that the top BW players would bring. Obviously when 200 new people, including some very talented ones, start playing a new game, many will be competitive. The article is dumb because I think we can agree that TBLS isn't going to singlehandedly bring the game to new heights.
On August 15 2012 14:14 rysecake wrote: ^that's actually one thing I don't agree on yet
I'm fine with people supporting the "elephant" idea to a degree if they realize that it's not about how in a year, there will be no GSL players left. That said, would you agree that the article was silly for how much it downplayed the skill of current top SC2 players, and even if, say, Jaedong becomes the best player in the world, that doesn't show that the play before him was a "farce"?
On August 15 2012 14:14 rysecake wrote: ^that's actually one thing I don't agree on yet
I'm fine with people supporting the "elephant" idea to a degree if they realize that it's not about how in a year, there will be no GSL players left. That said, would you agree that the article was silly for how much it downplayed the skill of current top SC2 players, and even if, say, Jaedong becomes the best player in the world, that doesn't show that the play before him was a "farce"?
Nah I would never say no gsl players left. That's just silly. But kespa players rising to the top is something that I see happening.
On August 15 2012 09:22 opterown wrote: Well, StorkHwaiting is gone, that's about half of the combative BW posts LR thread yesterday almost got ugly but turned out okay in the end
Always going to be a vocal minority for everything. They're loud and annoying and most people think they're loud and annoying.
I feel like this Squeegy guy is StorkHwaiting's alt trying to tone it down a little bit, he exudes that need for attention and agreement.
elephant bla bla bla We should just be happy about the fact that we got a big bunch of new talented SC2 players out there who bring a lot of fans/fangirls/publicity to the scene
On August 15 2012 14:14 rysecake wrote: ^that's actually one thing I don't agree on yet
I'm fine with people supporting the "elephant" idea to a degree if they realize that it's not about how in a year, there will be no GSL players left. That said, would you agree that the article was silly for how much it downplayed the skill of current top SC2 players, and even if, say, Jaedong becomes the best player in the world, that doesn't show that the play before him was a "farce"?
Most admit that back when the article was written the level of play was pretty bad. For some reason people don't seem to be able to put two and two together. They will post "Oh the article is a pile of crap" and then post "the skill level back then was so bad" right afterwards. That the games these days are much more entertaining than back then.
At the time of the writing of the article, the average skill level of the players was a farce, I've seen hundreds of posts saying that the skill level was really bad "back then", the games are much better now than "back then". They are basically saying that the scene back then, was a farce, in lighter terms.
The article is just outdated. It is no longer relevant, the Kespa players arrived very late. Had the top 300 players moved over at the time of the writing of the article, the scene would be completely different today. Not saying that the top 300 players would be the top 300 in sc2, but the scene would look completely different.
On August 15 2012 14:14 rysecake wrote: ^that's actually one thing I don't agree on yet
I'm fine with people supporting the "elephant" idea to a degree if they realize that it's not about how in a year, there will be no GSL players left. That said, would you agree that the article was silly for how much it downplayed the skill of current top SC2 players, and even if, say, Jaedong becomes the best player in the world, that doesn't show that the play before him was a "farce"?
Most admit that back when the article was written the level of play was pretty bad. For some reason people don't seem to be able to put two and two together. They will post "Oh the article is a pile of crap" and then post "the skill level back then was so bad" right afterwards. That the games these days are much more entertaining than back then.
At the time of the writing of the article, the average skill level of the players was a farce, I've seen hundreds of posts saying that the skill level was really bad "back then", the games are much better now than "back then". They are basically saying that the scene back then, was a farce, in lighter terms.
The article is just outdated. It is no longer relevant, the Kespa players arrived very late. Had the top 300 players moved over at the time of the writing of the article, the scene would be completely different today. Not saying that the top 300 players would be the top 300 in sc2, but the scene would look completely different.
Actually if you'll remember to when the article was written, most people and pro players agreed that the article was crap. Artosis Idra and others who were the best foreigners in BW all said the article was crap at the actual time of its writing. Guess what? The article is still crap, and the TL mods are still biased and treat the SC2 posters like red headed step children and the BW posters like privileged spoiled kids who get what they want.
On August 15 2012 14:14 rysecake wrote: ^that's actually one thing I don't agree on yet
I'm fine with people supporting the "elephant" idea to a degree if they realize that it's not about how in a year, there will be no GSL players left. That said, would you agree that the article was silly for how much it downplayed the skill of current top SC2 players, and even if, say, Jaedong becomes the best player in the world, that doesn't show that the play before him was a "farce"?
Most admit that back when the article was written the level of play was pretty bad. For some reason people don't seem to be able to put two and two together. They will post "Oh the article is a pile of crap" and then post "the skill level back then was so bad" right afterwards. That the games these days are much more entertaining than back then.
At the time of the writing of the article, the average skill level of the players was a farce, I've seen hundreds of posts saying that the skill level was really bad "back then", the games are much better now than "back then". They are basically saying that the scene back then, was a farce, in lighter terms.
The article is just outdated. It is no longer relevant, the Kespa players arrived very late. Had the top 300 players moved over at the time of the writing of the article, the scene would be completely different today. Not saying that the top 300 players would be the top 300 in sc2, but the scene would look completely different.
Just because the games today are at a much higher level than at the time the article was written, it doesn't mean that the competition was a farse, it's akin to saying that everyone that came before Flash was a farse, that boxer, july, iloveoov, nada, etc. were all are a farse.
On August 15 2012 12:30 Acritter wrote: How is this Elephant-worthy? They're in the LOSER'S BRACKET. That means, assuming the tournament is indicative of skill, they're in the worst half of the WCS.
Elephant doesn't necessarily mean they go on a dominating rampage. Elephant is the symbolization of KeSPA players > GOMTV players.
GOMTV players have had 3 years head start of these guys but these guys are beating them. Not to mention they still have to practice BW from time to time. It's basically indicative of what KeSPA players are capable of.
Actually dominating after 3 months was exactly what the elephant article said. That's why people were/are mad. No one would have gotten offended or upset if the article said "hey these guys over here play a pretty similar game at a high level, I'd bet they might be pretty good at your game too". The article said 300 of them would dominate in 3 months. And now BW elitists have twisted it so much that people invoke the elephant in what I believe (along with Roro) are the first competitive televised victories EVER of a kespa pro over a GSL pro.
this, and the main thing I'm against is the blatant mod bias that's been happening ever since the elephent thread. Where bans/warning are very liberally handed out for anyone bashing on Bw or defending SC2, while the people bashing SC2 almost never get banned and very rarely even warned. But again sorry for the off topic. Really glad to see JD going through, he's probably the one kespa player I really actually wanna see dominate.
mods here came from sc1. obviously shouldn't be biased at all but think about how they feel towards bw bashing especially.
I understand how they feel, and I agree BW should be given the respect it deserves. Even though I didn't even know there was such a thing as esports or pro gaming till SC2 beta, I've played SC1 since before BW, I remember being in middle school and saving up allowance money to buy BW the day it came out, it was a great game and a part of many peoples childhoods. But it's still very unprofessional of the mods to have the blatant bias that they do, and I really hope it's something that gets fixed.
What I've come to notice is that the mods do, in fact, do a good job. Often times when someone feels they've been dealt injustice, it is really that they are looking at it through tinted glasses. Sometimes the person you think was bashing SC2 was not in fact bashing SC2 at all. When it comes to TL, some bias towards BW is only good. People who were not there to experience BW throughout the years should also remain silent if they don't have anything good to say. BW should always, and I think it always will, have a special place on TL.
But that's exactly what bias is. Telling people who weren't around during BW "well you shouldn't talk." That's the exact problem, and you don't seem to comprehend it. And now if you look there are far more people bashing SC2 as there are bashing BW, yet far more people defending SC2 that get bans/warnings for doing so. That IS bias. Often times when someone feels that something they are involved in (as you are on the BW side of arguments) are fair, they are looking at it through tinted glasses.
I didn't say there is no bias. I said when it comes to TL, some bias towards BW is in fact good. Do you see how easily you misread what I wrote? That is my point exactly. And you say there are far more people bashing SC as there are bashing BW and getting bans/warnings for doing so. I disagree. Now what? Do you have any kind of evidence to support your claim? You are claiming this purely on how you feel, and I dare say you are not the most objective person to make such observations. In reality though, I do not disagree. You might very well be right. But the difference isn't particularly big. Moreover, as I said, some bias is only good. It'll remind people to be respectful of how it all started.
Bias in moderating is NEVER good. I have experienced it often enough and have no desire for it to continue in a community that supposedly strives to be the best SC place to be.
Pity that TL.net is pretty open about giving benefit of the doubt to posters that have been around for a longer period of time. That would be biased moderating, no?
You have to take it for what it is guys. Yea TL mods and the like are very, very biased but TL has made not attempts at hiding. They TELL you they're biased, and with that, even if you don't agree with it, even if it makes the least bit sense to EVERYONE else, you just have to accept it. Heck I'd rather have disgustingly biased mods (pretty close anyway lol) than having this forum turn into memedom + insulting everyone every which way.
It already is turning that way except 1 difference. There is a 1way street of said insults + memes. Hell with their own article they promoted it that way.
Yea I can see your point. However I feel once this whole transition period passes we'll go back to being one big happy family.
On August 15 2012 12:30 Acritter wrote: How is this Elephant-worthy? They're in the LOSER'S BRACKET. That means, assuming the tournament is indicative of skill, they're in the worst half of the WCS.
i thought this aswell lol.
elephant is not relephant if you're in the losers bracket.
On August 15 2012 12:30 Acritter wrote: How is this Elephant-worthy? They're in the LOSER'S BRACKET. That means, assuming the tournament is indicative of skill, they're in the worst half of the WCS.
Elephant doesn't necessarily mean they go on a dominating rampage. Elephant is the symbolization of KeSPA players > GOMTV players.
GOMTV players have had 3 years head start of these guys but these guys are beating them. Not to mention they still have to practice BW from time to time. It's basically indicative of what KeSPA players are capable of.
Yea but that's been debunked by a few sc2 players and sc1 players alike. SURE they're going to say oh we've just been practicing for 3 months as to rid them of the pressure of doing well. However that's not entirely true as people have been saying they've been practicing for much longer than that.
On August 15 2012 14:14 rysecake wrote: ^that's actually one thing I don't agree on yet
I'm fine with people supporting the "elephant" idea to a degree if they realize that it's not about how in a year, there will be no GSL players left. That said, would you agree that the article was silly for how much it downplayed the skill of current top SC2 players, and even if, say, Jaedong becomes the best player in the world, that doesn't show that the play before him was a "farce"?
Most admit that back when the article was written the level of play was pretty bad. For some reason people don't seem to be able to put two and two together. They will post "Oh the article is a pile of crap" and then post "the skill level back then was so bad" right afterwards. That the games these days are much more entertaining than back then.
At the time of the writing of the article, the average skill level of the players was a farce, I've seen hundreds of posts saying that the skill level was really bad "back then", the games are much better now than "back then". They are basically saying that the scene back then, was a farce, in lighter terms.
The article is just outdated. It is no longer relevant, the Kespa players arrived very late. Had the top 300 players moved over at the time of the writing of the article, the scene would be completely different today. Not saying that the top 300 players would be the top 300 in sc2, but the scene would look completely different.
Just because the games today are at a much higher level than at the time the article was written, it doesn't mean that the competition was a farse, it's akin to saying that everyone that came before Flash was a farse, that boxer, july, iloveoov, nada, etc. were all are a farse.
It would be like saying the first/second year of pro-BW was a farce. Most people look back on those years and laugh at how bad everyone was, it was indeed a farce, a mockery compared to the skill level today.
Imagine if someone came out with an article saying the competition was a farce back then, there would probably be an outcry, but looking back at it now, it would probably be true. It is no different for the said elephant article. Sorry but the top player of SC2 today, would absolutely dominate the top players of SC2 back then.
On August 15 2012 14:14 rysecake wrote: ^that's actually one thing I don't agree on yet
I'm fine with people supporting the "elephant" idea to a degree if they realize that it's not about how in a year, there will be no GSL players left. That said, would you agree that the article was silly for how much it downplayed the skill of current top SC2 players, and even if, say, Jaedong becomes the best player in the world, that doesn't show that the play before him was a "farce"?
Most admit that back when the article was written the level of play was pretty bad. For some reason people don't seem to be able to put two and two together. They will post "Oh the article is a pile of crap" and then post "the skill level back then was so bad" right afterwards. That the games these days are much more entertaining than back then.
At the time of the writing of the article, the average skill level of the players was a farce, I've seen hundreds of posts saying that the skill level was really bad "back then", the games are much better now than "back then". They are basically saying that the scene back then, was a farce, in lighter terms.
The article is just outdated. It is no longer relevant, the Kespa players arrived very late. Had the top 300 players moved over at the time of the writing of the article, the scene would be completely different today. Not saying that the top 300 players would be the top 300 in sc2, but the scene would look completely different.
Just because the games today are at a much higher level than at the time the article was written, it doesn't mean that the competition was a farse, it's akin to saying that everyone that came before Flash was a farse, that boxer, july, iloveoov, nada, etc. were all are a farse.
It would be like saying the first/second year of pro-BW was a farce. Most people look back on those years and laugh at how bad everyone was, it was indeed a farce, a mockery compared to the skill level today.
Imagine if someone came out with an article saying the competition was a farce back then, there would probably be an outcry, but looking back at it now, it would probably be true. It is no different for the said elephant article. Sorry but the top player of SC2 today, would absolutely dominate the top players of SC2 back then.
yes but this is true no matter what game you play. the article didn't say 'the competition now is a farce, brb in a few years we'll laugh at how dumb everyone is' the article instead say 'the players at the top now are nothing to what is to come FROM BW pros' at least that was my interpretation. It singled 2 groups and chose to downplay one and praise one. It didn't draw a common ground by saying the play now is terrible, wait for a few years and everyones play will be much better which is what i think you were trying to get at.
On August 15 2012 14:14 rysecake wrote: ^that's actually one thing I don't agree on yet
I'm fine with people supporting the "elephant" idea to a degree if they realize that it's not about how in a year, there will be no GSL players left. That said, would you agree that the article was silly for how much it downplayed the skill of current top SC2 players, and even if, say, Jaedong becomes the best player in the world, that doesn't show that the play before him was a "farce"?
Most admit that back when the article was written the level of play was pretty bad. For some reason people don't seem to be able to put two and two together. They will post "Oh the article is a pile of crap" and then post "the skill level back then was so bad" right afterwards. That the games these days are much more entertaining than back then.
At the time of the writing of the article, the average skill level of the players was a farce, I've seen hundreds of posts saying that the skill level was really bad "back then", the games are much better now than "back then". They are basically saying that the scene back then, was a farce, in lighter terms.
The article is just outdated. It is no longer relevant, the Kespa players arrived very late. Had the top 300 players moved over at the time of the writing of the article, the scene would be completely different today. Not saying that the top 300 players would be the top 300 in sc2, but the scene would look completely different.
Just because the games today are at a much higher level than at the time the article was written, it doesn't mean that the competition was a farse, it's akin to saying that everyone that came before Flash was a farse, that boxer, july, iloveoov, nada, etc. were all are a farse.
It would be like saying the first/second year of pro-BW was a farce. Most people look back on those years and laugh at how bad everyone was, it was indeed a farce, a mockery compared to the skill level today.
Imagine if someone came out with an article saying the competition was a farce back then, there would probably be an outcry, but looking back at it now, it would probably be true. It is no different for the said elephant article. Sorry but the top player of SC2 today, would absolutely dominate the top players of SC2 back then.
yes but this is true no matter what game you play. the article didn't say 'the competition now is a farce, brb in a few years we'll laugh at how dumb everyone is' the article instead say 'the players at the top now are nothing to what is to come FROM BW pros' at least that was my interpretation. It singled 2 groups and chose to downplay one and praise one. It didn't draw a common ground by saying the play now is terrible, wait for a few years and everyones play will be much better which is what i think you were trying to get at.
Actually the article precisely said that the competition was then a farce. That is why it said "the competition thus far has been a farce". You see, that leaves out the option that the competition will not be a farce in the future.
On August 15 2012 14:14 rysecake wrote: ^that's actually one thing I don't agree on yet
I'm fine with people supporting the "elephant" idea to a degree if they realize that it's not about how in a year, there will be no GSL players left. That said, would you agree that the article was silly for how much it downplayed the skill of current top SC2 players, and even if, say, Jaedong becomes the best player in the world, that doesn't show that the play before him was a "farce"?
Most admit that back when the article was written the level of play was pretty bad. For some reason people don't seem to be able to put two and two together. They will post "Oh the article is a pile of crap" and then post "the skill level back then was so bad" right afterwards. That the games these days are much more entertaining than back then.
At the time of the writing of the article, the average skill level of the players was a farce, I've seen hundreds of posts saying that the skill level was really bad "back then", the games are much better now than "back then". They are basically saying that the scene back then, was a farce, in lighter terms.
The article is just outdated. It is no longer relevant, the Kespa players arrived very late. Had the top 300 players moved over at the time of the writing of the article, the scene would be completely different today. Not saying that the top 300 players would be the top 300 in sc2, but the scene would look completely different.
Just because the games today are at a much higher level than at the time the article was written, it doesn't mean that the competition was a farse, it's akin to saying that everyone that came before Flash was a farse, that boxer, july, iloveoov, nada, etc. were all are a farse.
Of course not. That is why Nada's domination of BW was not a farce. You see, there are two conditions that need to be satisfied for it to be the case: the play must be bad and the competition must lack the best players. That is why Nada's domination was not a farce because at the time Nada really was the best. The best RTS gamers there were, were playing BW. Of course in retrospect we can see that the level of play evolved. Just as we see that the level of play in SC2 has evolved. That is why nobody thinks the competition in SC2 is a farce anymore. The point of the elephant, however, was not that the competition was a farce, the elephant in the room was that there are players more talented and hardworking than the top of SC2.
On August 15 2012 14:14 rysecake wrote: ^that's actually one thing I don't agree on yet
I'm fine with people supporting the "elephant" idea to a degree if they realize that it's not about how in a year, there will be no GSL players left. That said, would you agree that the article was silly for how much it downplayed the skill of current top SC2 players, and even if, say, Jaedong becomes the best player in the world, that doesn't show that the play before him was a "farce"?
Most admit that back when the article was written the level of play was pretty bad. For some reason people don't seem to be able to put two and two together. They will post "Oh the article is a pile of crap" and then post "the skill level back then was so bad" right afterwards. That the games these days are much more entertaining than back then.
At the time of the writing of the article, the average skill level of the players was a farce, I've seen hundreds of posts saying that the skill level was really bad "back then", the games are much better now than "back then". They are basically saying that the scene back then, was a farce, in lighter terms.
The article is just outdated. It is no longer relevant, the Kespa players arrived very late. Had the top 300 players moved over at the time of the writing of the article, the scene would be completely different today. Not saying that the top 300 players would be the top 300 in sc2, but the scene would look completely different.
Just because the games today are at a much higher level than at the time the article was written, it doesn't mean that the competition was a farse, it's akin to saying that everyone that came before Flash was a farse, that boxer, july, iloveoov, nada, etc. were all are a farse.
It would be like saying the first/second year of pro-BW was a farce. Most people look back on those years and laugh at how bad everyone was, it was indeed a farce, a mockery compared to the skill level today.
Imagine if someone came out with an article saying the competition was a farce back then, there would probably be an outcry, but looking back at it now, it would probably be true. It is no different for the said elephant article. Sorry but the top player of SC2 today, would absolutely dominate the top players of SC2 back then.
yes but this is true no matter what game you play. the article didn't say 'the competition now is a farce, brb in a few years we'll laugh at how dumb everyone is' the article instead say 'the players at the top now are nothing to what is to come FROM BW pros' at least that was my interpretation. It singled 2 groups and chose to downplay one and praise one. It didn't draw a common ground by saying the play now is terrible, wait for a few years and everyones play will be much better which is what i think you were trying to get at.
Actually the article precisely said that the competition was then a farce. That is why it said "the competition thus far has been a farce". You see, that leaves out the option that the competition will not be a farce in the future.
On August 15 2012 14:14 rysecake wrote: ^that's actually one thing I don't agree on yet
I'm fine with people supporting the "elephant" idea to a degree if they realize that it's not about how in a year, there will be no GSL players left. That said, would you agree that the article was silly for how much it downplayed the skill of current top SC2 players, and even if, say, Jaedong becomes the best player in the world, that doesn't show that the play before him was a "farce"?
Most admit that back when the article was written the level of play was pretty bad. For some reason people don't seem to be able to put two and two together. They will post "Oh the article is a pile of crap" and then post "the skill level back then was so bad" right afterwards. That the games these days are much more entertaining than back then.
At the time of the writing of the article, the average skill level of the players was a farce, I've seen hundreds of posts saying that the skill level was really bad "back then", the games are much better now than "back then". They are basically saying that the scene back then, was a farce, in lighter terms.
The article is just outdated. It is no longer relevant, the Kespa players arrived very late. Had the top 300 players moved over at the time of the writing of the article, the scene would be completely different today. Not saying that the top 300 players would be the top 300 in sc2, but the scene would look completely different.
Just because the games today are at a much higher level than at the time the article was written, it doesn't mean that the competition was a farse, it's akin to saying that everyone that came before Flash was a farse, that boxer, july, iloveoov, nada, etc. were all are a farse.
Of course not. That is why Nada's domination of BW was not a farce. You see, there are two conditions that need to be satisfied for it to be the case: the play must be bad and the competition must lack the best players. That is why Nada's domination was not a farce because at the time Nada really was the best. The best RTS gamers there were, were playing BW. Of course in retrospect we can see that the level of play evolved. Just as we see that the level of play in SC2 has evolved. That is why nobody thinks the competition in SC2 is a farce anymore. The point of the elephant, however, was not that the competition was a farce, the elephant in the room was that there are players more talented and hardworking than the top of SC2.
Must you continue with your attempts at revisionist history? (the elephant article is available for everyone to see, mind you) Why would the article have been written if the intent was so benign as to merely wish to state admiration of Flash's talent and determination as a gamer? The point was that since MC and the like were dominant yet hardly good at Brood War, the competition was a farce. The level of play at the time is never mentioned in the post (from what I remember, sorry if I'm wrong), it's all about the distinct possibility that KeSPA could switch over and simply crush the scene with their superior talent and dedication. That's why it was a farce, because the competition is arbitrarily restricted from having the best players available and they live only by the grace of Flash&co not switching over. (it reminds me of Lance Armstrong saying that the level of competition was kind of pathetic these first few years after he retired, so he would have to come back to grant legitimacy to the competition again)
Almost all the best players of this moment were playing back then as well, (Taeja and MKP participated in the open seasons of GSL..) if it was the players that made it a farce back then it still must be now. If the elephant theory holds, then the next few months are essentially just about waiting a little bit until the KeSPA players have had enough practice in to supplant the GSL scene. Which makes this rivalry not just a friendly one, but a battle of survival where only one can come out on top. (sorry, I watched Hunger Games yesterday)
On August 15 2012 14:14 rysecake wrote: ^that's actually one thing I don't agree on yet
I'm fine with people supporting the "elephant" idea to a degree if they realize that it's not about how in a year, there will be no GSL players left. That said, would you agree that the article was silly for how much it downplayed the skill of current top SC2 players, and even if, say, Jaedong becomes the best player in the world, that doesn't show that the play before him was a "farce"?
Most admit that back when the article was written the level of play was pretty bad. For some reason people don't seem to be able to put two and two together. They will post "Oh the article is a pile of crap" and then post "the skill level back then was so bad" right afterwards. That the games these days are much more entertaining than back then.
At the time of the writing of the article, the average skill level of the players was a farce, I've seen hundreds of posts saying that the skill level was really bad "back then", the games are much better now than "back then". They are basically saying that the scene back then, was a farce, in lighter terms.
The article is just outdated. It is no longer relevant, the Kespa players arrived very late. Had the top 300 players moved over at the time of the writing of the article, the scene would be completely different today. Not saying that the top 300 players would be the top 300 in sc2, but the scene would look completely different.
Just because the games today are at a much higher level than at the time the article was written, it doesn't mean that the competition was a farse, it's akin to saying that everyone that came before Flash was a farse, that boxer, july, iloveoov, nada, etc. were all are a farse.
It would be like saying the first/second year of pro-BW was a farce. Most people look back on those years and laugh at how bad everyone was, it was indeed a farce, a mockery compared to the skill level today.
Imagine if someone came out with an article saying the competition was a farce back then, there would probably be an outcry, but looking back at it now, it would probably be true. It is no different for the said elephant article. Sorry but the top player of SC2 today, would absolutely dominate the top players of SC2 back then.
Hardly a fair comparison, every game during it's infancy will look like a farce. Compare Boxer-era BW to current BW era, it was a joke back then as well compared to now
On August 15 2012 14:14 rysecake wrote: ^that's actually one thing I don't agree on yet
I'm fine with people supporting the "elephant" idea to a degree if they realize that it's not about how in a year, there will be no GSL players left. That said, would you agree that the article was silly for how much it downplayed the skill of current top SC2 players, and even if, say, Jaedong becomes the best player in the world, that doesn't show that the play before him was a "farce"?
Most admit that back when the article was written the level of play was pretty bad. For some reason people don't seem to be able to put two and two together. They will post "Oh the article is a pile of crap" and then post "the skill level back then was so bad" right afterwards. That the games these days are much more entertaining than back then.
At the time of the writing of the article, the average skill level of the players was a farce, I've seen hundreds of posts saying that the skill level was really bad "back then", the games are much better now than "back then". They are basically saying that the scene back then, was a farce, in lighter terms.
The article is just outdated. It is no longer relevant, the Kespa players arrived very late. Had the top 300 players moved over at the time of the writing of the article, the scene would be completely different today. Not saying that the top 300 players would be the top 300 in sc2, but the scene would look completely different.
Actually if you'll remember to when the article was written, most people and pro players agreed that the article was crap. Artosis Idra and others who were the best foreigners in BW all said the article was crap at the actual time of its writing. Guess what? The article is still crap, and the TL mods are still biased and treat the SC2 posters like red headed step children and the BW posters like privileged spoiled kids who get what they want.
Give me an example of when mods have been biased on this topic. Just because your history is full of warnings about this exact subject does not make mods biased.
On August 15 2012 14:14 rysecake wrote: ^that's actually one thing I don't agree on yet
I'm fine with people supporting the "elephant" idea to a degree if they realize that it's not about how in a year, there will be no GSL players left. That said, would you agree that the article was silly for how much it downplayed the skill of current top SC2 players, and even if, say, Jaedong becomes the best player in the world, that doesn't show that the play before him was a "farce"?
Most admit that back when the article was written the level of play was pretty bad. For some reason people don't seem to be able to put two and two together. They will post "Oh the article is a pile of crap" and then post "the skill level back then was so bad" right afterwards. That the games these days are much more entertaining than back then.
At the time of the writing of the article, the average skill level of the players was a farce, I've seen hundreds of posts saying that the skill level was really bad "back then", the games are much better now than "back then". They are basically saying that the scene back then, was a farce, in lighter terms.
The article is just outdated. It is no longer relevant, the Kespa players arrived very late. Had the top 300 players moved over at the time of the writing of the article, the scene would be completely different today. Not saying that the top 300 players would be the top 300 in sc2, but the scene would look completely different.
Just because the games today are at a much higher level than at the time the article was written, it doesn't mean that the competition was a farse, it's akin to saying that everyone that came before Flash was a farse, that boxer, july, iloveoov, nada, etc. were all are a farse.
It would be like saying the first/second year of pro-BW was a farce. Most people look back on those years and laugh at how bad everyone was, it was indeed a farce, a mockery compared to the skill level today.
Imagine if someone came out with an article saying the competition was a farce back then, there would probably be an outcry, but looking back at it now, it would probably be true. It is no different for the said elephant article. Sorry but the top player of SC2 today, would absolutely dominate the top players of SC2 back then.
yes but this is true no matter what game you play. the article didn't say 'the competition now is a farce, brb in a few years we'll laugh at how dumb everyone is' the article instead say 'the players at the top now are nothing to what is to come FROM BW pros' at least that was my interpretation. It singled 2 groups and chose to downplay one and praise one. It didn't draw a common ground by saying the play now is terrible, wait for a few years and everyones play will be much better which is what i think you were trying to get at.
Actually the article precisely said that the competition was then a farce. That is why it said "the competition thus far has been a farce". You see, that leaves out the option that the competition will not be a farce in the future.
On August 15 2012 15:03 IshinShishi wrote:
On August 15 2012 14:41 sluggaslamoo wrote:
On August 15 2012 14:28 Gorlin wrote:
On August 15 2012 14:14 rysecake wrote: ^that's actually one thing I don't agree on yet
I'm fine with people supporting the "elephant" idea to a degree if they realize that it's not about how in a year, there will be no GSL players left. That said, would you agree that the article was silly for how much it downplayed the skill of current top SC2 players, and even if, say, Jaedong becomes the best player in the world, that doesn't show that the play before him was a "farce"?
Most admit that back when the article was written the level of play was pretty bad. For some reason people don't seem to be able to put two and two together. They will post "Oh the article is a pile of crap" and then post "the skill level back then was so bad" right afterwards. That the games these days are much more entertaining than back then.
At the time of the writing of the article, the average skill level of the players was a farce, I've seen hundreds of posts saying that the skill level was really bad "back then", the games are much better now than "back then". They are basically saying that the scene back then, was a farce, in lighter terms.
The article is just outdated. It is no longer relevant, the Kespa players arrived very late. Had the top 300 players moved over at the time of the writing of the article, the scene would be completely different today. Not saying that the top 300 players would be the top 300 in sc2, but the scene would look completely different.
Just because the games today are at a much higher level than at the time the article was written, it doesn't mean that the competition was a farse, it's akin to saying that everyone that came before Flash was a farse, that boxer, july, iloveoov, nada, etc. were all are a farse.
Of course not. That is why Nada's domination of BW was not a farce. You see, there are two conditions that need to be satisfied for it to be the case: the play must be bad and the competition must lack the best players. That is why Nada's domination was not a farce because at the time Nada really was the best. The best RTS gamers there were, were playing BW. Of course in retrospect we can see that the level of play evolved. Just as we see that the level of play in SC2 has evolved. That is why nobody thinks the competition in SC2 is a farce anymore. The point of the elephant, however, was not that the competition was a farce, the elephant in the room was that there are players more talented and hardworking than the top of SC2.
Must you continue with your attempts at revisionist history? (the elephant article is available for everyone to see, mind you) Why would the article have been written if the intent was so benign as to merely wish to state admiration of Flash's talent and determination as a gamer? The point was that since MC and the like were dominant yet hardly good at Brood War, the competition was a farce. The level of play at the time is never mentioned in the post (from what I remember, sorry if I'm wrong), it's all about the distinct possibility that KeSPA could switch over and simply crush the scene with their superior talent and dedication. That's why it was a farce, because the competition is arbitrarily restricted from having the best players available and they live only by the grace of Flash&co not switching over.
Almost all the best players of this moment were playing back then as well, (Taeja and MKP participated in the open seasons of GSL..) if it was the players that made it a farce back then it still must be now. If the elephant theory holds, then the next few months are essentially just about waiting a little bit until the KeSPA players have had enough practice in to supplant the GSL scene. Which makes this rivalry not just a friendly one, but a battle of survival where only one can come out on top. (sorry, I watched Hunger Games yesterday)
I didn't say the article was benign. I entirely agree with you that the article was really mean.
The elephant the article talks about is that the best players have not switched. The tone of the article is so hostile because the level of play was so bad, well, and I suppose annoyance at people praising the MCs and Nesteas so much. It is the combination of these things which resulted in wording such as that the competition has been a farce. If the competition was what it is now, the article could still have been written, with the exact same point, but it would have sounded very different.
Perhaps you are confusing the article elephant in the room with the actual elephant in the room. One of them written in certain context and with specific motivation. The other is the point the article is trying to get through.
On August 15 2012 14:14 rysecake wrote: ^that's actually one thing I don't agree on yet
I'm fine with people supporting the "elephant" idea to a degree if they realize that it's not about how in a year, there will be no GSL players left. That said, would you agree that the article was silly for how much it downplayed the skill of current top SC2 players, and even if, say, Jaedong becomes the best player in the world, that doesn't show that the play before him was a "farce"?
Most admit that back when the article was written the level of play was pretty bad. For some reason people don't seem to be able to put two and two together. They will post "Oh the article is a pile of crap" and then post "the skill level back then was so bad" right afterwards. That the games these days are much more entertaining than back then.
At the time of the writing of the article, the average skill level of the players was a farce, I've seen hundreds of posts saying that the skill level was really bad "back then", the games are much better now than "back then". They are basically saying that the scene back then, was a farce, in lighter terms.
The article is just outdated. It is no longer relevant, the Kespa players arrived very late. Had the top 300 players moved over at the time of the writing of the article, the scene would be completely different today. Not saying that the top 300 players would be the top 300 in sc2, but the scene would look completely different.
Actually if you'll remember to when the article was written, most people and pro players agreed that the article was crap. Artosis Idra and others who were the best foreigners in BW all said the article was crap at the actual time of its writing. Guess what? The article is still crap, and the TL mods are still biased and treat the SC2 posters like red headed step children and the BW posters like privileged spoiled kids who get what they want.
Give me an example of when mods have been biased on this topic. Just because your history is full of warnings about this exact subject does not make mods biased.
On August 15 2012 14:14 rysecake wrote: ^that's actually one thing I don't agree on yet
I'm fine with people supporting the "elephant" idea to a degree if they realize that it's not about how in a year, there will be no GSL players left. That said, would you agree that the article was silly for how much it downplayed the skill of current top SC2 players, and even if, say, Jaedong becomes the best player in the world, that doesn't show that the play before him was a "farce"?
Most admit that back when the article was written the level of play was pretty bad. For some reason people don't seem to be able to put two and two together. They will post "Oh the article is a pile of crap" and then post "the skill level back then was so bad" right afterwards. That the games these days are much more entertaining than back then.
At the time of the writing of the article, the average skill level of the players was a farce, I've seen hundreds of posts saying that the skill level was really bad "back then", the games are much better now than "back then". They are basically saying that the scene back then, was a farce, in lighter terms.
The article is just outdated. It is no longer relevant, the Kespa players arrived very late. Had the top 300 players moved over at the time of the writing of the article, the scene would be completely different today. Not saying that the top 300 players would be the top 300 in sc2, but the scene would look completely different.
Just because the games today are at a much higher level than at the time the article was written, it doesn't mean that the competition was a farse, it's akin to saying that everyone that came before Flash was a farse, that boxer, july, iloveoov, nada, etc. were all are a farse.
It would be like saying the first/second year of pro-BW was a farce. Most people look back on those years and laugh at how bad everyone was, it was indeed a farce, a mockery compared to the skill level today.
Imagine if someone came out with an article saying the competition was a farce back then, there would probably be an outcry, but looking back at it now, it would probably be true. It is no different for the said elephant article. Sorry but the top player of SC2 today, would absolutely dominate the top players of SC2 back then.
yes but this is true no matter what game you play. the article didn't say 'the competition now is a farce, brb in a few years we'll laugh at how dumb everyone is' the article instead say 'the players at the top now are nothing to what is to come FROM BW pros' at least that was my interpretation. It singled 2 groups and chose to downplay one and praise one. It didn't draw a common ground by saying the play now is terrible, wait for a few years and everyones play will be much better which is what i think you were trying to get at.
Actually the article precisely said that the competition was then a farce. That is why it said "the competition thus far has been a farce". You see, that leaves out the option that the competition will not be a farce in the future.
On August 15 2012 15:03 IshinShishi wrote:
On August 15 2012 14:41 sluggaslamoo wrote:
On August 15 2012 14:28 Gorlin wrote:
On August 15 2012 14:14 rysecake wrote: ^that's actually one thing I don't agree on yet
I'm fine with people supporting the "elephant" idea to a degree if they realize that it's not about how in a year, there will be no GSL players left. That said, would you agree that the article was silly for how much it downplayed the skill of current top SC2 players, and even if, say, Jaedong becomes the best player in the world, that doesn't show that the play before him was a "farce"?
Most admit that back when the article was written the level of play was pretty bad. For some reason people don't seem to be able to put two and two together. They will post "Oh the article is a pile of crap" and then post "the skill level back then was so bad" right afterwards. That the games these days are much more entertaining than back then.
At the time of the writing of the article, the average skill level of the players was a farce, I've seen hundreds of posts saying that the skill level was really bad "back then", the games are much better now than "back then". They are basically saying that the scene back then, was a farce, in lighter terms.
The article is just outdated. It is no longer relevant, the Kespa players arrived very late. Had the top 300 players moved over at the time of the writing of the article, the scene would be completely different today. Not saying that the top 300 players would be the top 300 in sc2, but the scene would look completely different.
Just because the games today are at a much higher level than at the time the article was written, it doesn't mean that the competition was a farse, it's akin to saying that everyone that came before Flash was a farse, that boxer, july, iloveoov, nada, etc. were all are a farse.
Of course not. That is why Nada's domination of BW was not a farce. You see, there are two conditions that need to be satisfied for it to be the case: the play must be bad and the competition must lack the best players. That is why Nada's domination was not a farce because at the time Nada really was the best. The best RTS gamers there were, were playing BW. Of course in retrospect we can see that the level of play evolved. Just as we see that the level of play in SC2 has evolved. That is why nobody thinks the competition in SC2 is a farce anymore. The point of the elephant, however, was not that the competition was a farce, the elephant in the room was that there are players more talented and hardworking than the top of SC2.
Must you continue with your attempts at revisionist history? (the elephant article is available for everyone to see, mind you) Why would the article have been written if the intent was so benign as to merely wish to state admiration of Flash's talent and determination as a gamer? The point was that since MC and the like were dominant yet hardly good at Brood War, the competition was a farce. The level of play at the time is never mentioned in the post (from what I remember, sorry if I'm wrong), it's all about the distinct possibility that KeSPA could switch over and simply crush the scene with their superior talent and dedication. That's why it was a farce, because the competition is arbitrarily restricted from having the best players available and they live only by the grace of Flash&co not switching over. (it reminds me of Lance Armstrong saying that the level of competition was kind of pathetic these first few years after he retired, so he would have to come back to grant legitimacy to the competition again)
Almost all the best players of this moment were playing back then as well, (Taeja and MKP participated in the open seasons of GSL..) if it was the players that made it a farce back then it still must be now. If the elephant theory holds, then the next few months are essentially just about waiting a little bit until the KeSPA players have had enough practice in to supplant the GSL scene. Which makes this rivalry not just a friendly one, but a battle of survival where only one can come out on top. (sorry, I watched Hunger Games yesterday)
Although, its not just do with the players, the different types of specialist coaches (Zerg coach, Protoss coach, Terran coach, Build order coach, team manager), experienced veteran progamers, the crazy training schedules, in-house rankings, professional practice partners, and the amazing pro houses with maids and chefs and unlimited supply of equipment.
Compare that to the measly teams we had in SC2, where there was a team manager, and a bunch of b-teamers that thought they were practising too hard and wanted breaks, all practising sub optimal hours in someone's basement with little or no structure.
These days the SC2 teams are getting a lot more structure, better sponsors and more coaches, better practice environments, and the lazy/bad players have left. The SC2 teams are halfway through their transition to kespa style teams, and the kespa arrival will most likely be a catalyst because otherwise the players will start to fall behind.
So no, with each passing day, the article becomes more and more irrelevant, if not completely irrelevant already. The actual concept of the elephant in the room though, I guess, is still something to think about and we will see how the kespa players perform once they make a full transition.
On August 15 2012 20:13 sluggaslamoo wrote: So no, with each passing day, the article becomes more and more irrelevant, if not completely irrelevant already. The actual concept of the elephant in the room though, I guess, is still something to think about and we will see how the kespa players perform once they make a full transition.
Wish more people realised this and stop responding to the article as if it was published yesterday. It was written over a year ago and whether or not it was true at the time is irrelevant, as it is definitely no longer true now. Back then the level of SC2 play was often atrocious, and the top SC2 players were Broodwar-rejects that would still be getting crushed by Flash if they hadn't switched. Nowadays the level of SC2 play isn't all that bad (even if it isn't as good as the best of Broodwar), and trying to discuss the top player's broodwar skills is bullshit, as there's not way to tell what level of Broodwar someone like MVP or MC would be playing if they hadn't switched. The time since MVP switched to SC2 is longer than the time it took Jaedong to go from his first Broodwar debut to best player in the world. It's interesting to discuss and speculate about how well the KeSPA players will do compared to the established SC2 players, and the elephant is a nice symbol of the side that argues that the top KeSPA players are simply more talented and have a better training environment than everyone else and will thus rise to the top. But the original article is dated and people shouldn't keep dragging it out into discussion of the current SC2 scene.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/BAyxS.jpg)
Team 8_Jaedong![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/2rj8n.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/f4rIY.jpg)
CJ Entus_herO[jOin]![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/nskr9.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/6MpDz.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/OhyEs.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/F45OF.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/Krisdog/Krisdog1104/Krisdog110400018/9326220-the-democrat-and-republican-symbols-of-a-donkey-and-elephant-facing-off.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://redalertpolitics.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Donkey-Elephant-USA.jpg)
