EPTOn July 26 2012 05:11 eNtitY~ wrote:
This is pretty crazy, if it works on workers too hmm..
This is pretty crazy, if it works on workers too hmm..
you just blew my mind
[DISCOVERY] 2x high templar feedback - older dies - Page 6
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hpTheGreat
United States173 Posts
you just blew my mind | ||
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JacobShock
Denmark2485 Posts
On July 26 2012 07:28 Mestru wrote: But Ghosts vs High Templars are quite often in TvP. It affects them too Do ghost and templar have the same range? | ||
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Mestru
Poland10 Posts
No, but snipe takes additional time to prepare before shotting. It's timed properly. | ||
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NB
Netherlands12045 Posts
About the topic: not only queue order is a given, there is also network environment to take in hand. If i send a command from US East to Korea sever, it will be much slower than a guy sending a same command from Korea itself. Given that we have a method to sync up our action, the data procession time will be different along with our computer specs etc... To much random element and the lack of LAN environment simply make the problem inconclusive. Pretty much /thread | ||
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Yoduh
United States216 Posts
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ZeromuS
Canada13426 Posts
On July 26 2012 08:18 ZenithM wrote: It kinda isn't, EMP is a projectile and has more casting range than feedback as well as AoE. So basically you'll always manage to shoot the projectile. Feedback is instant so in the time the EMP is traveling air, you can land the feedback if you're close enough to the ghost. To sum it up, if the two casters cast at the same time, both can land and it's not really up to luck or production date for that matter. This shit only affect instant spells/attacks with exactly the same range. No, actually, younger templar will feedback first if both units have a queued attack and then with no energy they dont get sniped As it is, a single younger ghost will get one snipe off for sure on the templar in the case of snipe before they are hit by feedback. | ||
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Infernal_dream
United States2359 Posts
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Ahli
Germany355 Posts
On July 26 2012 07:48 GodZo wrote: so bad, the first that make ghost or templar win the battle? Oo I just made some tests with the editor. There is a randomness in the ghost vs HT battle. I tested ghost's snipe versus HT's feedback. Snipe has 1 range more, but a cast time of 0.5 seconds (= duration before spell effect (damage) is executed). So the mechanics behind the spells are different as snipe is no instant effect spell. In HT vs HT the order of the units checked for their ingame ability execution is applied which has been proofed by the OP. The OP's rule should/might be true for snipe vs snipe. In my tests I used triggers to create and order the units. First I gave both players full map vision, then I created one unit, waited, created the second unit, waited, ordered both to use the spells on each other. My results are that it depends on the unit's distance when they get the order. At first the ghost might always lose to the HT, but altering one factor changed the outcome. If I moved the ghost's spawnpoint slightly more left or right, it started to damage the HT on some points which means snipe was successfully casted before the feedback killed the ghost. So the distance had a factor in the result of the battle. -> Altering the spawning order had no effect on the result. -> Ghost snipe vs HT feedback is kind of random as it depends on the distance. BUT the distances in which one spell is executed before the other one might not be equally distributed (-> not 50%). So you might end up with a result of 70 to 30% for one unit to win the battle. But maybe it's 60 to 40, maybe it's 90 to 10... -> FURTHER testings are required! I tested this in 1.4.4 with multi dependency. So all balance changes should have been applied. In a short test in 1.5 the ghost never dealt damage to the HT, but I didn't alter the spawnpoints. I noticed that the distance could be a factor as the ghost dealt damage in my 1.4.4 test attempt (which contains the balance changes). To make a good test for the distances I need an example of the area in which the ghost are and where the HTs are when they both receive their order to use their ability on each other. TIME FOR A MASSIVE SCALE TEST with random distances: In the new test I would create an area in which I would spawn the units on a random position within the area. Then I would order both to use their spell on each other. In the end I would try to run the test a lot of times on the map at once and test it over and over with random points. In the end we might have a good idea which unit has how big chances to win. Since I want results now I just made a test map for that. Settings: - Every unit spawns in a random circular area. - The area has a radius of 3. - The distance between the center points of each area is 17. - Ghost and Templar have each 50% chance to spawn first (random integer between 0 and 1). - Fight is always approximated west vs east. - West unit is always created first. (But west unit's type is random.) - Both units receive their order at the same time. Result: ![[image loading]](http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/2880/screenshot2012072602335.jpg) Templar has a win chance of approx 56% versus ghost snipe in 1.4.4 in these test settings. But they might be flawed as both units spawn in circular areas. It's possible to get some stable results for the templar win percentage within a short duration with my test map. If you want me to alter the test or add some features for it to make it a useful tool for battle.net, just ask (PM me). edit: After setting the east unit's area to 0 (= always same spawnpoint), the templar's winrate was 53%. Using a cicular area still might be a problem as the distance isn't evenly distributed. next test: Now I'm using points for both units. The west unit has a random x-offset. It is now created with a random distance of 12.0 - 17.0. The result is 53% as seen in the next screenshot. ![[image loading]](http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/3058/screenshot2012072602573.jpg) => Templar has a win chance of approx 53% versus ghost snipe in 1.4.4. edit: - Changing the random distance to 12.0 - 16.0 results in the same win chance for the HT. - Changing the random distance to 12.0 - 15.0 results in the same win chance for the HT. This was only a test with west vs east. Maybe it's different in north vs south or in north-west vs south-east. ~ Ahli | ||
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nanaoei
3358 Posts
for obvious reasons, no. i don't see how this is any different than when you try to feedback (wth say an observer hovering over a terran's ghosts and you queue up some feedback uses) and end up getting sniped a couple times before it goes off. snipe simply has a longer range than most abilities, including feedback. unless you have some evidence (with this new discovery i mean) i really doubt that a fresh templar gets priority over a direct-snipe that has a longer spell-cast range. how does this affect units attacking each other (at the same time) at all? where do you even jump to that idea/conclusion ? | ||
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
That advantage is infinitesimally small when compared with the comparatively huge effect of random attack delay but it IS there. It may only translate to winning an extra 1v1 worker vs worker battle once in every 10,000 times, or every 100,000 games or whatever, but it is still an advantage. Its just not a significant one. | ||
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Yoduh
United States216 Posts
On July 26 2012 09:49 Lightspeaker wrote: In fairness to people saying about workers: it DOES still provide an advantage. That advantage is infinitesimally small when compared with the comparatively huge effect of random attack delay but it IS there. It may only translate to winning an extra 1v1 worker vs worker battle once in every 10,000 times, or every 100,000 games or whatever, but it is still an advantage. Its just not a significant one. and how do you know this? as far as we know this is a mechanic only active in spell vs. spell calculations. normal attacks might just omit this completely. to say you know for sure you would have to prove it and run 10,000 1v1 worker battles and get some statistics going. | ||
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ZeromuS
Canada13426 Posts
On July 26 2012 09:49 Lightspeaker wrote: In fairness to people saying about workers: it DOES still provide an advantage. That advantage is infinitesimally small when compared with the comparatively huge effect of random attack delay but it IS there. It may only translate to winning an extra 1v1 worker vs worker battle once in every 10,000 times, or every 100,000 games or whatever, but it is still an advantage. Its just not a significant one. Its only important in mirrors anyway since the way drones v probes v scvs works is impacted more by race than anything. Natural regen of Drones and higher HP of SCVs comes to mind. | ||
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nanaoei
3358 Posts
i'd love for there to be other finds but as is, the only thing proven is what's posted in the OP currently | ||
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dafunk
France521 Posts
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DMKraft
476 Posts
Edit: I guess we all get slower as we get older. | ||
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QuantumChaos
Canada37 Posts
http://drop.sc/227785 new SCV killed by original SCV http://drop.sc/227786 First built SCV kills Second built SCV, then third built SCV kills original SCV. | ||
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Ahli
Germany355 Posts
On July 26 2012 10:15 QuantumChaos wrote: Just tried it with SCVs, built 2 SCVs and fought them, the older one killed the younger one. Then took a new one I had built and put it against one of my original 6, and the older one died. In another test, the original SCV killed the new SCV. http://drop.sc/227785 new SCV killed by original SCV http://drop.sc/227786 First built SCV kills Second built SCV, then third built SCV kills original SCV. Weapons have random wait times as already mention a dozen of times. It would require an automatic test map to test that. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On July 26 2012 09:28 ZeromuS wrote: No, actually, younger templar will feedback first if both units have a queued attack and then with no energy they dont get sniped As it is, a single younger ghost will get one snipe off for sure on the templar in the case of snipe before they are hit by feedback. Sorry I was talking about EMP vs Feedback and forgot about snipe, but apparently tests reveal that it's close to random so I wouldn't worry too much about that. | ||
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Fyrewolf
United States1533 Posts
On July 26 2012 09:57 Yoduh wrote: and how do you know this? as far as we know this is a mechanic only active in spell vs. spell calculations. normal attacks might just omit this completely. to say you know for sure you would have to prove it and run 10,000 1v1 worker battles and get some statistics going. It's not a mechanic, it's just the effect of SC2 using in order processing for all actions that get executed. The younger unit ends up higher in the list of actions that the game processes, it doesn't do any actions at the same time, but in very quick successions of fractions of a second, which is also why SC2 can do smart pathing and smart firing. | ||
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
On July 26 2012 09:57 Yoduh wrote: and how do you know this? as far as we know this is a mechanic only active in spell vs. spell calculations. normal attacks might just omit this completely. to say you know for sure you would have to prove it and run 10,000 1v1 worker battles and get some statistics going. Simple deduction, your proposal makes absolutely no sense as far as the actual running of the game goes. To explain...the reason this spellcasting trick works is that the game has to resolve the actions of every single unit somehow. This spellcast test demonstrates how this is done - chronologically, with the youngest given priority. What that action actually IS is irrelevant. You cannot OMIT this because its something that has to be done. Simply put: the game needs instructions for how to resolve the actions of all of the units. This test demonstrates that it does this in chronological reverse order. Unless for some insane reason they've coded different actions to be resolved in different ways which would be more complex and slow the game down. Edit: Fyrewolf summarised it rather nicely above. | ||
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