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[DISCOVERY] 2x high templar feedback - older dies - Page 7

Forum Index > SC2 General
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dNa
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Germany591 Posts
July 26 2012 02:03 GMT
#121
that makes so much more sense...

i realized at one point while playing arround on the unit test map with thor vs thor 250mm strike cannon duels, the left thor nearly always lost... but as i didn't think of them as older/younger but as left/right, i thought that wasn't really worth pursuing.. thanks for actually clearing that up lol.
"a pitchfork is for hay. a trident is for killing bitches." -djwheat
lost_artz
Profile Joined January 2012
United States366 Posts
July 26 2012 06:44 GMT
#122
So..has anyone tried this with siege tanks yet?
lazyitachi
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
1043 Posts
July 26 2012 07:25 GMT
#123
Another thread derailing into know nothings discussing everything.

The op also seem to not know how to do proper hypothesis testing.

not sure what is with all the randoming since the tests will bee much more conclusive without random.
Also it is not possible to issue the command to both units at the same time.

Tl at its best. Lol.
RaiKageRyu
Profile Joined August 2009
Canada4773 Posts
July 26 2012 07:29 GMT
#124
Nice find.
Someone call down the Thunder?
dani`
Profile Joined January 2011
Netherlands2402 Posts
July 26 2012 07:38 GMT
#125
On July 26 2012 16:25 lazyitachi wrote:
Another thread derailing into know nothings discussing everything.

The op also seem to not know how to do proper hypothesis testing.

not sure what is with all the randoming since the tests will bee much more conclusive without random.
Also it is not possible to issue the command to both units at the same time.

Tl at its best. Lol.

Instead of only criticizing people who have put some effort in their investigation - even though you think it's flawed - you might want to enlighten us with your knowledge of how to do it better.

You have a point regarding which units casts Feedback first. I have to admit at points in their video I thought the one who died was always the one who issued the command last. They seemed to have a certain pattern in their tests such that whichever HT they thought would win would always begin with casting the spell. However, I also ran some test myself and this does not seem to matter.

I think the tests are fairly conclusive, but should probably be ran automatically a couple thousand times to show that the newer one indeed wins 100% of the time.
Chantastic
Profile Joined June 2012
86 Posts
July 26 2012 07:41 GMT
#126
On July 26 2012 15:44 lost_artz wrote:
So..has anyone tried this with siege tanks yet?


I doubt there is any real effect with siege tanks.

When sieged, whoever sieges first will get the first, and thus last, shot in. Because you can't move when sieged, there isn't an issue where you'll run into each other and start attacking at the same time.
Nekovivie
Profile Joined October 2011
United Kingdom2599 Posts
July 26 2012 07:46 GMT
#127
I can't even remember the last time I saw HT's feedbacking HT's before today.. so I doubt the implications of this will be groundbreaking.
If you are not supporting K-Pop you are hurting E-Sports.
Infernal_dream
Profile Joined September 2011
United States2359 Posts
July 26 2012 07:50 GMT
#128
On July 26 2012 16:46 Nekovivie wrote:
I can't even remember the last time I saw HT's feedbacking HT's before today.. so I doubt the implications of this will be groundbreaking.


Mostly because storm sucks against protoss due to the mass hp of the units anyways. And that you rely on a lot of melee vs. melee so you'd storm the shit out of your own stuff as well.
Ryuu314
Profile Joined October 2009
United States12679 Posts
July 26 2012 07:54 GMT
#129
Barney was right...Newer is always better. :O
AlanSmithee
Profile Joined May 2012
39 Posts
July 26 2012 08:06 GMT
#130
This finding is very wierd to me.

It's fundamental in game programmnig that all agents are handled with the same priorety each loop.
for example:

agent a cast spell
agent b cast spell

agent a collision detection
agent b collision detection

agent a loose hp
agent b loose hp

By your results the loop would look like

agent a cast spell
agent a collision detection
agent a loose hp

agent b cast spell
agent b collision detection
agent b loose hp

and that would be a very fundamental flaw in the code design.

I doubt it is actually a bug, it must be an active desicion of blizzards part to have it work this way.
I wonder why though, it makes very little sense to me.

And why would they sort their priority-queue baed on how it was added.. Like they are using a stack or something... Efficient but not very dynamic for this kind of a game.. Would love to see their code.

Nice find!
Sandermatt
Profile Joined December 2010
Switzerland1365 Posts
July 26 2012 08:10 GMT
#131
On July 26 2012 16:50 Infernal_dream wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 26 2012 16:46 Nekovivie wrote:
I can't even remember the last time I saw HT's feedbacking HT's before today.. so I doubt the implications of this will be groundbreaking.


Mostly because storm sucks against protoss due to the mass hp of the units anyways. And that you rely on a lot of melee vs. melee so you'd storm the shit out of your own stuff as well.


I think I have seen PvP storms, in a Kespa vs GSL showmatch. I think Ace stromed to Kespa player whos name I forgot (From WJ).
Sandermatt
Profile Joined December 2010
Switzerland1365 Posts
July 26 2012 08:12 GMT
#132
On July 26 2012 16:41 Chantastic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 26 2012 15:44 lost_artz wrote:
So..has anyone tried this with siege tanks yet?


I doubt there is any real effect with siege tanks.

When sieged, whoever sieges first will get the first, and thus last, shot in. Because you can't move when sieged, there isn't an issue where you'll run into each other and start attacking at the same time.


It might be important for workers that approach each other with an attack command. The one who gets the first hit of wins.
scypio
Profile Joined December 2011
Poland2127 Posts
July 26 2012 08:16 GMT
#133
On July 26 2012 09:20 NB wrote:
for a random thread like this there are quite a handsome first post in the front page. Mod definitely should check IP to make sure there is no smurfing involved.


Sigh... Yegwen did his testing on stream with ~250 people watching. Once he was done he said that he's going to write on TL about it and perhaps some of the viewers could share their thoughts on TL too.

And that's the whole conspiracy.
I play random | I like Hots | INnoVation | sOs | Tefel TOP1!
WindWolf
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
Sweden11767 Posts
July 26 2012 08:33 GMT
#134
Interesting find, this could've impact on how the game. Yes it's a detail, but every little detail matter.

Also, Yegwen, have you done some English casts, or do you have any plans to?
EZ4ENCE
kochanfe
Profile Joined July 2011
Micronesia1338 Posts
July 26 2012 08:47 GMT
#135
Well this is truly a monumental discovery!
yeh know, because HTs are so common in PvP...
"The flame that burns twice as bright burns half as long." - Lao Tzu
Roxor9999
Profile Joined December 2011
Netherlands771 Posts
July 26 2012 08:54 GMT
#136
On July 26 2012 17:12 Sandermatt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 26 2012 16:41 Chantastic wrote:
On July 26 2012 15:44 lost_artz wrote:
So..has anyone tried this with siege tanks yet?


I doubt there is any real effect with siege tanks.

When sieged, whoever sieges first will get the first, and thus last, shot in. Because you can't move when sieged, there isn't an issue where you'll run into each other and start attacking at the same time.


It might be important for workers that approach each other with an attack command. The one who gets the first hit of wins.

Random attack delay, will make sure that doesn't happen also that has been said about 15 times before.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
July 26 2012 08:55 GMT
#137
Ah, now I get why I'm always losing mirrormatches... Because my macro is too good!
JyB
Profile Joined January 2012
France466 Posts
July 26 2012 09:00 GMT
#138
On July 26 2012 17:06 AlanSmithee wrote:
This finding is very wierd to me.

It's fundamental in game programmnig that all agents are handled with the same priorety each loop.
for example:

agent a cast spell
agent b cast spell

agent a collision detection
agent b collision detection

agent a loose hp
agent b loose hp

By your results the loop would look like

agent a cast spell
agent a collision detection
agent a loose hp

agent b cast spell
agent b collision detection
agent b loose hp

and that would be a very fundamental flaw in the code design.

I doubt it is actually a bug, it must be an active desicion of blizzards part to have it work this way.
I wonder why though, it makes very little sense to me.

And why would they sort their priority-queue baed on how it was added.. Like they are using a stack or something... Efficient but not very dynamic for this kind of a game.. Would love to see their code.

Nice find!



I think you nailed it. Since those attacks are instantaneous it might just launch it and process the damage right away and not look at the rest of the stack.

I d love to see their code too !
ThePlayer33
Profile Joined October 2011
Australia2378 Posts
July 26 2012 09:04 GMT
#139
so does this work with melee units or not
| Idra | YuGiOh | Leenock | Coca |
Roxor9999
Profile Joined December 2011
Netherlands771 Posts
July 26 2012 09:11 GMT
#140
On July 26 2012 18:04 ThePlayer33 wrote:
so does this work with melee units or not

If you would have read the thread you would've known the answer, no.
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