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On June 18 2012 15:39 Tyrant0 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 14:09 Benjamin99 wrote:On June 18 2012 13:05 0neder wrote:On June 18 2012 12:57 Benjamin99 wrote:
Why dont they use units from warcraft 3? Or Commander & Conquer?. Maybe becuase its a new game? I really dont understand why BW fans keep bitching about starcraft 2. Its not the same game its a new game!
If you dont like it dont play it its very simple! Unfortunately, I don't think your post was a troll attempt, but just to name a few: Blink - from WC3 Concussive shells - from WC3 Hero Units - from WC3 Super long range high supply units - from C&C And I'm not familiar with C&C, but based off what I've heard from TL, apparently most of the new SC2 units and their abilities directly correlate to C&C units, and many of SC2's current deficiencies parallel those of C&C. I like SC2. But LIKE isn't good enough. Ever seen Ratatouille. I don't just want to LIKE SC2. I want to LOVE it. It's not good enough right now to love. If you want to understand the critique, then you need to understand BW. I don't care about Brood War itself, but I love it because it was based on successful principles of game design, competition, and excitement. SC2 needs that complete foundation or it will fizzle fast. You can't just change major league baseball to teeball and say NEW GAME! BE HAPPY! No I dont troll, My point is starcraft 2 got nothing todo with BW just like it got nothing todo with warcraft 3. Yea it might have mechanics and spells that are similar but isnt that becuase the games are made from the same company? I really cant understand why BW fans keep trying to make starcraft 2 into BW. They are not the same just like football and handball arnt the same yea they might both be using a round ball to play the game but thats about it! How can you write this in the same sentence you claim not to be trolling?
Because he honestly believes that they are different games?
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On June 18 2012 15:42 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 15:39 Tyrant0 wrote:On June 18 2012 14:09 Benjamin99 wrote:On June 18 2012 13:05 0neder wrote:On June 18 2012 12:57 Benjamin99 wrote:
Why dont they use units from warcraft 3? Or Commander & Conquer?. Maybe becuase its a new game? I really dont understand why BW fans keep bitching about starcraft 2. Its not the same game its a new game!
If you dont like it dont play it its very simple! Unfortunately, I don't think your post was a troll attempt, but just to name a few: Blink - from WC3 Concussive shells - from WC3 Hero Units - from WC3 Super long range high supply units - from C&C And I'm not familiar with C&C, but based off what I've heard from TL, apparently most of the new SC2 units and their abilities directly correlate to C&C units, and many of SC2's current deficiencies parallel those of C&C. I like SC2. But LIKE isn't good enough. Ever seen Ratatouille. I don't just want to LIKE SC2. I want to LOVE it. It's not good enough right now to love. If you want to understand the critique, then you need to understand BW. I don't care about Brood War itself, but I love it because it was based on successful principles of game design, competition, and excitement. SC2 needs that complete foundation or it will fizzle fast. You can't just change major league baseball to teeball and say NEW GAME! BE HAPPY! No I dont troll, My point is starcraft 2 got nothing todo with BW just like it got nothing todo with warcraft 3. Yea it might have mechanics and spells that are similar but isnt that becuase the games are made from the same company? I really cant understand why BW fans keep trying to make starcraft 2 into BW. They are not the same just like football and handball arnt the same yea they might both be using a round ball to play the game but thats about it! How can you write this in the same sentence you claim not to be trolling? Because he honestly believes that they are different games?
Theres a distinct difference in wording. Believing that they are different games is not the same as the two games having nothing to do with each other.
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On June 18 2012 15:39 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 14:41 Eventine wrote:On June 18 2012 14:10 Xiphos wrote:On June 18 2012 14:09 Benjamin99 wrote:On June 18 2012 13:05 0neder wrote:On June 18 2012 12:57 Benjamin99 wrote:
Why dont they use units from warcraft 3? Or Commander & Conquer?. Maybe becuase its a new game? I really dont understand why BW fans keep bitching about starcraft 2. Its not the same game its a new game!
If you dont like it dont play it its very simple! Unfortunately, I don't think your post was a troll attempt, but just to name a few: Blink - from WC3 Concussive shells - from WC3 Hero Units - from WC3 Super long range high supply units - from C&C And I'm not familiar with C&C, but based off what I've heard from TL, apparently most of the new SC2 units and their abilities directly correlate to C&C units, and many of SC2's current deficiencies parallel those of C&C. I like SC2. But LIKE isn't good enough. Ever seen Ratatouille. I don't just want to LIKE SC2. I want to LOVE it. It's not good enough right now to love. If you want to understand the critique, then you need to understand BW. I don't care about Brood War itself, but I love it because it was based on successful principles of game design, competition, and excitement. SC2 needs that complete foundation or it will fizzle fast. You can't just change major league baseball to teeball and say NEW GAME! BE HAPPY! No I dont troll, My point is starcraft 2 got nothing todo with BW just like it got nothing todo with warcraft 3. Yea it might have mechanics and spells that are similar but isnt that becuase the games are made form the same company? I really cant understand why BW fans keep trying to make starcraft 2 into BW. They are not the same just like football and handball arnt the same yea they might be using a round ball but thats about it! Because we are trying to help. Help who? I'd guess many are quite happy as is. They mean how BW was able to attract so much support in the foreign scene. They mean how BW is outdoing SC2 in Korea in terms of support and broadcasting. Because isn't it obvious? BW was bigger in the foreign scene than SC2 and Kespa prefers BW over SC2 in Korea. We should learn from BW on how to... Wait what? Foreign support of BW was near non-existent and Kespa is switching to SC2? Hmm.... I guess.... What does SC2 have to learn from BW again?
Wow what an insightful and constructive comment. Let's just close this thread because you obviously have everything figured out.
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On June 18 2012 15:43 Tyrant0 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 15:42 lorkac wrote:On June 18 2012 15:39 Tyrant0 wrote:On June 18 2012 14:09 Benjamin99 wrote:On June 18 2012 13:05 0neder wrote:On June 18 2012 12:57 Benjamin99 wrote:
Why dont they use units from warcraft 3? Or Commander & Conquer?. Maybe becuase its a new game? I really dont understand why BW fans keep bitching about starcraft 2. Its not the same game its a new game!
If you dont like it dont play it its very simple! Unfortunately, I don't think your post was a troll attempt, but just to name a few: Blink - from WC3 Concussive shells - from WC3 Hero Units - from WC3 Super long range high supply units - from C&C And I'm not familiar with C&C, but based off what I've heard from TL, apparently most of the new SC2 units and their abilities directly correlate to C&C units, and many of SC2's current deficiencies parallel those of C&C. I like SC2. But LIKE isn't good enough. Ever seen Ratatouille. I don't just want to LIKE SC2. I want to LOVE it. It's not good enough right now to love. If you want to understand the critique, then you need to understand BW. I don't care about Brood War itself, but I love it because it was based on successful principles of game design, competition, and excitement. SC2 needs that complete foundation or it will fizzle fast. You can't just change major league baseball to teeball and say NEW GAME! BE HAPPY! No I dont troll, My point is starcraft 2 got nothing todo with BW just like it got nothing todo with warcraft 3. Yea it might have mechanics and spells that are similar but isnt that becuase the games are made from the same company? I really cant understand why BW fans keep trying to make starcraft 2 into BW. They are not the same just like football and handball arnt the same yea they might both be using a round ball to play the game but thats about it! How can you write this in the same sentence you claim not to be trolling? Because he honestly believes that they are different games? Theres a distinct difference in wording. Believing that they are different games is not the same as the two games having nothing to do with each other.
Ofcourse the games got something todo with eachother but thats mostly becuase of a smart business concept using name recognition to sell a new RTS game to new users and old customers. When I tryed BW it felt so completly different I really felt I was playing a completly new game. And proberly the same thing happend when BW,C&C and warcraft 3 players tryed starcraft 2 for the first time. Im a big fan of RTS games but each game are pretty unique you cant really compare them only thing they got in commen are they are RTS games.
So I stand by my opinion and btw plz refrain from calling me a troll just becuase I dont got the same opinion as others
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On June 18 2012 16:14 Jumperer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 15:59 Benjamin99 wrote:On June 18 2012 15:43 Tyrant0 wrote:On June 18 2012 15:42 lorkac wrote:On June 18 2012 15:39 Tyrant0 wrote:On June 18 2012 14:09 Benjamin99 wrote:On June 18 2012 13:05 0neder wrote:On June 18 2012 12:57 Benjamin99 wrote:
Why dont they use units from warcraft 3? Or Commander & Conquer?. Maybe becuase its a new game? I really dont understand why BW fans keep bitching about starcraft 2. Its not the same game its a new game!
If you dont like it dont play it its very simple! Unfortunately, I don't think your post was a troll attempt, but just to name a few: Blink - from WC3 Concussive shells - from WC3 Hero Units - from WC3 Super long range high supply units - from C&C And I'm not familiar with C&C, but based off what I've heard from TL, apparently most of the new SC2 units and their abilities directly correlate to C&C units, and many of SC2's current deficiencies parallel those of C&C. I like SC2. But LIKE isn't good enough. Ever seen Ratatouille. I don't just want to LIKE SC2. I want to LOVE it. It's not good enough right now to love. If you want to understand the critique, then you need to understand BW. I don't care about Brood War itself, but I love it because it was based on successful principles of game design, competition, and excitement. SC2 needs that complete foundation or it will fizzle fast. You can't just change major league baseball to teeball and say NEW GAME! BE HAPPY! No I dont troll, My point is starcraft 2 got nothing todo with BW just like it got nothing todo with warcraft 3. Yea it might have mechanics and spells that are similar but isnt that becuase the games are made from the same company? I really cant understand why BW fans keep trying to make starcraft 2 into BW. They are not the same just like football and handball arnt the same yea they might both be using a round ball to play the game but thats about it! How can you write this in the same sentence you claim not to be trolling? Because he honestly believes that they are different games? Theres a distinct difference in wording. Believing that they are different games is not the same as the two games having nothing to do with each other. Ofcourse the games got something todo with eachother but thats mostly becuase of a smart business concept using name recognition to sell a new RTS game to new users and old customers. When I tryed BW it felt so completly different I really felt I was playing a completly new game. And proberly the same thing happend when BW,C&C and warcraft 3 players tryed starcraft 2 for the first time. Im a big fan of RTS games but each game are pretty unique you cant really compare them only thing they got in commen are they are RTS games. So I stand by my opinion and btw plz refrain from calling me a troll just becuase I dont got the same opinion as others OH SHIT, I TRIED TO PLAY STARCRAFT AND IT FELT DIFFERENT FROM OTHER RTS GAMES. OTHER PEOPLE MUST FEEL THE SAME WAY I FEEL TOO BECAUSE I AM THE STANDARD HUMAN THEREFORE I AUTOMATICALLY KNOW HOW EVERYONE FEELS. IN CONCLUSION, YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO COMPARE THEM BECAUSE THEY FEEL DIFFERENT. DID I MENTION THAT I'M ALSO A BIG FAN OF RTS GAMES!!!!!! First of all, learn how to type properly. How do you expect people to take you seriously? It's fucking tried, not "tryed" and Yes motherfucker I can compare them as the post below explain. [stolen post from another thread] On May 31 2012 03:01 captainshards wrote: But, a minor rant here, ive noticed so much use of the whole "objective/subjective" argument to validate ANYTHING and ANY opinion online. It seems as if people learn the definitions of those words and run rampant trying to teach the world a lesson in logic. But what never gets said is that sometimes when you use a theory or a concept, its totally great until you realize that life and reality isnt always summed up by theory and concept. There are realities. You can say al day long that there is no right and wrong its all opinion but we are trying to live in a society that functions. A "tool". And a tool can be judged at how good of a tool it is and objectivity/subjectivity loses some of its shine in these types of discussions. You and i both can argue which hammer is better but in the end there is a chance one hammer will break while the other does not. Therefore that is a better hammer. A better tool. Why? Because it does a better job of putting nails in. It doesnt matter opinion, either the nail goes in or does not. One could argue that the elements of BW just happen to have more tendency to create the types of situations that lead to surprise or tension in the average human beings mind. Therefore it is a better tool for that job. If you have two calculators and one gives you back a wrong answer every random 20 calculations that is a worse tool and it doesnt matter what your opinion is because that particular tool is designed to calculate accurately. This is not a point im making to argue for or against BW vs SC2 because i personally dont care anymore which one is better. Nor do i know in the end which game will be "better". Im not even remotely qualified to predict the future of this game. I hoe for it to be better because i like RTS games and i like high level play. I just get tired of "objective/subjective" arguments that are treated as the end all of logic because they arent. A tool can be judged. Arguing which game is better and feeling satisfied that there is no answer is worse for the game than questioning what actually might be better in either one and trying to reach for that goal to make SC2 the best tool it can possibly be to entertain human beings. If you cite subjectivity etc and call it a day you never move beyond that and you never really solve any problems that may exist. The only thing you do that way is feel better about your own opinion.
You are really agressive maybe you should take a chill pill
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On June 18 2012 16:26 Benjamin99 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 16:14 Jumperer wrote:On June 18 2012 15:59 Benjamin99 wrote:On June 18 2012 15:43 Tyrant0 wrote:On June 18 2012 15:42 lorkac wrote:On June 18 2012 15:39 Tyrant0 wrote:On June 18 2012 14:09 Benjamin99 wrote:On June 18 2012 13:05 0neder wrote:On June 18 2012 12:57 Benjamin99 wrote:
Why dont they use units from warcraft 3? Or Commander & Conquer?. Maybe becuase its a new game? I really dont understand why BW fans keep bitching about starcraft 2. Its not the same game its a new game!
If you dont like it dont play it its very simple! Unfortunately, I don't think your post was a troll attempt, but just to name a few: Blink - from WC3 Concussive shells - from WC3 Hero Units - from WC3 Super long range high supply units - from C&C And I'm not familiar with C&C, but based off what I've heard from TL, apparently most of the new SC2 units and their abilities directly correlate to C&C units, and many of SC2's current deficiencies parallel those of C&C. I like SC2. But LIKE isn't good enough. Ever seen Ratatouille. I don't just want to LIKE SC2. I want to LOVE it. It's not good enough right now to love. If you want to understand the critique, then you need to understand BW. I don't care about Brood War itself, but I love it because it was based on successful principles of game design, competition, and excitement. SC2 needs that complete foundation or it will fizzle fast. You can't just change major league baseball to teeball and say NEW GAME! BE HAPPY! No I dont troll, My point is starcraft 2 got nothing todo with BW just like it got nothing todo with warcraft 3. Yea it might have mechanics and spells that are similar but isnt that becuase the games are made from the same company? I really cant understand why BW fans keep trying to make starcraft 2 into BW. They are not the same just like football and handball arnt the same yea they might both be using a round ball to play the game but thats about it! How can you write this in the same sentence you claim not to be trolling? Because he honestly believes that they are different games? Theres a distinct difference in wording. Believing that they are different games is not the same as the two games having nothing to do with each other. Ofcourse the games got something todo with eachother but thats mostly becuase of a smart business concept using name recognition to sell a new RTS game to new users and old customers. When I tryed BW it felt so completly different I really felt I was playing a completly new game. And proberly the same thing happend when BW,C&C and warcraft 3 players tryed starcraft 2 for the first time. Im a big fan of RTS games but each game are pretty unique you cant really compare them only thing they got in commen are they are RTS games. So I stand by my opinion and btw plz refrain from calling me a troll just becuase I dont got the same opinion as others OH SHIT, I TRIED TO PLAY STARCRAFT AND IT FELT DIFFERENT FROM OTHER RTS GAMES. OTHER PEOPLE MUST FEEL THE SAME WAY I FEEL TOO BECAUSE I AM THE STANDARD HUMAN THEREFORE I AUTOMATICALLY KNOW HOW EVERYONE FEELS. IN CONCLUSION, YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO COMPARE THEM BECAUSE THEY FEEL DIFFERENT. DID I MENTION THAT I'M ALSO A BIG FAN OF RTS GAMES!!!!!! First of all, learn how to type properly. How do you expect people to take you seriously? It's fucking tried, not "tryed" and Yes motherfucker I can compare them as the post below explain. [stolen post from another thread] On May 31 2012 03:01 captainshards wrote: But, a minor rant here, ive noticed so much use of the whole "objective/subjective" argument to validate ANYTHING and ANY opinion online. It seems as if people learn the definitions of those words and run rampant trying to teach the world a lesson in logic. But what never gets said is that sometimes when you use a theory or a concept, its totally great until you realize that life and reality isnt always summed up by theory and concept. There are realities. You can say al day long that there is no right and wrong its all opinion but we are trying to live in a society that functions. A "tool". And a tool can be judged at how good of a tool it is and objectivity/subjectivity loses some of its shine in these types of discussions. You and i both can argue which hammer is better but in the end there is a chance one hammer will break while the other does not. Therefore that is a better hammer. A better tool. Why? Because it does a better job of putting nails in. It doesnt matter opinion, either the nail goes in or does not. One could argue that the elements of BW just happen to have more tendency to create the types of situations that lead to surprise or tension in the average human beings mind. Therefore it is a better tool for that job. If you have two calculators and one gives you back a wrong answer every random 20 calculations that is a worse tool and it doesnt matter what your opinion is because that particular tool is designed to calculate accurately. This is not a point im making to argue for or against BW vs SC2 because i personally dont care anymore which one is better. Nor do i know in the end which game will be "better". Im not even remotely qualified to predict the future of this game. I hoe for it to be better because i like RTS games and i like high level play. I just get tired of "objective/subjective" arguments that are treated as the end all of logic because they arent. A tool can be judged. Arguing which game is better and feeling satisfied that there is no answer is worse for the game than questioning what actually might be better in either one and trying to reach for that goal to make SC2 the best tool it can possibly be to entertain human beings. If you cite subjectivity etc and call it a day you never move beyond that and you never really solve any problems that may exist. The only thing you do that way is feel better about your own opinion. You are really agressive maybe you should take a chill pill
I predict the forums are going to be a less pleasurable place to be around for the next several months.
I miss when people just complained that forcefields were op.
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10387 Posts
On June 18 2012 16:26 Benjamin99 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 16:14 Jumperer wrote:On June 18 2012 15:59 Benjamin99 wrote:On June 18 2012 15:43 Tyrant0 wrote:On June 18 2012 15:42 lorkac wrote:On June 18 2012 15:39 Tyrant0 wrote:On June 18 2012 14:09 Benjamin99 wrote:On June 18 2012 13:05 0neder wrote:On June 18 2012 12:57 Benjamin99 wrote:
Why dont they use units from warcraft 3? Or Commander & Conquer?. Maybe becuase its a new game? I really dont understand why BW fans keep bitching about starcraft 2. Its not the same game its a new game!
If you dont like it dont play it its very simple! Unfortunately, I don't think your post was a troll attempt, but just to name a few: Blink - from WC3 Concussive shells - from WC3 Hero Units - from WC3 Super long range high supply units - from C&C And I'm not familiar with C&C, but based off what I've heard from TL, apparently most of the new SC2 units and their abilities directly correlate to C&C units, and many of SC2's current deficiencies parallel those of C&C. I like SC2. But LIKE isn't good enough. Ever seen Ratatouille. I don't just want to LIKE SC2. I want to LOVE it. It's not good enough right now to love. If you want to understand the critique, then you need to understand BW. I don't care about Brood War itself, but I love it because it was based on successful principles of game design, competition, and excitement. SC2 needs that complete foundation or it will fizzle fast. You can't just change major league baseball to teeball and say NEW GAME! BE HAPPY! No I dont troll, My point is starcraft 2 got nothing todo with BW just like it got nothing todo with warcraft 3. Yea it might have mechanics and spells that are similar but isnt that becuase the games are made from the same company? I really cant understand why BW fans keep trying to make starcraft 2 into BW. They are not the same just like football and handball arnt the same yea they might both be using a round ball to play the game but thats about it! How can you write this in the same sentence you claim not to be trolling? Because he honestly believes that they are different games? Theres a distinct difference in wording. Believing that they are different games is not the same as the two games having nothing to do with each other. Ofcourse the games got something todo with eachother but thats mostly becuase of a smart business concept using name recognition to sell a new RTS game to new users and old customers. When I tryed BW it felt so completly different I really felt I was playing a completly new game. And proberly the same thing happend when BW,C&C and warcraft 3 players tryed starcraft 2 for the first time. Im a big fan of RTS games but each game are pretty unique you cant really compare them only thing they got in commen are they are RTS games. So I stand by my opinion and btw plz refrain from calling me a troll just becuase I dont got the same opinion as others OH SHIT, I TRIED TO PLAY STARCRAFT AND IT FELT DIFFERENT FROM OTHER RTS GAMES. OTHER PEOPLE MUST FEEL THE SAME WAY I FEEL TOO BECAUSE I AM THE STANDARD HUMAN THEREFORE I AUTOMATICALLY KNOW HOW EVERYONE FEELS. IN CONCLUSION, YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO COMPARE THEM BECAUSE THEY FEEL DIFFERENT. DID I MENTION THAT I'M ALSO A BIG FAN OF RTS GAMES!!!!!! First of all, learn how to type properly. How do you expect people to take you seriously? It's fucking tried, not "tryed" and Yes motherfucker I can compare them as the post below explain. [stolen post from another thread] On May 31 2012 03:01 captainshards wrote: But, a minor rant here, ive noticed so much use of the whole "objective/subjective" argument to validate ANYTHING and ANY opinion online. It seems as if people learn the definitions of those words and run rampant trying to teach the world a lesson in logic. But what never gets said is that sometimes when you use a theory or a concept, its totally great until you realize that life and reality isnt always summed up by theory and concept. There are realities. You can say al day long that there is no right and wrong its all opinion but we are trying to live in a society that functions. A "tool". And a tool can be judged at how good of a tool it is and objectivity/subjectivity loses some of its shine in these types of discussions. You and i both can argue which hammer is better but in the end there is a chance one hammer will break while the other does not. Therefore that is a better hammer. A better tool. Why? Because it does a better job of putting nails in. It doesnt matter opinion, either the nail goes in or does not. One could argue that the elements of BW just happen to have more tendency to create the types of situations that lead to surprise or tension in the average human beings mind. Therefore it is a better tool for that job. If you have two calculators and one gives you back a wrong answer every random 20 calculations that is a worse tool and it doesnt matter what your opinion is because that particular tool is designed to calculate accurately. This is not a point im making to argue for or against BW vs SC2 because i personally dont care anymore which one is better. Nor do i know in the end which game will be "better". Im not even remotely qualified to predict the future of this game. I hoe for it to be better because i like RTS games and i like high level play. I just get tired of "objective/subjective" arguments that are treated as the end all of logic because they arent. A tool can be judged. Arguing which game is better and feeling satisfied that there is no answer is worse for the game than questioning what actually might be better in either one and trying to reach for that goal to make SC2 the best tool it can possibly be to entertain human beings. If you cite subjectivity etc and call it a day you never move beyond that and you never really solve any problems that may exist. The only thing you do that way is feel better about your own opinion. You are really agressive maybe you should take a chill pill
when something you've loved/admired is being replaced by what you see as completely inadequate, I think it's a little difficult to be "chill"
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To be honest I don't want to see the exact same bw units. What would be cool are creative units that take away from the deathball style.
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On June 18 2012 16:01 Jumperer wrote:
BW was designed by the original blizzard where creativity was king. SC2 was designed by the post-WoW blizzard where the company's mentality change from creating legendary games to making as much money as possible. Blizzard doesn't really give a fuck about the progamers, you or me. Current blizzard really has fucked up game design mentality. They played it safe to maximize profit and to appeal to the lowest common denominator. They went from making classical music like L.Beethoven to pop music ala J.Bieber.
Why would they remove things that made starcraft 1 exciting? mutalisk micro, vulture micro, spider mines, reaver control, lurker. They should've use those units as a foundation to build the game around instead of doing whatever the fuck they are doing. They only care about the mass because that's where the money is. Dustin Browder doesn't know what the hell he is doing. Units get added or removed every other week. They are just throwing shits at the wall and hope it sticks. Think about it, what kind of fucking expansion pack remove units from the game? Expand does not equal remove. That's the first redflag.
Look at these epic game design concepts.
Hydralisk, the most iconic unit in SC, became a worthless unit in SC2, but fear not, we have this thing called Roach. It's basically hydralisk that can shoot ground only. It even spit green shits too! What revolutionary creative game design.
Marauder? it's basically a marine that shoot a little bit slower and do more damage to armour unit. In C&C we have different type of units that do the same thing from the same range from the same production building so might as well put that in SC2 too.
Infester? Let give it plague, but plague was overpowered so we'll shorten the plague. Also let's paint it green and make it stop everything so people doesn't know that it's plague.
colossus? I guess reaver was too good so let replace it with the most ugly and boring unit in the entire RTS history.
And for those who said that there is nothing wrong with the game because its popular and people still plays it. you automatically lose the debate by default. Popular does not equal good. call of duty is popular, but it sucks. justin bieber sell ton of albums, but he still sucks. Hitler won 99% of germany support during WW2 and yet he is still a terrible person.
Hitler? I believe the real problem is that BW was such a pinnacle of creativity and game design, and the new dev team (which I agree is not nearly as talented, but they still have interesting ideas) is trying to top that and is just barely shying close. The game's still interesting though, although their recent updates (queen buff) have been breaking the balance they managed to stumble upon after nearly a year and a half of shifting imbalances.
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On June 18 2012 16:30 ArvickHero wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 16:26 Benjamin99 wrote:On June 18 2012 16:14 Jumperer wrote:On June 18 2012 15:59 Benjamin99 wrote:On June 18 2012 15:43 Tyrant0 wrote:On June 18 2012 15:42 lorkac wrote:On June 18 2012 15:39 Tyrant0 wrote:On June 18 2012 14:09 Benjamin99 wrote:On June 18 2012 13:05 0neder wrote:On June 18 2012 12:57 Benjamin99 wrote:
Why dont they use units from warcraft 3? Or Commander & Conquer?. Maybe becuase its a new game? I really dont understand why BW fans keep bitching about starcraft 2. Its not the same game its a new game!
If you dont like it dont play it its very simple! Unfortunately, I don't think your post was a troll attempt, but just to name a few: Blink - from WC3 Concussive shells - from WC3 Hero Units - from WC3 Super long range high supply units - from C&C And I'm not familiar with C&C, but based off what I've heard from TL, apparently most of the new SC2 units and their abilities directly correlate to C&C units, and many of SC2's current deficiencies parallel those of C&C. I like SC2. But LIKE isn't good enough. Ever seen Ratatouille. I don't just want to LIKE SC2. I want to LOVE it. It's not good enough right now to love. If you want to understand the critique, then you need to understand BW. I don't care about Brood War itself, but I love it because it was based on successful principles of game design, competition, and excitement. SC2 needs that complete foundation or it will fizzle fast. You can't just change major league baseball to teeball and say NEW GAME! BE HAPPY! No I dont troll, My point is starcraft 2 got nothing todo with BW just like it got nothing todo with warcraft 3. Yea it might have mechanics and spells that are similar but isnt that becuase the games are made from the same company? I really cant understand why BW fans keep trying to make starcraft 2 into BW. They are not the same just like football and handball arnt the same yea they might both be using a round ball to play the game but thats about it! How can you write this in the same sentence you claim not to be trolling? Because he honestly believes that they are different games? Theres a distinct difference in wording. Believing that they are different games is not the same as the two games having nothing to do with each other. Ofcourse the games got something todo with eachother but thats mostly becuase of a smart business concept using name recognition to sell a new RTS game to new users and old customers. When I tryed BW it felt so completly different I really felt I was playing a completly new game. And proberly the same thing happend when BW,C&C and warcraft 3 players tryed starcraft 2 for the first time. Im a big fan of RTS games but each game are pretty unique you cant really compare them only thing they got in commen are they are RTS games. So I stand by my opinion and btw plz refrain from calling me a troll just becuase I dont got the same opinion as others OH SHIT, I TRIED TO PLAY STARCRAFT AND IT FELT DIFFERENT FROM OTHER RTS GAMES. OTHER PEOPLE MUST FEEL THE SAME WAY I FEEL TOO BECAUSE I AM THE STANDARD HUMAN THEREFORE I AUTOMATICALLY KNOW HOW EVERYONE FEELS. IN CONCLUSION, YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO COMPARE THEM BECAUSE THEY FEEL DIFFERENT. DID I MENTION THAT I'M ALSO A BIG FAN OF RTS GAMES!!!!!! First of all, learn how to type properly. How do you expect people to take you seriously? It's fucking tried, not "tryed" and Yes motherfucker I can compare them as the post below explain. [stolen post from another thread] On May 31 2012 03:01 captainshards wrote: But, a minor rant here, ive noticed so much use of the whole "objective/subjective" argument to validate ANYTHING and ANY opinion online. It seems as if people learn the definitions of those words and run rampant trying to teach the world a lesson in logic. But what never gets said is that sometimes when you use a theory or a concept, its totally great until you realize that life and reality isnt always summed up by theory and concept. There are realities. You can say al day long that there is no right and wrong its all opinion but we are trying to live in a society that functions. A "tool". And a tool can be judged at how good of a tool it is and objectivity/subjectivity loses some of its shine in these types of discussions. You and i both can argue which hammer is better but in the end there is a chance one hammer will break while the other does not. Therefore that is a better hammer. A better tool. Why? Because it does a better job of putting nails in. It doesnt matter opinion, either the nail goes in or does not. One could argue that the elements of BW just happen to have more tendency to create the types of situations that lead to surprise or tension in the average human beings mind. Therefore it is a better tool for that job. If you have two calculators and one gives you back a wrong answer every random 20 calculations that is a worse tool and it doesnt matter what your opinion is because that particular tool is designed to calculate accurately. This is not a point im making to argue for or against BW vs SC2 because i personally dont care anymore which one is better. Nor do i know in the end which game will be "better". Im not even remotely qualified to predict the future of this game. I hoe for it to be better because i like RTS games and i like high level play. I just get tired of "objective/subjective" arguments that are treated as the end all of logic because they arent. A tool can be judged. Arguing which game is better and feeling satisfied that there is no answer is worse for the game than questioning what actually might be better in either one and trying to reach for that goal to make SC2 the best tool it can possibly be to entertain human beings. If you cite subjectivity etc and call it a day you never move beyond that and you never really solve any problems that may exist. The only thing you do that way is feel better about your own opinion. You are really agressive maybe you should take a chill pill when something you've loved/admired is being replaced by what you see as completely inadequate, I think it's a little difficult to be "chill"
Yeah, I definitely agree about the inadequacy.. (when SC2 beta came out, I despised it because the game bored me compared to BW)
However, no need to call others "motherfucker" :x
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On June 18 2012 16:30 ArvickHero wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 16:26 Benjamin99 wrote:On June 18 2012 16:14 Jumperer wrote:On June 18 2012 15:59 Benjamin99 wrote:On June 18 2012 15:43 Tyrant0 wrote:On June 18 2012 15:42 lorkac wrote:On June 18 2012 15:39 Tyrant0 wrote:On June 18 2012 14:09 Benjamin99 wrote:On June 18 2012 13:05 0neder wrote:On June 18 2012 12:57 Benjamin99 wrote:
Why dont they use units from warcraft 3? Or Commander & Conquer?. Maybe becuase its a new game? I really dont understand why BW fans keep bitching about starcraft 2. Its not the same game its a new game!
If you dont like it dont play it its very simple! Unfortunately, I don't think your post was a troll attempt, but just to name a few: Blink - from WC3 Concussive shells - from WC3 Hero Units - from WC3 Super long range high supply units - from C&C And I'm not familiar with C&C, but based off what I've heard from TL, apparently most of the new SC2 units and their abilities directly correlate to C&C units, and many of SC2's current deficiencies parallel those of C&C. I like SC2. But LIKE isn't good enough. Ever seen Ratatouille. I don't just want to LIKE SC2. I want to LOVE it. It's not good enough right now to love. If you want to understand the critique, then you need to understand BW. I don't care about Brood War itself, but I love it because it was based on successful principles of game design, competition, and excitement. SC2 needs that complete foundation or it will fizzle fast. You can't just change major league baseball to teeball and say NEW GAME! BE HAPPY! No I dont troll, My point is starcraft 2 got nothing todo with BW just like it got nothing todo with warcraft 3. Yea it might have mechanics and spells that are similar but isnt that becuase the games are made from the same company? I really cant understand why BW fans keep trying to make starcraft 2 into BW. They are not the same just like football and handball arnt the same yea they might both be using a round ball to play the game but thats about it! How can you write this in the same sentence you claim not to be trolling? Because he honestly believes that they are different games? Theres a distinct difference in wording. Believing that they are different games is not the same as the two games having nothing to do with each other. Ofcourse the games got something todo with eachother but thats mostly becuase of a smart business concept using name recognition to sell a new RTS game to new users and old customers. When I tryed BW it felt so completly different I really felt I was playing a completly new game. And proberly the same thing happend when BW,C&C and warcraft 3 players tryed starcraft 2 for the first time. Im a big fan of RTS games but each game are pretty unique you cant really compare them only thing they got in commen are they are RTS games. So I stand by my opinion and btw plz refrain from calling me a troll just becuase I dont got the same opinion as others OH SHIT, I TRIED TO PLAY STARCRAFT AND IT FELT DIFFERENT FROM OTHER RTS GAMES. OTHER PEOPLE MUST FEEL THE SAME WAY I FEEL TOO BECAUSE I AM THE STANDARD HUMAN THEREFORE I AUTOMATICALLY KNOW HOW EVERYONE FEELS. IN CONCLUSION, YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO COMPARE THEM BECAUSE THEY FEEL DIFFERENT. DID I MENTION THAT I'M ALSO A BIG FAN OF RTS GAMES!!!!!! First of all, learn how to type properly. How do you expect people to take you seriously? It's fucking tried, not "tryed" and Yes motherfucker I can compare them as the post below explain. [stolen post from another thread] On May 31 2012 03:01 captainshards wrote: But, a minor rant here, ive noticed so much use of the whole "objective/subjective" argument to validate ANYTHING and ANY opinion online. It seems as if people learn the definitions of those words and run rampant trying to teach the world a lesson in logic. But what never gets said is that sometimes when you use a theory or a concept, its totally great until you realize that life and reality isnt always summed up by theory and concept. There are realities. You can say al day long that there is no right and wrong its all opinion but we are trying to live in a society that functions. A "tool". And a tool can be judged at how good of a tool it is and objectivity/subjectivity loses some of its shine in these types of discussions. You and i both can argue which hammer is better but in the end there is a chance one hammer will break while the other does not. Therefore that is a better hammer. A better tool. Why? Because it does a better job of putting nails in. It doesnt matter opinion, either the nail goes in or does not. One could argue that the elements of BW just happen to have more tendency to create the types of situations that lead to surprise or tension in the average human beings mind. Therefore it is a better tool for that job. If you have two calculators and one gives you back a wrong answer every random 20 calculations that is a worse tool and it doesnt matter what your opinion is because that particular tool is designed to calculate accurately. This is not a point im making to argue for or against BW vs SC2 because i personally dont care anymore which one is better. Nor do i know in the end which game will be "better". Im not even remotely qualified to predict the future of this game. I hoe for it to be better because i like RTS games and i like high level play. I just get tired of "objective/subjective" arguments that are treated as the end all of logic because they arent. A tool can be judged. Arguing which game is better and feeling satisfied that there is no answer is worse for the game than questioning what actually might be better in either one and trying to reach for that goal to make SC2 the best tool it can possibly be to entertain human beings. If you cite subjectivity etc and call it a day you never move beyond that and you never really solve any problems that may exist. The only thing you do that way is feel better about your own opinion. You are really agressive maybe you should take a chill pill when something you've loved/admired is being replaced by what you see as completely inadequate, I think it's a little difficult to be "chill"
You can still play BW, it didn't get replaced. I think there are also still some BW tournaments that you can watch and you are always free to start hosting your own BW tournaments with others that don't like Starcraft 2...
It's not the end of BW unless you make it the end.
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In some cases it would really be cool to see a reintroduction of some BW units but it is not necessary. Blizzard is doin a great job by creating newly designed units. And those of you who complain about the new Units like the colossus, the infestor or something else need not to play Starcraft 2. BW is still there, so if you want BW units then play BW. If you want something new then go and play SC2.
Just my opinion.
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10387 Posts
On June 18 2012 16:51 JerKy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 16:30 ArvickHero wrote:On June 18 2012 16:26 Benjamin99 wrote:On June 18 2012 16:14 Jumperer wrote:On June 18 2012 15:59 Benjamin99 wrote:On June 18 2012 15:43 Tyrant0 wrote:On June 18 2012 15:42 lorkac wrote:On June 18 2012 15:39 Tyrant0 wrote:On June 18 2012 14:09 Benjamin99 wrote:On June 18 2012 13:05 0neder wrote:
[quote]
Unfortunately, I don't think your post was a troll attempt, but just to name a few:
Blink - from WC3
Concussive shells - from WC3
Hero Units - from WC3
Super long range high supply units - from C&C
And I'm not familiar with C&C, but based off what I've heard from TL, apparently most of the new SC2 units and their abilities directly correlate to C&C units, and many of SC2's current deficiencies parallel those of C&C.
I like SC2. But LIKE isn't good enough. Ever seen Ratatouille. I don't just want to LIKE SC2. I want to LOVE it. It's not good enough right now to love.
If you want to understand the critique, then you need to understand BW. I don't care about Brood War itself, but I love it because it was based on successful principles of game design, competition, and excitement. SC2 needs that complete foundation or it will fizzle fast. You can't just change major league baseball to teeball and say NEW GAME! BE HAPPY!
No I dont troll, My point is starcraft 2 got nothing todo with BW just like it got nothing todo with warcraft 3. Yea it might have mechanics and spells that are similar but isnt that becuase the games are made from the same company? I really cant understand why BW fans keep trying to make starcraft 2 into BW. They are not the same just like football and handball arnt the same yea they might both be using a round ball to play the game but thats about it! How can you write this in the same sentence you claim not to be trolling? Because he honestly believes that they are different games? Theres a distinct difference in wording. Believing that they are different games is not the same as the two games having nothing to do with each other. Ofcourse the games got something todo with eachother but thats mostly becuase of a smart business concept using name recognition to sell a new RTS game to new users and old customers. When I tryed BW it felt so completly different I really felt I was playing a completly new game. And proberly the same thing happend when BW,C&C and warcraft 3 players tryed starcraft 2 for the first time. Im a big fan of RTS games but each game are pretty unique you cant really compare them only thing they got in commen are they are RTS games. So I stand by my opinion and btw plz refrain from calling me a troll just becuase I dont got the same opinion as others OH SHIT, I TRIED TO PLAY STARCRAFT AND IT FELT DIFFERENT FROM OTHER RTS GAMES. OTHER PEOPLE MUST FEEL THE SAME WAY I FEEL TOO BECAUSE I AM THE STANDARD HUMAN THEREFORE I AUTOMATICALLY KNOW HOW EVERYONE FEELS. IN CONCLUSION, YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO COMPARE THEM BECAUSE THEY FEEL DIFFERENT. DID I MENTION THAT I'M ALSO A BIG FAN OF RTS GAMES!!!!!! First of all, learn how to type properly. How do you expect people to take you seriously? It's fucking tried, not "tryed" and Yes motherfucker I can compare them as the post below explain. [stolen post from another thread] On May 31 2012 03:01 captainshards wrote: But, a minor rant here, ive noticed so much use of the whole "objective/subjective" argument to validate ANYTHING and ANY opinion online. It seems as if people learn the definitions of those words and run rampant trying to teach the world a lesson in logic. But what never gets said is that sometimes when you use a theory or a concept, its totally great until you realize that life and reality isnt always summed up by theory and concept. There are realities. You can say al day long that there is no right and wrong its all opinion but we are trying to live in a society that functions. A "tool". And a tool can be judged at how good of a tool it is and objectivity/subjectivity loses some of its shine in these types of discussions. You and i both can argue which hammer is better but in the end there is a chance one hammer will break while the other does not. Therefore that is a better hammer. A better tool. Why? Because it does a better job of putting nails in. It doesnt matter opinion, either the nail goes in or does not. One could argue that the elements of BW just happen to have more tendency to create the types of situations that lead to surprise or tension in the average human beings mind. Therefore it is a better tool for that job. If you have two calculators and one gives you back a wrong answer every random 20 calculations that is a worse tool and it doesnt matter what your opinion is because that particular tool is designed to calculate accurately. This is not a point im making to argue for or against BW vs SC2 because i personally dont care anymore which one is better. Nor do i know in the end which game will be "better". Im not even remotely qualified to predict the future of this game. I hoe for it to be better because i like RTS games and i like high level play. I just get tired of "objective/subjective" arguments that are treated as the end all of logic because they arent. A tool can be judged. Arguing which game is better and feeling satisfied that there is no answer is worse for the game than questioning what actually might be better in either one and trying to reach for that goal to make SC2 the best tool it can possibly be to entertain human beings. If you cite subjectivity etc and call it a day you never move beyond that and you never really solve any problems that may exist. The only thing you do that way is feel better about your own opinion. You are really agressive maybe you should take a chill pill when something you've loved/admired is being replaced by what you see as completely inadequate, I think it's a little difficult to be "chill" Yeah, I definitely agree about the inadequacy.. (when SC2 beta came out, I despised it because the game bored me compared to BW) However, no need to call others "motherfucker" :x
Well, just pointing out why he, and many others are feeling so angrily about it. I just deal with it by refraining from posting nowadays.
On June 18 2012 16:53 Morfildur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 16:30 ArvickHero wrote:On June 18 2012 16:26 Benjamin99 wrote:On June 18 2012 16:14 Jumperer wrote:On June 18 2012 15:59 Benjamin99 wrote:On June 18 2012 15:43 Tyrant0 wrote:On June 18 2012 15:42 lorkac wrote:On June 18 2012 15:39 Tyrant0 wrote:On June 18 2012 14:09 Benjamin99 wrote:On June 18 2012 13:05 0neder wrote:
[quote]
Unfortunately, I don't think your post was a troll attempt, but just to name a few:
Blink - from WC3
Concussive shells - from WC3
Hero Units - from WC3
Super long range high supply units - from C&C
And I'm not familiar with C&C, but based off what I've heard from TL, apparently most of the new SC2 units and their abilities directly correlate to C&C units, and many of SC2's current deficiencies parallel those of C&C.
I like SC2. But LIKE isn't good enough. Ever seen Ratatouille. I don't just want to LIKE SC2. I want to LOVE it. It's not good enough right now to love.
If you want to understand the critique, then you need to understand BW. I don't care about Brood War itself, but I love it because it was based on successful principles of game design, competition, and excitement. SC2 needs that complete foundation or it will fizzle fast. You can't just change major league baseball to teeball and say NEW GAME! BE HAPPY!
No I dont troll, My point is starcraft 2 got nothing todo with BW just like it got nothing todo with warcraft 3. Yea it might have mechanics and spells that are similar but isnt that becuase the games are made from the same company? I really cant understand why BW fans keep trying to make starcraft 2 into BW. They are not the same just like football and handball arnt the same yea they might both be using a round ball to play the game but thats about it! How can you write this in the same sentence you claim not to be trolling? Because he honestly believes that they are different games? Theres a distinct difference in wording. Believing that they are different games is not the same as the two games having nothing to do with each other. Ofcourse the games got something todo with eachother but thats mostly becuase of a smart business concept using name recognition to sell a new RTS game to new users and old customers. When I tryed BW it felt so completly different I really felt I was playing a completly new game. And proberly the same thing happend when BW,C&C and warcraft 3 players tryed starcraft 2 for the first time. Im a big fan of RTS games but each game are pretty unique you cant really compare them only thing they got in commen are they are RTS games. So I stand by my opinion and btw plz refrain from calling me a troll just becuase I dont got the same opinion as others OH SHIT, I TRIED TO PLAY STARCRAFT AND IT FELT DIFFERENT FROM OTHER RTS GAMES. OTHER PEOPLE MUST FEEL THE SAME WAY I FEEL TOO BECAUSE I AM THE STANDARD HUMAN THEREFORE I AUTOMATICALLY KNOW HOW EVERYONE FEELS. IN CONCLUSION, YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO COMPARE THEM BECAUSE THEY FEEL DIFFERENT. DID I MENTION THAT I'M ALSO A BIG FAN OF RTS GAMES!!!!!! First of all, learn how to type properly. How do you expect people to take you seriously? It's fucking tried, not "tryed" and Yes motherfucker I can compare them as the post below explain. [stolen post from another thread] On May 31 2012 03:01 captainshards wrote: But, a minor rant here, ive noticed so much use of the whole "objective/subjective" argument to validate ANYTHING and ANY opinion online. It seems as if people learn the definitions of those words and run rampant trying to teach the world a lesson in logic. But what never gets said is that sometimes when you use a theory or a concept, its totally great until you realize that life and reality isnt always summed up by theory and concept. There are realities. You can say al day long that there is no right and wrong its all opinion but we are trying to live in a society that functions. A "tool". And a tool can be judged at how good of a tool it is and objectivity/subjectivity loses some of its shine in these types of discussions. You and i both can argue which hammer is better but in the end there is a chance one hammer will break while the other does not. Therefore that is a better hammer. A better tool. Why? Because it does a better job of putting nails in. It doesnt matter opinion, either the nail goes in or does not. One could argue that the elements of BW just happen to have more tendency to create the types of situations that lead to surprise or tension in the average human beings mind. Therefore it is a better tool for that job. If you have two calculators and one gives you back a wrong answer every random 20 calculations that is a worse tool and it doesnt matter what your opinion is because that particular tool is designed to calculate accurately. This is not a point im making to argue for or against BW vs SC2 because i personally dont care anymore which one is better. Nor do i know in the end which game will be "better". Im not even remotely qualified to predict the future of this game. I hoe for it to be better because i like RTS games and i like high level play. I just get tired of "objective/subjective" arguments that are treated as the end all of logic because they arent. A tool can be judged. Arguing which game is better and feeling satisfied that there is no answer is worse for the game than questioning what actually might be better in either one and trying to reach for that goal to make SC2 the best tool it can possibly be to entertain human beings. If you cite subjectivity etc and call it a day you never move beyond that and you never really solve any problems that may exist. The only thing you do that way is feel better about your own opinion. You are really agressive maybe you should take a chill pill when something you've loved/admired is being replaced by what you see as completely inadequate, I think it's a little difficult to be "chill" You can still play BW, it didn't get replaced. I think there are also still some BW tournaments that you can watch and you are always free to start hosting your own BW tournaments with others that don't like Starcraft 2... It's not the end of BW unless you make it the end.
you make me laugh lol
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On June 17 2012 00:59 DemigodcelpH wrote:
Because Dustin Browder is cancer with his "go play BW it's a great game" line. He has no talent, is too old, and isn't suited for the job he has. Him and his goons prefer their pride over admitting they introduced fundamental balance flaws that can be fixed by taking a hint from some of the BW units.
Sorry about the negative tone, but it sums up the answer to your question.
User was temp banned for this post.
I'm sorry guys, but that's the truth. He said it with wrong tone maybe, but he has the point. The people who say "hey go make a better game" just ignore the fact. We are not game developers. We are gamers. But we are not stupid, we can make the difference between good and bad game design. Another typical answer is: "it would be too boring to copy the BW units". Well, as much as I hate to say that, it would much more fun their than new units. What's wrong with copying the old units? I mean marines are still there, zerglings are still there, but even tier 3 units like ultras and BCs are there. So it's not a whole new game, that's why its STARCRAFT 2, and not Blizzard New RTS Game or whatever. If we just bring back lurker and goliath (for example) it won't make the game more boring. It's like saying we shouldn't have hydras because they already existed in BW. Also, if you look at which units they didn't bring back, it will be another interesting issue. They didn't bring back lurkers, reavers, vultures, corsairs etc. And with what have they replaced them? Roaches, colloses, hellions, pheonixes. If you still can't see the pattern, I will explain. They replaced all micro intensive units with a-move units. Coincidence? I think not.
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On June 18 2012 16:27 Gheed wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 16:26 Benjamin99 wrote:On June 18 2012 16:14 Jumperer wrote:On June 18 2012 15:59 Benjamin99 wrote:On June 18 2012 15:43 Tyrant0 wrote:On June 18 2012 15:42 lorkac wrote:On June 18 2012 15:39 Tyrant0 wrote:On June 18 2012 14:09 Benjamin99 wrote:On June 18 2012 13:05 0neder wrote:On June 18 2012 12:57 Benjamin99 wrote:
Why dont they use units from warcraft 3? Or Commander & Conquer?. Maybe becuase its a new game? I really dont understand why BW fans keep bitching about starcraft 2. Its not the same game its a new game!
If you dont like it dont play it its very simple! Unfortunately, I don't think your post was a troll attempt, but just to name a few: Blink - from WC3 Concussive shells - from WC3 Hero Units - from WC3 Super long range high supply units - from C&C And I'm not familiar with C&C, but based off what I've heard from TL, apparently most of the new SC2 units and their abilities directly correlate to C&C units, and many of SC2's current deficiencies parallel those of C&C. I like SC2. But LIKE isn't good enough. Ever seen Ratatouille. I don't just want to LIKE SC2. I want to LOVE it. It's not good enough right now to love. If you want to understand the critique, then you need to understand BW. I don't care about Brood War itself, but I love it because it was based on successful principles of game design, competition, and excitement. SC2 needs that complete foundation or it will fizzle fast. You can't just change major league baseball to teeball and say NEW GAME! BE HAPPY! No I dont troll, My point is starcraft 2 got nothing todo with BW just like it got nothing todo with warcraft 3. Yea it might have mechanics and spells that are similar but isnt that becuase the games are made from the same company? I really cant understand why BW fans keep trying to make starcraft 2 into BW. They are not the same just like football and handball arnt the same yea they might both be using a round ball to play the game but thats about it! How can you write this in the same sentence you claim not to be trolling? Because he honestly believes that they are different games? Theres a distinct difference in wording. Believing that they are different games is not the same as the two games having nothing to do with each other. Ofcourse the games got something todo with eachother but thats mostly becuase of a smart business concept using name recognition to sell a new RTS game to new users and old customers. When I tryed BW it felt so completly different I really felt I was playing a completly new game. And proberly the same thing happend when BW,C&C and warcraft 3 players tryed starcraft 2 for the first time. Im a big fan of RTS games but each game are pretty unique you cant really compare them only thing they got in commen are they are RTS games. So I stand by my opinion and btw plz refrain from calling me a troll just becuase I dont got the same opinion as others OH SHIT, I TRIED TO PLAY STARCRAFT AND IT FELT DIFFERENT FROM OTHER RTS GAMES. OTHER PEOPLE MUST FEEL THE SAME WAY I FEEL TOO BECAUSE I AM THE STANDARD HUMAN THEREFORE I AUTOMATICALLY KNOW HOW EVERYONE FEELS. IN CONCLUSION, YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO COMPARE THEM BECAUSE THEY FEEL DIFFERENT. DID I MENTION THAT I'M ALSO A BIG FAN OF RTS GAMES!!!!!! First of all, learn how to type properly. How do you expect people to take you seriously? It's fucking tried, not "tryed" and Yes motherfucker I can compare them as the post below explain. [stolen post from another thread] On May 31 2012 03:01 captainshards wrote: But, a minor rant here, ive noticed so much use of the whole "objective/subjective" argument to validate ANYTHING and ANY opinion online. It seems as if people learn the definitions of those words and run rampant trying to teach the world a lesson in logic. But what never gets said is that sometimes when you use a theory or a concept, its totally great until you realize that life and reality isnt always summed up by theory and concept. There are realities. You can say al day long that there is no right and wrong its all opinion but we are trying to live in a society that functions. A "tool". And a tool can be judged at how good of a tool it is and objectivity/subjectivity loses some of its shine in these types of discussions. You and i both can argue which hammer is better but in the end there is a chance one hammer will break while the other does not. Therefore that is a better hammer. A better tool. Why? Because it does a better job of putting nails in. It doesnt matter opinion, either the nail goes in or does not. One could argue that the elements of BW just happen to have more tendency to create the types of situations that lead to surprise or tension in the average human beings mind. Therefore it is a better tool for that job. If you have two calculators and one gives you back a wrong answer every random 20 calculations that is a worse tool and it doesnt matter what your opinion is because that particular tool is designed to calculate accurately. This is not a point im making to argue for or against BW vs SC2 because i personally dont care anymore which one is better. Nor do i know in the end which game will be "better". Im not even remotely qualified to predict the future of this game. I hoe for it to be better because i like RTS games and i like high level play. I just get tired of "objective/subjective" arguments that are treated as the end all of logic because they arent. A tool can be judged. Arguing which game is better and feeling satisfied that there is no answer is worse for the game than questioning what actually might be better in either one and trying to reach for that goal to make SC2 the best tool it can possibly be to entertain human beings. If you cite subjectivity etc and call it a day you never move beyond that and you never really solve any problems that may exist. The only thing you do that way is feel better about your own opinion. You are really agressive maybe you should take a chill pill I predict the forums are going to be a less pleasurable place to be around for the next several months. I miss when people just complained that forcefields were op.
I hated that time period. I hate it when anyone complains anything is OP. They are the scourge that prevents a game from reaching a high level of play. If BW got nerfed every time a Terran yelled imba when their SCVs all died from a DT drop which they were too slow in detecting, or when a Protoss stupidly decided to walk across a field of lurkers without detection, the game would be a very stale and very boring.
Yeah, you can't remove unit clumping or change unit pathing, and there's no way in hell you'll remove MBS and automine. Yeah I get that. And you don't want to put in BW units at all.
But what you really need to look at is the underlying principles of what the units in BW could accomplish:
So you get that lurkers are similar to banelings in that they are really good against large clumps of small units. But you need to understand two steps further.
Lurkers are a cloaked "siege" unit, which has a potential for both offensive and defensive use. But you need to delve even deeper than that.
Unlike banelings, whilst they can also be burrowed and set off as remote detonations, you had to be extremely careful around small numbers of lurkers, and a large number of lurkers would actually delay the Terran army significantly. They had to spend a large amount of time to get a specific number of Science vessels to irradiate or take precious time to siege/unsiege tanks. At which point, Zerg has gotten 4 base gas, and you are in extremely deep shit.
Perhaps they aren't intending for the swarm host to be anything like this (which would be a bad idea imo), but if they are, it doesn't feel like a unit that can delay or contain anything. It seems like you can just walk units over
I think the underlying flaw of the "deathball" is not actually the high DPS of the units, but that the game does not slowly play out. One player does not slowly edge to victory, or play with a marginal advantage. It just seems like a massive storm of chaos, and there does not seem to be that many decisions involved. For example, the last GSL finals. One player gets a large amount of BCs, and the only real decision seemingly made is to vortex the BCs at the correct moment. There didn't seem to be any way that Protoss would have been able to outplay or outmicro Terran at that point.
Here's one of Day 9's really old articles that I stumbled across on competitive gaming.
It's pretty much what I think about what makes competitive games great.
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On June 18 2012 16:53 Morfildur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 16:30 ArvickHero wrote:On June 18 2012 16:26 Benjamin99 wrote:On June 18 2012 16:14 Jumperer wrote:On June 18 2012 15:59 Benjamin99 wrote:On June 18 2012 15:43 Tyrant0 wrote:On June 18 2012 15:42 lorkac wrote:On June 18 2012 15:39 Tyrant0 wrote:On June 18 2012 14:09 Benjamin99 wrote:On June 18 2012 13:05 0neder wrote:
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Unfortunately, I don't think your post was a troll attempt, but just to name a few:
Blink - from WC3
Concussive shells - from WC3
Hero Units - from WC3
Super long range high supply units - from C&C
And I'm not familiar with C&C, but based off what I've heard from TL, apparently most of the new SC2 units and their abilities directly correlate to C&C units, and many of SC2's current deficiencies parallel those of C&C.
I like SC2. But LIKE isn't good enough. Ever seen Ratatouille. I don't just want to LIKE SC2. I want to LOVE it. It's not good enough right now to love.
If you want to understand the critique, then you need to understand BW. I don't care about Brood War itself, but I love it because it was based on successful principles of game design, competition, and excitement. SC2 needs that complete foundation or it will fizzle fast. You can't just change major league baseball to teeball and say NEW GAME! BE HAPPY!
No I dont troll, My point is starcraft 2 got nothing todo with BW just like it got nothing todo with warcraft 3. Yea it might have mechanics and spells that are similar but isnt that becuase the games are made from the same company? I really cant understand why BW fans keep trying to make starcraft 2 into BW. They are not the same just like football and handball arnt the same yea they might both be using a round ball to play the game but thats about it! How can you write this in the same sentence you claim not to be trolling? Because he honestly believes that they are different games? Theres a distinct difference in wording. Believing that they are different games is not the same as the two games having nothing to do with each other. Ofcourse the games got something todo with eachother but thats mostly becuase of a smart business concept using name recognition to sell a new RTS game to new users and old customers. When I tryed BW it felt so completly different I really felt I was playing a completly new game. And proberly the same thing happend when BW,C&C and warcraft 3 players tryed starcraft 2 for the first time. Im a big fan of RTS games but each game are pretty unique you cant really compare them only thing they got in commen are they are RTS games. So I stand by my opinion and btw plz refrain from calling me a troll just becuase I dont got the same opinion as others OH SHIT, I TRIED TO PLAY STARCRAFT AND IT FELT DIFFERENT FROM OTHER RTS GAMES. OTHER PEOPLE MUST FEEL THE SAME WAY I FEEL TOO BECAUSE I AM THE STANDARD HUMAN THEREFORE I AUTOMATICALLY KNOW HOW EVERYONE FEELS. IN CONCLUSION, YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO COMPARE THEM BECAUSE THEY FEEL DIFFERENT. DID I MENTION THAT I'M ALSO A BIG FAN OF RTS GAMES!!!!!! First of all, learn how to type properly. How do you expect people to take you seriously? It's fucking tried, not "tryed" and Yes motherfucker I can compare them as the post below explain. [stolen post from another thread] On May 31 2012 03:01 captainshards wrote: But, a minor rant here, ive noticed so much use of the whole "objective/subjective" argument to validate ANYTHING and ANY opinion online. It seems as if people learn the definitions of those words and run rampant trying to teach the world a lesson in logic. But what never gets said is that sometimes when you use a theory or a concept, its totally great until you realize that life and reality isnt always summed up by theory and concept. There are realities. You can say al day long that there is no right and wrong its all opinion but we are trying to live in a society that functions. A "tool". And a tool can be judged at how good of a tool it is and objectivity/subjectivity loses some of its shine in these types of discussions. You and i both can argue which hammer is better but in the end there is a chance one hammer will break while the other does not. Therefore that is a better hammer. A better tool. Why? Because it does a better job of putting nails in. It doesnt matter opinion, either the nail goes in or does not. One could argue that the elements of BW just happen to have more tendency to create the types of situations that lead to surprise or tension in the average human beings mind. Therefore it is a better tool for that job. If you have two calculators and one gives you back a wrong answer every random 20 calculations that is a worse tool and it doesnt matter what your opinion is because that particular tool is designed to calculate accurately. This is not a point im making to argue for or against BW vs SC2 because i personally dont care anymore which one is better. Nor do i know in the end which game will be "better". Im not even remotely qualified to predict the future of this game. I hoe for it to be better because i like RTS games and i like high level play. I just get tired of "objective/subjective" arguments that are treated as the end all of logic because they arent. A tool can be judged. Arguing which game is better and feeling satisfied that there is no answer is worse for the game than questioning what actually might be better in either one and trying to reach for that goal to make SC2 the best tool it can possibly be to entertain human beings. If you cite subjectivity etc and call it a day you never move beyond that and you never really solve any problems that may exist. The only thing you do that way is feel better about your own opinion. You are really agressive maybe you should take a chill pill when something you've loved/admired is being replaced by what you see as completely inadequate, I think it's a little difficult to be "chill" You can still play BW, it didn't get replaced. I think there are also still some BW tournaments that you can watch and you are always free to start hosting your own BW tournaments with others that don't like Starcraft 2... It's not the end of BW unless you make it the end.
Way to miss the point completely.
Those of us who are longtime fans of BW wanted SC2 to be the next step in the evolution of the game. We wanted it to be an improvement; something better built while standing on the shoulders of giants. Instead, what we got were huge steps backwards (or sideways into C&C territory).
The SC2 design team's philosophy has clearly been geared towards profitability (i.e. attracting the much larger casual crowd) and justifying their jobs (i.e. making things different for the sake of making them different). While some of that is good and necessary to ensure the continued growth of Starcraft, it's a long-term disaster in the making. For those of us who have loved Starcraft for years, that's unacceptable, and that's why we're trying our best to educate, spread the word, and hopefully convince Blizzard to listen to reason.
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On June 18 2012 17:14 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 16:53 Morfildur wrote:On June 18 2012 16:30 ArvickHero wrote:On June 18 2012 16:26 Benjamin99 wrote:On June 18 2012 16:14 Jumperer wrote:On June 18 2012 15:59 Benjamin99 wrote:On June 18 2012 15:43 Tyrant0 wrote:On June 18 2012 15:42 lorkac wrote:On June 18 2012 15:39 Tyrant0 wrote:On June 18 2012 14:09 Benjamin99 wrote:
[quote]
No I dont troll, My point is starcraft 2 got nothing todo with BW just like it got nothing todo with warcraft 3. Yea it might have mechanics and spells that are similar but isnt that becuase the games are made from the same company?
I really cant understand why BW fans keep trying to make starcraft 2 into BW. They are not the same just like football and handball arnt the same yea they might both be using a round ball to play the game but thats about it!
How can you write this in the same sentence you claim not to be trolling? Because he honestly believes that they are different games? Theres a distinct difference in wording. Believing that they are different games is not the same as the two games having nothing to do with each other. Ofcourse the games got something todo with eachother but thats mostly becuase of a smart business concept using name recognition to sell a new RTS game to new users and old customers. When I tryed BW it felt so completly different I really felt I was playing a completly new game. And proberly the same thing happend when BW,C&C and warcraft 3 players tryed starcraft 2 for the first time. Im a big fan of RTS games but each game are pretty unique you cant really compare them only thing they got in commen are they are RTS games. So I stand by my opinion and btw plz refrain from calling me a troll just becuase I dont got the same opinion as others OH SHIT, I TRIED TO PLAY STARCRAFT AND IT FELT DIFFERENT FROM OTHER RTS GAMES. OTHER PEOPLE MUST FEEL THE SAME WAY I FEEL TOO BECAUSE I AM THE STANDARD HUMAN THEREFORE I AUTOMATICALLY KNOW HOW EVERYONE FEELS. IN CONCLUSION, YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO COMPARE THEM BECAUSE THEY FEEL DIFFERENT. DID I MENTION THAT I'M ALSO A BIG FAN OF RTS GAMES!!!!!! First of all, learn how to type properly. How do you expect people to take you seriously? It's fucking tried, not "tryed" and Yes motherfucker I can compare them as the post below explain. [stolen post from another thread] On May 31 2012 03:01 captainshards wrote: But, a minor rant here, ive noticed so much use of the whole "objective/subjective" argument to validate ANYTHING and ANY opinion online. It seems as if people learn the definitions of those words and run rampant trying to teach the world a lesson in logic. But what never gets said is that sometimes when you use a theory or a concept, its totally great until you realize that life and reality isnt always summed up by theory and concept. There are realities. You can say al day long that there is no right and wrong its all opinion but we are trying to live in a society that functions. A "tool". And a tool can be judged at how good of a tool it is and objectivity/subjectivity loses some of its shine in these types of discussions. You and i both can argue which hammer is better but in the end there is a chance one hammer will break while the other does not. Therefore that is a better hammer. A better tool. Why? Because it does a better job of putting nails in. It doesnt matter opinion, either the nail goes in or does not. One could argue that the elements of BW just happen to have more tendency to create the types of situations that lead to surprise or tension in the average human beings mind. Therefore it is a better tool for that job. If you have two calculators and one gives you back a wrong answer every random 20 calculations that is a worse tool and it doesnt matter what your opinion is because that particular tool is designed to calculate accurately. This is not a point im making to argue for or against BW vs SC2 because i personally dont care anymore which one is better. Nor do i know in the end which game will be "better". Im not even remotely qualified to predict the future of this game. I hoe for it to be better because i like RTS games and i like high level play. I just get tired of "objective/subjective" arguments that are treated as the end all of logic because they arent. A tool can be judged. Arguing which game is better and feeling satisfied that there is no answer is worse for the game than questioning what actually might be better in either one and trying to reach for that goal to make SC2 the best tool it can possibly be to entertain human beings. If you cite subjectivity etc and call it a day you never move beyond that and you never really solve any problems that may exist. The only thing you do that way is feel better about your own opinion. You are really agressive maybe you should take a chill pill when something you've loved/admired is being replaced by what you see as completely inadequate, I think it's a little difficult to be "chill" You can still play BW, it didn't get replaced. I think there are also still some BW tournaments that you can watch and you are always free to start hosting your own BW tournaments with others that don't like Starcraft 2... It's not the end of BW unless you make it the end. Way to miss the point completely. Those of us who are longtime fans of BW wanted SC2 to be the next step in the evolution of the game. We wanted it to be an improvement; something better built while standing on the shoulders of giants. Instead, what we got were huge steps backwards (or sideways into C&C territory). The SC2 design team's philosophy has clearly been geared towards profitability (i.e. attracting the much larger casual crowd) and justifying their jobs (i.e. making things different for the sake of making them different). While some of that is good and necessary to ensure the continued growth of Starcraft, it's a long-term disaster in the making. For those of us who have loved Starcraft for years, that's unacceptable, and that's why we're trying our best to educate, spread the word, and hopefully convince Blizzard to listen to reason.
I'm so glad that there are still people who think like me. That's exactly my thought. But there isn't just a problem with SC2, it's about the whole Blizzard. Just take a look at Diablo 3, it has same problems compared to Diablo 1/2 like SC2 compared to BW. For example: you don't choose skills, you just get them for free (no brainer), or the whole crafting with random attributes.
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EPT
