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Poll: 1st VetoTal'Darim Altar (162) 70% Entombed Valley (23) 10% Cloud Kingdom LE (11) 5% Condemned Ridge (11) 5% Ohana LE (8) 3% Antiga Shipyard (7) 3% Daybreak LE (4) 2% Shakuras Plateau (4) 2% 230 total votes Your vote: 1st Veto (Vote): Cloud Kingdom LE
(Vote): Daybreak LE
(Vote): Ohana LE
(Vote): Antiga Shipyard
(Vote): Entombed Valley
(Vote): Tal'Darim Altar
(Vote): Shakuras Plateau
(Vote): Condemned Ridge
Poll: 2nd VetoEntombed Valley (92) 52% Shakuras Plateau (26) 15% Antiga Shipyard (17) 10% Condemned Ridge (13) 7% Tal'Darim Altar (12) 7% Ohana LE (8) 5% Cloud Kingdom LE (7) 4% Daybreak LE (2) 1% 177 total votes Your vote: 2nd Veto (Vote): Cloud Kingdom LE
(Vote): Daybreak LE
(Vote): Ohana LE
(Vote): Antiga Shipyard
(Vote): Entombed Valley
(Vote): Tal'Darim Altar
(Vote): Shakuras Plateau
(Vote): Condemned Ridge
Poll: 3rd VetoShakuras Plateau (40) 28% Antiga Shipyard (34) 23% Condemned Ridge (25) 17% Entombed Valley (15) 10% Tal'Darim Altar (13) 9% Ohana LE (8) 6% Cloud Kingdom LE (6) 4% Daybreak LE (4) 3% 145 total votes Your vote: 3rd Veto (Vote): Cloud Kingdom LE
(Vote): Daybreak LE
(Vote): Ohana LE
(Vote): Antiga Shipyard
(Vote): Entombed Valley
(Vote): Tal'Darim Altar
(Vote): Shakuras Plateau
(Vote): Condemned Ridge
Here are my veto choices:
Tal'Darim Altar
Rocked 3rd, easy for P/T to blind counter 2 base play or set up an all-in at a far away 3rd if you pick that. No ramp makes ZvZ all about early game cheese.
Shakuras Plateau
Bad for ZvT and ZvP due to chokes, middle, base distances, late game, etc. Pretty decent for ZvZ though sometimes a 3rd can be hard to hold.
Antiga Shipyard
Bad for ZvT mostly, due to the close spawns, middle, and the problem of taking a 4th base.
These were my vetoes last season as well, actually. I like Entombed Valley despite close spawns and easy 3rd base for P/T, as it's simply a fun map that encourages a variety of games even though 3 base play is extremely common. Ohana is pretty bad due to how spread out all the bases are and the small map size. It has some rough chokes that really hurt zerg too. I wish Korhal tournament edition was added, as I actually really enjoy the LE of it and the modifications seem to make it even better. I haven't made up my mind about the new map, but given that the rocks are no longer at the third I am willing to give it a try as it looks different.
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Here is the map pool for anyone needing it:
Condemned Ridge
Antiga Shipyard
Cloud Kingdom
Daybreak LE
Entombed Valley
Metropolis
Ohana LE
Shakuras Plateau
Tal'Darim Altar LE
I am vetoing Tal'darim, Entombed, and maybe the new map. With new updates, I will give it a chance though.
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Why would Zerg ever veto TDA? Its freewin every time you draw a ZvP on that map.. Its Muta heaven and Protoss needs half their tech tree to wall off. TDA Zerg forever!
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I was wondering, isn't there also another map that is going to be removed? In the map pool update here, they say that they only want 8 maps in the ladder map pool, and they want to remove older maps. For this to work, they need to remove one unannounced map, probably Tal Darim Altar or Shakuras Plateau. In this logic, my map vetoes will probably be Entombed Valley(close positions :S), Tal Darim or Shakuras (or both if I have to, since they are old and I dislike the gameplay on Shakuras), and then most probably Condemned ridge, but I do have to give it a chance. Well, can't wait for new season!
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veto taldarim, entombed, shakuras for me
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On June 12 2012 12:06 Masvidal wrote:
Why would Zerg ever veto TDA? Its freewin every time you draw a ZvP on that map.. Its Muta heaven and Protoss needs half their tech tree to wall off. TDA Zerg forever!
As I said it's easy for protoss to blind counter 2 base (muta or infestor) play. It's a horrible map for ZvP.
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On June 12 2012 12:06 ZealotKiller wrote:I was wondering, isn't there also another map that is going to be removed? In the map pool update here, they say that they only want 8 maps in the ladder map pool, and they want to remove older maps. For this to work, they need to remove one unannounced map, probably Tal Darim Altar or Shakuras Plateau. In this logic, my map vetoes will probably be Entombed Valley(close positions :S), Tal Darim or Shakuras (or both if I have to, since they are old and I dislike the gameplay on Shakuras), and then most probably Condemned ridge, but I do have to give it a chance. Well, can't wait for new season!
Ah, this is a great point. I am expecting Tal'Darim to be removed out of all the maps, as most people don't seem to like it unless they love to 4gate in PvP.
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Antiga for sure
Tal'darim most likely 2nd.
The rest I can deal with. Condemned Ridge looks manageable. Might even be a decent map.
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I don't really mind the map pool at this point, although it's probably because I'm one of the few Protosses who apparently doesn't mind 4gate 1gas PvP on Tal Darim and hasn't gotten tired of the old maps yet ^^
I don't really care for Ohana though (especially because of the extra opening at the natural), so that'll probably be my only downvote (as Metalopolis is gone). Condemned Ridge looks just fine at the moment, but I haven't played on it yet so I'm not sure if there'll be anything key that I dislike about it.
Since I have an extra downvote, I might just get rid of Antiga just for the hell of it... for some reason I tend to have more trouble on that map than others ::shrugs:: I'd make that decision later on though.
I like Entombed and Shakuras. I just... do. Even if they're not blatantly Protoss favored in both non-mirror match-ups. I just like the layout of the map. I feel comfortable on them, and that's what matters to me 
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Im only vetoing one map as I like to play as many maps as possible. But Tal Darim is just way too frustrating to play.
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It's so interesting to see how the meta changes. Two or three seasons ago, Tal'Darim and Shakuras were among the best zerg maps. I always have vetoed Tal'Darim and I remember having friends laugh at me for it because it was a good zerg map, now it's going to be the most vetoed zerg map (at least, that's likely).
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Condemned, TDA and Metropolis
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On June 12 2012 12:29 Torte de Lini wrote:
Condemned, TDA and Metropolis
It doesn't look like they're adding Metropolis in just yet. That map pool update may not be completely finalized yet, though, as another poster pointed out.
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I'm not a fan of Condemned at all so I'm taking Entombed Valley off the veto list in favor of that. WOOPS just found out they removed the rocks
Condemned Ridge
Shakuras Plateau
I always leave my third veto free so I can squelch a map that is coming up time after time. I think that TDA seriously sucks with the third and all but it's not the end of the world. -Oh yeah, Shakuras Plateau has always been a stupid map for anything except ZvZ in my experience.
I don't particularly like Ohana or close position enabled Antiga but I simply do not like playing zerg on Shakazulu or Condemned Ridge.
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On June 12 2012 12:30 oOOoOphidian wrote:It doesn't look like they're adding Metropolis in just yet. That map pool update may not be completely finalized yet, though, as another poster pointed out.
Oh Thank God! I hate Metropolis!
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TDA, Shakuras, Condemned.
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Do people really think Antiga is better than Shakuras for Zergs?
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I generally have more fun on Antiga than I do on Shakuras. I don't know how you define better but since I"m not aspiring to be a triple crown grandmaster progamer; I say Antiga is better than Shakuras.
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a tad more variety in the map pool would have been nice
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blizzard needs to up their game and add more fresh GOOD maps every season.
i'd like to see Whirlwind to replace Tal Darim... and more ESV maps. everyone has adopted the ESV maps and for the most part like them, blizzard should just take a risk and add the next hot map. they know what they're doing.
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OMG new map?
damn it's not atlantis spaceship lol
damn sitll taldarim really...
wow, condemned ridge looks pretty good!
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On June 12 2012 13:19 jimbob615 wrote:
blizzard needs to up their game and add more fresh GOOD maps every season.
i'd like to see Whirlwind to replace Tal Darim... and more ESV maps. everyone has adopted the ESV maps and for the most part like them, blizzard should just take a risk and add the next hot map. they know what they're doing.
Hell yeah Whirlwind is an amazing map! Im only playing Sc2 for a month now and I liked Shakura and Antiga a lot eventhough im Zerg, im surprised to see other zergs hating on them. My 3 vetos are on 1v1 maps because I always hated 1v1 map back in bw because its so easy to all in/cheese at the start of the game.
I might reconsider my choices after reading all your posts though..
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I agree with the poll. Same maps as I have banned this season. I wish Blizzard would get their act together a little more--Zerg really gets punished more than the other races when the maps aren't good.
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I don't see what this thread accomplishes. Obviously zergs are going to veto balanced maps and keep the Z favored ones in.
Daybreak, Ohana, Cloud Kingdom vetos, here I come!
Also, not all ESV maps are good. Cloud kingdom is PvT heaven. So is condemned ridge by the looks of it. Super easy 3 base turtle P.
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I don't know why Shakuras and Tal'Darim are still in the map pool. Both are just so incredibly out-dated and somehow feel even older than Metalopolis. Not only that, but Shakuras is a nightmare to play in anything but ZvZ.
The question is, which one of these not to veto?
Shakuras
Tal'Darim
Entombed
Antiga
I'm thinking about giving Entombed a chance because it seems to favor very late-game macro style games (at least in tournies).
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Tal'Darim, Shakuras and Antiga because Entombed is the least shitty of the shitty maps.
It's still shitty though.
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Probably just Tal'Darim..maybe Shakuras too if i get annoyed.
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I'm actually starting to consider vetoing Ohana more seriously now. I have like a 10% win rate on it. T_T
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Shakuras - My winrate is bad on this map.
Maybe Taldarim because of ZvPs where I can get cannon blocked my nat so easily and forced to 1 base for a while. maybe 6 pooling on this map would be the solution . Gonna give some tries before vetoing
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Definitely TDA.
ZvT
Easy for hellions runby and abusive siege tank position at the natural.
No fast third can be taken unless taken the 4th which is vulnerable to drops and etc.
ZvP
No fast third.
2 base sucks vs toss.
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Isn't TDA the most balanced map in the ladder pool? At least that's what the playhem stats showed.
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One thing I don't get is how Shakuras is bad for ZvP. If you can survive the 2 base all-in, it's extremely easy to turtle on 4+ bases behind a spine wall, and later a Broodlord/Infestor/Spine slowpush through the center is basically unstoppable, and impossible to walk around for the Toss. The same is true for Ohana, albeit to a lesser extent. Finally, defending a third against the roach max is extremely hard on Shakuras. Why exactly wouldn't you want to ZvP on it? I'm probably going to vote it down, now that there's no Metalopolis.
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#1 Condemned for sure. Chokes everywhere in the middle. I don't see any place where I want to engage a protoss or terran ball.
#2 Entombed Valley. The third design is so toss favored in PvZ.
#3 TDA, I hate ZvZ here. Everything's too fast and volatile. That expansion needs to be a lot closer to the main choke and main expo if I ever want to defend against anything Zerg.
Nothing against rocks for any of these maps. I feel Zerg gets overpowered whenever there's a free close 3rd like Metalopolis.
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The people who denounce condemned for having chokes: are you sure you are talking about chokes and not about line of sight blockers?
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TDA, Shakuras, Entombed.
The new map without rocks on the third is better than Shakuras.
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TDA (mother of rocks, batman), Entombed (holy crap close pos) and.... hmmm.
I understand the reasoning people veto shakuras but I really really really like this map.
Antiga is..... meh. Did they remove the gold and force cross? otherwise vetoes as third.
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Tal'darim, Condemned and Entombed.
The problem with Condemned? Dear god, have you people seen the high ground above the third? Fucking ridiculous. Once people start playing and getting used to this map, Terrans will win every single macro TvZ because Zergs will not actually be able to take that base in a timely fashion or without producing scores of units first.
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I will veto the following maps :
- Entombed Valley
- Shakuras Plateau
- Antiga Shipyard
Basically the same maps as last season for me. Surprised about the hate TDA gets from Zergs, I played most of my best games on that map. The rocks at the 3rd are a pain, which is why I believe it gets the hate, but I just plant my hatchery next to the rocks in case of a FFE and end up turning it into a macro hatch later on once the rocks are broken.
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On June 12 2012 23:43 Terrorcore wrote:I will veto the following maps : - Entombed Valley
- Shakuras Plateau
- Antiga Shipyard
Basically the same maps as last season for me. Surprised about the hate TDA gets from Zergs, I played most of my best games on that map. The rocks at the 3rd are a pain, which is why I believe it gets the hate, but I just plant my hatchery next to the rocks in case of a FFE and end up turning it into a macro hatch later on once the rocks are broken.
Yeah, I used to do that too, but is really hard to hold a 7/6 gate there, some times having 2 hatchs is even worse.
And ZvZ is TERRIBLE on this map, you have to go 14/14 almost all the time.
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On June 12 2012 23:46 NasKe_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 23:43 Terrorcore wrote:I will veto the following maps : - Entombed Valley
- Shakuras Plateau
- Antiga Shipyard
Basically the same maps as last season for me. Surprised about the hate TDA gets from Zergs, I played most of my best games on that map. The rocks at the 3rd are a pain, which is why I believe it gets the hate, but I just plant my hatchery next to the rocks in case of a FFE and end up turning it into a macro hatch later on once the rocks are broken. Yeah, I used to do that too, but is really hard to hold a 7/6 gate there, some times having 2 hatchs is even worse. And ZvZ is TERRIBLE on this map, you have to go 14/14 almost all the time.
I usually open 14/14 against Z and then pressure.. which is probably why i'm used to it.
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It is so incredibly frustrating to only have 5 maps in the pool unless you don't block three maps that are incredibly disadvantageous to zerg. I'd rather have 15 maps in the pool and 5 that I can veto instead of having 8 and 3 to veto.
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Veto for:
TDA + Condemned + Antiga/Shakuras
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On June 12 2012 23:31 Louis8k8 wrote:
#2 Entombed Valley. The third design is so toss favored in PvZ.
What does this even mean?
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Probably TDA, Shakuras... maybe the new map depending on how it plays out, but they removed the rocks at the 3rd so that map does have hope.
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On June 13 2012 00:01 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 23:31 Louis8k8 wrote:
#2 Entombed Valley. The third design is so toss favored in PvZ.
What does this even mean?
The current ZvP builds rely on denying the 3rd of the Protoss or at the very least doing multi-pronged attacks to do any kind of damage. This is impossible on Entombed.
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On June 13 2012 00:06 RPR_Tempest wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 00:01 Shiori wrote:On June 12 2012 23:31 Louis8k8 wrote:
#2 Entombed Valley. The third design is so toss favored in PvZ.
What does this even mean? The current ZvP builds rely on denying the 3rd of the Protoss or at the very least doing multi-pronged attacks to do any kind of damage. This is impossible on Entombed.
By "the current ZvP builds" you mean 3base Roach, which is a pretty lame build to watch and to play against simply because it requires a very specific response from the Protoss and very minimal execution from the Zerg, on top of the former having very little room for error. I wouldn't mind this if it weren't clear that Zerg is totally capable (and probably even better at it) of playing macro games just due to the strength of Hive tech, specifically BL/Infestor compositions.
No offense, but if you're only winning when you deny a Protoss player's third, I don't think you understand the way the matchup works.
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On June 13 2012 00:09 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 00:06 RPR_Tempest wrote:On June 13 2012 00:01 Shiori wrote:On June 12 2012 23:31 Louis8k8 wrote:
#2 Entombed Valley. The third design is so toss favored in PvZ.
What does this even mean? The current ZvP builds rely on denying the 3rd of the Protoss or at the very least doing multi-pronged attacks to do any kind of damage. This is impossible on Entombed. By "the current ZvP builds" you mean 3base Roach, which is a pretty lame build to watch and to play against simply because it requires a very specific response from the Protoss and very minimal execution from the Zerg, on top of the former having very little room for error. I wouldn't mind this if it weren't clear that Zerg is totally capable (and probably even better at it) of playing macro games just due to the strength of Hive tech, specifically BL/Infestor compositions. No offense, but if you're only winning when you deny a Protoss player's third, I don't think you understand the way the matchup works.
I thought Entombed was considered a good PvZ map because of the way Protoss can expand all over his side while running circles around the slow Broodlord/Infestor ball. But I guess "My 200/200 roach a-move doesn't work! This map is so awful for Zerg!" is what you complain about when there's nothing else left. See the same guy's post about how bad the new map is because he might need to make units in order to take his third in ZvT.
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Entombed until they get rid of close third spawns.
Ohana because it is just sooo small lol
My third veto is still pending, but it may be put on the new map if i find some really big flaw with the way it is set up. Otherwise i'll veto whichever map pisses me off first :D (will be between Antiga/Shakuras/TDA) TDA because seige tanks at nat are ridiculous.
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On June 12 2012 23:18 Xlancer wrote:
Isn't TDA the most balanced map in the ladder pool? At least that's what the playhem stats showed.
The stats show perceived balance because it's a lottery/coin flip map, naturally over a large sample size a lottery/coin flip situation ends up yielding pretty predictable and balanced statistics.
If you flipped a coin 5000 times you'd get a relatively decent balance of results at the end of it.
It's a terrible map and people are foolish to think it's balanced based on those stats.
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wow we've come to a day where the map pool is so good for zergs that they veto TDA :D
i remember vetoing it because of tvz
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TDA, Shakuras and antiga
these maps are just really tough for zerg.
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On June 13 2012 01:26 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 00:09 Shiori wrote:On June 13 2012 00:06 RPR_Tempest wrote:On June 13 2012 00:01 Shiori wrote:On June 12 2012 23:31 Louis8k8 wrote:
#2 Entombed Valley. The third design is so toss favored in PvZ.
What does this even mean? The current ZvP builds rely on denying the 3rd of the Protoss or at the very least doing multi-pronged attacks to do any kind of damage. This is impossible on Entombed. By "the current ZvP builds" you mean 3base Roach, which is a pretty lame build to watch and to play against simply because it requires a very specific response from the Protoss and very minimal execution from the Zerg, on top of the former having very little room for error. I wouldn't mind this if it weren't clear that Zerg is totally capable (and probably even better at it) of playing macro games just due to the strength of Hive tech, specifically BL/Infestor compositions. No offense, but if you're only winning when you deny a Protoss player's third, I don't think you understand the way the matchup works. I thought Entombed was considered a good PvZ map because of the way Protoss can expand all over his side while running circles around the slow Broodlord/Infestor ball. But I guess "My 200/200 roach a-move doesn't work! This map is so awful for Zerg!" is what you complain about when there's nothing else left. See the same guy's post about how bad the new map is because he might need to make units in order to take his third in ZvT.
It actually just really peeves me when Zerg players argue that a map is imbalanced because they can't simply split the map with Spine Crawlers and then slow push with BL/Infestor, or when P/T players can actually secure a third before 13 minutes without metagaming. I understand that people want to win, but has it become so bad that only maps that you can take free wins in macro games on are balanced? Look at Shakuras. The only reason that map isn't Zerg city is because every Protoss worth his salt will 2base all-in and every Terran can just split the map with mech. If you took a look at standard macro PvZs on Shakuras that reach the 3-4+ base mark, I'd be willing to bet that Zerg takes most of them, simply because defending the third is awkward (though not especially difficult, usually) and because in a split map situation there's not much room to run around the Zerg death machine.
So what? Well, how come a map like Shakuras is thumbs-downed by Zergs because they don't want to play 2base all-ins, but a map like Entombed is also thumbs-downed because Protoss can actually take a reasonably timed third? If both sorts of maps were removed, what's left? Horrible maps like Metalopolis on which it's virtually impossible to ever take a third? This sense of entitlement has really increased since release, and while it may sound biased, it's primarily a Zerg phenomenon. No Protoss/Terran player asks for any particular features on a map other than the ability to take a reasonable (not necessarily early) third. That's really it. Zerg players, meanwhile, are fine with condemning Protoss players to Gateway expands if it suits them. I have no trouble with Zerg taking a pre-5minute third against me when I FFE. Yeah, it's some shady game design that this is the way the matchup works, but it's not fundamentally broken. I don't understand why Zergs won't extend me the same courtesy of actually being able to expand safely. 3base Roach is an abomination of design and is precisely the sort of build that should exist LESS in this game, not more. Maps on which it's more effective are shitty PvZ maps, because it's already such a good strategy. No further argument necessary.
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I never thought I'd live to see the day when Taldarim was Zerg's first choice veto. Seems like just yesterday that Zergs were jumping for joy at the sight of it.
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First i was baffled by antiga ... then i reminded myself that there is a gold in the middle here. Taldarim the same, then oh right rocks on the third. Don't worry i also know the real reasons (to lazy to adapt to the map)
My favorite 3 maps as Zerg are the top downvoted ones ... Just downvoting daybreak as zerg as its to easy to win there.
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On June 12 2012 12:06 Masvidal wrote:
Why would Zerg ever veto TDA? Its freewin every time you draw a ZvP on that map.. Its Muta heaven and Protoss needs half their tech tree to wall off. TDA Zerg forever!
TDA is a bad zvp map lol. It favors toss in tournaments anyway. The fact toss can forge fe and be on even bases as the zerg for a long time makes it hard for zerg and taking a far away third is to dangerous.
From what I have read/heard to every pro zerg hates taldarim to (any coincidence that when drg got it he 6 pools? Same with nestea? they always seem to 6 pool on that map).
For the OP, entombed, TDA and shakuras plateau are my veto's. All bad maps that I hate playing on :D
On June 13 2012 02:07 Imperium11 wrote:
I never thought I'd live to see the day when Taldarim was Zerg's first choice veto. Seems like just yesterday that Zergs were jumping for joy at the sight of it.
Yeah kind of reminds me of when xelnaga used to be a good zerg map lolol. Good times
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At this point, I don't hate any of the maps enough to veto them, so gj blizzard!
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On June 13 2012 02:04 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 01:26 Toadvine wrote:On June 13 2012 00:09 Shiori wrote:On June 13 2012 00:06 RPR_Tempest wrote:On June 13 2012 00:01 Shiori wrote:On June 12 2012 23:31 Louis8k8 wrote:
#2 Entombed Valley. The third design is so toss favored in PvZ.
What does this even mean? The current ZvP builds rely on denying the 3rd of the Protoss or at the very least doing multi-pronged attacks to do any kind of damage. This is impossible on Entombed. By "the current ZvP builds" you mean 3base Roach, which is a pretty lame build to watch and to play against simply because it requires a very specific response from the Protoss and very minimal execution from the Zerg, on top of the former having very little room for error. I wouldn't mind this if it weren't clear that Zerg is totally capable (and probably even better at it) of playing macro games just due to the strength of Hive tech, specifically BL/Infestor compositions. No offense, but if you're only winning when you deny a Protoss player's third, I don't think you understand the way the matchup works. I thought Entombed was considered a good PvZ map because of the way Protoss can expand all over his side while running circles around the slow Broodlord/Infestor ball. But I guess "My 200/200 roach a-move doesn't work! This map is so awful for Zerg!" is what you complain about when there's nothing else left. See the same guy's post about how bad the new map is because he might need to make units in order to take his third in ZvT. It actually just really peeves me when Zerg players argue that a map is imbalanced because they can't simply split the map with Spine Crawlers and then slow push with BL/Infestor, or when P/T players can actually secure a third before 13 minutes without metagaming. I understand that people want to win, but has it become so bad that only maps that you can take free wins in macro games on are balanced? Look at Shakuras. The only reason that map isn't Zerg city is because every Protoss worth his salt will 2base all-in and every Terran can just split the map with mech. If you took a look at standard macro PvZs on Shakuras that reach the 3-4+ base mark, I'd be willing to bet that Zerg takes most of them, simply because defending the third is awkward (though not especially difficult, usually) and because in a split map situation there's not much room to run around the Zerg death machine. So what? Well, how come a map like Shakuras is thumbs-downed by Zergs because they don't want to play 2base all-ins, but a map like Entombed is also thumbs-downed because Protoss can actually take a reasonably timed third? If both sorts of maps were removed, what's left? Horrible maps like Metalopolis on which it's virtually impossible to ever take a third? This sense of entitlement has really increased since release, and while it may sound biased, it's primarily a Zerg phenomenon. No Protoss/Terran player asks for any particular features on a map other than the ability to take a reasonable (not necessarily early) third. That's really it. Zerg players, meanwhile, are fine with condemning Protoss players to Gateway expands if it suits them. I have no trouble with Zerg taking a pre-5minute third against me when I FFE. Yeah, it's some shady game design that this is the way the matchup works, but it's not fundamentally broken. I don't understand why Zergs won't extend me the same courtesy of actually being able to expand safely. 3base Roach is an abomination of design and is precisely the sort of build that should exist LESS in this game, not more. Maps on which it's more effective are shitty PvZ maps, because it's already such a good strategy. No further argument necessary.
To be fair, you don't see pro Zerg players complain about these things anymore. If you asked Stephano whether Entombed Valley was Protoss-favoured, he'd probably laugh in your face, because he can actually play lategame ZvP just as well as roach max. The complaining you see around these parts mostly comes from bad Diamond/Masters Zergs, who are still stuck in early 2011, where 3 base Protoss means an unstoppable deathball. So the timing push before hive tech that maybe kills a base and some units/spines in a high-level game, they simply lose to, and conclude that they must deny the Protoss third with their 200/200 roaches, and any map that makes this difficult is Protoss favored.
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On June 13 2012 03:07 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 02:04 Shiori wrote:On June 13 2012 01:26 Toadvine wrote:On June 13 2012 00:09 Shiori wrote:On June 13 2012 00:06 RPR_Tempest wrote:On June 13 2012 00:01 Shiori wrote:On June 12 2012 23:31 Louis8k8 wrote:
#2 Entombed Valley. The third design is so toss favored in PvZ.
What does this even mean? The current ZvP builds rely on denying the 3rd of the Protoss or at the very least doing multi-pronged attacks to do any kind of damage. This is impossible on Entombed. By "the current ZvP builds" you mean 3base Roach, which is a pretty lame build to watch and to play against simply because it requires a very specific response from the Protoss and very minimal execution from the Zerg, on top of the former having very little room for error. I wouldn't mind this if it weren't clear that Zerg is totally capable (and probably even better at it) of playing macro games just due to the strength of Hive tech, specifically BL/Infestor compositions. No offense, but if you're only winning when you deny a Protoss player's third, I don't think you understand the way the matchup works. I thought Entombed was considered a good PvZ map because of the way Protoss can expand all over his side while running circles around the slow Broodlord/Infestor ball. But I guess "My 200/200 roach a-move doesn't work! This map is so awful for Zerg!" is what you complain about when there's nothing else left. See the same guy's post about how bad the new map is because he might need to make units in order to take his third in ZvT. It actually just really peeves me when Zerg players argue that a map is imbalanced because they can't simply split the map with Spine Crawlers and then slow push with BL/Infestor, or when P/T players can actually secure a third before 13 minutes without metagaming. I understand that people want to win, but has it become so bad that only maps that you can take free wins in macro games on are balanced? Look at Shakuras. The only reason that map isn't Zerg city is because every Protoss worth his salt will 2base all-in and every Terran can just split the map with mech. If you took a look at standard macro PvZs on Shakuras that reach the 3-4+ base mark, I'd be willing to bet that Zerg takes most of them, simply because defending the third is awkward (though not especially difficult, usually) and because in a split map situation there's not much room to run around the Zerg death machine. So what? Well, how come a map like Shakuras is thumbs-downed by Zergs because they don't want to play 2base all-ins, but a map like Entombed is also thumbs-downed because Protoss can actually take a reasonably timed third? If both sorts of maps were removed, what's left? Horrible maps like Metalopolis on which it's virtually impossible to ever take a third? This sense of entitlement has really increased since release, and while it may sound biased, it's primarily a Zerg phenomenon. No Protoss/Terran player asks for any particular features on a map other than the ability to take a reasonable (not necessarily early) third. That's really it. Zerg players, meanwhile, are fine with condemning Protoss players to Gateway expands if it suits them. I have no trouble with Zerg taking a pre-5minute third against me when I FFE. Yeah, it's some shady game design that this is the way the matchup works, but it's not fundamentally broken. I don't understand why Zergs won't extend me the same courtesy of actually being able to expand safely. 3base Roach is an abomination of design and is precisely the sort of build that should exist LESS in this game, not more. Maps on which it's more effective are shitty PvZ maps, because it's already such a good strategy. No further argument necessary. To be fair, you don't see pro Zerg players complain about these things anymore. If you asked Stephano whether Entombed Valley was Protoss-favoured, he'd probably laugh in your face, because he can actually play lategame ZvP just as well as roach max. The complaining you see around these parts mostly comes from bad Diamond/Masters Zergs, who are still stuck in early 2011, where 3 base Protoss means an unstoppable deathball. So the timing push before hive tech that maybe kills a base and some units/spines in a high-level game, they simply lose to, and conclude that they must deny the Protoss third with their 200/200 roaches, and any map that makes this difficult is Protoss favored. Free fast third for toss means that the push before broodlords (which kills most of zergs) will come faster and harder. Now you can at least delay third and force Toss to make some units.
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It's funny I say PvZ is toss favored on Entombed and you guys all assume 200/200 roaches vs a toss expanding a 3rd. My problem with the 3rd is that both the nat and 3rd'smineral lines face towards the main and there is no way to harrass the toss economy via mutalisks as most toss go blinkers. I don't like playing aggression-less macro games as Zerg. I want to have the option to both play macro or aggressive.
Referencing pro's doens't mean anything as they aren't the only people playing this game. And every pro of any race will tell you a completely different story.
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United States1353 Posts
You should have a "none" option. I would only veto Entombed and TDA
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I play with no vetos so that every game is unique and I can develop different skillsets for different situations and maps, whether it's in my favor or not. It's good practice.
It's only ladder.
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I'm playing random now but my Z vetoes would look like:
1. Tal'Darim
2. Entombed
3. Shakurus/Cloud Kingdom
I'd pick Shakurus to veto over Cloud just because it's an old map and the center but I am not a huge fan of Cloud either unless I'm P.
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Entombed only.
Even though I dislike TDA vs X and Antiga vs T, you still have to play those maps in tournaments/clan wars so I won't veto them  .
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I'll definately veto Condemned Ridge in the beginning. I don't know that map at all. When i have taken a closer look at it and like it I might take it into my ladder list. Besides that, I really don't like playing on Antiga. Since I'm not involved in tournament play yet, I'll veto that one as well. Just personal preferance for me.
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Played one game on Condemned Ridge immediately saw the multiple problems with the map in ZvT and ZvP. Doom drops on one of your third bases with tank marine and you would just lose your third. No third base anywhere that could be easily secured without going really far out. The rush distance close by ground is just too close which is a problem in all match ups.
And then you get to the easily secured tank position to get a very fast third for terran which makes me just cringe at the thought of playing ZvT on that map. My first game actually ran into a terran at close positions and it was pretty impossible to punish him and he more or less made tank marine and it took me teching really heavy to win and just accepting the fact that I was never going to get a great eco to get up that late game. I won but just barely and the other dude barely broke a sweat it seemed like he just turtled into the third and then went for the kill.
So for all those reasons im going to immediately want to burn this map with fire. (side note I probably hate entombed valley more but im going to veto both because I really don't think they are very fair.)
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On June 13 2012 03:36 Keyz1 wrote:
I play with no vetos so that every game is unique and I can develop different skillsets for different situations and maps, whether it's in my favor or not. It's good practice.
It's only ladder.
That is also true for me. The last map i used a veto on was Delta-Quadrant. Sometimes i think about vetoing Entombed (close spawn is really hard - especially in ZvT), but then i tell myself that it's just ladder...
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i love these threads because i veto all the most popular maps because i dont like zvz :D
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Tal'Darim altar and entombed without blinking, those maps are just made for screwing with any type of economy build, and to benefit namely terran with an/almost free third base.
I just unvetoed all maps to gain a more clear understanding of the game, and it's funny how I manage to get matched up with cross-race on those specific maps the three first games. :D
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On June 13 2012 05:45 Pros wrote:
i love these threads because i veto all the most popular maps because i dont like zvz :D
Cool, that doesn't work though. You get matched up and then the map is selected afterwards.
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On June 13 2012 03:35 Mr Showtime wrote:
You should have a "none" option. I would only veto Entombed and TDA
Those people don't have to participate in the poll. I definitely don't care to see the number of people who will blindly play on terrible maps. People used to like Xel'Naga Caverns, too. I made the thread to generate discussion on the playability of each map in the pool and to get a good idea of what maps I will veto. I'm certainly willing to read posts about why people will not veto certain maps or why they like certain unpopular maps, but the polls are really the least important part of this thread.
The main reason I veto maps is when they severely limit the strategies I can use, or make it extremely easy for other players to do whatever they want and hit strong timings without me being able to have adequate defense or aggressive potential myself. For example, on Tal'Darim, if you do opt to break the rocks, the third base still sucks for zerg because the chokes make any attack have a concave and they can easily abuse FF/blink/colo/tanks/fungal/etc.
Notice how Cloud Kingdom has features that let protoss or terran easily take a third and can make attacks very strong due to chokes. It doesn't get vetoed because zerg is not restricted by rocks and there are multiple attack paths that make it possible to be aggressive somewhat.
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TDA because I hate the low ground tank abuse at the nat and rocks at the 3rd, Shakuras because of the chokes/ease of taking a 3rd for T, Entombed because of free 3rd for P/T.
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On June 13 2012 05:45 Pros wrote:
i love these threads because i veto all the most popular maps because i dont like zvz :D
Doesn't work. Your opponent is chosen before maps.
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On June 13 2012 07:43 BoxingKangaroo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 05:45 Pros wrote:
i love these threads because i veto all the most popular maps because i dont like zvz :D Doesn't work. Your opponent is chosen before maps.
If a Zerg Veto's Antiga Shipyard (for example) and not Shakuras (just examples), it should be more likely to not get matched against Zergs if you Veto Shakuras and not Antiga Shipyard right? Since there are map preferations for any race, it should theoretically work. But of course, I don't know to what extent.
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On June 13 2012 02:21 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 12:06 Masvidal wrote:
Why would Zerg ever veto TDA? Its freewin every time you draw a ZvP on that map.. Its Muta heaven and Protoss needs half their tech tree to wall off. TDA Zerg forever! TDA is a bad zvp map lol. It favors toss in tournaments anyway. The fact toss can forge fe and be on even bases as the zerg for a long time makes it hard for zerg and taking a far away third is to dangerous. From what I have read/heard to every pro zerg hates taldarim to (any coincidence that when drg got it he 6 pools? Same with nestea? they always seem to 6 pool on that map). For the OP, entombed, TDA and shakuras plateau are my veto's. All bad maps that I hate playing on :D Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 02:07 Imperium11 wrote:
I never thought I'd live to see the day when Taldarim was Zerg's first choice veto. Seems like just yesterday that Zergs were jumping for joy at the sight of it. Yeah kind of reminds me of when xelnaga used to be a good zerg map lolol. Good times
I find myself wondering if that DRG 6 pool had anything to do with the condemned rocks removal. Browder hearing Artosis say "well he doesn't really have many other options on this map because of the rocks on the third" might have softened him a bit on it
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On June 13 2012 02:07 Imperium11 wrote:
I never thought I'd live to see the day when Taldarim was Zerg's first choice veto. Seems like just yesterday that Zergs were jumping for joy at the sight of it.
The map is bad for zvp because of the rocks(which were added by Blizzard) at the 3rd. It's bad for zvt because of the natural with the big neon "seige me" sign.
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On June 13 2012 05:42 Firlefanz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 03:36 Keyz1 wrote:
I play with no vetos so that every game is unique and I can develop different skillsets for different situations and maps, whether it's in my favor or not. It's good practice.
It's only ladder. That is also true for me. The last map i used a veto on was Delta-Quadrant. Sometimes i think about vetoing Entombed (close spawn is really hard - especially in ZvT), but then i tell myself that it's just ladder...
I started trying this "no veto" thing towards the end of season 7, but I'm not enjoying it too much. I had some interesting experiences on Shakuras, Entombed, and TDA (my normal vetoes), but most of those interesting moments were not pleasant ones. It seems that on those maps, where certain zerg builds/approaches are expected (split map zvt on shakuras, three base tech zvp on entombed, two base zvp on TDA), many opponents go for a timing or all-in to exploit that expectation, and i have a tough time recognizing it. part of it is not having an extra overlord in position should the first sacrificial overlord get shut down, i think, but just the fact that we're playing from a bad position in terms of options just irks me, win or lose.
I'll likely re-veto shakuras, i don't think there's anything new to say there.
entombed is a map i want to like, but the narrow ramp to the main and dual ramps to the natural-third seem to be perfect for T and P: the narrow helping to stop runbys (relatively minor issue), and the dual ramps being easy to defend--unless you're zerg and need spines to hold. this is without even talking about close position issues, and north-south positions where a tank or colossus atop the blocked midway base gives your opponent a great midway control point, shortening the distances even further. any insights on how to play zvt/zvp there (in terms of map tactics more than general strategy) would be appreciated. i probably won't re-veto it.
TDA I want to like as well, and do like when games go extra-long; i feel like no other map has that post-endgame expo "game" where you are trying to get random expos up while shutting down the opponent's, sending small forces out to harass, etc. at that point, TDA really feels like it punishes players who give up positions, don't retake towers, and a-move whole armies against small threats, and I like that. The problem is--and let me add that everything from here to the end of this paragraph is not new or news at all--Those Rocks at the Third generally prevent the game from getting that far. I have tried expanding to the "fourth" with the random half-wall of grass out front, both the one below the main and the one nearer the third, and have had some success (the latter tends to be a better choice unless that puts it right under the opponent's main). But on top of the difficulty securing the third, tank/colossus abuse of the natural gets crazy sometimes. Creep spread is a decent solution for the first push or two, and the towers help spot pushes before they get there, but the exposed nature of the natural is enough to lose me games outright (I'm sure you all understand). It's so efficient to just plop two tanks at the bottom and ferry marines up and down as needed. a decent solution seems to be having a spore and two spines there waiting, but then they shimmy over to the ramp and it's now just a normal strength marine-tank army--but now you're down three drones and a good chunk of money. yeah, just writing this makes me want to go veto it.
tl;dr No vetoes right now, but I think bad zerg maps are especially bad because not only do you get pushed into certain choices, those choices are predictable and, as a result, often blindly countered. Will likely re-veto shakuras and TDA, but give entombed another chance.
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On June 13 2012 17:18 Schashlik wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 07:43 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On June 13 2012 05:45 Pros wrote:
i love these threads because i veto all the most popular maps because i dont like zvz :D Doesn't work. Your opponent is chosen before maps. If a Zerg Veto's Antiga Shipyard (for example) and not Shakuras (just examples), it should be more likely to not get matched against Zergs if you Veto Shakuras and not Antiga Shipyard right? Since there are map preferations for any race, it should theoretically work. But of course, I don't know to what extent.
Reread the post you quoted. Your veto choices have nothing to do with the opponents you are pitted against. After an opponent is found, a map that you two both don't have vetoed is then chosen.
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1). TDA - the reasons have been beaten to death
2). Entombed - I may unveto this map in the coming weeks. Originally I veto'd it because I could not, for the life of me, beat a protoss when I clearly had superior macro. In one game I had a 90 supply lead when I moved in. It was so easily defended that I didn't even kill all the units. After dying to a death ball a la the easy-to-take third I rage quit and veto'd it immediately. My game has developed a lot more since I was trying to max on roach/hydra with 2/2 at 13 minutes (even the 12 minute roach/ling max). Now that I'm working through late game transitions I want to play against late game toss. Most ZvP's are against 2 base all-ins, so it would be nice to have a map back that toss consider great for late game.
3). Condemned Ridge - Wow, this map is HUGE! I played a ZvT yesterday against a random and concluded that I hated the map. Since my opponent was random he wasn't as good as the normal high plat/diamond terran, but if he was I wouldn't have stood a chance. The cliffs over the third adds more area that needs to be defended against drops, especially if they get a drop down and then defend the ramp. Multiprong aggression was also hard to deal with since supporting units at the spawn point had to run so far. Finally the myriad of chokes was heaven for a siege line and I only won the game at the grace of my opponent clumping bio for fungals. Other parts of my macro need a lot more work, so defending drop play has hit the backburner. I want to focus on that a while, so I don't see me taking this map off veto this season.
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new one, taldarim and entombed
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EPT
