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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 05 2012 08:58 Megakenny wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 08:56 Defacer wrote:On June 05 2012 08:41 teamsolid wrote:On June 05 2012 08:39 Defacer wrote:
I don't know shit about hacking.
On June 05 2012 08:39 Defacer wrote:
Camera blocks aren't definitive. If someone can't provide ironclad proof that Spades hacks, or then I highly recommend they STFU.
I lol'd Nice logic there. What I meant was just because a camera is stationary for a moment -- even 9 seconds -- doesn't automatically mean anything. If you take your hands off a keyboard to answer your phone, or toggle between programs to change your music, I'm sure your camera will stay stationary for 9 seconds. All I know is there is a shitload of people with anedoctal or circumstantial evidence ready to burn Spades at the stake. It's a little ridiculous. Orb and Destiny's 'trangressions' at least had proof. I can understand other pro's speculating. But seeing the TL Peanut Gallery chime in with their silliness? I'm sure hes opening other programs and answering the phone during a showmatch, you're just as bad as the rest of the "TL Peanut Gallery".
Hey, I'm not the one trying to ruin a guy's career.
I wait until more replays to show up before I pass judgement. Spades has played probably thousands of games, so if he does hack regularly, there should be more than enough evidence out there.
Not just a couple of replays and a few pro's wondering aloud why his playstyle is so wonky.
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It's ridiculous that this is how we deal with hackers in this community. It's about time a community like TL step-up and create a decisive and effective system of dealing with hackers as this kind of public shaming/hanging of a professional player is not working in any way. This kind of attack is not meant to better the community or simply expose a hacker, it's a personal attack that effectively destroys the career of an individual who has spent years trying to put together a career around a game that he loves. It's completely unfair that one poster, probably someone who Spades has offended in the past, can write exaggerated accounts from one game and effectively ruin any chance Spades has at retrieving his dignity. These kind of threads are what makes the SC2 community appear so immature and unprofessional and the fact that this discussion has been allowed is embarrassing for all SC2 players in general. If you truly want a system to handle hackers, then it's time TL develop some system of a court of justice, similar to the types of things they use to handle disconnects in the TSL. Without coming up with a more professional and refined approach to hacking problems, it's likely the SC2 will never see a solution to hackers, nor a solution to emotional players looking to destroy the careers of people who have hurt them in the past.
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On June 05 2012 08:37 avilo wrote:I actually have accused spades b4 of hacking / called him out on it during a game I played on my stream before. He was former teammate so I gave him benefit of the doubt, but it seemed painfully obvious that he was gaining extraordinary perception in this game from ladder: http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=264521A few things make it painfully obvious. First off, he's doing an exact mirror build off of zero scouting which is incredibly rare to happen. But that's not where the lulz come. I then end up getting contained, but I decided to purposely "bait" him a couple times and see how he reacts during this contain to verify if he's hacking or not. Every high level TvTer can verify how questionable and suspicious the decisions are from 13:00 min in this game during the contain. First, note the perfect placement of his tanks just outside of the range of my already pre-sieged tanks...could be luck, but suspicious to start. Next, I purposely make a viking flower as if I am going to leap frog tanks to gain vision over his tanks. Spades has zero vikings. 13:23, he looks where my tanks are, send a marine forward, standard to confirm, but he has no scans, and he doesn't seem to be afraid at all of my tanks moving forward at all... 13:30 he gets energy to scan now, that every high level TvT would save if they want to keep this contain up, otherwise they may just retreat without vikings for vision. 13:34 HE MULES, still not saving scans...leaving every tank sieged still, while knowing that I have the viking advantage for vision, notice my tanks have not moved an inch and he is not worrying about his tanks at all even though he knows he has no way to get vision...WTF? 13:41 This is where my detective work comes in. I make a viking flower pretending that i am about to leap frog my tanks forward. But I leave all my tanks purposely sieged in the same spot. He obviously is looking through the fog of war and sees that I have not moved them, every good player here throws up a scan, but he knows they are in the same exact position as before, so he does not move his tanks away, and he used the mule. He does walk a marine forward though. 13:50 He has a scan available now. 14:09 Another marine moves forward 14:30 Notice this is the first time that I unsiege any tanks near the contain, and what I plan next is to purposely feint a leapfrog forward and then insta-move back to see if he insta-scans. Keep in mind, every single instance before this that I have viking flowered as if leapfrogging forward, he has never reacted at all, no scan. 14:36 I make the final "bait" move here and I purposely do not viking flower to see how he reacts. The instant I move the tanks forward he insta-moves his screen to that location, insta-scans, and I did not siege because, like I said, I was already suspicious at that point and was curious how he would react. Incredibly suspicious imo...some would say incredibly obvious as well. I was streaming at the time, and even more curious was spades was immediately on my stream out of no where to immediately defend himself...-_-
More people need to see this.
Edit: And if there actually is a situation where Spades does an impossible move (selecting non-hotkeyed SCV from off-screen) then this needs to be highlighted and is really all the proof we need. If there is no such move people need to stop mentioning it.
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Hahahahahaha, oh my god, this is almost worst than hacking, enjoy your ads guys! As i said early, the NA "scene" only lives for/thanks to drama.
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On June 05 2012 08:59 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 08:56 Defacer wrote:On June 05 2012 08:41 teamsolid wrote:On June 05 2012 08:39 Defacer wrote:
I don't know shit about hacking.
On June 05 2012 08:39 Defacer wrote:
Camera blocks aren't definitive. If someone can't provide ironclad proof that Spades hacks, or then I highly recommend they STFU.
I lol'd Nice logic there. What I meant was just because a camera is stationary for a moment -- even 9 seconds -- doesn't automatically mean anything. If you take your hands off a keyboard to answer your phone, or toggle between programs to change your music, I'm sure your camera will stay stationary for 9 seconds. All I know is there is a shitload of people with anedoctal or circumstantial evidence ready to burn Spades at the stake. It's a little ridiculous. Orb and Destiny's 'trangressions' at least had proof. I can understand other pro's speculating. But seeing the TL Peanut Gallery chime in with their silliness? Considering courts of law allow for circumstantial evidence, and the burden of proof in a non-criminal case is not that high, it's more than acceptable to use it. I highly doubt Spades would be checking his phone on multiple occasions in the middle of a starcraft match, much less one with monetary value and one being streamed.
I don't know how professional or seriously Spades takes showmatches. Do you?
IdrA, InControl, Catz -- I've seen plenty of pro's change their music, stretch their arms, turn on and off skype, even walk away from their keyboard while streaming a game.
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On June 05 2012 09:11 legaton wrote:Hahahahahaha, oh my god, this is almost worst than hacking, enjoy your ads guys! As i said early, the NA "scene" only lives for/thanks to drama.
It would be funny if not for the victims of the drama
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I got to game 4 before i agree that there's too much going on.
Game 4: Meta
I'm more than willing to defend his scouting scv not having to have to look at it to turn it around and send it back to base. Sometimes I just want to know the position of the enemy, and he sees that it is blocked off on the minimap and sends it back.
However, to this point:
Game 4: Meta
Everything true, really suspicous at 7:30 where he moves his army towards the hellions without seeing, despite the fact he was moving back and forth in same place 10 seconds ago.
random chance
7:30 is all I needed to see. I watched it multiple times and there's no doubt in my mind that he sees the medivac dropping units and he's waiting for them to unload and start moving away from the cliff before he engages. No. I encourage you to watch this one and look at his clicks. He knows they are headed to the top right and takes the angle necessary to cut them off, despite not technically being able to see it. I was okay with the other stuff in the other games, timing related things he could have been familiar with by watching previous replays of this player etc, but this one play at 7:30 on game 4 Meta was just too much. Sorry sir, I have to agree with the OP.
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On June 05 2012 09:11 legaton wrote:Hahahahahaha, oh my god, this is almost worst than hacking, enjoy your ads guys! As i said early, the NA "scene" only lives for/thanks to drama.
Don't worry, they're going to empirically prove that he was hacking on stream. Because they're really talented and relevant.
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that would be a shame considering he's a decent guy. innocent until proven guilty though. also he's not very good.
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I'll be the first to admit that after reading the OP was was pretty sure Spades was hacking. I decided to watch the replays for myself, going through at normal speed, watching for mouse activity etc, and as a terran player, i'm 100% certain Spades was not hacking. I honestly think people are jumping to conclusions based on one person's assumptions, and selective reasoning.
Anyway here's some of my opinons after watching the some of the replays:
Game 1: Antiga Shipyard.
6:15 When he scouted he didn't see any evidence of fast gas, however, before scanning he already starts to build a bay for defending against cloack-banshee.
-Early engineering bays are not uncommon when you haven't scouted your opponents opener. Typically it is even earlier because if you wait till the standard scan at 6:15 you wont have turrets in time for cloak.
9:11 9 sec camera block.
-he is constantly cycling through the scv's at his mineral line which he can not do if he is looking away since they are not hotkeyed.
9:30 New banshee from LucifroN is leaving his base, he moves his vikings, that had been waiting at the entry of his natural for over 30 sec to cover his main.
-at first i was suspicious of this, but after watching the other replays there is a common trait which isn't at all suprising. Spades is just ralling vikings in positions to ward off drops/banshees in general. On entombed (game 2) he is constantly ralling his vikings to the most likely drop edge of his base, then moves them where he needs them. He even keeps the vikings there throughout most of the time he doesn't have map control, like most terran would, even though luci isn't sending anything there.
-also, again, if you watch is selection, even though his camera isn't moving in his base, he is cycling through/moving/building with scv's/units not hotkeyed in the camera shot and cant be looking away from his base during the time the banshee is built.
10:45 He gets 2 marines to send them to the xel'naga, however, his camera doesn't move to the center of the map, it gets blocked on his army.
-most likely an attack move sent through the minimap. Not uncommon to send 2 marines this late in the game because if your opponent has the tower, the smoke limits vision and thus your single marine will die. Again, this late in the game, you'd be sure to send 2 marines since it is likely that your opponent has control of it.
11:02 8 sec camera block
-He did hand select the starport at 11:02 since it is not hotkeyed by itself so he was at least looking there. However, Spades does not appear to select or interact with any non-hotkeyed units so he "could" have been looking at his opponents base if he did camera blocked. or since there wasn't much going on he could have been slightly idle. again, to each his own.
Game 2: Entombed Valley
2:14 He sends the SCV without looking at where he's sending it and the camera gets blocked for 4 secs. However, he doesn't even look at LucifroN's base when the SCV reach it.
-The scv was sent via the minimap, a lot of players do it this way. Although, when it arrives, yes he doesn't pay attention to it. Could just be a derp moment, to each their own opinion.
-In regards to the camera block, if you look at his apm, everything falls to 0, most likely this is an input lag issue, or maybe he took this time to reset his mouse. None of the other supposed blocks dropped the amp straight to 0.
6:00 Even if he didn't even watch it, on the minimap you can see LucifroN had a gas, he had done the EXACT same openning as on game 1, however Spades doesn't make bay, neither raven, he goes directly for a viking and waste ALL his energy on a mule, as if he knew 100% sure cloack banshees weren't comming (weird as he didn't even scan).
-From what his minimap can tell him, there was no double gas, cant get cloak on one gas so no need for turrets.
7:47 Notice how he sieges the tanks on the EXACT position for not being shot by the bunker
-imo just smart positioning, might look suspicious to some but to each their own.
13:42 LucifroN advances 2 marines to kill Spades marine at the right of the map, would be obvious to think that LucifroN's army is comming behind, however spades doesn't move his army for about 30 sec.
-It looks like he was waiting for that 4th tank, and for stim to get closer to finishing. Only he knows why he waited.
14:10 LucifroN's army is getting out of his base to that spot, Spades doesn't see ANYTHING, but he sieges his tanks right in the elevation and move his marines out of his base and puts them next to the spot LucifroN is going.
-he has the center watchtower, lucifron just scanned his army which indicates Lucifron was guaging his army size, and marines just cleared Spades scoute marine on that path 20 seconds earlier. Setting up on that cliff is the only logical decision. The op even stats that this would be obvious.
20:30 first scan to LucifroN's base in the whole game!! Spots all his army and the third cc.
-he was using most of his prior scans to keep lucifron's tanks from killing off his tanks since he lost air superiority. Yes late scan, but it wasn't like Spades had a choice. Also, his medvacs at 16:40 saw anything worth seeing in his main.
I'm still going through the replays, but imo, I think everyone is jumping to conclusions.
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I decided to went looking for maphacks, being doubtful in the OP explanation of this magic camera lock thingy. I indeed found some stuff including what I believe what is the best thing out there :
-Press F6 to lock/unlock camera, wich means you have to press F6 each time you want to actually use your maphack. It also comes with an obs production tab so looking in fog is useless.
-You can also lock onto another player camera mouvement like you do in a replay, but ingame if anyone is interested.
-Production Tab
-Forcefield duration bar (lol ? )
This thing is by far the best shit I could find out there. I do not believe there is some "automatic" camera lock like the OP claims. Better, I can almost certainly claim there is no such thing. This combined with the fact that the replays, even if a bit suspicious, aren't even close to being conclusive. How many successful drop did Luci sneak in ? Nah I don't believe Spades to be a maphacker. If you want to expose someone, at least do it with your main account.
Peace.
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On June 05 2012 08:55 yawnoC wrote:
I know its a little bit off topic but is there any way for TL to find out who "drolets" really is? Could then possible see if it is just someone who is trying to tarnish spades image.
Pretty sure it doesn't matter who points out the facts, as long as they're justified and well-defended >.>
It sounds more credible coming from a pro-gamer, as they're the ones with more game knowledge, but it doesn't make it any less true if someone else comes along and can actually make solid points with a lot of evidence backing it up (for either side- Spades hacking or Spades not hacking).
(Just like how 2+2=4 isn't any less true if a mathematician or a 10 year old says it, despite the fact that the former is the expert, as long as both people can explain it properly.)
It's just not good if random people start bandwagoning and saying, "Yeah I think yeah he's a hacker sounds good burn him  ".
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Can anyone check replays of spade's games steamed from his perspective and see if he often clicks in the fog of war for scouting scv's etc, because his dependence on the minimap for EVERYTHING seems pretty sus, and if we see on replays where he was streaming that he typically looks at the fog of war it makes the evidence much more damning.
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So people jump on the bandwagon that this guy is cheating just because some guy with a 6 day old account thinks some actions don't make any sense according to the SC2 Progamer Bible. Nice.
Since it apparently went 7 games, wouldn't it be kind of coutnerintuitive to not think he's just getting lucky with these "suspicious" actions? Has anyone checked to if he was blantantly throwing the games that he lost?
When you scrutinize only one player's replays, it becomes a lot easier to find flaws and strange occurances in their gameplay. However, from what I can gather, many things from these games tend to happen in almost every game. I bet that you can find other strange occurrances when watching a replayed perspective from any pro player. I honestly can't remember who said this, but they said that even the best Koreans play a little strange/risky/luck based.
As a CS 1.6 player that gets lucky with a lot of shots, I can say that if you just watched an hour where I was doing well, you would probably think I was a hacker. Headshots from the air, wallshots, and just random kills in general. However, if you insist on watching me play every time I'm on, you will most likely come to the conclusion that I'm not hacking.
So far, we only have (I think) eight replays of Spades playing. If you can get a hold of replays from everything else he has ever done, you should really analyze those as well. Not that I'm saying that Spades isn't hacking, though. I'm just saying that you should probably have more than two or three hours worth of replays as evidence to back up a claim like this. Especially if the player in question happens to have thousands of games.
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On June 05 2012 09:15 Peleus wrote:
Can anyone check replays of spade's games steamed from his perspective and see if he often clicks in the fog of war for scouting scv's etc, because his dependence on the minimap for EVERYTHING seems pretty sus, and if we see on replays where he was streaming that he typically looks at the fog of war it makes the evidence much more damning.
On June 05 2012 08:55 Jacobs Ladder wrote:While I'm still highly suspicious, and even inclined to believe he hacks I just spent 10 minutes watching a vod of his and noticed two things. First, he does send his scouting SCVs through fog. He even forgot to micro it for a while in the enemy's base. Second, he does scan on the minimap THEN click to the location at about ~10 minutes. http://www.twitch.tv/kingspades/b/320339839Vod
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United States12235 Posts
On June 05 2012 09:04 LuckyFool wrote:
I would like to comment on this topic.
I have slightly suspected Spades of hacking since early March or so. I was contacted to organize a thread for a showmatch between Spades and lastshadow and I believe it was lastshadow who mentioned to me that Spades possibly had a suspiciously good ladder record relative to what he had in the past, and what his tournament results would indicate. At the time I believe Spades was top 16 NA Grandmasters with over 60% winrate. which was definitely a better record than he ever really had in the past from his pre korea days or even late 2011. After this conversation (if spades actually does hack now, ls is pretty genius lol) I remember that being the first seed of suspicion being planted for me. I started looking into a few replays I could find but didn't note anything really interesting or definitive and I hadn't run into him on ladder in quite a while so I didn't really have any personal material to go off of. I ended up never really taking that much time or found anything definitive I could go public with or anything. I really honestly believed Spades didn't hack. He has been going to tons of live events posting modest results, nothing really amazing but to post amazing results at any major lan event is a pretty ridiculous accomplishment. Plus Spades had already been caught hacking in broodwar and seemed to be taking sc2 pretty seriously as far as career endeavors go so I really believed he wouldn't dare risk hacking again.
After that I pretty much didn't try to research anything further but I did start to note Spades results in tournaments and on streams or lan events where he couldn't hack or would be caught. His results were nothing that special but like I said posting great results at big events is super hard so it didn't really add much suspicion. I did note a slight discrepancy with having such a solid ladder record vs who he was losing to at events though. I don't have all his results handy but I know at least he was at MLG Columbus and IPL4 (two tournaments during the times of suspicion for me). Typically players with really solid ladder records do decently in open bracket play against unknown or lesser known opponents. but may struggle against the very top players in bo3/bo5. This is just a general trend I notice when it's mid tier pro vs mid tier pro in open bracket play. A more well rounded ladder player will be better off in that sort of setting than a player who is better with time to prepare for a match.
anyway I'm sort of rambling now and while I haven't had a chance to watch the replays so I can't personally accuse or anything I just wanted to share some of my thoughts to hopefully help bring some clarity to the situation.
The Starcraft community has been burned in the past by hackers who have claimed to change their ways and go legit, only to fall back on hacking. Just look at Testie and TreK. Both players for YEARS had people backing their side of the story. "This game was just luck", "that game was random chance", "this game wasn't conclusive enough". When they were caught hacking later, only with conclusive proof, they were almost universally shunned. Those two examples are why I would say the community has today adopted a "once a hacker, always a hacker" stance. There are some players like TT1 who haven't had accusations brought against them since their hacking incident, but a lot of people in the community don't want to take that chance.
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On June 05 2012 09:04 LuckyFool wrote:
I would like to comment on this topic.
I have slightly suspected Spades of hacking since early March or so. I was contacted to organize a thread for a showmatch between Spades and lastshadow and I believe it was lastshadow who mentioned to me that Spades possibly had a suspiciously good ladder record relative to what he had in the past, and what his tournament results would indicate. At the time I believe Spades was top 16 NA Grandmasters with over 60% winrate. which was definitely a better record than he ever really had in the past from his pre korea days or even late 2011. After this conversation (if spades actually does hack now, ls is pretty genius lol) I remember that being the first seed of suspicion being planted for me. I started looking into a few replays I could find but didn't note anything really interesting or definitive and I hadn't run into him on ladder in quite a while so I didn't really have any personal material to go off of. I ended up never really taking that much time or found anything definitive I could go public with or anything. I really honestly believed Spades didn't hack. He has been going to tons of live events posting modest results, nothing really amazing but to post amazing results at any major lan event is a pretty ridiculous accomplishment. Plus Spades had already been caught hacking in broodwar and seemed to be taking sc2 pretty seriously as far as career endeavors go so I really believed he wouldn't dare risk hacking again.
After that I pretty much didn't try to research anything further but I did start to note Spades results in tournaments and on streams or lan events where he couldn't hack or would be caught. His results were nothing that special but like I said posting great results at big events is super hard so it didn't really add much suspicion. I did note a slight discrepancy with having such a solid ladder record vs who he was losing to at events though. I don't have all his results handy but I know at least he was at MLG Columbus and IPL4 (two tournaments during the times of suspicion for me). Typically players with really solid ladder records do decently in open bracket play against unknown or lesser known opponents. but may struggle against the very top players in bo3/bo5. This is just a general trend I notice when it's mid tier pro vs mid tier pro in open bracket play. A more well rounded ladder player will be better off in that sort of setting than a player who is better with time to prepare for a match.
anyway I'm sort of rambling now and while I haven't had a chance to watch the replays so I can't personally accuse or anything I just wanted to share some of my thoughts to hopefully help bring some clarity to the situation.
I appreciate the insight, but I must admit that this post which made no claims or points did not add any clarity to the situation. It only made me confused as to what you were implying. That last line just made me chuckle a little. 
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On June 05 2012 08:15 Artok wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 08:13 tsuxiit wrote:On June 05 2012 08:01 Hyperiok wrote:On June 05 2012 07:55 tsuxiit wrote:I know many other top GM players that maphack as well. Most of us are friends. The most successful of these that I know is a respected pro-gamer, on a team, that has won over €15,000 in prize money. Almost all of that money was won from online tournaments. Surprise, surprise, this guy has one of the most feared ZvZ in the world. To be honest, I am not sure how this person has remain uncaught. He refrains from attending LAN tournaments even though by now, he definitely has the resources to attend them. I think I've only seen him once in a LAN tournament. All of evidence is incredibly circumstantial, like the fact that Nerchio has a 70% winrate in ZvZ on TLPD. But if you consider the idea that both these players are, in fact, using these programs to cheat and exploit, the story gets incredibly interesting. I don't think Nerchio maphacks, he had some very close ZvZs against Hyun at Dreamhack (I believe he lost 1-2 but very nearly 2-0'd him) and has done well in some other LANs, and if he relied on maphacking then that would be sort of hard to do. Well (and this is, again, purely hypothetical), the fact that he has performed somewhat decently at several LANs would not mean that he doesn't hack. Any sort-of skilled high masters player with confidence can take games off a pro, even if you can't do it consistently or without having a crutch to lean on in practice or online tournaments that makes you intimidating. And while his performances were decent, they weren't really 70% winrate good; he's always played his best at home. 1.are you insane? youre comparing nerchio to high masters? 2.its like that for most of the people, nerves exist, sorry to disappoint you, but progamers arent robots.
Also: the level of competition is totally different at a LAN than it is on the Ladder. On ladder the pros are playing masters-grand masters players who are scrubs like you and me while at the LAN the other players are all high GM on teams, sponsored and just generally better.
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If I were Spades and innocent I'd upload my last 50 replays (dated just prior to the accusation) from the ladder to clear my name.
His career is on the line and he has nothing to lose and everything to gain by providing the replays.
If Spades isn't willing to do that then I think its fair to say he has something very real to hide.
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EPT
