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On March 29 2012 23:20 Aemilia wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 20:58 Ragoo wrote:On March 29 2012 20:56 CaptainCrush wrote:
Awful lot of whining in here.... I dont really see the big deal of making a 6min1g into a normal expansion. Grow up children, we at least get some awesome maps this season and we had a chance to vote for which ones we wanted! Their was barely any choice cos most of the GSL maps are horrible tbh. Dual Sight? Xel'Naga Fortress? what the.... I only liked Daybreak and they changed that unnecessarily... Have to laugh at some people. So if GSL maps are horrible, what exactly is a good map?
Ragoo knows his shit. Just because it's a GSL map does not make it good. Examples include Crossfire, Dual Sight, Crevasse, Calm Before the Storm and many many more. There have been great ones as well (Daybreak) but at this point I think the GSL mappers are putting out more bad maps then good maps.
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Shattered was decent imo, still can't believe antiga is in the map pool...
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I guess I'm veto'ing Taldarim, Metropolis and Korhal
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Sigh why do they always pull this "ladder edition" crap on every good map there is.
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I hate daybreak it such a ridic zerg favored map...
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Among all the shit that we have given blizzard, the maps ARE getting a LOT better. I wish it would have been duel sight instead of metro though
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On March 29 2012 17:21 Sumadin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 16:48 Existor wrote:
I can't understand, whats bad with creep tumors at those islands?
Every faction will need some gas, time and resources to kill it. You think, zergs can destroy it easier and faster? Yes, but they need to transport Drone, using nydus for 300 minerals and 300 gas, or use Overlord drop, that costs same (100/100 speed and 200/200 for transport upgrade).
Terrans will need to wait, when creep disapears, but they can more easily destroy it, using tank splash damage, or 270-minerals scanner, or raven.
Protosses have air, cheap observer, they only need creep dissapear time. The problem is how different it reacts to races. Terrans and Zerg really doesn't care they can still take it in the same time. Protoss on the other hand is screwed. Here is what i wrote about the creep islands a while back (wall of text you have been warned) : + Show Spoiler +Gotta admit i am not liking the Neutral creep turmor island expantions. Island expantions by default always favor terran. This is not only because of lift off but also because of turrets which are superior to their counterparts because of possible Upgrades and repairs. When even Blizzard say they can't make islands balanced you really have to consider if it can work.
The problem i find with a creep tumor is also that it reacts so differently to different races.
Protoss:
Protoss are already a clear losser in terms of Island expantions because their only option for taking them is through a warp prism. Now they also have to get a Observer to make space and even then they have to wait for the creep to reside. Protoss don't really have other options for removing the tumor as stargate doesn't provide mobile detection. You could drop a cannon on island but then it is just going to take even longer to take the expansion.
Zerg:
Zerg is slightly better in this regard as they do have 2 options for getting a drone to the island. Nydus and Overlord drops. The latter is probably preferred as it doesn't give it self away instantly. Both of these require lair so the detection is not really an issue. Also once the tumor has been dealt with Zergs can instantly take the expansion as Creep doesn't prevent zerg buildings.
Terran:
As mentioned Terran already has many advantages regarding islands which is why even blizzard has given up on them. Besides Turrets and Lift off terran also have scan which gives acces to much earlier removal of the tumor, potentially through a Banshee rush. A raven could also do the job. While the creep still has to reside terrans can have their base ready and even make it an orbital before that. Once the creep goes away terrans can instantly land the finished base which overall might be even faster than what Zergs can currently do. Drops are also a much more common tactic for terran and medivacs has multible usages besides taking the expantion. Hence terran still has a clear advantage regarding these islands, with or without tumor. TLDR: Toss is royally boned in regard to the expansion, Zerg and Terran don't really care.
Would a neutral depot make the islands better?
People still have to invest time/resources/attention to killing it off but it's more fair for all races.
On March 30 2012 00:55 KimJongChill wrote:
Shattered was decent imo, still can't believe antiga is in the map pool...
What do you have against Antiga?
It's by far the best map Blizz ever came up with and that's without forced spawns.
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On March 30 2012 00:52 Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 23:20 Aemilia wrote:On March 29 2012 20:58 Ragoo wrote:On March 29 2012 20:56 CaptainCrush wrote:
Awful lot of whining in here.... I dont really see the big deal of making a 6min1g into a normal expansion. Grow up children, we at least get some awesome maps this season and we had a chance to vote for which ones we wanted! Their was barely any choice cos most of the GSL maps are horrible tbh. Dual Sight? Xel'Naga Fortress? what the.... I only liked Daybreak and they changed that unnecessarily... Have to laugh at some people. So if GSL maps are horrible, what exactly is a good map? Ragoo knows his shit. Just because it's a GSL map does not make it good. Examples include Crossfire, Dual Sight, Crevasse, Calm Before the Storm and many many more. There have been great ones as well (Daybreak) but at this point I think the GSL mappers are putting out more bad maps then good maps.
Several points:
1) If your standards for good maps are that those are horrible maps then clearly basically every map ever made bar a tiny minority are bad maps
2) I think you're taking maps out of context from the time when they were made. When Crevasse came out it was about a million times better than most other maps in existence
3) Crossfire and Dual Sight take a lot of shit but Crossfire has produced many of the greatest games ever played in Sc2 including Nestea vs sC, Nestea vs TOP and Clide vs Tester. Another thing is that a lot of people whine that there's no unique maps but Crossfire is a genuinely unique map that requires it's own strategies and produces many great and unique games, but people still shit on it.
4) I mean no offence to ESV but by comparison to GSL your maps are barely played. I feel a lot of people bandwagon on all ESV maps and say how awesome they are when the majority have barely been tested in tournament play at all. People also confuse a map getting old/boring with it being bad.
Taldarim Alter is the best map ever made. It's dull now sure because it's been around too long but that map was a gigantic leap forward for Sc2 and has produced countless amazing games as well as setting many of the standard every new map has.
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+ Show Spoiler +On March 29 2012 18:35 Morfildur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 18:22 yoigen wrote:
As if the 8 minerals patches on daybreak would change anything.
get real
They extra minerals and gas change the map dynamic completely. Before, it was a decision between: i take that base and gain map control but have lower gas income, which means slower tech vs i take the other base, have higher income and therefor faster tech but i won't gain the map control. Now it's "yay, good income + map control" It will mostly play a role in XvT matchups since terrans can place a PF with some tanks there, but it's still a huge change.
As a terran you want your 3rd most of the times to be an orbital, so you would take this expansion as your 4th. Economy shouldn't really be a problem, since you won't have that many scvs to saturate all your bases perfectly anyway. In most games your tech will be fully developed by then, and for things such as mass raven you should have your complete half of the map.
I don't really see taking this base as a 3rd with a planetary being useful. Against protoss you need the 3rd mule to get ahead economically and against Zerg i don't wanna miss the extra scan and mule either.
Without a planetary it is hard to defend compared to the normal 3rd, because it is very open and you can be attacked from 3 different angles.
just my 2cents
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I was so hopeful Blizzard would keep the maps as intended. They've gotten so much better as of late. -sigh-.
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Wtf is wrong with blizzard, the things they change make no fucking sense <.<
Oh and seriously out with metalopolis already...
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United States7483 Posts
On March 30 2012 02:13 Aemilia wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 00:52 Diamond wrote:On March 29 2012 23:20 Aemilia wrote:On March 29 2012 20:58 Ragoo wrote:On March 29 2012 20:56 CaptainCrush wrote:
Awful lot of whining in here.... I dont really see the big deal of making a 6min1g into a normal expansion. Grow up children, we at least get some awesome maps this season and we had a chance to vote for which ones we wanted! Their was barely any choice cos most of the GSL maps are horrible tbh. Dual Sight? Xel'Naga Fortress? what the.... I only liked Daybreak and they changed that unnecessarily... Have to laugh at some people. So if GSL maps are horrible, what exactly is a good map? Ragoo knows his shit. Just because it's a GSL map does not make it good. Examples include Crossfire, Dual Sight, Crevasse, Calm Before the Storm and many many more. There have been great ones as well (Daybreak) but at this point I think the GSL mappers are putting out more bad maps then good maps. Several points: 1) If your standards for good maps are that those are horrible maps then clearly basically every map ever made bar a tiny minority are bad maps 2) I think you're taking maps out of context from the time when they were made. When Crevasse came out it was about a million times better than most other maps in existence 3) Crossfire and Dual Sight take a lot of shit but Crossfire has produced many of the greatest games ever played in Sc2 including Nestea vs sC, Nestea vs TOP and Clide vs Tester. Another thing is that a lot of people whine that there's no unique maps but Crossfire is a genuinely unique map that requires it's own strategies and produces many great and unique games, but people still shit on it. 4) I mean no offence to ESV but by comparison to GSL your maps are barely played. I feel a lot of people bandwagon on all ESV maps and say how awesome they are when the majority have barely been tested in tournament play at all. People also confuse a map getting old/boring with it being bad. Taldarim Alter is the best map ever made. It's dull now sure because it's been around too long but that map was a gigantic leap forward for Sc2 and has produced countless amazing games as well as setting many of the standard every new map has.
People shit on crossfire because there's an entire race (Protoss) that can't play well on it. Taking a third on that map is almost impossible unless you have a huge lead as toss.
Tal'darim altar is in no way shape or form the best map ever made. PvP is awful on that map. Taking a fourth base is difficult, after you have your third expanding becomes very very hard, there simply is no logical fourth. Daybreak is a much MUCH better map. Siege tanks are way too good on tal'darim because of the design of the natural. Mutalisks are way too good on it because of how easy it is to bounce between the main and third.
We don't care about when the maps were made, because what is relevant is how the maps perform now. We need good maps for today's games.
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Honestly, anything new is better then Blizz old maps. If Blizz wants to make maps they should have one guy snort glorious amounts of cocaine/with alcohol, leave him in one room for 8 hours and he'll exit with a better map then their designers couldve made. Cocaine, mmmmm.
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I must say I'm pleasantly surprised. I was fully expecting blizzard to put rocks at the 3rd on all those maps.
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The presence of islands on Metro seems to me to indicate that Zergs and Protoss have to get either overlord transport or warp prism or an airborne attacking unit before any base trades. That seems like a pretty big advantage for Terrans, no?
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On March 30 2012 03:53 kawaiiryuko wrote:
The presence of islands on Metro seems to me to indicate that Zergs and Protoss have to get either overlord transport or warp prism or an airborne attacking unit before any base trades. That seems like a pretty big advantage for Terrans, no?
Considering how long the distances are, this is anything but a terran map.
The situation you describe is extremely rare.
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On March 29 2012 21:24 Destructicon wrote:
I know I'll probably get a lot of flak for this but.
I don't think the changes to Daybreak are as huge and as negative as people make it out to be.
What it does is allow all races to take a more forward and more aggressive 3rd instead of a more defensive 3rd.
It might be slightly more terran favored because of PFs, but I've seen zergs make due with spines, and toss with GW and cannon walls so I don't think that is an issue.
The reason why the change is in my eyes good is because it now creates an actually real choice. I've watched the GSL for a while and I can't remember the last time someone decided to take the middle base over the defensive one. The choice almost isn't there 90% of players in 90% of situations take the defensive 3rd each and every time.
On the other had everyone takes the middle base by the late game, because they need it to control space.
Now the map becomes more interesting because you have a choice between a defensive position and an offensive one.
Before it was a choice between a defensive position and an offensive one with less resources that no one every too until the late game.
Also consider, because of the size of the map and the existence of the other paths the middle base isn't too aggressive or good either. The distance from the forward 3rd to the enemy defensive 3rd is a bit shorter then the distance from nat to 3rd. On a small map like Xel'Naga Caverns I'd agree, the middle 3rd covers like 70% of the attack paths, dominates the middle and it is a gold base. Daybreak isn't in the same boat.
Lastly Daybreak is a very macro oriented and defensive map. There are indeed lots of attack paths but there are rocks blocking one of them and the other paths are very, very long. So in my opinion it might be too defensive. A perfect map in my opinion would allow aggression from the early stage that continues up till the mid then to the late game. Daybreak cuts out most of the early game stuff because of how big it is and how long the paths are.
So the change might encourage more aggression, which is good, and it does it without skewing the map into too much of an aggressive map (which isn't good either).
And lastly, why the hell are you guys complaining? We wanted a good map pool for the ladder for a long, long time, now when we finally have one you guys dare to cry? And more so when you know that Blizzard has this policy for ladder maps why are you complaining?
Either make your maps to always conform with Blizzard standards or go and argue with Blizzard about their standards, don't make a map and then be surprised and angry because they changed it, you know they will.
Since Blizzard has proven that they do listen to the community how about you guys make a combined effort to stir a educated talk to Blizzard so they change their standards. Crying here about the map changes won't do you any good, starting a well thought out discussion will do a lot more, maybe push more towards Barrin's fewer resources per base philosophy if you really hate Blizzard's standards.
The problem is this:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/sGmgj.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/VTZe4.png)
Notice the difference in the two pictures. In the first, once your army is aggressively positioned, you have two paths of attack, either because one is too well defended, because you want to pull your opponent out of position, or because you want to take advantage of numerical/supply superiority. Both attack paths are relatively the same distance for both you and your opponent.
Now look at the second picture. There's no longer an aggressive forward positioning. This is because three of the main attack paths all lead to the same spot, which is already going to be a defensive position. The last attack path is something like three times the distance, but still runs by the forward base, with little distance for your opponent to run over to defend, either sideways or backwards into his natural. This forward base is also relatively the same distance from the natural as the current third.
The problem is that they've turned it into another Blizzard map. That is to say, they've removed any semblance of strategic possibility in favor of dumbing down the game for the casuals.
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On March 30 2012 03:27 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 02:13 Aemilia wrote:On March 30 2012 00:52 Diamond wrote:On March 29 2012 23:20 Aemilia wrote:On March 29 2012 20:58 Ragoo wrote:On March 29 2012 20:56 CaptainCrush wrote:
Awful lot of whining in here.... I dont really see the big deal of making a 6min1g into a normal expansion. Grow up children, we at least get some awesome maps this season and we had a chance to vote for which ones we wanted! Their was barely any choice cos most of the GSL maps are horrible tbh. Dual Sight? Xel'Naga Fortress? what the.... I only liked Daybreak and they changed that unnecessarily... Have to laugh at some people. So if GSL maps are horrible, what exactly is a good map? Ragoo knows his shit. Just because it's a GSL map does not make it good. Examples include Crossfire, Dual Sight, Crevasse, Calm Before the Storm and many many more. There have been great ones as well (Daybreak) but at this point I think the GSL mappers are putting out more bad maps then good maps. Several points: 1) If your standards for good maps are that those are horrible maps then clearly basically every map ever made bar a tiny minority are bad maps 2) I think you're taking maps out of context from the time when they were made. When Crevasse came out it was about a million times better than most other maps in existence 3) Crossfire and Dual Sight take a lot of shit but Crossfire has produced many of the greatest games ever played in Sc2 including Nestea vs sC, Nestea vs TOP and Clide vs Tester. Another thing is that a lot of people whine that there's no unique maps but Crossfire is a genuinely unique map that requires it's own strategies and produces many great and unique games, but people still shit on it. 4) I mean no offence to ESV but by comparison to GSL your maps are barely played. I feel a lot of people bandwagon on all ESV maps and say how awesome they are when the majority have barely been tested in tournament play at all. People also confuse a map getting old/boring with it being bad. Taldarim Alter is the best map ever made. It's dull now sure because it's been around too long but that map was a gigantic leap forward for Sc2 and has produced countless amazing games as well as setting many of the standard every new map has. People shit on crossfire because there's an entire race (Protoss) that can't play well on it. Taking a third on that map is almost impossible unless you have a huge lead as toss. Tal'darim altar is in no way shape or form the best map ever made. PvP is awful on that map. Taking a fourth base is difficult, after you have your third expanding becomes very very hard, there simply is no logical fourth. Daybreak is a much MUCH better map. Siege tanks are way too good on tal'darim because of the design of the natural. Mutalisks are way too good on it because of how easy it is to bounce between the main and third. We don't care about when the maps were made, because what is relevant is how the maps perform now. We need good maps for today's games.
Perhaps this is too hard a subject for you to understand.
Think of it this way,
July is not shit at Brood War. But strictly speaking, he's pretty bad right now.
Taldarim Alter is not a shit map, it's actually the most revolutionary map so far in Sc2. The fact it's a bit dated doesn't change the fact that it has been a great map. Not to mention that when it was released, every PvP was 4 gate vs 4 gate.
and Protoss have won games on Crossfire, not to mention that most of Crossfire's run was at a time when Protoss was losing on every map.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0Vi2X.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/2msrJ.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/T51hO.jpg)
