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On March 29 2012 20:56 CaptainCrush wrote:
Awful lot of whining in here.... I dont really see the big deal of making a 6min1g into a normal expansion. Grow up children, we at least get some awesome maps this season and we had a chance to vote for which ones we wanted!
There was barely any choice cos most of the GSL maps are horrible tbh. Dual Sight? Xel'Naga Fortress? what the....
I only liked Daybreak and they changed that unnecessarily...
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Can't wait to get my ladder on, on Daybreak Metro and Ohana, like all the maps, don't really care about the changes to the mid expo or the rocks, not really a big deal tbh..
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This has completly ruined Daybreak.... why Blizzard please restore it!!!
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2v2 map pool needs some serious work, not sure why they keep ignoring it.
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4713 Posts
I know I'll probably get a lot of flak for this but.
I don't think the changes to Daybreak are as huge and as negative as people make it out to be.
What it does is allow all races to take a more forward and more aggressive 3rd instead of a more defensive 3rd.
It might be slightly more terran favored because of PFs, but I've seen zergs make due with spines, and toss with GW and cannon walls so I don't think that is an issue.
The reason why the change is in my eyes good is because it now creates an actually real choice. I've watched the GSL for a while and I can't remember the last time someone decided to take the middle base over the defensive one. The choice almost isn't there 90% of players in 90% of situations take the defensive 3rd each and every time.
On the other had everyone takes the middle base by the late game, because they need it to control space.
Now the map becomes more interesting because you have a choice between a defensive position and an offensive one.
Before it was a choice between a defensive position and an offensive one with less resources that no one every too until the late game.
Also consider, because of the size of the map and the existence of the other paths the middle base isn't too aggressive or good either. The distance from the forward 3rd to the enemy defensive 3rd is a bit shorter then the distance from nat to 3rd. On a small map like Xel'Naga Caverns I'd agree, the middle 3rd covers like 70% of the attack paths, dominates the middle and it is a gold base. Daybreak isn't in the same boat.
Lastly Daybreak is a very macro oriented and defensive map. There are indeed lots of attack paths but there are rocks blocking one of them and the other paths are very, very long. So in my opinion it might be too defensive. A perfect map in my opinion would allow aggression from the early stage that continues up till the mid then to the late game. Daybreak cuts out most of the early game stuff because of how big it is and how long the paths are.
So the change might encourage more aggression, which is good, and it does it without skewing the map into too much of an aggressive map (which isn't good either).
And lastly, why the hell are you guys complaining? We wanted a good map pool for the ladder for a long, long time, now when we finally have one you guys dare to cry? And more so when you know that Blizzard has this policy for ladder maps why are you complaining?
Either make your maps to always conform with Blizzard standards or go and argue with Blizzard about their standards, don't make a map and then be surprised and angry because they changed it, you know they will.
Since Blizzard has proven that they do listen to the community how about you guys make a combined effort to stir a educated talk to Blizzard so they change their standards. Crying here about the map changes won't do you any good, starting a well thought out discussion will do a lot more, maybe push more towards Barrin's fewer resources per base philosophy if you really hate Blizzard's standards.
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i dont care about the rocks at all, i've never even seen anyone take those expos in GSL
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Can someone explain to me what is so hard with copy and paste?
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For everyone who wants a 3rd base should veto the Ohana map its terrible i played it on some playhem tours and its just LOL.
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Blizzard insults the intelligence of the average player by thinking it's hard for them to notice a smaller base in the middle of daybreak or a neutral supply depot. LOL
Come on, give people credit. They can understand and learn.
Anyway, regardless of the changes, that is the best ladder map pool I've seen before.
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People jumping the gun again. Going to read this thread again when in a couple of months everyone realises that Blizzard's changes didn't really do much and that the GSL maps everyone wanted in aren't as balanced as they hoped.
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I'm excited for daybreak, metropilis looks retarted.
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So... Looks like only Metalopolis left to veto... And maybe Tal'Darim or Korhal
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On March 29 2012 17:21 Sumadin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 16:48 Existor wrote:
I can't understand, whats bad with creep tumors at those islands?
Every faction will need some gas, time and resources to kill it. You think, zergs can destroy it easier and faster? Yes, but they need to transport Drone, using nydus for 300 minerals and 300 gas, or use Overlord drop, that costs same (100/100 speed and 200/200 for transport upgrade).
Terrans will need to wait, when creep disapears, but they can more easily destroy it, using tank splash damage, or 270-minerals scanner, or raven.
Protosses have air, cheap observer, they only need creep dissapear time. The problem is how different it reacts to races. Terrans and Zerg really doesn't care they can still take it in the same time. Protoss on the other hand is screwed. Here is what i wrote about the creep islands a while back (wall of text you have been warned) : + Show Spoiler +Gotta admit i am not liking the Neutral creep turmor island expantions. Island expantions by default always favor terran. This is not only because of lift off but also because of turrets which are superior to their counterparts because of possible Upgrades and repairs. When even Blizzard say they can't make islands balanced you really have to consider if it can work.
The problem i find with a creep tumor is also that it reacts so differently to different races.
Protoss:
Protoss are already a clear losser in terms of Island expantions because their only option for taking them is through a warp prism. Now they also have to get a Observer to make space and even then they have to wait for the creep to reside. Protoss don't really have other options for removing the tumor as stargate doesn't provide mobile detection. You could drop a cannon on island but then it is just going to take even longer to take the expansion.
Zerg:
Zerg is slightly better in this regard as they do have 2 options for getting a drone to the island. Nydus and Overlord drops. The latter is probably preferred as it doesn't give it self away instantly. Both of these require lair so the detection is not really an issue. Also once the tumor has been dealt with Zergs can instantly take the expansion as Creep doesn't prevent zerg buildings.
Terran:
As mentioned Terran already has many advantages regarding islands which is why even blizzard has given up on them. Besides Turrets and Lift off terran also have scan which gives acces to much earlier removal of the tumor, potentially through a Banshee rush. A raven could also do the job. While the creep still has to reside terrans can have their base ready and even make it an orbital before that. Once the creep goes away terrans can instantly land the finished base which overall might be even faster than what Zergs can currently do. Drops are also a much more common tactic for terran and medivacs has multible usages besides taking the expantion. Hence terran still has a clear advantage regarding these islands, with or without tumor. TLDR: Toss is royally boned in regard to the expansion, Zerg and Terran don't really care.
You are clearly a protoss player right? Zerg would have to spend 300 min 300 gas to get an island expo at tier 2! Three Hundred Gas! I think it was fine the way it was, a little bit easier for terran because they have detection and a medvac by default anyways.
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I am kind of annoyed at blizzard for this. They could have at least shown the changes in the pictures of what they call LE. and the loading screen? I mean sure it probably wont make a difference at my crappy low level but I still would have liked to play on the versions that they showed us and which I voted on. I thought this would be an interesting way to start moving towards barrins idea of fewer resources per base and see if that is at all viable.
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First the good: glad that Blizzard is at least improving the map pool, and making it easier for people to practice on the ladder for tournaments. Even if I don't like Ohana and the Daybreak changes are saddening, at least they're making *some* effort.
Now the ridiculous: Why do they keep changing everything? Why are things like Neutral Supply Depots, Creep tumors that block expansions, and 6m1hyg bases all too "confusing" to "casuals" to keep in, and yet things like rocks and, even more mind-bloggling, high-yield gold expansions, both of which are FAR more intrusive to gameplay, both kept in?
One step forward and two steps back, as always.
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Might use my new veto on cloud kingdom now that shattered is gone, or on orhana depending on how bad it is.
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More awesome maps!!
And I love that the forward base on Daybreak is now and actual expansion. I hate when I can't get 5 normal bases 
Blizzard <3
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On March 29 2012 20:58 Ragoo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 20:56 CaptainCrush wrote:
Awful lot of whining in here.... I dont really see the big deal of making a 6min1g into a normal expansion. Grow up children, we at least get some awesome maps this season and we had a chance to vote for which ones we wanted! Their was barely any choice cos most of the GSL maps are horrible tbh. Dual Sight? Xel'Naga Fortress? what the.... I only liked Daybreak and they changed that unnecessarily...
Have to laugh at some people. So if GSL maps are horrible, what exactly is a good map?
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This is freaking awesome with the exception of blizzard yet again ruining beautiful subtleties on amazing maps.
8m2g is the dumbest thing ever for the center expos on daybreak.
No neutral depots at ramps as usual is just stupid
rocks on islands instead of creep tumors... DUSTIN BROWDERRRRRR!!!!!!!!!
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EPT
