EPTBreadth of Gameplay in SC2 - Page 79
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GlintFox
United States275 Posts
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Nerski
United States1095 Posts
A large majority of games played are with frankly 'low' skilled players. Such as when someone complained about seeing a turtle fest in ZvP between a low diamond and a platinum player. What does that actually mean? Not much as it's common knowledge even on the current ladder lower level games tend to be either VERY cheesy or VERY defensive. The hope would be enough at least masters level players agree to play in the tournament setting to actually do a more 'practical' test of the concept. The ideal would be to find someone to put up money for a tournament to actually entice high level players or pro's if the prize is high enough to test the concept. | ||
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ultimfier
Canada29 Posts
also as a "low level player" myself I just want to let you know its not all a turtle fest or cheese. Platinum/Diamond players still use mainly strategies that pros use, we just use them much much MUCH less effectively. | ||
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Gfire
United States1699 Posts
In BW, it seems like 2 workers just about saturates a close patch, but not a far one. In SC2 2 workers don't quite saturate a close patch, although it sort of looks like they do when you watch them, because one turns around about the same time the other one arrives at the patch. It's because you can saturate a patch with 2 workers that you get a curve. 2 workers doesn't quite double the income in BW, but it does double the income in SC2. In SC2 there is a feature called return delay. I'm not sure if it existed in BW or how much, but in SC2 it means there is a 0.5 second delay after a worker finishes mining before returning the minerals. This is used to increase the time spend between loads without having to reduce the speed of the worker. The worker just stands there during this time, holding the minerals, and another worker can begin mining during this time. If you remove the 0.5 second return delay and instead add 0.5 seconds to the actual harvest time, the worker on it's own will mine the same amount, but it will occupy the patch for longer. This will mean, perhaps with a bit of adjustment of patch time and movement speed, you can get it to emulate BW where 2 workers don't quite saturate a patch. You'll see workers bump around even if there are less than 16 across 8 patches. I'm not %100 sure if changing the return delay alone will have an affect. You might also have to increase the harvest time just a bit more than that. In my test I had already increased the patch harvest time from 2.768ish to 3.5 and decreased the movement speed of the worker from 2.813ish to 2.5. Now I have a return delay of 0 and a harvest time of 4.0. These stats show income rates very close to those listed for BW in the OP. The slower workers also contributed to a reduced gas amount, while allowing full saturation of a far geyser with only 3 workers. | ||
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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-ForeverAlone-
274 Posts
Any comments or criticism would be greatly appreciated. Cheers, and I hope you enjoy.  | ||
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Gfire
United States1699 Posts
For me, though, after increasing time spent at the mineral field, getting rid of the return delay and slightly decreasing speed, they still match up to BW stats while carrying 5 per trip, which seems a bit odd. I don't think it would make much difference if you left the speed as is, anyway, and only altered the harvest time and return delay. | ||
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Infinite976
United States92 Posts
On March 27 2012 05:15 GPThunder wrote: For those who haven't tried 6m give it a shot. It leads to really fun macro games. The last game I played was one of the funnest in recent memory where my opponent and myself topped our supply out at 140, and played the majority of the game between 50 to 70 food, while having to battle over 6 bases. Here's the replay if you want to watch 2 diamond players PvT http://drop.sc/143400 @Fish, I agree. Not sure why your map and arrival are not receiving any love from Barrin. That was a pretty good game GP, man those two Colossi had like 50 kills each on them by the end =] | ||
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Polygamy
Austria1114 Posts
On March 27 2012 09:53 -ForeverAlone- wrote: Hello everyone, here are a few more casts. These were recorded yesterday with some awesome guys from 7m. We also had a few guys chatting if reading some hilarious text is your thing. :D Cheers, and I hope you enjoy. The reason he GG's in the 3rd game is because of the Zealots at his 3rd | ||
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ppgButtercup
United States159 Posts
They wont. How will Protoss survive a 3-gate 1-gas allin in PvP? They wont. You make the late game useless since no one can get enough bases to afford compositions like Broodlord/Infestor. Ling+Roach will basically dominate every match-up, or 2-base low-econ baneling rushes since your opponent won't have the gas to build enough tanks to survive. Don't have to worry about banshees, so you can just play blind. I don't have to play the game to realize how ridiculously strong low-econ builds will be against absolutely everything. If you think that will make people passive, that is only because you have people playing the game the way you are suggesting. You put this in front of a few thousand competitive people and it will all turn into ling/roach or 1-base baneling non-stop aggression that you won't be able to make enough sentries to defend. This is a bad idea. Stop wasting the talent of good map makers on this drivel simply because they don't understand what is so bad about it. | ||
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stebo
United States45 Posts
On March 27 2012 15:31 ppgButtercup wrote: How will 2-base Protoss stop 3-base Ling/Roach? They wont. How will Protoss survive a 3-gate 1-gas allin in PvP? They wont. You make the late game useless since no one can get enough bases to afford compositions like Broodlord/Infestor. Ling+Roach will basically dominate every match-up, or 2-base low-econ baneling rushes since your opponent won't have the gas to build enough tanks to survive. Don't have to worry about banshees, so you can just play blind. I don't have to play the game to realize how ridiculously strong low-econ builds will be against absolutely everything. If you think that will make people passive, that is only because you have people playing the game the way you are suggesting. You put this in front of a few thousand competitive people and it will all turn into ling/roach or 1-base baneling non-stop aggression that you won't be able to make enough sentries to defend. This is a bad idea. Stop wasting the talent of good map makers on this drivel simply because they don't understand what is so bad about it. You are totally right; it's all about aggressive strategy on this map. How do I expect to stop Zerg all-in's when I have almost no gas to afford enough Sentries to defend with Force Fields. Just wont work. How can I even manage to grab a 3rd base? Low econ all-in will be the new metagame. So yeah, I agree with you Buttercup: This idea sucks. | ||
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TheGreenMachine
United States730 Posts
Protoss can never get enough gas to be cost effective vs zerg roach ling without sentry AND other some-what gas heavy units. Also zerg can expand everywhere with mineral heavy units. While protoss can almost NEVER get a 3rd base... | ||
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sam!zdat
United States5559 Posts
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IronManSC
United States2119 Posts
On March 27 2012 15:40 TheGreenMachine wrote: Also zerg can expand everywhere with mineral heavy units. While protoss can almost NEVER get a 3rd base... Every protoss i've seen in 6m games have gone 3, 4, or 5 bases. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
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sam!zdat
United States5559 Posts
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sam!zdat
United States5559 Posts
On March 27 2012 15:45 IronManSC wrote: Every protoss i've seen in 6m games have gone 3, 4, or 5 bases. To be fair those are mostly very low level games. | ||
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ppgButtercup
United States159 Posts
On March 27 2012 15:45 IronManSC wrote: Every protoss i've seen in 6m games have gone 3, 4, or 5 bases. Because you told them to: that is the premise of these maps. Protoss cannot hold ling/roach or ling/baneling low-econ aggression without gas units. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On March 27 2012 15:47 ppgButtercup wrote: Because you told them to: that is the premise of these maps. Protoss cannot hold ling/roach or ling/baneling low-econ aggression without gas units. Can you at least play some games on it or something and show it rather then theorycrafting? Think that would be good to see rather then just assume when for all you know you are completely wrong. | ||
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sam!zdat
United States5559 Posts
On March 27 2012 15:47 ppgButtercup wrote: Because you told them to: that is the premise of these maps. Protoss cannot hold ling/roach or ling/baneling low-econ aggression without gas units. It's not clear that FFE is the best pvz opening in 6m. You're also underestimating the amount of gas you get from a 1.5 geyser you get to take for the price of 1. | ||
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