|
Alex is verbose, and you owe it to yourself (and the rest of us) to read the statement in its entirety. Remember, when making comments/claims to provide proper evidence, facts etc. Arguments based on incorrect assumptions, facts and straw men, will be dealt with swiftly. If in doubt, PM a mod or ask IRC. Do NOT spread misinformation, when in doubt, check your sources. In short, be smart. Alex comments on Idra: Orbs Statement: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319038Personal attacks against other posters in this thread will be met with a ban -- 14:20 KST |
On March 11 2012 16:25 jnsjr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 16:12 RajaF wrote:On March 11 2012 14:57 MaestroSC wrote:
this thread just shows how many people are not full fledge members of the workforce.
Casting was a job for Orb.
Walk into your job and start swearing/using racial slurs, see how long you are employed. Especially in a position where you will be representing your entire company. Good luck keeping your job.
I dont want to get into a debate about the psychology of words and their connotative and denotative meanings, but I just think it's one of those things, where if you want to be a representative or voice of an organization you have to remember that in all of your actions, because people will look for moments of weakness or reasons to remove you from your position.
IDK I think it sucks for Orb cause it happened before he had the position, but at the same time Evil Geniuses revolves around maintaining their sponsorships and keeping their sponsors happy, and they cant afford negative attention that might cost them their livelihood.
Agreed with post above mine. +1 But that is the thing that most people like you do not get. Orb did not walk into the job and start using racial slurs. He used one on his private stream, way before he was ever affiliated with EG. Frankly he should be looking into hiring himself a lawyer and suing EG for breach of contract and wrongful dismissal. And the thing that people like you do not get is in these types of employment cases, it will not matter. Your past actions previous to employment, if they are made public and can be substantiated, can absolutely lead to dismissal from your current job. There is no breach of contract and no wrongful dismissal. Wrongful dismissal/termination is a specific legal concept (not going to explain), and frankly, I don't see what legal right is being violated or why the dismissal is wrongful. I'm not sure why people think otherwise. You think EG's employment lawyers or consultants didn't ok this before it went through?
Don't worry, you don't need to explain the term. Any employed person should be at least familiar with it and what it entails.
Orb was fired for breaking some sort of internal rule about making comments of the sort. That is really the only legal reason that EG would of had. Maybe they can say that he was harming business interests since a lot of people emailed their sponsors (lol) but I doubt they would argue this with any success.
So considering the reason for dissmissal, all a decent lawyer has to do is find a clip of Idra calling ppl faggots on the internet while under contract with EG and suddenly it is a very strong case in some US courts because either they enforce that rule for everyone (Idra) or they do not.
tl dr: The legal right that is being violated is the right to work (in some US states) and the dissmissal is wrongful because of Idra breaking the same rules in the past yet is still employed there.
On March 11 2012 16:44 BlazeFury01 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 16:35 g0rthaur wrote:
I add this only to give my own thoughts. Obviously, there seem to be strong emotions surrounding this issue. so: I think Orb is a great caster and his dismissal is a huge overreaction. I dislike the current preoccupation in America (and maybe elsewhere?) with words, not actions. I don't care what word people use. My initial reaction was to boycott EG events, but I realized I would cave eventually : ) Bottom line: I wish everyone would just relax on these sorts of issues. I realize this is not likely. Of course you think the dismissal is a huge overreaction you even said yourself "I don't care what word people use". The situation isn't about "you" or what "you" think. It's about a racist word which Orb used and was fired because of it. He could have avoided using that word and there are a million other words Orb could have used in it's place but he chose that specific word especially when the sentence didn't even make sense. Orb: "you ain't your nigger tactics". Really? And did you seriously just say "boycott" EG events? Seriously lmao stop being so damn dramatic. What EG is doing is trying to help the growth of SC2 by hosting "PROFESSIONAL" events with a "PROFESSIONAL" staff. If you don't fit the bill then your out.
"PROFESSIONAL"... lol... are you not the guy that posted a video of a drug den with violence and racism galore in there? yeah, thought so.
|
On March 11 2012 16:51 RajaF wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 16:25 jnsjr wrote:On March 11 2012 16:12 RajaF wrote:On March 11 2012 14:57 MaestroSC wrote:
this thread just shows how many people are not full fledge members of the workforce.
Casting was a job for Orb.
Walk into your job and start swearing/using racial slurs, see how long you are employed. Especially in a position where you will be representing your entire company. Good luck keeping your job.
I dont want to get into a debate about the psychology of words and their connotative and denotative meanings, but I just think it's one of those things, where if you want to be a representative or voice of an organization you have to remember that in all of your actions, because people will look for moments of weakness or reasons to remove you from your position.
IDK I think it sucks for Orb cause it happened before he had the position, but at the same time Evil Geniuses revolves around maintaining their sponsorships and keeping their sponsors happy, and they cant afford negative attention that might cost them their livelihood.
Agreed with post above mine. +1 But that is the thing that most people like you do not get. Orb did not walk into the job and start using racial slurs. He used one on his private stream, way before he was ever affiliated with EG. Frankly he should be looking into hiring himself a lawyer and suing EG for breach of contract and wrongful dismissal. And the thing that people like you do not get is in these types of employment cases, it will not matter. Your past actions previous to employment, if they are made public and can be substantiated, can absolutely lead to dismissal from your current job. There is no breach of contract and no wrongful dismissal. Wrongful dismissal/termination is a specific legal concept (not going to explain), and frankly, I don't see what legal right is being violated or why the dismissal is wrongful. I'm not sure why people think otherwise. You think EG's employment lawyers or consultants didn't ok this before it went through? Don't worry, you don't need to explain the term. Any employed person should be at least familiar with it and what it entails. Orb was fired for breaking some sort of internal rule about making comments of the sort. That is really the only legal reason that EG would of had. Maybe they can say that he was harming business interests since a lot of people emailed their sponsors (lol) but I doubt they would argue this with any success. So considering the reason for dissmissal, all a decent lawyer has to do is find a clip of Idra calling ppl faggots on the internet while under contract with EG and suddenly it is a very strong case in some US courts because either they enforce that rule for everyone (Idra) or they do not. tl dr: The legal right that is being violated is the right to work (in some US states) and the dissmissal is wrongful because of Idra breaking the same rules in the past yet is still employed there. Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 16:44 BlazeFury01 wrote:On March 11 2012 16:35 g0rthaur wrote:
I add this only to give my own thoughts. Obviously, there seem to be strong emotions surrounding this issue. so: I think Orb is a great caster and his dismissal is a huge overreaction. I dislike the current preoccupation in America (and maybe elsewhere?) with words, not actions. I don't care what word people use. My initial reaction was to boycott EG events, but I realized I would cave eventually : ) Bottom line: I wish everyone would just relax on these sorts of issues. I realize this is not likely. Of course you think the dismissal is a huge overreaction you even said yourself "I don't care what word people use". The situation isn't about "you" or what "you" think. It's about a racist word which Orb used and was fired because of it. He could have avoided using that word and there are a million other words Orb could have used in it's place but he chose that specific word especially when the sentence didn't even make sense. Orb: "you ain't your nigger tactics". Really? And did you seriously just say "boycott" EG events? Seriously lmao stop being so damn dramatic. What EG is doing is trying to help the growth of SC2 by hosting "PROFESSIONAL" events with a "PROFESSIONAL" staff. If you don't fit the bill then your out. "PROFESSIONAL"... lol... are you not the guy that posted a video of a drug den with violence and racism galore in there? yeah, thought so.
Just like somebody who doesn't know what the hell they're talking about to throw in something that has to do with absolutely nothing with what we're discussing now. And yes, I'm the guy who posted the video.
First off, the video was a visual example of how the word we're discussing is "offensive" and of the reaction that took place because of it's use.
I said EG was trying to help the growth of SC by being professional. Also, if the place in the video was "racist" they wouldn't allowed him in the building to begin with; have you not seen remember the titans? Anyway, stick to the topic.
|
The OP lists a comment Alex made about Idra in Twitter, I cannot view twitter where I am could somebody please copy the post for so I can read it.
Thank you in advance
|
Everyone eventually gets a little rage on the ladder and says things they regret. I think it's a pretty funny the things that Idra gets away with saying or "has said before representing EG" but hes still chillin on the roster. Guess Orb doesnt make enough money for them. I think that's unfair, and frankly bs IMO. Just my 2 cents...
|
Honestly, this is ridiculous. Everyone says things they don't really mean, Orb is included. When he said those things, he didn't intend to be homophobic or racist and everyone knows this. People love to draw attention to themselves, so they made this shit a big deal. I'm disappointed that EG decided to take these idiots' complaints seriously. I really wish Orb the best in his future endevours. Gl hf all!
|
On March 11 2012 17:33 coloursheep wrote:
The OP lists a comment Alex made about Idra in Twitter, I cannot view twitter where I am could somebody please copy the post for so I can read it.
Thank you in advance
Someone tweeted at Alex "do you scold Idra then for using "faggot" during his streams and games? Not sure why he gets special treatment and Orb doesnt"
Alex replied "yes, i do. every time it happens, he hears from me. have you noticed it happening recently? if you have, let me know."
He has not used faggot in the last 12 months btw.
|
It should be stressed that it doesn't make too much of a difference if orb really meant these comments racist or if he just used them as randomly inserted insults. It can be hard to draw a line between these two cases and if you let a prominent person such as orb get away with this sort of behavior, then this will inevitably encourage other players to act similarly. This is why this sort of behavior should always be sanctioned.
Apart from orb's comments, we also shouldn't forget how he dealt with the allegations in the first place by just claiming that it wasn't him and some friends played on his account. This is probably one of the silliest and most immature excuses you can come up with.
|
Saying, "Nigger" as an insult and "Nigger" as a slur are two different things.
|
Amazing, 168 pages into the thread and ignorant users are still chiming in that "nigger" is not a slur. Not sure if they're trolling or genuinely have no clue.
|
On March 11 2012 22:46 cydial wrote:
Saying, "Nigger" as an insult and "Nigger" as a slur are two different things.
If you want to judge on whether orb is a racist or not, then you are right. I think it has never been called in question that he probably isn't. It doesn't make a difference though concerning EG's decision. They cannot tolerate any of the two cases.
|
On March 11 2012 22:46 cydial wrote:
Saying, "Nigger" as an insult and "Nigger" as a slur are two different things.
Which is why
Orb: U dumb nigger
will be construed as racism especially this in a fit of rage. Also Orb is not friends with this guy or have a knowledge of his ethnic background. This isn't the same as calling ur close friends 'nigger' as a joke.
|
It's an overreaction in my opinion. Blizzard have already censored starcraft 2 too much as is, Orb should be able to say whatever the fucking hell he wants to.
|
On March 11 2012 23:03 Blezza wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 22:46 cydial wrote:
Saying, "Nigger" as an insult and "Nigger" as a slur are two different things. Which is why Orb: U dumb nigger will be construed as racism especially this in a fit of rage. Also Orb is not friends with this guy or have a knowledge of his ethnic background. This isn't the same as calling ur close friends 'nigger' as a joke.
It can't be racism because Orb had no way of knowing the guy's race.
Unless it's racist to call a white guy a nigger.
This is the problem with giving so much power to a single word. If people really want racism to go away you have to make these words so commonplace they are meaningless, rather than enshrine and forbid them.
Especially when we live in a world where anything you have said is recorded forever and at any moment, some anonymous lurker may draw so much attention to your darkest moments that your career is ruined. And yet that anonymous lurker is forgotten or a hero.
|
On March 11 2012 12:56 FoeHamr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 11:24 101toss wrote:
EG dropped him. Business decision, racism was bad pr, perfectly fine decision.
If orb (or destiny) want to spurt racist comments on their own streams, whatever. However, get more mainstream/represent a large company that has no tolerance for racism and then things don't work out.
People need to see this from their own perspective. If my boss found out I spewed "niggers" when I played starcraft, odds are I would get fired.
Also grinds my gears that people are defending the use of the n-word. Really? This guy gets it.
Almost. Defending the use of faggot, rape, nigger in a gaming context like BM ladder rage is perfectly valid.
Doesn't change anything about former points, stuff needed to go down like it did. But we're gamers and to an extent I hope we stay that way. Professional SC2 can be professional. Hopefully TL and everything keeps the gaming roots.
|
On March 11 2012 23:09 Diomedes7 wrote:
It's an overreaction in my opinion. Blizzard have already censored starcraft 2 too much as is, Orb should be able to say whatever the fucking hell he wants to.
Orb can say whatever he wants to anytime he damn well pleases. EG can also choose to fire him. That's life. I feel most of the people in this thread trying to defend him saying nigger and saying he shouldn't have been let go must be very young. Anyone who has had an actual job of basically any kind knows you can't go around saying nigger. You will get fired. Even at Mcdonalds if you are talking to a friend and you throw the word nigger out there if a customer hears and gets pissed chances are you will be let go. This is not controversial at all. This is how things work. Even more in a company with a public face and in broadcasting.
|
On March 11 2012 19:23 Jinsho wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 17:33 coloursheep wrote:
The OP lists a comment Alex made about Idra in Twitter, I cannot view twitter where I am could somebody please copy the post for so I can read it.
Thank you in advance Someone tweeted at Alex "do you scold Idra then for using "faggot" during his streams and games? Not sure why he gets special treatment and Orb doesnt" Alex replied "yes, i do. every time it happens, he hears from me. have you noticed it happening recently? if you have, let me know." He has not used faggot in the last 12 months btw.
Thanks for doing that for me!
|
|
|
On March 11 2012 19:23 Jinsho wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 17:33 coloursheep wrote:
The OP lists a comment Alex made about Idra in Twitter, I cannot view twitter where I am could somebody please copy the post for so I can read it.
Thank you in advance Someone tweeted at Alex "do you scold Idra then for using "faggot" during his streams and games? Not sure why he gets special treatment and Orb doesnt" Alex replied "yes, i do. every time it happens, he hears from me. have you noticed it happening recently? if you have, let me know." He has not used faggot in the last 12 months btw.
oh I see, when Idra calls people "nigger" and "faggot" he gets a talking to and is told to stop, when Orb calls people "nigger" he loses his job ggnore.
rofl, Alex can't even try to deny he gives special treatment to certain people. Alex sounds like a greasy "banker-type" person who will say and do anything to twist things for his advantage with 0 moral persuasion, purely out for profit and keeping up a front.
|
Obviously there is no faith left in trying to get big in e-sports, anyone who tries is kidding themselves into an illusionary fantasy world. Because If someone calls you out for being bad-manner when you make it big, you'll be burned to the ground and blasted with a 10 page article by Alex about how XYZ word is that of a barbarian and not a civil person of society, let alone e-sports.
Good luck living up the dream, only to get cut down when you get to the top.
|
On March 11 2012 23:48 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 19:23 Jinsho wrote:On March 11 2012 17:33 coloursheep wrote:
The OP lists a comment Alex made about Idra in Twitter, I cannot view twitter where I am could somebody please copy the post for so I can read it.
Thank you in advance Someone tweeted at Alex "do you scold Idra then for using "faggot" during his streams and games? Not sure why he gets special treatment and Orb doesnt" Alex replied "yes, i do. every time it happens, he hears from me. have you noticed it happening recently? if you have, let me know." He has not used faggot in the last 12 months btw. oh I see, when Idra calls people "nigger" and "faggot" he gets a talking to and is told to stop, when Orb calls people "nigger" he loses his job ggnore. rofl, Alex can't even try to deny he gives special treatment to certain people. Alex sounds like a greasy "banker-type" person who will say and do anything to twist things for his advantage with 0 moral persuasion, purely out for profit and keeping up a front.
Of course Idra gets special treatment, this is the real world, not some fantasy world where everyone is treated fairly. Idra brings in big dollars because of how he acts, Orb was more or less a no name caster who pissed enough people off then got caught lying and the vocal minority kicked his legs out from under him.
Sure it sucks for him but that's life.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
