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On February 27 2012 11:28 Perseverance wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2012 11:27 jmbthirteen wrote:On February 27 2012 11:25 ZMTFoxdiE wrote:
lol @ all the suckers who paid while i watched everything in glorious 1080p with adblock suckers? i happily paid my $20, not only did I think it was worth it, but I am happy to support MLG because I want to see more of these Arenas. Exactly, so many poor kids who don't understand that if we don't pay, MLG dies. Hell, it could very well die anyway. I'm pretty sure the majority of the SC2 community is smart enough to figure out how to watch it for free if they wanted to....
If MLG wants to incur absurd costs by paying fringe benefits (plane tickets, accommodations, etc) to all of their participants, fine, but that cost is far too high for me to support.
I am not going to shell out $20 for every special event MLG wants to put on.
MLG needs a larger viewing audience for this PPV model scheme to work. They don't have it, and so it will, as of now, probably fail.
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I followed results on liquipedia/livereports and watched some of the Dr Pepper stream. For some of the sets you could hear the commentary on the Dr Pepper stream, and it was fun watching Leenock react to what was happening in the finals.
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On February 27 2012 10:29 Almonjin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2012 10:26 Detrimentally wrote:
Fuck all of the people that worked around the paywall. You're a corporate shill, and its you that is killing esports by swallowing an inferior product and paying for it.
No, he's not. If it's 'an inferior product' don't pay for it and don't watch it.
Watching it for free takes away your moral high ground and leaves you as "Fucking scum of the earth"
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On February 27 2012 11:27 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2012 11:25 dsousa wrote:On February 27 2012 11:23 battyone wrote:
Stealing implies you are taking something from them, if you weren't going to pay in the first place they lose nothing by having you watch the games for free anyway, if people didn't pay because it could be done for free then that is stealing but I doubt this is the case for 95% of people because of how unreliable getting it free seemed to be.
You are taking something they are offering for a price, and not paying it. How much clearer does a definition of theivery need to be? If you felt it was not worth your money to watch, why was it still worth your time? More importantly, what right do you have to take something for free when honest people have to pay? Don't try to dress things up with an argument that it's not stealing becuase you weren't going to buy it anyway, becuase you still saw fit to actually consume the content, but just not pay for it. Imagine using that argument for stealing Cable TV. "I wasn't going to pay for it anyway, so it's okay I used a workaround to get it for free. I'm not stealing anything." It just doesn't pan out well. At the end of the day if you worked around to watch for free you took something that you were not supposed to have. They are literally broadcasting a signal that you are simply reading. That's not stealing. MLG is not enforcing well enough who them deliver their product to. You cannot throw food at people, and then complain if they eat it. piracy is stealing, so is watching restreams. Heck even I download movies/songs/etc and I know its stealing, but don't try to justify yourself into thinking its not.
No. It's not. Watching a restream does nothing to hurt the company if you wren't going to watch it in the first place. MLG lost NOTHING by me watching it on a re-stream, because there was no way i would spend 20 dollars on something that shouldn't be that expensive in the first place, I guess to some of you 20 dollars is nothing, but 20 dollars for the couple of hours of games I would be watching isn't in any way worth it. People restreaming for people who weren't going buy anyways is actually * gasp * beneficial for the company, because maybe they will really enjoy it and maybe they will buy it, but there was no way and will likely not be anytime soon a reason for me to pay that much because each individual mlg event isn't worth 20 dollars to me. You can say i'm killing e sports all you want by not buying and restreaming, but that arguments kind of moot when i wasn't going to watch it anyways unless i could restream it.
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On February 27 2012 11:20 FeyFey wrote:
I wonder if mlg didn't tested their blocker ... the standard setup on alot of browser skipped their blocker. But its scary how many people found it okay to steal just because of that, but karma will repay them anyway.
Just hope mlg is more careful next time. Its not good to upset paying customers and you have to give them free cookies if you mess up.
How is something stealing when it's the content owner (MLG) gave it free to me to watch? I watched 8 matches total cause i didn't care about others or didn't had the time or something else was more important to me to watch at the same time.
Should i feel bad about that? No, why the hell should i? MLG isn't loosing any money because of that, if it wasn't possible to see it for free i wouldn't have seen it at all and i wouldn't care.
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I don't have $20 to spend on an event, especially if this is going to become multiple payments per year.
I can watch tournaments of similar quality for free, MLG can never entice me to pay $20 for their product, and I don't want to spend $100+ a year on watching SCII.
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On February 27 2012 11:31 Ace.Xile wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2012 11:27 iky43210 wrote:On February 27 2012 11:25 dsousa wrote:On February 27 2012 11:23 battyone wrote:
Stealing implies you are taking something from them, if you weren't going to pay in the first place they lose nothing by having you watch the games for free anyway, if people didn't pay because it could be done for free then that is stealing but I doubt this is the case for 95% of people because of how unreliable getting it free seemed to be.
You are taking something they are offering for a price, and not paying it. How much clearer does a definition of theivery need to be? If you felt it was not worth your money to watch, why was it still worth your time? More importantly, what right do you have to take something for free when honest people have to pay? Don't try to dress things up with an argument that it's not stealing becuase you weren't going to buy it anyway, becuase you still saw fit to actually consume the content, but just not pay for it. Imagine using that argument for stealing Cable TV. "I wasn't going to pay for it anyway, so it's okay I used a workaround to get it for free. I'm not stealing anything." It just doesn't pan out well. At the end of the day if you worked around to watch for free you took something that you were not supposed to have. They are literally broadcasting a signal that you are simply reading. That's not stealing. MLG is not enforcing well enough who them deliver their product to. You cannot throw food at people, and then complain if they eat it. piracy is stealing, so is watching restreams. Heck even I download movies/songs/etc and I know its stealing, but don't try to justify yourself into thinking its not. No. It's not. Watching a restream does nothing to hurt the company if you wren't going to watch it in the first place. MLG lost NOTHING by me watching it on a re-stream, because there was no way i would spend 20 dollars on something that shouldn't be that expensive in the first place, I guess to some of you 20 dollars is nothing, but 20 dollars for the couple of hours of games I would be watching isn't in any way worth it.
the entire argument that people weren't going to pay for it either way just isn't true. How many times have you tried to torrent/look for a software for free, can't find it, and end up having to buy from a legitimate company? I personally have multiple times.
intellectual property is important to programmers and companies, don't somehow think that they aren't taking a loss when you watch a restream or torrent
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On February 27 2012 11:28 Perseverance wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2012 11:27 jmbthirteen wrote:On February 27 2012 11:25 ZMTFoxdiE wrote:
lol @ all the suckers who paid while i watched everything in glorious 1080p with adblock suckers? i happily paid my $20, not only did I think it was worth it, but I am happy to support MLG because I want to see more of these Arenas. Exactly, so many poor kids who don't understand that if we don't pay, MLG dies. Hell, it could very well die anyway. I'm pretty sure the majority of the SC2 community is smart enough to figure out how to watch it for free if they wanted to....
More like, so many poor kids dont get that the customer has the power to influence the pricing system
20$ was way overboard for a single tournament and making mlg overthink their pricing system is not gonna make them die...
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On February 27 2012 11:25 windsupernova wrote:
Really people should not be angry at the people who watched MLG for free due to the cookie bug. It was MLGs own damn fault their system didn't work. It does suck for people like me who payed and I certainly hope MLG makes up for this somehow.
But its MLGs fault they didn't lock the door and people could "sneak in" and watch for free.Starcraft isn't some kind of basic necessity though so I don't know why some people act as if it was their right to be able to watch it for free though... especially since as many of you have said there is tons of free content so no need to try to cheat MLgs moronic system
Fuck off. That's like saying you shouldn't be angry if someone cheats at SC2 cause it's blizzards fault for not making the game secure enough.
They know it's the wrong thing to do and yet do it anyway, that is the definition of evil right there.
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Honestly it felt like any other MLG. Now that is not a bad thing, but aside from some fancy UI more streams at once (which I personally don't use anyway) and other minor things, there was nothing special about it and in fact not having any crowd is kind of a turn-off, because the crowd has been the best thing about MLG in 2011 from a spectators point of view.
It was just another good MLG event with good parts and bad parts. I had as much fun watching free Assembly, IEM last week, Dreamhack .. you name it, they were free. There is a limit on how much time you want to spend watching tournaments and that corporate bullshit some people parrot, just to feel important and good is really getting old.
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On February 27 2012 11:31 Ace.Xile wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2012 11:27 iky43210 wrote:On February 27 2012 11:25 dsousa wrote:On February 27 2012 11:23 battyone wrote:
Stealing implies you are taking something from them, if you weren't going to pay in the first place they lose nothing by having you watch the games for free anyway, if people didn't pay because it could be done for free then that is stealing but I doubt this is the case for 95% of people because of how unreliable getting it free seemed to be.
You are taking something they are offering for a price, and not paying it. How much clearer does a definition of theivery need to be? If you felt it was not worth your money to watch, why was it still worth your time? More importantly, what right do you have to take something for free when honest people have to pay? Don't try to dress things up with an argument that it's not stealing becuase you weren't going to buy it anyway, becuase you still saw fit to actually consume the content, but just not pay for it. Imagine using that argument for stealing Cable TV. "I wasn't going to pay for it anyway, so it's okay I used a workaround to get it for free. I'm not stealing anything." It just doesn't pan out well. At the end of the day if you worked around to watch for free you took something that you were not supposed to have. They are literally broadcasting a signal that you are simply reading. That's not stealing. MLG is not enforcing well enough who them deliver their product to. You cannot throw food at people, and then complain if they eat it. piracy is stealing, so is watching restreams. Heck even I download movies/songs/etc and I know its stealing, but don't try to justify yourself into thinking its not. No. It's not. Watching a restream does nothing to hurt the company if you wren't going to watch it in the first place. MLG lost NOTHING by me watching it on a re-stream, because there was no way i would spend 20 dollars on something that shouldn't be that expensive in the first place, I guess to some of you 20 dollars is nothing, but 20 dollars for the couple of hours of games I would be watching isn't in any way worth it. People restreaming for people who weren't going buy anyways is actually * gasp * beneficial for the company, because maybe they will really enjoy it and maybe they will buy it, but there was no way and will likely not be anytime soon a reason for me to pay that much because each individual mlg event isn't worth 20 dollars to me. You can say i'm killing e sports all you want by not buying and restreaming, but that arguments kind of moot when i wasn't going to watch it anyways unless i could restream it.
you may have not planned to ever buy it and was only willing to watch it free but im sure plenty of people watched it free and would ahve shelled out if they had no other option
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I wasn't able to watch it so i didnt buy the ppv. Anyway, how was the stream was it amazing, good, or bad? Also, how were the games?
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On February 27 2012 11:34 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2012 11:31 Ace.Xile wrote:On February 27 2012 11:27 iky43210 wrote:On February 27 2012 11:25 dsousa wrote:On February 27 2012 11:23 battyone wrote:
Stealing implies you are taking something from them, if you weren't going to pay in the first place they lose nothing by having you watch the games for free anyway, if people didn't pay because it could be done for free then that is stealing but I doubt this is the case for 95% of people because of how unreliable getting it free seemed to be.
You are taking something they are offering for a price, and not paying it. How much clearer does a definition of theivery need to be? If you felt it was not worth your money to watch, why was it still worth your time? More importantly, what right do you have to take something for free when honest people have to pay? Don't try to dress things up with an argument that it's not stealing becuase you weren't going to buy it anyway, becuase you still saw fit to actually consume the content, but just not pay for it. Imagine using that argument for stealing Cable TV. "I wasn't going to pay for it anyway, so it's okay I used a workaround to get it for free. I'm not stealing anything." It just doesn't pan out well. At the end of the day if you worked around to watch for free you took something that you were not supposed to have. They are literally broadcasting a signal that you are simply reading. That's not stealing. MLG is not enforcing well enough who them deliver their product to. You cannot throw food at people, and then complain if they eat it. piracy is stealing, so is watching restreams. Heck even I download movies/songs/etc and I know its stealing, but don't try to justify yourself into thinking its not. No. It's not. Watching a restream does nothing to hurt the company if you wren't going to watch it in the first place. MLG lost NOTHING by me watching it on a re-stream, because there was no way i would spend 20 dollars on something that shouldn't be that expensive in the first place, I guess to some of you 20 dollars is nothing, but 20 dollars for the couple of hours of games I would be watching isn't in any way worth it. the entire argument that people weren't going to pay for it either way just isn't true. How many times have you tried to torrent/look for a software for free, can't find it, and end up having to buy from a legitimate company? I personally have multiple times. intellectual property is important to programmers and companies, don't somehow think that they aren't taking a loss when you watch a restream
Okay make a poll, how many people would shell out of 20 dollars for every dam event of mlg if there were no restreams, because i know i wouldn't, and the only people i know personally that did are people who shared with 3 or 4 other people. I wouldn't buy MLG events the same way i don't go out and buy movies or buy music, because they don't mean enough to me or many other people to spend extreme amounts of money on it every month or two.
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I did the cookie work around trick, being somebody under the age of 18 and living under my parent's mercy there was 0% chance I was going to ask my dad to pay 20$ on his card ( many people in my situation don't have a paypal or credit card with money to spend without parent permission) just to have my matches interrupted in the middle by my mom bitching at me to clean my room or something trivial.
However, it turned out my uncle came in from out of town and I had to miss the finals and Huk vs DRG to go eat a family dinner, would have been an anticlimatic waste to pay 20$ for such a thing.
These PPV live tournaments exclude the 18 and under age bracket quite well.
That being said, if MLG can't prevent a simple "incognito mode then refresh twice to have free stream" thats 100% their fault.
Like somebody said earlier, you can't throw food at people and expect them not to eat it.
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I don't really care that most of you think I'm killing e-sports because I watched a restream. I had time to watch a single series, I wouldn't pay $20 just for one game.
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[QUOTE]On February 27 2012 11:23 battyone wrote:
[QUOTE]
Stealing implies you are taking something from them, if you weren't going to pay in the first place they lose nothing by having you watch the games for free anyway, if people didn't pay because it could be done for free then that is stealing but I doubt this is the case for 95% of people because of how unreliable getting it free seemed to be.[/QUOTE]
"You are taking something they are offering for a price, and not paying it. How much clearer does a definition of theivery need to be? If you felt it was not worth your money to watch, why was it still worth your time? More importantly, what right do you have to take something for free when honest people have to pay?"
If it's worth your time or if it's worth your money are two different things. If something is free or easy to get for free you are easily going to spend some time with it just because it's FREE.
"Don't try to dress things up with an argument that it's not stealing becuase you weren't going to buy it anyway, becuase you still saw fit to actually consume the content, but just not pay for it."
Same thing again, if you had not ever planned to pay for it it's simply not stealing since you are not taking an actual product but rather a hypothetical one.
What happened was: people did not plan on paying and instead spending their time doing other things. Woops, MLG's website apparently sucks so they could get it for free. Suddenly they could watch it and they did.
If there were no restreams or their website did not allow such an easy override then they would have just done what they initially intended to which is not paying and not watching.
There are several times where I had never thought about going to restaurant X because I could not afford it but if someone would invite me to a paid dinner at X then I would go. I would not stay home and say "well I personally couldn't afford it so I don't deserve it". In either case, restaurant X or MLG does not get MY money and there's just no way around it.
Quoting got all messed up...
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On February 27 2012 11:28 Ace.Xile wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2012 11:18 OneOddOrange wrote:On February 27 2012 11:15 MajorityofOne wrote:On February 27 2012 11:09 OneOddOrange wrote:On February 27 2012 11:03 allerion wrote:On February 27 2012 10:58 lachy89 wrote:They flew every player over and paid for full accommodation and food...
So the only way MLG can think of to get good games is to pay people to go to their tournaments? It hurts my head to think that nobody could come up with a better way to get good players to want to go to their tournaments. No it's called helping teams not have too pay for flights, which in term means they have more money for other things which helps esports. When the fuck did so many people devolepe such a huge entitlement complex, the fact is somethings you have too pay for and thats how it works... You do have to pay for some things, but there is a near-infinite amount of free SC2 content available. MLG will never be able to compete with "free". It's like if somebody tried to open a version of Facebook that required you pay a monthly fee. I don't feel entitled to free Starcraft, but I'm not going to pay so long as it exists unless the step up in quality is exceptional. Yeah that's fine if you don't want to pay don't I didn't but don't steal their product... Learn what stealing is and then come back. Because for the majority of cases they are not stealing by any form of real definition of the term, at all.
There are many "real" definitions of "stealing." There is a legal definition, a moral definition, and a common-sense definition. Morally and common-sensically, you are stealing -- you are taking the benefit of someone else's work without paying their stated price. If you entered into the transaction that was offered, there would be $20 in MLG's bank account.
Learn what "sophistry" and "arbitrary distinctions" and "semantic bullshit" are, then come back.
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On February 27 2012 11:36 Timurid wrote:
I wasn't able to watch it so i didnt buy the ppv. Anyway, how was the stream was it amazing, good, or bad? Also, how were the games?
Constant lag and stuttering for me, can't complain though because I never got a pay prompt.
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On February 27 2012 11:37 Ace.Xile wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2012 11:34 iky43210 wrote:On February 27 2012 11:31 Ace.Xile wrote:On February 27 2012 11:27 iky43210 wrote:On February 27 2012 11:25 dsousa wrote:On February 27 2012 11:23 battyone wrote:
Stealing implies you are taking something from them, if you weren't going to pay in the first place they lose nothing by having you watch the games for free anyway, if people didn't pay because it could be done for free then that is stealing but I doubt this is the case for 95% of people because of how unreliable getting it free seemed to be.
You are taking something they are offering for a price, and not paying it. How much clearer does a definition of theivery need to be? If you felt it was not worth your money to watch, why was it still worth your time? More importantly, what right do you have to take something for free when honest people have to pay? Don't try to dress things up with an argument that it's not stealing becuase you weren't going to buy it anyway, becuase you still saw fit to actually consume the content, but just not pay for it. Imagine using that argument for stealing Cable TV. "I wasn't going to pay for it anyway, so it's okay I used a workaround to get it for free. I'm not stealing anything." It just doesn't pan out well. At the end of the day if you worked around to watch for free you took something that you were not supposed to have. They are literally broadcasting a signal that you are simply reading. That's not stealing. MLG is not enforcing well enough who them deliver their product to. You cannot throw food at people, and then complain if they eat it. piracy is stealing, so is watching restreams. Heck even I download movies/songs/etc and I know its stealing, but don't try to justify yourself into thinking its not. No. It's not. Watching a restream does nothing to hurt the company if you wren't going to watch it in the first place. MLG lost NOTHING by me watching it on a re-stream, because there was no way i would spend 20 dollars on something that shouldn't be that expensive in the first place, I guess to some of you 20 dollars is nothing, but 20 dollars for the couple of hours of games I would be watching isn't in any way worth it. the entire argument that people weren't going to pay for it either way just isn't true. How many times have you tried to torrent/look for a software for free, can't find it, and end up having to buy from a legitimate company? I personally have multiple times. intellectual property is important to programmers and companies, don't somehow think that they aren't taking a loss when you watch a restream Okay make a poll, how many people would shell out of 20 dollars for every dam event of mlg if there were no restreams, because i know i wouldn't, and the only people i know personally that did are people who shared with 3 or 4 other people. I wouldn't buy MLG events the same way i don't go out and buy movies or buy music, because they don't mean enough to me or many other people to spend extreme amounts of money on it every month or two.
the main MLG events are still gonna have a free stream its jsut the special events that might be PPV
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On February 27 2012 11:31 TheSir wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2012 11:20 FeyFey wrote:
I wonder if mlg didn't tested their blocker ... the standard setup on alot of browser skipped their blocker. But its scary how many people found it okay to steal just because of that, but karma will repay them anyway.
Just hope mlg is more careful next time. Its not good to upset paying customers and you have to give them free cookies if you mess up. How is something stealing when it's the content owner (MLG) gave it free to me to watch? I watched 8 matches total cause i didn't care about others or didn't had the time or something else was more important to me to watch at the same time. Should i feel bad about that? No, why the hell should i? MLG isn't loosing any money because of that, if it wasn't possible to see it for free i wouldn't have seen it at all and i wouldn't care.
So IYO should everybody step up in their DRM because people can't be trusted?
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EPT
