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On February 24 2012 05:35 ceaRshaf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 05:28 Clbull wrote:On February 24 2012 03:11 SpinmovE wrote:
No, that is not what they are saying at all. They are saying that TL is the site to go to if you wish you find starcraft streams which they believe fulfill their vision of growing esports. If you don't agree with it feel free to produce your own website which I'm sure no one will visit. Goodluck! Yeah, because PPV IS KILLING ESPORTS!!! AMIRITE???No really. Get. Fucking. Real. The freemium "free decent quality stream with a few premium features" model is simply unsustainable for MLG especially when they have to top the 2011 Pro Circuit in terms of production, paying for travel/accomodation costs and prize money. There's a reason why MLG are going down the paywall route, and that's because they need to build a sustainable business model. Sure, cash is more important than profits but in reality, if a business never becomes profitable, it's only a matter of time (and the amount of time) until they run out of cash and have to shut down. I cannot comment on MLG's finances but I assume they went PPV so that they could actually break even if not profit from their tournaments, and invest that money into improving their league. On February 24 2012 03:11 SpinmovE wrote:
Everyone wants esports to be profitable, but people also want to pay a reasonable price for the viewing experience. Not to mention it's pretty damn hard to get your friends into watching Sc2 when they have to pay to do it. Whatever though, this horse has been beaten far too much and you clearly don't want to entertain any opinions other then your own. And that is why you're a moron. Instead of giving a real argument for TeamLiquid's moderators doing this, you've instead Don't like the MLG Winter Arena price? Then don't fucking pay for it. I just think that it shouldn't be under TeamLiquid's jurisdiction to just refuse to list something on the calendar just because Sundance DiGiovanni and other MLG executives made a serious business decision to put one of their events behind a paywall, to actually make their business model sustainable in the long run. It's a fucking major event and TL are acting high and mighty like they need to pay for a listing just because they put the stream behind a paywall. The way I see it, the calendar is for listing major and minor tournaments, SC2 events and even shows related to SC content. It's not fulfilling its role if Hot_Bid and the other mods are outright refusing to list an event just because it's gone PPV. Especially the case when they have to pay for a venue, plane tickets for all the professional gamers, a production team, for the computers they're gonna have at the venue, the booths, the other equipment, to pay the commentary teams etc, and for a prize pool. Now try sustaining that from a ad supported model with around 80,000 viewers. Nice, talk like you know shit. Remember that at the moment MLG is the only one crying like a baby that they NEED ppv or Esports is dead. MLG doesn't look like a company with an actual good management plan so I am not really surprised that they don't do good business. But I don't have to care. PPV is not good for exposure since the community is not at that critical mass that you can milk money out of them. And it's teamliquids right to put who ever they want on the calendar. Period. MLG wants to make money out of PPV, what's in it for TL for advertising their event? Nothing, just for the sake of Esports? gtfo
I'm really getting sick of this argument with people saying MLG stated people are hurting esports by not supporting them. They may have said that in the past, but they have said nothing of the sort dealing with their PPV system. They said if it doesn't work out and if MLG dies then esports is not dead. I'm buying a pass to support MLG, not esports. This product was NOT free, and therefore can be PPV.
You really seem to just be putting words in their mouth, or you just seem to have this pent up rage towards MLG that no matter what anyone says you're stuck thinking that everyone who disagrees with you is wrong. People have opinions, it's not in your place to tell them to go away because you think they are wrong.
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Only solution, all TL.net members get free stream. T-T
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On February 24 2012 05:28 Clbull wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 03:11 SpinmovE wrote:
No, that is not what they are saying at all. They are saying that TL is the site to go to if you wish you find starcraft streams which they believe fulfill their vision of growing esports. If you don't agree with it feel free to produce your own website which I'm sure no one will visit. Goodluck! Yeah, because PPV IS KILLING ESPORTS!!! AMIRITE???No really. Get. Fucking. Real. The freemium "free decent quality stream with a few premium features like player cam, HD qualities and two extra streams for casting uncasted games" model is simply unsustainable for MLG especially when they have to top the 2011 Pro Circuit in terms of production, paying for travel/accomodation costs and prize money. There's a reason why MLG are going down the paywall route, and that's because they need to build a sustainable business model. Sure, cash is more important than profits but in reality, if a business never breaks even at the very least, it's only a matter of time (and the amount of time depends on the amount of cash they have) until they run out of cash and have to shut down. I cannot comment on MLG's finances but I assume they went PPV so that they could actually break even if not profit from their tournaments, and invest that money into improving their league. Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 03:11 SpinmovE wrote:
Everyone wants esports to be profitable, but people also want to pay a reasonable price for the viewing experience. Not to mention it's pretty damn hard to get your friends into watching Sc2 when they have to pay to do it. Whatever though, this horse has been beaten far too much and you clearly don't want to entertain any opinions other then your own. And that is why you're a moron. Instead of giving a real argument for TeamLiquid's moderators doing this, you've instead made the subjective argument that you want a reasonable price and that you and your friends who probably won't get into SC2 either way are deterred by the $20 price tag. Don't like the MLG Winter Arena price? Then don't fucking pay for it. There's already Assembly Winter on at the same time and if you want to introduce your friends to StarCraft 2, just show them another good tournament. I just think that it shouldn't be under TeamLiquid's jurisdiction to just refuse to list something on the calendar just because Sundance DiGiovanni and other MLG executives made a serious business decision to put one of their events behind a paywall, to actually make their business model sustainable in the long run. It's a fucking major event and TL are acting high and mighty like they need to pay for a listing just because they put the stream behind a paywall. The way I see it, the calendar is for listing major and minor tournaments, SC2 events and even shows related to SC content. It's not fulfilling its role if Hot_Bid and the other mods are outright refusing to list an event just because it's gone PPV. That's like a TV guide website demanding payment from BSkyB because they listed the programme running times for their Sky, Sky Sports, Sky Movies, Sky Altantic etc channels, just because they are CABLE channels and hence require a digital TV subscription. It makes no fucking sense. Especially the case when they have to pay for a venue, plane tickets for all the professional gamers, a production team, for the computers they're gonna have at the venue, the booths, the other equipment, to pay the commentary teams etc, and for a prize pool. Now try sustaining that from a ad supported model with around 80,000 viewers average.
Teamliquid's calendar isn't purporting to be a TV guide for every major SC2 tournament. It's supposed to be a service for users, and it's a business decision on TL's end to decide whether posting events that their users can't view for free from the site is profitable/good for them to do. TL doesn't have any obligation to any company to show that their event is happening, they have an obligation to their users to provide a list of events that they think they will enjoy seeing, and not list events that will hamper their use of the site.
Their entire decision is not about some journalistic integrity or something, but matters of viewer satisfaction with the site. It's probably false that not listing pay per view tournaments is ultimately better for their users, but TL has a conflicting interest with PPV shit in that they want to encourage tournaments that can be viewed from TL by as many people as possible. Since their revenue comes from ads, their interests strongly lie with influencing tournaments however they can to not reduce the ultimate number of viewers, which MLG's PPV thing obviously does.
It's obvious nonsense to say TL shouldn't have the jurisdiction to decide whether to put this tournament on their site. The only ways you can argue with the decision are by saying either that TL is going to end up reducing its own revenue (highly improbable considering the success of a PPV model would likely reduce traffic to TL, AoL doesn't ever crash the site) or ultimately hurting its users. Whiny bullshit about how it's unfair to MLG and they have an e-Sports duty to encourage all tournaments is just meaningless and can't actually effect change in the decision.
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Gunrun just came by the TL irc chatroom and dropped off this awesome discount code for winter arena.
Signup fast before it goes away!
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100% agree with TL on this, full support for enforcing their rules equally across the board. Somewhat surprised that some people are complaining about it, but I suppose I shouldn't be as there is a small vocal minority that seems to hate on TL regardless of what they do.
MLG doesn't get any special treatment here - I like it.
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On February 24 2012 05:59 SCST wrote:
100% agree with TL on this, full support for enforcing their rules equally across the board. Somewhat surprised that some people are complaining about it, but I suppose I shouldn't be as there is a small vocal minority that seems to hate on TL regardless of what they do.
MLG doesn't get any special treatment here - I like it.
It's not hating on TL. There is actually a fairly intelligent discussion going on here eventually getting down to this dilemma vs what role TL.net has as a site. There's LOTS to be said about that and I think both sides have valid arguments.
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On February 24 2012 05:59 Alternity wrote:Gunrun just came by the TL irc chatroom and dropped off this awesome discount code for winter arena. Signup fast before it goes away!
$0.01 Discount? i loled.
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Backstab goes in both ways. It's kinda sad it has come to this.
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No part of this thread has been at all surprising. Thank goodness for groupthink.
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srsly 0,01$ discount?
Awesome!
But i have to watch ROG sry.
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On February 23 2012 16:23 elKaDor wrote:
and now when Sheth, HayprO and Ret arrives to MLG Arena the MLG staff will approach them and guide them to the cheapest crappiest hotel ever and give them an Win 95 PC to play on ;D
You mean windows ME.
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On February 24 2012 05:52 guluru wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 05:35 ceaRshaf wrote:On February 24 2012 05:28 Clbull wrote:On February 24 2012 03:11 SpinmovE wrote:
No, that is not what they are saying at all. They are saying that TL is the site to go to if you wish you find starcraft streams which they believe fulfill their vision of growing esports. If you don't agree with it feel free to produce your own website which I'm sure no one will visit. Goodluck! Yeah, because PPV IS KILLING ESPORTS!!! AMIRITE???No really. Get. Fucking. Real. The freemium "free decent quality stream with a few premium features" model is simply unsustainable for MLG especially when they have to top the 2011 Pro Circuit in terms of production, paying for travel/accomodation costs and prize money. There's a reason why MLG are going down the paywall route, and that's because they need to build a sustainable business model. Sure, cash is more important than profits but in reality, if a business never becomes profitable, it's only a matter of time (and the amount of time) until they run out of cash and have to shut down. I cannot comment on MLG's finances but I assume they went PPV so that they could actually break even if not profit from their tournaments, and invest that money into improving their league. On February 24 2012 03:11 SpinmovE wrote:
Everyone wants esports to be profitable, but people also want to pay a reasonable price for the viewing experience. Not to mention it's pretty damn hard to get your friends into watching Sc2 when they have to pay to do it. Whatever though, this horse has been beaten far too much and you clearly don't want to entertain any opinions other then your own. And that is why you're a moron. Instead of giving a real argument for TeamLiquid's moderators doing this, you've instead Don't like the MLG Winter Arena price? Then don't fucking pay for it. I just think that it shouldn't be under TeamLiquid's jurisdiction to just refuse to list something on the calendar just because Sundance DiGiovanni and other MLG executives made a serious business decision to put one of their events behind a paywall, to actually make their business model sustainable in the long run. It's a fucking major event and TL are acting high and mighty like they need to pay for a listing just because they put the stream behind a paywall. The way I see it, the calendar is for listing major and minor tournaments, SC2 events and even shows related to SC content. It's not fulfilling its role if Hot_Bid and the other mods are outright refusing to list an event just because it's gone PPV. Especially the case when they have to pay for a venue, plane tickets for all the professional gamers, a production team, for the computers they're gonna have at the venue, the booths, the other equipment, to pay the commentary teams etc, and for a prize pool. Now try sustaining that from a ad supported model with around 80,000 viewers. Nice, talk like you know shit. Remember that at the moment MLG is the only one crying like a baby that they NEED ppv or Esports is dead. MLG doesn't look like a company with an actual good management plan so I am not really surprised that they don't do good business. But I don't have to care. PPV is not good for exposure since the community is not at that critical mass that you can milk money out of them. And it's teamliquids right to put who ever they want on the calendar. Period. MLG wants to make money out of PPV, what's in it for TL for advertising their event? Nothing, just for the sake of Esports? gtfo I'm really getting sick of this argument with people saying MLG stated people are hurting esports by not supporting them. They may have said that in the past, but they have said nothing of the sort dealing with their PPV system. They said if it doesn't work out and if MLG dies then esports is not dead. I'm buying a pass to support MLG, not esports. This product was NOT free, and therefore can be PPV. You really seem to just be putting words in their mouth, or you just seem to have this pent up rage towards MLG that no matter what anyone says you're stuck thinking that everyone who disagrees with you is wrong. People have opinions, it's not in your place to tell them to go away because you think they are wrong.
So my gtfo insulted you but his "you are a moron" wasn't good enough.
Anyway, stop defending MLG. They took the victim role so they should be able to handle the criticism. I am glad TL showed them that they are business as well so show the money or bye bye.
Even if the 10k rumor is true we can't judge if that's too much or not. 10k payment from MLG for advertise is like TL promising >500 more viewers coming just from their website. Do you think that's too much for a promise?
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Osaka27179 Posts
On February 24 2012 04:46 csn_JohnClark wrote:
So.. this could just be a rumor..but comes from a very reliable source..
The amount requested by TL was 10k????
The only reason I bring this up is because I support TL's decisions, I am against how MLG handled the PPV..but if the 10K is the amount.. then I have to now disagree with TL's decision! That amount of money would be purely a 'money grab' and make what TL did here look very poor.
Can anyone confirm this amount. Any comment from TL? I love what TL is doing here and I agree with their stance on this.. but for 10K..that's absurd.
I heard it was.... a billion dollars.
Seriously, if you are just going to make shit up. Don't post.
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On February 24 2012 07:11 Manifesto7 wrote:
Seriously, if you are just going to make shit up. Don't post.
Oh, this quote can come in handy in many other threads! 
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On February 24 2012 06:59 Gargara wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 16:23 elKaDor wrote:
and now when Sheth, HayprO and Ret arrives to MLG Arena the MLG staff will approach them and guide them to the cheapest crappiest hotel ever and give them an Win 95 PC to play on ;D You mean windows ME.
dude windows ME was awesome :D
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I do remember GSL's AOL tournament being listed on the TL calendar, despite it not being a free event. What gives? There was no bitching then, no problem then. But now that it's MLG, there's a huge one?
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On February 24 2012 07:11 Manifesto7 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 04:46 csn_JohnClark wrote:
So.. this could just be a rumor..but comes from a very reliable source..
The amount requested by TL was 10k????
The only reason I bring this up is because I support TL's decisions, I am against how MLG handled the PPV..but if the 10K is the amount.. then I have to now disagree with TL's decision! That amount of money would be purely a 'money grab' and make what TL did here look very poor.
Can anyone confirm this amount. Any comment from TL? I love what TL is doing here and I agree with their stance on this.. but for 10K..that's absurd. I heard it was.... a billion dollars. Seriously, if you are just going to make shit up. Don't post.
I also heard someone turned down the offer to buy TL for a Million Dollars.
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Braavos36402 Posts
TL and MLG had a difference of opinion about whether we should charge for PPV streams on calendar. Did we give them a price? Yes, but it never progressed to negotiating the pricing details. They said it was too high, we asked what was an affordable amount for them to pay, and they responded that we shouldn't be treating free and PPV streams differently.
I don't think we owe anyone a detailed explanation of the numbers or our finances, but this 10k rumor is just completely inaccurate and untrue, both in the amounts and that a "TL source" leaked. I would just urge people not to listen to rumors from unverified sources.
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LOL how does it feel to be asked to pay for something you used to get for free? Hope your sponsors appreciate your 2,000 viewers MLG.
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This thread is so full of fail it makes my head hurt, seriously...
The only interesting point that was brought forward is that the TL calendar is definitely not (and was arguably never meant to be) the reference I expected it to be for all things sc2. Where are we supposed to go to have an unbiased and complete view of all the events in the sc2 world now? If you find out, please let me know. Until then, I'll keep wasting my time looking at random forum threads and hope the interesting stuff catches my attention.
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EPT
