DISCLAIMER : This is NOT about holding workers around a marine or some other attacking unit. This is about the fact that the trick also works with nothing but workers (which is not a widely known fact)
Hey TL,
All of you guys know that you can hold position your workers around a cannon or a stalker (or any ranged unit) in your mineral line to screw up with the AI when your opponent does a ling run-by (see thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163938).
However, I realized that this also works with melee units, and more importantly, with a worker itself. This means that if you spot a speedling army heading for your mineral line, and your army is out of position, you can stall for time using the hold position trick on one of your own probes.
1. Box all your workers
2. Right click on a worker in the middle
3. Press h
4. Without moving your mouse select the probe (left click)
5. a-move it somewhere
This can actually be done in less then 2 seconds pretty easily. The zerg then has to use the zergling hold position to try to kill some of your workers which requires 100% of his attention/APM.
On February 23 2012 06:38 darkcloud8282 wrote: I thought everyone does hold position with their lings?
hold position with lings is effective only if there's a good spread of lings through the mineral line. but when this maneuver is done by the defender, there are only 3-4 workers exposed to 3-4 lings. and when those die, zerg has to move forward and hold position again.
So while zergs usually a-move their speedlings in your minerals while they are doing something else and you have to defend it, this forces them to focus on their run-by and buys you some precious seconds to defend.
This is pretty bad honestly \: People at least look at their lings. You don't need to use any tricks to beat people who send their units somewhere and don't look at them at least once. Stopping mining like that is pretty bad and you're going to lose workers until you get actual units there regardless. Kudos to the effort but I can't see an instance when I would ever do this. It relies completely on your opponent being an idiot and you're just spreading your legs for the players who actually look at what's going on there, instead of doing what you can to respond properly to them.
On February 23 2012 05:48 Lumi wrote: This is pretty bad honestly \: People at least look at their lings. You don't need to use any tricks to beat people who send their units somewhere and don't look at them at least once. Stopping mining like that is pretty bad and you're going to lose workers until you get actual units there regardless. Kudos to the effort but I can't see an instance when I would ever do this.
u could use this to protect your queen and let the queen deal dmg this is just one of the many instances you could be using it this...
On February 23 2012 05:48 Lumi wrote: This is pretty bad honestly \: People at least look at their lings. You don't need to use any tricks to beat people who send their units somewhere and don't look at them at least once. Stopping mining like that is pretty bad and you're going to lose workers until you get actual units there regardless. Kudos to the effort but I can't see an instance when I would ever do this.
u could use this to protect your queen and let the queen deal dmg this is just one of the many instances you could be using it this...
Yeah sure like any idea in SC2 there are some "Coulds" but you could, and most often will simply be saying hey I'm here and I'm not running away, please own me. And it's pretty common se nse that you can surround static D so that you can put walls around static D so that it can't be hit by melee.. using workers to that effect is within the same concept.
On February 23 2012 05:48 Lumi wrote: This is pretty bad honestly \: People at least look at their lings. You don't need to use any tricks to beat people who send their units somewhere and don't look at them at least once. Stopping mining like that is pretty bad and you're going to lose workers until you get actual units there regardless. Kudos to the effort but I can't see an instance when I would ever do this.
u could use this to protect your queen and let the queen deal dmg this is just one of the many instances you could be using it this...
Yeah sure like any idea in SC2 there are some "Coulds" but you could, and most often will simply be saying hey I'm here and I'm not running away, please own me.
On February 23 2012 05:48 Lumi wrote: This is pretty bad honestly \: People at least look at their lings. You don't need to use any tricks to beat people who send their units somewhere and don't look at them at least once. Stopping mining like that is pretty bad and you're going to lose workers until you get actual units there regardless. Kudos to the effort but I can't see an instance when I would ever do this. It relies completely on your opponent being an idiot and you're just spreading your legs for the players who actually look at what's going on there, instead of doing what you can to respond properly to them.
You're not getting the idea.
You are caught off guard by a ling run-by. What do you do ? Pull back your units to your nexus, warp in some units if you can and then run your probes around waiting.
With this trick, you can do the exact same thing, except your probes won't die as quickly while your army gets there.
I'm not saying you can do it and then your workers are safe for the rest of the game ^^
Also, I said in the OP, this is nothing new with ranged units and hold position workers, the little trick here is that you can do it even if you don't have any units nearby.
On February 23 2012 05:53 eNtitY~ wrote: How is this new to anyone to just didn't buy the game? This has been done in so many competitive matches and has been known forever...
On February 23 2012 05:48 Lumi wrote: This is pretty bad honestly \: People at least look at their lings. You don't need to use any tricks to beat people who send their units somewhere and don't look at them at least once. Stopping mining like that is pretty bad and you're going to lose workers until you get actual units there regardless. Kudos to the effort but I can't see an instance when I would ever do this.
u could use this to protect your queen and let the queen deal dmg this is just one of the many instances you could be using it this...
Yeah sure like any idea in SC2 there are some "Coulds" but you could, and most often will simply be saying hey I'm here and I'm not running away, please own me. And it's pretty common se nse that you can surround static D so that you can put walls around static D so that it can't be hit by melee.. using workers to that effect is within the same concept.
you can hold position whatever you like not just workers its for instance it can be used to go into the mineral lines and hold position and and attack workers instead of A clicking they would attack the unit that is attacking them.
On February 23 2012 05:53 eNtitY~ wrote: How is this new to anyone to just didn't buy the game? This has been done in so many competitive matches and has been known forever...
It has not been widely known that melee units do this as well as ranged. I thought a unit had to actually attack somethign to get priority. But this shows they just have to be on an attack-move.
Haha OP trying to share an observation with the friendly community of TL and everyone rapes him..
It's easy to see that yeah, people do the hold position trick if there's a UNIT that is AUTO ATTACKING (IE marine) to protect the marine; however, as the OP suggests, it's never done if there's just probes..a lot of times i just right click them to my natural using camera keys but then i get scared 2 banes are gonna kill 40 scv in 1 second..
So kudos OP for your subtle take on this "trick", thanks for the consideration of the community. Shame on you posters for your blatantly inconsiderate connotations..
Edit: not all bad, but you obviously know who I'm talking about and it's just rude. If you know it, cool, but why feel the need to make negative posts insinuating the OP is doing something that offends you or something.
Widely known fact and has been abused numerous times (one way or another) to prevent lings from doing any damage whatsoever (regardless of how many lings attack).
Even if the zerg tries to counteract this by using the hold position on his zerglings himself, he will do considerably less damage, and is one of the reasons why zerg runbys do little to no damage to anyone that has decent understanding of unit AI (not every pro is aware of this, otherwise i wouldnt be facepalming every now and then when i watch a really good player fail at minimizing ling runby damage into his mineral line),
Its just a matter of time until everyone finally starts using this to decrease damage taken from lings, at which point ling runbys will be useless. An 8 man marine drop can kill an entire mineral line in a matter of seconds, while a huge army of zerglings cant take out remotely as much (even if given more time) if the opponent abuses unit AI with hold position (and smart positioning of workers), which imo is a huge imbalance in the game.
This could be hellpful in early pools zvz's scenarios. While forcing the attacker to hold position, the defender can more easily try to mineral walk and get a surround on the lings since they lose accelaration.
Cool man I like it. I think application for this would be later in the game right, as a reaction to speedling runby? When Zerg has a lot more going on than he does in the first minutes of the game.
Edit: If it's not new to you, congratulations, no need to post since you know it already and you get +1 internets. I know about worker and combat ai, but this is a specific implementation of it in a realistic scenario, and that's something I haven't thought about before because I don't have much time to. Thanks for posting Geiko
On February 23 2012 06:02 tehemperorer wrote: Cool man I like it. I think application for this would be later in the game right, as a reaction to speedling runby? When Zerg has a lot more going on than he does in the first minutes of the game.
Edit: If it's not new to you, congratulations, no need to post since you know it already and you get +1 internets. I know about worker and combat ai, but this is a specific implementation of it in a realistic scenario, and that's something I haven't thought about before because I don't have much time to. Thanks for posting Geiko
yes this is trick is not for early game scenarios because against early lings you usually need to attack with your workers or do some type of micro other than just stalling for time.
On February 23 2012 06:02 tehemperorer wrote: Cool man I like it. I think application for this would be later in the game right, as a reaction to speedling runby? When Zerg has a lot more going on than he does in the first minutes of the game.
Edit: If it's not new to you, congratulations, no need to post since you know it already and you get +1 internets. I know about worker and combat ai, but this is a specific implementation of it in a realistic scenario, and that's something I haven't thought about before because I don't have much time to. Thanks for posting Geiko
yes this is trick is not for early game scenarios because against early lings you usually need to attack with your workers or do some type of micro other than just stalling for time.
Right or if u FFE vs early pool there will be a cannon in your mineral line as a response and the lings will ignore the workers anyway and go for the cannon, which goes back to what you state "everyone knows to hp their workers to surround their cannons"
On February 23 2012 06:00 CrY. wrote: Haha OP trying to share an observation with the friendly community of TL and everyone rapes him..
It's easy to see that yeah, people do the hold position trick if there's a UNIT that is AUTO ATTACKING (IE marine) to protect the marine; however, as the OP suggests, it's never done if there's just probes..a lot of times i just right click them to my natural using camera keys but then i get scared 2 banes are gonna kill 40 scv in 1 second..
So kudos OP for your subtle take on this "trick", thanks for the consideration of the community. Shame on you posters for your blatantly inconsiderate connotations..
Edit: not all bad, but you obviously know who I'm talking about and it's just rude. If you know it, cool, but why feel the need to make negative posts insinuating the OP is doing something that offends you or something.
Well stated. Thanks for this take, Geiko. Given your contributions to TL I would assume that people would at least read the specifics of your OP before dismissing it as the same old worker-hold-position. I look forward to giving this a try.
Nice post OP. To the people saying hold position negates this: you'll are ignorant. The surface area on the probes is greatly minimized and a maximum of 2-3 lings alone can attack the probe ball in a mineral line. The OP demonstrates hold position micro for the zerglings in his video, showing how minimal the damage turns out to be. Get nydused? Ling runby? Heres a quick method to cut losses while forcing the zerg to micro instead of dancing his lings about. The basic idea may be well known, but there are many examples of pro games where they do not actually do this.
Wow thats pretty clever, if you could do it fast enough it would make ling run by way less effective while you warp in some units to deal with it.
I think half these people didn't read the OP, watched the video and responded according. I've done something simliar to this with a zlot at my choke before while getting 6 pooled, although not quite the same thing and not nearly as clever.
Can someone elaborate on this method, I still don't understand. You select all the probes and group them, right click them all on a probe in the middle of the ball and hit 'H' (H probes), and then click that probe you right clicked on and have it A move somewhere (A move Probe). This makes the zerglings ignore the 'H' probes and only try to get to the 'Amove probe'?
On February 23 2012 06:38 darkcloud8282 wrote: I thought everyone does hold position with their lings?
hold position with lings is effective only if there's a good spread of lings through the mineral line. but when this maneuver is done by the defender, there are only 3-4 workers exposed to 3-4 lings. and when those die, zerg has to move forward and hold position again.
On February 23 2012 05:53 eNtitY~ wrote: How is this new to anyone to just didn't buy the game? This has been done in so many competitive matches and has been known forever...
I've been playing since beta and this is news to me ^_^
I also watch a ton of streams when I have the chance (which is every other month, since I can't watch stream when I'm at work and I'm working one month at a time, stupid shitty internets >_<) and I've actually never heard mention of this.
On February 23 2012 06:42 Salv wrote: Can someone elaborate on this method, I still don't understand. You select all the probes and group them, right click them all on a probe in the middle of the ball and hit 'H' (H probes), and then click that probe you right clicked on and have it A move somewhere (A move Probe). This makes the zerglings ignore the 'H' probes and only try to get to the 'Amove probe'?
I did not know you could do this with only workers. I'll use it now that I know though.
EDIT It takes 6 drones to surround 1 drone when I tried. So just box 7 drones, click 1 drone, hold position, attack with that one drone and you're safe(r).
Hey, this is actually kinda cool, I like this I think some people misunderstand you and think you are referring to the fact that workers on hold position don't get included in threat calculations for army units and thus aren't attacked by a-move units, but in fact this trick is clearly a function of this fact that enables you to create a bubble of workers which will take absolutely no damage from an a-moved melee army (or, in fact, any army who's max range is less than the distance from the outside of the bubble to the worker in the middle.)
I think I'll use this against zealot warp-ins as a Zerg player, and also it'll be good to be aware of when I do get lings into mineral lines. Thanks!
On February 23 2012 07:06 UmiNotsuki wrote: Hey, this is actually kinda cool, I like this I think some people misunderstand you and think you are referring to the fact that workers on hold position don't get included in threat calculations for army units and thus aren't attacked by a-move units, but in fact this trick is clearly a function of this fact that enables you to create a bubble of workers which will take absolutely no damage from an a-moved melee army (or, in fact, any army who's max range is less than the distance from the outside of the bubble to the worker in the middle.)
I think I'll use this against zealot warp-ins as a Zerg player, and also it'll be good to be aware of when I do get lings into mineral lines. Thanks!
Not sure how effective this is against zealot warpins... It's probably better to run your drones away in that case. The trick is useful because against speedlings, there's really no other way to escape.
Clever trick. I think some people in this thread did not read your entire post, or don't understand what you're saying because I've never seen pros use the trick in this manner with probes only.
Cool thing. I've been doing something similar where I shift between a-moving and hold positioning my workers when I'm microing marines vs lings/zealots, but I'm gonna start doing this vs lings/zealots when they harass the mineral line as well.
Cool trick, I knew about the hold thing but not with a worker in the middle. It is very helpful as I don`t have random spines in middle of my worker line when a ling run by occurs. Doing it with just workers is great to buy time.
On February 23 2012 06:00 gh0un wrote: Widely known fact and has been abused numerous times (one way or another) to prevent lings from doing any damage whatsoever (regardless of how many lings attack).
Even if the zerg tries to counteract this by using the hold position on his zerglings himself, he will do considerably less damage, and is one of the reasons why zerg runbys do little to no damage to anyone that has decent understanding of unit AI (not every pro is aware of this, otherwise i wouldnt be facepalming every now and then when i watch a really good player fail at minimizing ling runby damage into his mineral line),
Its just a matter of time until everyone finally starts using this to decrease damage taken from lings, at which point ling runbys will be useless. An 8 man marine drop can kill an entire mineral line in a matter of seconds, while a huge army of zerglings cant take out remotely as much (even if given more time) if the opponent abuses unit AI with hold position (and smart positioning of workers), which imo is a huge imbalance in the game.
Whoa, what a HUGE IMBALANCE. The game is completely broken now. I'm going to quit SC2 because of this.
Anyways, on topic. It's an awesome trick because if the zerg a-moves into the mineral line, the zerglings will herpderp trying to kill the worker in the middle. If the zerg wants to do any decent damage, he'll have to focus on microing his lings (less time spent macroing).
As a zerg you'd have to do maybe 4-8 attack probe commands on shift so you gain access to the core probe. It does take some time to do, and can be great if the zerg is not paying attention, but the 100% attention claim seems silly.
EDIT: Extremely useful for this though
On February 23 2012 05:48 Lumi wrote: u could use this to protect your queen and let the queen deal dmg this is just one of the many instances you could be using it this...
On February 23 2012 08:49 scarper65 wrote: I've always done this against helions that ended up in my mineral line, but I never thought to do it with melee units. Great find
Im pretty sure that against hellions, you want to spread your workers out as much as possible, not clump them together.
On February 23 2012 08:49 scarper65 wrote: I've always done this against helions that ended up in my mineral line, but I never thought to do it with melee units. Great find
Hellions would just shoot the attacking probe and roast every other probe along with it.
Honestly I have known this forever. It is really though when defending a marine SCV all in. I have seen it quite a few times from both pros and on ladder. That said I can see how people haven't noticed because it can be quite subtle. But yeah it is definitely not something new.
Edit: or well I guess it isn't exactly the same. But the idea that workers who are not attacking or on attack move (hostile) is lower priority and messing with the AI especially for melee units are used quite often. That said I don't know if I find this very usefull in a real game. Maybe there is a good situation for it. But that is just maybe.
this has been around for quite a while, also watch Genius defended against DRG with canon like this easily. If you're a Zerg, just put lings on hold as well
On February 23 2012 10:56 tuho12345 wrote: this has been around for quite a while, also watch Genius defended against DRG with canon like this easily. If you're a Zerg, just put lings on hold as well
I love TL, I really do, but this thread makes me quite sad
On February 23 2012 06:38 darkcloud8282 wrote: I thought everyone does hold position with their lings?
hold position with lings is effective only if there's a good spread of lings through the mineral line. but when this maneuver is done by the defender, there are only 3-4 workers exposed to 3-4 lings. and when those die, zerg has to move forward and hold position again.
I did some hold position micro with the zerglings in the video. As you can see, and as Tyler pointed out, it takes considerably more time to kill the probes.
The a-moved probe in the middle of the ball is key. Even though it doesn't attack the lings, it pulls the aggro. If the lings are on a-move, then they will attempt to get at that probe which they cannot do on account of the other probes on hold position.
Even though it doesn't attack the lings, it pulls the aggro. This is the novel part of this post and shows that you can help save your workers better when a ranged unit is not immediately nearby.
On February 23 2012 10:56 tuho12345 wrote: this has been around for quite a while, also watch Genius defended against DRG with canon like this easily. If you're a Zerg, just put lings on hold as well
Another one who has reading comprehension problems.
Alright Geiko let me put it to you more simply. This is bad because it depends on your opponent not looking (we call this taking a risk, and vs specifically bad players [makes no sense]), and has minimal effects of reducing how many workers you will lose if they aren't awful and are actually looking. But what WILL happen, guaranteed everytime, is you taking a dump on your economy, losing a lot of money every second. And when you go back to mining they have to respread and travel around waiting for a chance to double up on a node properly again, and you have to send guys back on gas etc, eating up APM. Why would you even hold position them if this is just about blocking off surface area? Or is it about abusing players who don't even watch what they are doing? May as well be attacking them or blocking off smaller chokes than in the middle of your mineral line. It just doesn't make sense to guarantee pooping on your own econ just to take a gamble vs someone that depends on them being horrible, as if people need tricks vs such players.
Though, I have just had a thought, which is that this could be decent if you're grabbing the front (exposed) line of probes and mineral walking them back so that you aren't actually losing any probes. While having them all on the attack command. But again, even this is fairly common sense static defense \=
And yes, Husky did completely steal this and not give you credit. He's Scumbag Steve'n you man.
On February 23 2012 11:11 Lumi wrote: Alright Geiko let me put it to you more simply. This is bad because it depends on your opponent not looking, and has minimal effects of reducing how many workers you will lose. The exchange is that you're always going to take a dump on your economy losing a lot of money every second. This will definitely happen everytime you hold position your workers. And when you go back to mining they have to respread and travel around waiting for a chance to double up on a node properly again, and you have to send guys back on gas etc, eating up APM. Why would you even hold position them if this is just about blocking off surface area? May as well be attacking them or blocking off smaller chokes than in the middle of your mineral line.
Though, I have just had a thought, which is that this could be decent if you're grabbing the front (exposed) line of probes and mineral walking them back so that you aren't actually losing any probes. While having them all on the attack command. But again, even this is fairly common sense static defense \=
And yes, Husky did completely steal this and not give you credit. He's Scumbag Steve'n you man.
...
Ok, so 30 lings run towards your undefended expansion, you have no units near-by (lets say 15 seconds away) and warpgates on cool down, what do you do ?
On February 23 2012 11:11 Lumi wrote: Alright Geiko let me put it to you more simply. This is bad because it depends on your opponent not looking, and has minimal effects of reducing how many workers you will lose. The exchange is that you're always going to take a dump on your economy losing a lot of money every second. This will definitely happen everytime you hold position your workers. And when you go back to mining they have to respread and travel around waiting for a chance to double up on a node properly again, and you have to send guys back on gas etc, eating up APM. Why would you even hold position them if this is just about blocking off surface area? May as well be attacking them or blocking off smaller chokes than in the middle of your mineral line.
Though, I have just had a thought, which is that this could be decent if you're grabbing the front (exposed) line of probes and mineral walking them back so that you aren't actually losing any probes. While having them all on the attack command. But again, even this is fairly common sense static defense \=
And yes, Husky did completely steal this and not give you credit. He's Scumbag Steve'n you man.
Minimal effects? Every time they kill the probes on hold position they have to micro them forward and hold position again to kill another 3-4 probes. Meanwhile, I think it is naturally assumed your army is somewhere away from your base threatening the Zerg, forcing his attention elsewhere. For them to hold off your aggression while wasting time moving and holding-positioning their ling run-by (which is no longer a "run-by" at this point), forces more of their attention away from the threat at their doorstep and at their failed attempt to do significant damage within your base.
Also, is it better economically to LOSE the probes altogether, or lose the mining time from them being on hold position? It's not even debatable. I can't believe you think it's' better to attack them—guaranteeing their death—than to leave them on hold position
On February 23 2012 11:11 Lumi wrote: Alright Geiko let me put it to you more simply. This is bad because it depends on your opponent not looking, and has minimal effects of reducing how many workers you will lose. The exchange is that you're always going to take a dump on your economy losing a lot of money every second. This will definitely happen everytime you hold position your workers. And when you go back to mining they have to respread and travel around waiting for a chance to double up on a node properly again, and you have to send guys back on gas etc, eating up APM. Why would you even hold position them if this is just about blocking off surface area? May as well be attacking them or blocking off smaller chokes than in the middle of your mineral line.
Though, I have just had a thought, which is that this could be decent if you're grabbing the front (exposed) line of probes and mineral walking them back so that you aren't actually losing any probes. While having them all on the attack command. But again, even this is fairly common sense static defense \=
And yes, Husky did completely steal this and not give you credit. He's Scumbag Steve'n you man.
...
Ok, so 30 lings run towards your undefended expansion, you have no units near-by (lets say 15 seconds away) and warpgates on cool down, what do yo do ?
Hate myself for being so bad of a player that I would actually find myself in a situation theorycrafted by a silver league understanding of the game and its likely scenarios.
But seriously, what I would do is not have a bunch of probes hanging out at an undefended expansion. Nothing about that circumstance is plausible. Let's stick to reasonable scenarios and try to address the points I've made, because they refute the sense of this idea quite well. And look man, I'm not trying to be closed-minded and avoid things that would help me out in this game - that would be plain dumb. It just doesn't stand up to the points I've made.
And Kevin, do you know what rally commands are? And while you m ention one point that I just shit on, I provide a comprehensive host of reasoning on the matter, to which you pointedly did not, and presumably cannot address. I've gotta get out of here, I knew this should have been posted in the strategy forums that I so long ago learned to stay away from!
On February 23 2012 11:11 Lumi wrote: Alright Geiko let me put it to you more simply. This is bad because it depends on your opponent not looking, and has minimal effects of reducing how many workers you will lose. The exchange is that you're always going to take a dump on your economy losing a lot of money every second. This will definitely happen everytime you hold position your workers. And when you go back to mining they have to respread and travel around waiting for a chance to double up on a node properly again, and you have to send guys back on gas etc, eating up APM. Why would you even hold position them if this is just about blocking off surface area? May as well be attacking them or blocking off smaller chokes than in the middle of your mineral line.
Though, I have just had a thought, which is that this could be decent if you're grabbing the front (exposed) line of probes and mineral walking them back so that you aren't actually losing any probes. While having them all on the attack command. But again, even this is fairly common sense static defense \=
And yes, Husky did completely steal this and not give you credit. He's Scumbag Steve'n you man.
...
Ok, so 30 lings run towards your undefended expansion, you have no units near-by (lets say 15 seconds away) and warpgates on cool down, what do yo do ?
Hate myself for being so bad of a player that I would actually find myself in a situation theorycrafted by a silver league understanding of the game and its likely scenarios.
But seriously, what I would do is not have a bunch of probes hanging out at an undefended expansion. Nothing about that circumstance is plausible. Let's stick to reasonable scenarios and try to address the points I've made, because they refute the sense of this idea quite well. And look man, I'm not trying to be closed-minded and avoid things that would help me out in this game - that would be plain dumb. It just doesn't stand up to the points I've made.
And Kevin, do you know what rally commands are? \= I've gotta get out of here, I knew this should have been posted in the strategy forums that I so long ago learned to stay away from!
I'm concerned about Husky stealing this for video content. That's not cool. I know he likes to make topics about popular tricks as they are being talked about, but not referencing his source is kind of lame.
On February 23 2012 10:56 tuho12345 wrote: this has been around for quite a while, also watch Genius defended against DRG with canon like this easily. If you're a Zerg, just put lings on hold as well
Another one who has reading comprehension problems.
doesn't make any different, just press hold on the workers around 1 object, ling's AI and melee units in general just attack the threatening unit, not the non-threatening. p/s: you should also stop being so dangerous lol.
To all who said this is old, wtf you talking about? Sure holding workers is from bw, but the specific technique to have the middle worker go on attack command is quite new, and ill call bull otherwise. Nicely done OP, and fuck the haters.
On February 23 2012 10:56 tuho12345 wrote: this has been around for quite a while, also watch Genius defended against DRG with canon like this easily. If you're a Zerg, just put lings on hold as well
I love TL, I really do, but this thread makes me quite sad
On February 23 2012 06:38 darkcloud8282 wrote: I thought everyone does hold position with their lings?
When they are in the mineral line. This is for when they are on A-move and it forces the zerg to pay attention. If you are chobo/gosu/korean you can even repeat this trick and mineral walk away workers being hurt by held position lings, and then the lings will have to be microed again.
My contribution to this idea: Do you really need all those workers surrounding the one probe? What if you make like -3 workers mine in the same area, they won't be hurt cuz the probe wall with the A-moved probe will be attracting em. And it'll get you some minerals.
Edit: This needs to be repeated, you can't say "this has been done with cannons" because this example illustrates that a melee unit on attack move surrounded by probes works as well. OR, read this post
On February 23 2012 11:05 BoxingKangaroo wrote: For those still not getting it:
The a-moved probe in the middle of the ball is key. Even though it doesn't attack the lings, it pulls the aggro. If the lings are on a-move, then they will attempt to get at that probe which they cannot do on account of the other probes on hold position.
Even though it doesn't attack the lings, it pulls the aggro. This is the novel part of this post and shows that you can help save your workers better when a ranged unit is not immediately nearby.
i think the difference between this and how you often see a cannon surround or a spine surround or even a queen surround to prevent death. Is that in this case theres no need for a fighter unit you just make the probe the fighter unit by giving it an attack command. its cute but i doubt well see too much use of it in this specific way
On February 23 2012 11:11 Lumi wrote: Alright Geiko let me put it to you more simply. This is bad because it depends on your opponent not looking, and has minimal effects of reducing how many workers you will lose. The exchange is that you're always going to take a dump on your economy losing a lot of money every second. This will definitely happen everytime you hold position your workers. And when you go back to mining they have to respread and travel around waiting for a chance to double up on a node properly again, and you have to send guys back on gas etc, eating up APM. Why would you even hold position them if this is just about blocking off surface area? May as well be attacking them or blocking off smaller chokes than in the middle of your mineral line.
Though, I have just had a thought, which is that this could be decent if you're grabbing the front (exposed) line of probes and mineral walking them back so that you aren't actually losing any probes. While having them all on the attack command. But again, even this is fairly common sense static defense \=
And yes, Husky did completely steal this and not give you credit. He's Scumbag Steve'n you man.
...
Ok, so 30 lings run towards your undefended expansion, you have no units near-by (lets say 15 seconds away) and warpgates on cool down, what do yo do ?
Hate myself for being so bad of a player that I would actually find myself in a situation theorycrafted by a silver league understanding of the game and its likely scenarios.
But seriously, what I would do is not have a bunch of probes hanging out at an undefended expansion. Nothing about that circumstance is plausible. Let's stick to reasonable scenarios and try to address the points I've made, because they refute the sense of this idea quite well. And look man, I'm not trying to be closed-minded and avoid things that would help me out in this game - that would be plain dumb. It just doesn't stand up to the points I've made.
And Kevin, do you know what rally commands are? And while you m ention one point that I just shit on, I provide a comprehensive host of reasoning on the matter, to which you pointedly did not, and presumably cannot address. I've gotta get out of here, I knew this should have been posted in the strategy forums that I so long ago learned to stay away from!
I do know what rally commands are. Your point being?
Your main point is that this is a "bad" idea, and your "host" of reasoning is limited to two points—the "minimal" effects of putting probes on hold position in regards to the rate at which they will die, and the tremendous amount of mineral time lost by putting them on hold position—both of which I explicitly addressed in my post. But seeing how you missed it, I'll restate it in more detail.
Your claim that this is only effective if your opponent is not looking is flat out wrong, as mentioned by Tyler/Nony and displayed in the OP's video. Only 3-4 probes are exposed at a time, meaning only 3-4 probes can be killed per hold position. Whether or not the Zerg opponent is looking has no effect on this.
And while your statement that this will adversely effect one's economy is completely true, the alternative you pose—that it would be better to just attack the lings with your probes—leads to an even worse outcome: the death of all your probes. Also, the amount of APM required to put guys back on gas is reduced by the fact that in hold position, the probes aren't moving.
Lastly, saying that this is simply silver-level theorycrafting with implausible scenarios blatantly ignores the high frequency of ling run-bys even in pro-level games. While it may be a simplified version of what takes place, to dismiss it as irrelevant in higher leagues of play is downright ignorant.
Believe me, with this kind of logic and flat-out arrogance, the void from your absence from the Strategy section on TL is not missed.
Dude, I just watched huskies, thing...looks like he stole it, probably his friend told him after seeing your trick and thought it would make a good video...husky doesn't seem like that type to "steal" from the community I am blaming his buddy.
On February 23 2012 12:37 naux wrote: the OP is just trying to help people out.. just because "some" people already know about this doesnt mean the other 90 percent do..
On February 23 2012 11:11 Lumi wrote: Alright Geiko let me put it to you more simply. This is bad because it depends on your opponent not looking, and has minimal effects of reducing how many workers you will lose. The exchange is that you're always going to take a dump on your economy losing a lot of money every second. This will definitely happen everytime you hold position your workers. And when you go back to mining they have to respread and travel around waiting for a chance to double up on a node properly again, and you have to send guys back on gas etc, eating up APM. Why would you even hold position them if this is just about blocking off surface area? May as well be attacking them or blocking off smaller chokes than in the middle of your mineral line.
Though, I have just had a thought, which is that this could be decent if you're grabbing the front (exposed) line of probes and mineral walking them back so that you aren't actually losing any probes. While having them all on the attack command. But again, even this is fairly common sense static defense \=
And yes, Husky did completely steal this and not give you credit. He's Scumbag Steve'n you man.
...
Ok, so 30 lings run towards your undefended expansion, you have no units near-by (lets say 15 seconds away) and warpgates on cool down, what do yo do ?
Hate myself for being so bad of a player that I would actually find myself in a situation theorycrafted by a silver league understanding of the game and its likely scenarios.
But seriously, what I would do is not have a bunch of probes hanging out at an undefended expansion. Nothing about that circumstance is plausible. Let's stick to reasonable scenarios and try to address the points I've made, because they refute the sense of this idea quite well. And look man, I'm not trying to be closed-minded and avoid things that would help me out in this game - that would be plain dumb. It just doesn't stand up to the points I've made.
And Kevin, do you know what rally commands are? And while you m ention one point that I just shit on, I provide a comprehensive host of reasoning on the matter, to which you pointedly did not, and presumably cannot address. I've gotta get out of here, I knew this should have been posted in the strategy forums that I so long ago learned to stay away from!
I do know what rally commands are. Your point being?
Your main point is that this is a "bad" idea, and your "host" of reasoning is limited to two points—the "minimal" effects of putting probes on hold position in regards to the rate at which they will die, and the tremendous amount of mineral time lost by putting them on hold position—both of which I explicitly addressed in my post. But seeing how you missed it, I'll restate it in more detail.
Your claim that this is only effective if your opponent is not looking is flat out wrong, as mentioned by Tyler/Nony and displayed in the OP's video. Only 3-4 probes are exposed at a time, meaning only 3-4 probes can be killed per hold position. Whether or not the Zerg opponent is looking has no effect on this.
And while your statement that this will adversely effect one's economy is completely true, the alternative you pose—that it would be better to just attack the lings with your probes—leads to an even worse outcome: the death of all your probes. Also, the amount of APM required to put guys back on gas is reduced by the fact that in hold position, the probes aren't moving.
Lastly, saying that this is simply silver-level theorycrafting with implausible scenarios blatantly ignores the high frequency of ling run-bys even in pro-level games. While it may be a simplified version of what takes place, to dismiss it as irrelevant in higher leagues of play is downright ignorant.
Believe me, with this kind of logic and flat-out arrogance, the void from your absence from the Strategy section on TL is not missed.
And God looked at this post and thought: It was good
Kevin, I'm a high masters zerg player and I'd love it if people did this. Where's your credibility coming from? And how do you address that this doesn't get done by pro players, ever, in any of those games where ling run-bys take place at the pro level? I hate to burst your bubble but this isn't some groundbreaking thought that's going to change the game. It's a basic abuse of very simple ai that many people understand would, could w ork, but that is just plain garbage. But I'll let every game of high level SC you ever watch do the talking for me, since you're not listening.
On February 23 2012 13:21 Lumi wrote: Kevin, I'm a high masters zerg player and I'd love it if people did this. Where's your credibility coming from? And how do you address that this doesn't get done by pro players, ever, in any of those games where ling run-bys take place at the pro level? I hate to burst your bubble but this isn't some groundbreaking thought that's going to change the game. It's a basic abuse of very simple ai that many people understand would, could w ork, but that is just plain garbage. But I'll let every game of high level SC you ever watch do the talking for me, since you're not listening.
I think you need to chill out man. The trick's effectiveness has not been thoroughly tested yet.
its not really a trick and was done before but when you play on a high level the zerg will watch/micro his zerglings and if someone does this "trick" you just hold position and you will kill them probably a little bit slower but it is nothing i would focus on as protoss/terran when there is a runby.
It is way better to run away your workers(because you will only lose 1 or 2 that way) and warp in some units if you are protoss. If you are a terran you will defend it with new reeinforcements and zerg is so quick anyway that zergling runbys aren't that big of a problem because you are anyway dead if a huge ball of lings streams in your base or you didn't have enough defensive banelings or poor queen placement.
probably this trick works nice on silver/gold level but not on diamond or masters.
this is a sick trick, i used to try to just hold position my probes to prevent a speedling run by when i forge FE, only to watch the lings literally push all my units out of the way resulting in me rage quitting. Glad i saw this thread
this is really cool. i didnt think of doing it with other workers, this should save me a lot of grief with runbys where i cant warp in a zealot to block off a ramp. thanks for posting
I've seen this at least a dozen of times over the past year in 4v4, against rushes.
Imo, against a limited number of zerglings it's way better to threaten a surround than trying this trick. And in the mid/late game, I've never seen it, it's really not pratical, at least at my lvl (diamond, ex-master).
Husky with the obvious trick steal and bad explanation why this works fast (since geiko purposefully says to not move the mouse and just left click the probe in order to save time, instead husky moves the mouse and then tries to click the one that is being followed anyways, even though clicking any probe in the middle would suffice, basically he shits on the whole time saving part). Not even crediting anyone, so hilarious xD
People are not understanding what the OP is pointing at.... HE KNOWS that this is known already, and people use it to protect cannons/marines etc.
BUT what he is pointing at, that it can be used in a more general matter (without any offensive power nearby). When there's a ling runby in your main/expo You can either do -mineral walk with workers, Speedlings will a walk next to it and kill like 5 workers, till your army arrives But the OP says you can also do this. And I think he is right that you lose less workers in this way. And 99% of the people choose to just mineral walk away, instead of useing holdposition trick to buy time for the army to come.
On February 23 2012 06:38 darkcloud8282 wrote: I thought everyone does hold position with their lings?
hold position with lings is effective only if there's a good spread of lings through the mineral line. but when this maneuver is done by the defender, there are only 3-4 workers exposed to 3-4 lings. and when those die, zerg has to move forward and hold position again.
Admittedly theorycrafting a bit here, and I can't test it because I'm at work, but...
Could this be made even more potent by using your Nexus as well? Assuming that someone has a-moved your worker line with some lings could you attack move your own Nexus, then hold-position just a few workers around the attacking probe whilst leaving the rest of your probes to mine?
One probe isn't going to kill a nexus before you can get units back/out to defend, the probe will still be attacking so should be on the higher "threat level" and fewer probes to surround will allow you to keep mining to produce more defences.
Thoughts?
Edit: Haha, I think the Protoss in me was showing there. Wasn't until after I posted that I realised what I'd typed. Of course this would work the same way with Drones and a Hatchery and SCVs and a CC.
On February 23 2012 18:44 gh0un wrote: Husky with the obvious trick steal and bad explanation why this works fast (since geiko purposefully says to not move the mouse and just left click the probe in order to save time, instead husky moves the mouse and then tries to click the one that is being followed anyways, even though clicking any probe in the middle would suffice, basically he shits on the whole time saving part). Not even crediting anyone, so hilarious xD
There was a comment on his youtube video with 70+ thumbs up saying "you should have cited your source husky". He took the time to erase the comment but couldn't take 10 more seconds to put the link to the TL thread in his description ^^
The comment is still there. "Top comments" refresh a lot, even if they aren't the actual most-thumbed up comments. I really want to give Husky the benefit of the doubt, but he's being awfully quiet. Maybe he thought he sourced it but forgot? Maybe his friend found this TL post and told him about it as if it were an original idea?
I'm gonna keep an eye on his upcoming videos and see if this is actually a habit. Husky probably makes the majority of his income on his Youtube partnership, so it's in his best interest to make videos worth watching, but I wonder if he intentionally or accidentally chose to not cite his source.
On February 23 2012 20:10 Lightspeaker wrote: Admittedly theorycrafting a bit here, and I can't test it because I'm at work, but...
Could this be made even more potent by using your Nexus as well? Assuming that someone has a-moved your worker line with some lings could you attack move your own Nexus, then hold-position just a few workers around the attacking probe whilst leaving the rest of your probes to mine?
One probe isn't going to kill a nexus before you can get units back/out to defend, the probe will still be attacking so should be on the higher "threat level" and fewer probes to surround will allow you to keep mining to produce more defences.
Thoughts?
Edit: Haha, I think the Protoss in me was showing there. Wasn't until after I posted that I realised what I'd typed. Of course this would work the same way with Drones and a Hatchery and SCVs and a CC.
Someone should test this sounds viable, and rly pretty good.
On February 23 2012 19:45 Nawe wrote: every smart zerg put lings on hold position and then gg probes
As Nony already covered, that doesn't cut it vs this. Hold position is good when you have like 10-20 lings in the opponents mineral line with their workers grabbing minerals to stop pathing issues since the workers will run past several lings hitting them, without the lings running at enemies. In a situation such as shown in the OP, your lings will run into the mineral line, hold, and only a few lings will be hitting a few workers. Really ineffective.
On February 23 2012 20:10 Lightspeaker wrote: Admittedly theorycrafting a bit here, and I can't test it because I'm at work, but...
Could this be made even more potent by using your Nexus as well? Assuming that someone has a-moved your worker line with some lings could you attack move your own Nexus, then hold-position just a few workers around the attacking probe whilst leaving the rest of your probes to mine?
One probe isn't going to kill a nexus before you can get units back/out to defend, the probe will still be attacking so should be on the higher "threat level" and fewer probes to surround will allow you to keep mining to produce more defences.
Thoughts?
Edit: Haha, I think the Protoss in me was showing there. Wasn't until after I posted that I realised what I'd typed. Of course this would work the same way with Drones and a Hatchery and SCVs and a CC.
Nope. It would be too easy for the other player to target fire those few probes then get to the one a-moving. I suppose you can still mine with a few workers and pull this off just as effectively as having all your workers cease mining though.
On February 23 2012 13:21 Lumi wrote: Kevin, I'm a high masters zerg player and I'd love it if people did this. Where's your credibility coming from? And how do you address that this doesn't get done by pro players, ever, in any of those games where ling run-bys take place at the pro level? I hate to burst your bubble but this isn't some groundbreaking thought that's going to change the game. It's a basic abuse of very simple ai that many people understand would, could w ork, but that is just plain garbage. But I'll let every game of high level SC you ever watch do the talking for me, since you're not listening.
Don't ever drop at high level starcraft cos it will definitely get spotted. Don't ever attempt runbys at high masters cos it will never work. Dont ever make mutas at high level cos harrassment will never work. Players will always spot that and will have marines/stalkers/turrets ready at the right place and the right time. Don't use warp prisms. Ever. cos high masters players will see it coming. Don't ever make DTs. Opponent will definitely have detection ready. Don't ever make observers. Your opponent will definitely spot them.
You've never had a runby catch you off guard? You're really good.....you should go win GSL or MLG or something....I think even pro players have had lings run into their expansions occasionally.
On February 23 2012 13:21 Lumi wrote: Kevin, I'm a high masters zerg player and I'd love it if people did this. Where's your credibility coming from? And how do you address that this doesn't get done by pro players, ever, in any of those games where ling run-bys take place at the pro level? I hate to burst your bubble but this isn't some groundbreaking thought that's going to change the game. It's a basic abuse of very simple ai that many people understand would, could w ork, but that is just plain garbage. But I'll let every game of high level SC you ever watch do the talking for me, since you're not listening.
Don't ever drop at high level starcraft cos it will definitely get spotted. Don't ever attempt runbys at high masters cos it will never work. Dont ever make mutas at high level cos harrassment will never work. Players will always spot that and will have marines/stalkers/turrets ready at the right place and the right time. Don't use warp prisms. Ever. cos high masters players will see it coming. Don't ever make DTs. Opponent will definitely have detection ready. Don't ever make observers. Your opponent will definitely spot them.
You've never had a runby catch you off guard? You're really good.....you should go win GSL or MLG or something....I think even pro players have had lings run into their expansions occasionally.
This basically sums up my reaction to every post in TL's strategy forum.
No TRUE scotsman pro would fall for something like this!
People miss the point that the thread simply describes a technique that can be used, not an "I Win" button.
EPT
)
sounds viable, and rly pretty good.
