On February 11 2012 05:04 Arcanefrost wrote: I feel like the range upgrade should be researched at cyber core instead of at the fleet beacon. Right now I don't think reactive phoenixes will work any better than before because it takes too long to tech there, and you have to delay TC for it. If you opened phoenix it's a different story, but no ONE has problems with muta after opening phoenix anyway.
Maybe it will work even if you open with voids from a single stargate and that's the biggest improvement I can think of (in the current metagame). Fleet Beacon takes 60 seconds to build and you can gain some time with a couple cannons... if you scout a Spire in time you should be able to respond to the first flock of mutas and eventually regain map control.
i mean... I think we all agree that stargate + beacon isn't a reactive build. But beacon after a stargate opening... eh, I'll give it a try.
Since the Phoenix Change discussion thread was closed (Why would you close that? Easier to follow discussion when the topics are seperated like that ), here's a reply I was about to post in that thread.
On February 11 2012 05:34 Kluey wrote: This is just dumb. Instead of saying "herp derp, here's an upgrade that cures everything!", why don't you motivate players to play better? Players don't die to Mutalisks anymore if they are any good.
PvZ Mutalisk playstyle was completely balanced. The better player won. Now it will be more or less, build order wins.
Ok, first of all, it seems that you are insinuating that Phoenix vs Mutas will be a build order win after the patch.
Fleet Beacon is 300m 200g and takes 60 seconds to build. I'm sure the upgrade will be something like 150/150 or 200/200 and somewhere around 100 seconds. To even get to that point, you'd probably have to cut Phoenix production, as they build fast and cost 100 gas a piece. By the time this upgrade is out, the Zerg should have been able to figure out what the Protoss is doing, and should be able to respond accordingly.
If the Protoss decide to go for Phoenix range, you could add 3-4 Corruptors to your Muta ball, and make the micro battle a lot more difficult for the Protoss (Phoenix still suck vs Corruptor, and would have same range.). Of course this also demands more control from the Zerg as well. Or the Zerg can go for Infestors, which isn't any more of an investment than the Fleet Beacon and upgrade is for Protoss. Of course this will cut into Muta production, but it'll be worth it if you're able to Fungal those Phoenixes.
So basically it all comes down to the decisions each player make, and their ability to micro their units.
Not everything is as black and white as you make it out to be.
On February 11 2012 05:46 Mr Showtime wrote: Everything here is good except Phoenix upgrade. The say that it is a result of the stats in PvZ. But phoenix already shit on mutas? Not sure why they are doing this.
Sigh. Phoenix are only good vs Mutas in the very low numbers. The situation that Blizzard adressed was mass muta, where Muta splash would competely demolish Phoenixes. Get your facts straight.
On February 11 2012 05:47 CaptainCrush wrote: I honestly dont know how I'm going to deal with ultras in TvZ anymore.... they are unstoppable as is if the zerg gets chitanous plating. I'm fine with the mule thing but I really think I might drop a league soon if they keep this up
On February 11 2012 05:45 Big J wrote: Hm. I thought the Phoenix would get 0.5-1range buff. 2range as upgrade... Don't know really.
Snipe change, is another thing I'm not too sure off (as a zerg player). +25 vs psyonic seems very weird and way to "niche", but I like that there is something done about the "snipe is good vs (nearly) everything that zerg has".
Mules the same on gold and blue minerals is great, and I don't think it will change too much, but hopefully lead to a comeback of gold minerals in tournaments.
Probably not. Right now, gold minerals only benefit zerg with that change, and only when they can rush to take a fast hatch there (like in PvZ against a FFE). You get pretty much the same income fully saturated with a gold as with a blue since they're always 2 mineral patches smaller, so there's really no point. Protoss never had any gain from them at all, and terran only gained due to the mule. It's pointless to have them. They're also always going to be inherently imbalanced in some respect, regardless of how many patches are there, because certain races have an easier time of taking them (planetary fortress anyone?).
With the change to snipe I think that Terrans will use ghost more defensively and maybe start using nukes just to zone out Broodlords in lategame battles. I've seen it done a couple times already in GSL.
In my Terran opinion, the Ghost nerf is bullshit for Terran....and Zerg
I think ForGG vs. Leenock in round of 32 of Code shows that ghost in TvZ can be countered effectively at high levels (yes he did clump them together for the fungal). Compare that game with how Nestea and July tried to handle mass ghosts last year (I reference the games farther down) Now I know that since MVP started going mass ghost late game it has become popular (because it works under certain conditions), but I don't buy into this blind building of ghosts equals some sort of imbalance. IMO ghosts aren't really that effective against ling/bling/muta, there real effectiveness only comes into play when infestors, and then broods and ultras come on the field (unless you have gosu snipe skills or mass ghost medivac is some nasty unit composition that I haven't really tried yet ; - ). When a bunch of broods or ultras come out you are going to need more than a handful ghosts to snipe all them. Which means you are going to have to anticipate and prepare for the late game tech switch well in advance so that you can have numbers, cloak, and energery saved up. Every time that I can think of where ghost was really effective lat game (with regards to snipe vs. ultra or broods) TvZ in pro play, is when the zerg massed almost exclusively brood corruptor or ultra. The most notable games off the top of my head being the metalopolis MVP vs July and MVP vs. Nestea at Blizzcon. I am not going to lie, if I can prepare for broods or ultras, I love that the zerg make that tech switch, because mass ghosts do own it. But you can't crank out 10 or 12 ghosts when you see the ultras or the broods coming if you missed scouting the greater spire or cavern (you may notice a lag in unit production or composition). I think for too long broodlord or ultra was the finishing move for zerg when terrans didn't really know how to handle it. I honestly think Blizzard deprived zerg of becoming better players with this nerf. I think part of the fun of this game is trying to solve problems (i.e., like how to handle mass ghost), not waiting for Blizzard to nerf it.
For the sake of rant...Since its OP that ghost kill off the expensive broods and ultras too easily, my meager voice votes for a nerf to corruptors so I can build BC's....wait there is a reason that Terran don't mass BCS in TvZ...hmmm...me thinks there might be a partial line of thought that zerg could apply
On February 11 2012 05:24 Bobgrimly wrote: I really don't get all the terrans in this thread... Wah snipe is nerfed I can't play against zerg because my vikings will be fungaled..... That is singularly the most retarded statement EVER. Snipe is still as it was against infestors. (IT STILL DOES 45 DAMAGE TO INFESTORS) Now though instead of sniping the broodlords and auto winning you just switch target to the infestors guarding them and SNIPE THE INFESTOR. Now the broodlords have no protection and one viking can beat 50 broodlords (just might take a while)
Seriously anyone qqing about this change is just upset that they can't mass one unit to win. Oh no. Scanning is so hard.
You will be eaten alive, because you don't know what you are talking about and you write like you ate all wisdom there is in sc2..
Cloak ghost... run towards SLOWLY moving broodlords. If you can't see infestors scan... you can now see burrowed and a lot more... find infestors.... queue up snipes... goodbye infestors. They can't fungal ghosts when they get sniped. A zerg would have to see you coming and have taken plenty of steps to prevent that. At the same time vikings can be pot shotting the broodlords and forcing infestors to come to the front. This forces the infestors forward and makes them easy targets for cloaked ghosts.
There is nothing wrong with this scenario. I have seen it happen in many tvz games just with usually ghosts sniping EVERYTHING. Now they can snipe infestors then burn energy to lower broodlord hp if they want. But not quite so stupidly op as it was. Being able to queue up snipe on a unit means the zerg has no time to react. The broodlords just evaporate. At least now you run some risk as a terran from broodlords.
By plenty of steps to prevent cloaked ghosts you mean like morph single overseer?
By morph single overseer I take it you failed to notice GHOSTS CAN SNIPE OVERSEERS AND VIKINGS HAVE STUPID RANGE.
You make it sound like zerg has it easy. You obviously have never watched or played in high level games. Overseers do not live long when ghosts are around... or worse... ghosts and vikings. Zerg usually has to morph like 5 if the terran is doing his job just to prevent autoloss.
The point is yes the zerg can do some things to win... but the terran also has plenty of tools to use and now just has to rely on something other than MASS SNIPE LULZ.
This is called balance. When you can't win with just one unit and the enemy has to use multiple units to counter your counters and vice versa.
And if you talk about approaching broodlords then you have never approached a tank line knowing you will lose half your forces just getting to it... before you can do damage. (that is hyperbole but I figured that was how you structure your arguments)
lol, so you snipe overseers and than stare at infestors with no energy.. :D Man, seriously, put your shit together and stop writing essays lacking any sign of logic. You telling me to go in with Vikings/Ghosts to snipe 2-3 overseers? This is your adivce? Just answer yes/no so I know our conversation isn't waste of time..
Snipe change is silly, the only place that it is a problem is against massive units (brood lords, ultras), therefore if anything is even needed, it should be 45 dmg - 25 vs massive. Only change that would even make sense at all.
On February 11 2012 05:38 ImHuko wrote: The phoenix could infinitely kite mutalisks with PERFECT micro, with range buff, you don't even need nearly close to perfect micro to do that now. Instead of giving Protoss an option vs mutalisks, they remove the mutalisk option all-together.
This is where your wrong. With PERFECT MICRO and the Zerg player A-MOVING you can kite forever without going away. When the Zerg player uses multiple groups. Or even is running away then turns around quickly for a volley. It's damn near IMPOSSIBLE to not take a hit. Before the buff it would still require a large number of Phoenix to kill a large number of Mutas. Now with the upgrade around 8-10 can deal with a large quantity of Mutas (which was not possible previously due to the reasons I explained above) as long as you catch them leaving their base and not when they are already in your base.
If you don't know how to beat ultras... let me show you a video.
Skip to ten minutes. If you can't figure out how to beat ultras.
And thats on open ground... if its a choke... LOL. Just a few marines stop the ultra (3 hits from an ultra to kill one..... ) while tanks and marauders smash them.
Ghost nerf is huge and unnecessary. Snipe now works ('well') against HT, DT, ghost? They were far from overpowered, 6 casts makes snipe good vs BL. 11 casts for ultras makes them at best a soft counter.
I love the phoenix buff. Just a upgrade at the fleet beacon is genious, muta's will still be awesome if you surprise toss with them but the game where toss simply can't come back while zerg keeps massing air on maps like tal darim will be fixed a bit. Excellent change.
Ghost nerf seems a bit too hard. They were too good against broodlords and maybe ultralisks but now snipe is too weak I think. It becomes a niche spell against spellcasters and is completely useless against zealots and probably even ultra's and maybe broodlords. I would have loved to have seen a raven buff with this so we can get to see some seeker missile action, it's the coolest spell in the game and should really get a slight buff.
MULE change is good obviously, the idea of high yield can be fun but needed a few changes to make it fair.
Wow note that very few people are complaining the mule upgrade compared to the snipe upgrade. Which some people earlier mentioned also means that ghost has 2 anti caster spells. It should be better against zealots, as a counter to keep them at distance. Not having 2 spells against HT's. :S I do agree on how Snipe could see to good, but that nerf seem to be to extreme. have seen many times on pro-streams where zerg did a good harrass on a terran so he could not mass ghost as he pleased.
I would not be surprised to hear Zerg players complain about that marauders a T1 unit is the counter to Zergs T3 unit again, as before Ghost became standard.
But the other changes seems to be a good solution.
On February 11 2012 05:38 ImHuko wrote: The phoenix could infinitely kite mutalisks with PERFECT micro, with range buff, you don't even need nearly close to perfect micro to do that now. Instead of giving Protoss an option vs mutalisks, they remove the mutalisk option all-together.
I disagree, now they've given protoss a way to regain map control vs mutas. Z then has the ability to unburrow an infestor and hit a good FG and wipe out all the phoenix. Or have corruptors around as well, though with the 6 range that will be less effective as well.
I really hope this pushes more P to try adding stargate play as a whole vs zerg past the early game VR pressures.
the pheonix change is NOT to help against early game mutas
the pheonix change is for lategame when the zerg has 50 mutas and the toss tries to move out to kill the zergs main but 50 mutas come in and obliterate his base then run way before the toss can engage them. slowly the toss base gets whithered away and is forced into a baserace
but now a 200food army no longer needs to baserace against a lategame muta zerg
with the pheonix change toss can attack the zergs main and leave 7 phoenix behind to deal with the mutas. when the 50 mutas come the protoss slowly a-moves his main army to destroy the zergs main and expansions while micro'ing the 7 pheonix. with 6range, 7pheonix 2shot mutas and within a 80 seconds or so 7 pheonix can kill all the mutas before the mutas kill much of the tosses main, while the zerg loses 4 bases to the protoss main army and the zerg is finished at that point
EPT
), here's a reply I was about to post in that thread.
