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On January 31 2012 07:59 s4life wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 07:47 Itsmedudeman wrote:On January 31 2012 07:43 s4life wrote:On January 31 2012 07:22 Itsmedudeman wrote:On January 31 2012 07:18 s4life wrote:On January 31 2012 07:16 Itsmedudeman wrote:On January 31 2012 07:15 s4life wrote:On January 31 2012 07:07 Itsmedudeman wrote:On January 31 2012 06:19 s4life wrote:On January 31 2012 06:03 nicknup wrote:
Tennis players forfeit games in tournaments they have commited to participate due to injuries and beeing tired and no one bash then. Sure, things out of control are pretty reasonable excuses not to play -- like a pulled muscle f.e. -- but come on, Stephano accepted the invitation and knew perfectly well what he was getting into, he should have planned for it.. on top of that made wait for him an hour or so.. that's just him being completely unprofessional. No, you can forfeit if you're exhausted and can't continue. Same thing as stephano. Of course you can, but in that case you absolutely pay a price for it. A professional tennis player getting exhausted and forfeiting because of it is a huge deal, it means the player is pretty irresponsible with his training, preparation and on top of that show lack of temperance. He won't get any invites anytime soon. No, actually, no one bitches about it. They point out that they have to work at their conditioning, but no one is gonna walk up to them and tell them they're unprofessional and should be punished. Actually, yes, tired players who quit because of it absolutely lose the respect of their peers, fans and organizers.. that's how it works in any sport. Djokovic retired from a major a few years back due to exhaustion. I don't ever remember a single article or thread written about how he's unprofessional and that he should be punished. Oh Nole got a lot of bad press because of it, even until now he's not really a popular player. Still, forfeiting a semifinal because of heat exhaustion is in no way comparable to the situation at hand. First, he TRIED to play but that day temperature was in the 140s F around the courts. Second, he apparently has documented breathing problems. Third, he was not the only player to forfeit because of heat exhaustion, in fact because it was such a recurrent issue the AO organizers decided to enclose the courts and install air conditioning. The hell...? K, let's stop with the tennis analogies because you don't follow tennis or at least currently. No one holds anything against djokovic for that match, especially considering how now he's basically known for his endurance and heart. Also, if someone is not fit to play, WHO ARE YOU to tell them they're fit to play? People have different standards, and the guy standing 30 yards away from djokovic on the other side did not have any problems under the same conditions. WTF? I probably have forgotten more about tennis that you'll ever know. Nole isn't really a popular player right now and one of the reasons is that, back then he was constantly forfeiting tournaments -- he had other issues like his annoying family and his long serves too -- and he wasn't really known for having temperance. He definitely is the best conditioned player right now though. Still, my main issue with your analogy is that, Djokovic at least TRIED to play and didn't just tried to bully his way through with the organizers... big difference.
No, that's not the reason why he's "unpopular". He is popular, just not as much as federer and nadal who had been at the top and dominating for 5+ years. Why would people hold something against him when he's proven them wrong currently? Please find me someone who isn't a fan because of his retirement from that major. Your logic here makes no sense. Djokovic tried until he was tired. Stephano tried until he was tired. He was playing this tournament all in one day, and he made it through the semis when it ended at 2 am. How exactly did he not try?
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On January 31 2012 06:45 Hot_Bid wrote:
I don't understand how people can say its hypocrisy that there is no thread about Tyler when if it was anyone else who forfeits first round (literally anyone, doesn't have to be Liquid) we wouldn't make a thread about it.
To summarize:
1. Anyone forfeiting first round, no thread, not newsworthy
2. One of the best foreigners forfeiting invitational right before finals, yes thread
#1 doesn't matter if it's Liquid, there wouldn't be a thread about Destiny or Flo or Incontrol or anyone else forfeiting first round, this should be obvious to anyone. There is no special treatment for Tyler.
completly agree,tylers situation is not worthy of a thread.a simple explanation will do.
edit:read the rest of the thread after,doesnt change the fact that stephano is getting stoned for having a good excuse(yes being tired is a good excuse)while tyler didnt give any.
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On January 31 2012 07:45 raiZo wrote:
i cant believe this thread really. blaming stephano for this? blame the caster for blaming and flaming stephano. ONOG can just fix the match to another day, just simple. stephano is getting 4th? thats just a joke, catz the worst player in this planet is getting 3rd and illusion 2nd? oh wow. i´m so pissed right now.
if a player like stephano, who lives in EU have to play 3 AM...ah well nvm. i´m in rage.
stephano is a awesome guy, fail is this community and ONOG, oh i forgot this fail caster.
sorry for my bad english, hope you understand the most of it.
Yeah bro, let's postpone an event essentially sponsored and supported by barcrafts by making everyone come back to the bar the next day on a Monday for one match, pretty reasonable.
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On January 31 2012 08:03 dAPhREAk wrote:
this thread lost interest a long time ago. only zairair's posts keeps me reading. lol. that guy, most successful troll i have seen in awhile, or just incredibly stupid.... havent decided yet.
so true, his concern is touching
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On January 31 2012 08:01 hippotato wrote:
Think how you would react if this was Boxer/MMA/MVP/HuK/NesTea/WhiteRa/etc. Everyone would have moved on by now. Now go back to thinking if this was Stephano/Destiny/INcontrol/Moletrap.
Bias
If any of those players did this there would be an equal or bigger shitstorm. Can you imagine what the koreans would say if MMA forfeited the finals at IEM Kiev because he was tired?
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On January 31 2012 07:59 Zairair wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 07:58 Linwelin wrote:On January 31 2012 07:56 Zairair wrote:On January 31 2012 07:54 getSome[703] wrote:On January 31 2012 07:50 Zairair wrote:On January 31 2012 07:49 getSome[703] wrote:On January 31 2012 07:41 Zairair wrote:On January 31 2012 07:37 Legio wrote:On January 31 2012 07:29 Zairair wrote:On January 31 2012 07:27 Tobberoth wrote:
[quote]
Because he didn't earn anything as part of the Republican nomination?
Your analogy is horrible. So why are you guys such bad manner to Stephano? You guys are asking him to be burned at the stake and be labeled as unprofessional for his whole career? Is that justified? Stephano is the very definition of unprofessional in Esports. He lied to his team and to Col to get a raise from both teams. He isn't investing in Starcraft, instead he is going to quit playing this year to go back to school. He forfeits a finals despite the organizers hard work of putting the event together. Tell me now, is there anyone on the scene that is less professional than this? It's would have been more unprofessional to lose the match and die of exhaustion at his keyboard. Is that what you want? Or would you rather him not play in one of his tournaments? Or would you rather him try in both tournaments to get as high as you can!!! Last option please! People are now suggesting that stephano was on the brink of dying from exhaustion from playing starcraft past his bedtime. rofl How long do you think the human body can sustain itself without sleep? I'll tell you if you're right. For longer than 24 hours. Which is much more than stephano would have been awake for assuming he had woken up at a reasonable time. And if he woke up at 1 in the morning the day before two tournaments that would likely go well into the night, it's his fault. Am I right? Yea you're right. But he death the likelihood of death increases as a function of sleep deprivation. So he still could have died or passed out. Stop embarrassing yourself. Do you really think Stephano would have died if he didn't forfeit? How much do you practice? How much does he practice? I really think that he could've. Some people take gaming to the extreme. Not embarassing anyone.
I've stayed up five days straight working on finals, and I was fine. He wouldn't have died, it's all on him to schedule his time effectively. If he didn't give himself enough time to sleep the day before, that's his fault. He doesn't have any right to bail on a commitment because he was tired from other tournaments than I had the right to bail on one of my finals because I was tired from working on another final.
ONOG made the right choice I think. If his story was really that he bailed on them because he was tired, he deserves repercussion for trying to bully them to reschedule an event he commuted to.
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On January 31 2012 08:01 Zairair wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 08:01 Linwelin wrote:On January 31 2012 07:59 Zairair wrote:On January 31 2012 07:58 Linwelin wrote:On January 31 2012 07:56 Zairair wrote:On January 31 2012 07:54 getSome[703] wrote:On January 31 2012 07:50 Zairair wrote:On January 31 2012 07:49 getSome[703] wrote:On January 31 2012 07:41 Zairair wrote:On January 31 2012 07:37 Legio wrote:
[quote]
Stephano is the very definition of unprofessional in Esports. He lied to his team and to Col to get a raise from both teams. He isn't investing in Starcraft, instead he is going to quit playing this year to go back to school. He forfeits a finals despite the organizers hard work of putting the event together. Tell me now, is there anyone on the scene that is less professional than this? It's would have been more unprofessional to lose the match and die of exhaustion at his keyboard. Is that what you want? Or would you rather him not play in one of his tournaments? Or would you rather him try in both tournaments to get as high as you can!!! Last option please! People are now suggesting that stephano was on the brink of dying from exhaustion from playing starcraft past his bedtime. rofl How long do you think the human body can sustain itself without sleep? I'll tell you if you're right. For longer than 24 hours. Which is much more than stephano would have been awake for assuming he had woken up at a reasonable time. And if he woke up at 1 in the morning the day before two tournaments that would likely go well into the night, it's his fault. Am I right? Yea you're right. But he death the likelihood of death increases as a function of sleep deprivation. So he still could have died or passed out. Stop embarrassing yourself. Do you really think Stephano would have died if he didn't forfeit? How much do you practice? How much does he practice? I really think that he could've. Some people take gaming to the extreme. Are you serious... Try staying up for 24 hours once playing video games. I promise you won't die On January 31 2012 07:59 OzVelas wrote:
Where is the news about LiquidTyler who did the same thing as stephano ? Has already been addressed by Hot_Bid I'm very serious, people stayed up for 5 days playing games before. It gets on the news often for mmos.
Stephano is a pro gamer. Are you seriously suggesting that you think he might have stayed up for multiple days straight before those tournaments? Because even if he did, that just means that he's really stupid and irresponsible, which I'm pretty sure is the consensus of all the detractors.
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On January 31 2012 08:01 Zairair wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 08:01 Linwelin wrote:On January 31 2012 07:59 Zairair wrote:On January 31 2012 07:58 Linwelin wrote:On January 31 2012 07:56 Zairair wrote:On January 31 2012 07:54 getSome[703] wrote:On January 31 2012 07:50 Zairair wrote:On January 31 2012 07:49 getSome[703] wrote:On January 31 2012 07:41 Zairair wrote:On January 31 2012 07:37 Legio wrote:
[quote]
Stephano is the very definition of unprofessional in Esports. He lied to his team and to Col to get a raise from both teams. He isn't investing in Starcraft, instead he is going to quit playing this year to go back to school. He forfeits a finals despite the organizers hard work of putting the event together. Tell me now, is there anyone on the scene that is less professional than this? It's would have been more unprofessional to lose the match and die of exhaustion at his keyboard. Is that what you want? Or would you rather him not play in one of his tournaments? Or would you rather him try in both tournaments to get as high as you can!!! Last option please! People are now suggesting that stephano was on the brink of dying from exhaustion from playing starcraft past his bedtime. rofl How long do you think the human body can sustain itself without sleep? I'll tell you if you're right. For longer than 24 hours. Which is much more than stephano would have been awake for assuming he had woken up at a reasonable time. And if he woke up at 1 in the morning the day before two tournaments that would likely go well into the night, it's his fault. Am I right? Yea you're right. But he death the likelihood of death increases as a function of sleep deprivation. So he still could have died or passed out. Stop embarrassing yourself. Do you really think Stephano would have died if he didn't forfeit? How much do you practice? How much does he practice? I really think that he could've. Some people take gaming to the extreme. Are you serious... Try staying up for 24 hours once playing video games. I promise you won't die On January 31 2012 07:59 OzVelas wrote:
Where is the news about LiquidTyler who did the same thing as stephano ? Has already been addressed by Hot_Bid I'm very serious, people stayed up for 5 days playing games before. It gets on the news often for mmos.
Clearly Stephano didnt do that or he wouldnt have been able to play good enough to get in the final anyway. He wasnt in any risk of anything whatsoever. Your theory is just ridiculous.
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it would have been much simpler for stephano to say that he has become sick so he is unable to play the finals, and apologize to the tournament organisers and to the fans.
forfeits because of condition issues are so common in normal sports... come on e-sport guys be reasonable
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On January 31 2012 08:04 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 08:01 hippotato wrote:
Think how you would react if this was Boxer/MMA/MVP/HuK/NesTea/WhiteRa/etc. Everyone would have moved on by now. Now go back to thinking if this was Stephano/Destiny/INcontrol/Moletrap.
Bias If any of those players did this there would be an equal or bigger shitstorm. Can you imagine what the koreans would say if MMA forfeited the finals at IEM Kiev because he was tired?
SlayerS would probably ban him from competing in tournaments for a year
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On January 31 2012 08:05 Witten wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 08:01 Zairair wrote:On January 31 2012 08:01 Linwelin wrote:On January 31 2012 07:59 Zairair wrote:On January 31 2012 07:58 Linwelin wrote:On January 31 2012 07:56 Zairair wrote:On January 31 2012 07:54 getSome[703] wrote:On January 31 2012 07:50 Zairair wrote:On January 31 2012 07:49 getSome[703] wrote:On January 31 2012 07:41 Zairair wrote:
[quote]
It's would have been more unprofessional to lose the match and die of exhaustion at his keyboard. Is that what you want? Or would you rather him not play in one of his tournaments? Or would you rather him try in both tournaments to get as high as you can!!! Last option please! People are now suggesting that stephano was on the brink of dying from exhaustion from playing starcraft past his bedtime. rofl How long do you think the human body can sustain itself without sleep? I'll tell you if you're right. For longer than 24 hours. Which is much more than stephano would have been awake for assuming he had woken up at a reasonable time. And if he woke up at 1 in the morning the day before two tournaments that would likely go well into the night, it's his fault. Am I right? Yea you're right. But he death the likelihood of death increases as a function of sleep deprivation. So he still could have died or passed out. Stop embarrassing yourself. Do you really think Stephano would have died if he didn't forfeit? How much do you practice? How much does he practice? I really think that he could've. Some people take gaming to the extreme. Are you serious... Try staying up for 24 hours once playing video games. I promise you won't die On January 31 2012 07:59 OzVelas wrote:
Where is the news about LiquidTyler who did the same thing as stephano ? Has already been addressed by Hot_Bid I'm very serious, people stayed up for 5 days playing games before. It gets on the news often for mmos. Stephano is a pro gamer. Are you seriously suggesting that you think he might have stayed up for multiple days straight before those tournaments? Because even if he did, that just means that he's really stupid and irresponsible, which I'm pretty sure is the consensus of all the detractors.
Boxer threw a tournament early in his career for the same reason. It was in his biography. Good stuff. Winning is good.
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On January 31 2012 08:01 Zairair wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 08:01 Linwelin wrote:On January 31 2012 07:59 Zairair wrote:On January 31 2012 07:58 Linwelin wrote:On January 31 2012 07:56 Zairair wrote:On January 31 2012 07:54 getSome[703] wrote:On January 31 2012 07:50 Zairair wrote:On January 31 2012 07:49 getSome[703] wrote:On January 31 2012 07:41 Zairair wrote:On January 31 2012 07:37 Legio wrote:
[quote]
Stephano is the very definition of unprofessional in Esports. He lied to his team and to Col to get a raise from both teams. He isn't investing in Starcraft, instead he is going to quit playing this year to go back to school. He forfeits a finals despite the organizers hard work of putting the event together. Tell me now, is there anyone on the scene that is less professional than this? It's would have been more unprofessional to lose the match and die of exhaustion at his keyboard. Is that what you want? Or would you rather him not play in one of his tournaments? Or would you rather him try in both tournaments to get as high as you can!!! Last option please! People are now suggesting that stephano was on the brink of dying from exhaustion from playing starcraft past his bedtime. rofl How long do you think the human body can sustain itself without sleep? I'll tell you if you're right. For longer than 24 hours. Which is much more than stephano would have been awake for assuming he had woken up at a reasonable time. And if he woke up at 1 in the morning the day before two tournaments that would likely go well into the night, it's his fault. Am I right? Yea you're right. But he death the likelihood of death increases as a function of sleep deprivation. So he still could have died or passed out. Stop embarrassing yourself. Do you really think Stephano would have died if he didn't forfeit? How much do you practice? How much does he practice? I really think that he could've. Some people take gaming to the extreme. Are you serious... Try staying up for 24 hours once playing video games. I promise you won't die On January 31 2012 07:59 OzVelas wrote:
Where is the news about LiquidTyler who did the same thing as stephano ? Has already been addressed by Hot_Bid I'm very serious, people stayed up for 5 days playing games before. It gets on the news often for mmos.
Yes I know that. Are you saying that Stephano was awake for many days>
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I feel ONOG made the right move here. They already changed scheduled times for Stephano and then he says it's too late, I feel this deserves punishment (I have no problem with Stephano, I like the guy, I just think he made a bad choice given the situation). If you think you have a chance where you cannot play a match in a particular tourney why sign up? It makes for a crap event for the fans.
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Forfeits exist in order to discourage behavior. You cannot and will not ever be able to force someone not to forfeit. Not letting a person forfeit would be like not letting you log out of a game of sc2 until your opponent destroyed all your buildings.
If he is willing to accept the consequences of his actions, let it be. Any discussion thereof can only be opinion-based as trying to decide objectively what he should have done or had the right to do is an impossible discussion.
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On January 31 2012 07:45 raiZo wrote:
i cant believe this thread really. blaming stephano for this? blame the caster for blaming and flaming stephano. ONOG can just fix the match to another day, just simple. stephano is getting 4th? thats just a joke, catz the worst player in this planet is getting 3rd and illusion 2nd? oh wow. i´m so pissed right now.
if a player like stephano, who lives in EU have to play 3 AM...ah well nvm. i´m in rage.
stephano is a awesome guy, fail is this community and ONOG, oh i forgot this fail caster.
sorry for my bad english, hope you understand the most of it.
Im sorry for you because you dont understand anything what happened.
a. stephano decides to participate in an NA tournament by and for NA barcrafters. This tourny was for NA barcrafters. You know that if you play ina a tourny for NA barcrafters that you wont play at normal EU times. You know that you cant delay the freaking final for 1 day if its only for the live audience which made this tournament possible.
b. he was playing at 2 tounraments that day.
c. he came late for 45 minutes
d. he delayed the tournament even after coming late
e. after delaying the tournament twice he thought hit was too late and he wanted to pressure the admins by saying he will forfeit or play another day when the NA barcrafters wont be able to watch at a barcraft cause they are normal ppl that live, work and sleep. no finals would have been a huege upset for all the ppl who donated/worked for this etc
f. he made the admins change the rules several times by saying he wouldnt play anymore if they wouldnt do everything he wanted them to do
so he uses his power (ppl were only watching because of him) to pressure the admins several times, delayed the tournament for a long time and later said it was too late for him. Any tournament organizer would have been pissed sooo freaking much. He is literally abusing his VIP status for pressuring tourament admins and p*ssing on them even though they do as his majesty pleases. I dont get how you cant be mad at such behaviour.
Even though if you dont include other incidents of stephanos history its just not ok for a player to do so. even for a eu player when its 3 AM.
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On January 31 2012 08:03 dAPhREAk wrote:
this thread lost interest a long time ago. only zairair's posts keeps me reading. lol. that guy, most successful troll i have seen in awhile, or just incredibly stupid.... havent decided yet.
i guess he's 10 year old kid who need go to bed early
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On January 31 2012 07:41 Gheed wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 07:39 ES.Genie wrote:
Why is this even a big deal? Happend so often in the past and nobody cared. People are funneling their need to complain into some kind of righteous anger because it was a community sponsored event. If it was online cup #387 nobody would care.
I guess you are right. But well, the community needs drama and if there is none, they just create one.
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On January 31 2012 08:05 GP wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 07:59 Zairair wrote:On January 31 2012 07:58 Linwelin wrote:On January 31 2012 07:56 Zairair wrote:On January 31 2012 07:54 getSome[703] wrote:On January 31 2012 07:50 Zairair wrote:On January 31 2012 07:49 getSome[703] wrote:On January 31 2012 07:41 Zairair wrote:On January 31 2012 07:37 Legio wrote:On January 31 2012 07:29 Zairair wrote:
[quote]
So why are you guys such bad manner to Stephano? You guys are asking him to be burned at the stake and be labeled as unprofessional for his whole career? Is that justified? Stephano is the very definition of unprofessional in Esports. He lied to his team and to Col to get a raise from both teams. He isn't investing in Starcraft, instead he is going to quit playing this year to go back to school. He forfeits a finals despite the organizers hard work of putting the event together. Tell me now, is there anyone on the scene that is less professional than this? It's would have been more unprofessional to lose the match and die of exhaustion at his keyboard. Is that what you want? Or would you rather him not play in one of his tournaments? Or would you rather him try in both tournaments to get as high as you can!!! Last option please! People are now suggesting that stephano was on the brink of dying from exhaustion from playing starcraft past his bedtime. rofl How long do you think the human body can sustain itself without sleep? I'll tell you if you're right. For longer than 24 hours. Which is much more than stephano would have been awake for assuming he had woken up at a reasonable time. And if he woke up at 1 in the morning the day before two tournaments that would likely go well into the night, it's his fault. Am I right? Yea you're right. But he death the likelihood of death increases as a function of sleep deprivation. So he still could have died or passed out. Stop embarrassing yourself. Do you really think Stephano would have died if he didn't forfeit? How much do you practice? How much does he practice? I really think that he could've. Some people take gaming to the extreme. Not embarassing anyone. I've stayed up five days straight working on finals, and I was fine. He wouldn't have died, it's all on him to schedule his time effectively. If he didn't give himself enough time to sleep the day before, that's his fault. He doesn't have any right to bail on a commitment because he was tired from other tournaments than I had the right to bail on one of my finals because I was tired from working on another final.
It seems a lot of people seriously cannot understand from another person's perspective. A LOT OF PEOPLE HERE would not be able to stay up 5 days straight and be fine. Just because you can doesn't mean you can hold others to the same standards and tell them they should be okay.
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On January 31 2012 08:02 Bagration wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 07:59 Zairair wrote:On January 31 2012 07:58 Linwelin wrote:On January 31 2012 07:56 Zairair wrote:On January 31 2012 07:54 getSome[703] wrote:On January 31 2012 07:50 Zairair wrote:On January 31 2012 07:49 getSome[703] wrote:On January 31 2012 07:41 Zairair wrote:On January 31 2012 07:37 Legio wrote:On January 31 2012 07:29 Zairair wrote:
[quote]
So why are you guys such bad manner to Stephano? You guys are asking him to be burned at the stake and be labeled as unprofessional for his whole career? Is that justified? Stephano is the very definition of unprofessional in Esports. He lied to his team and to Col to get a raise from both teams. He isn't investing in Starcraft, instead he is going to quit playing this year to go back to school. He forfeits a finals despite the organizers hard work of putting the event together. Tell me now, is there anyone on the scene that is less professional than this? It's would have been more unprofessional to lose the match and die of exhaustion at his keyboard. Is that what you want? Or would you rather him not play in one of his tournaments? Or would you rather him try in both tournaments to get as high as you can!!! Last option please! People are now suggesting that stephano was on the brink of dying from exhaustion from playing starcraft past his bedtime. rofl How long do you think the human body can sustain itself without sleep? I'll tell you if you're right. For longer than 24 hours. Which is much more than stephano would have been awake for assuming he had woken up at a reasonable time. And if he woke up at 1 in the morning the day before two tournaments that would likely go well into the night, it's his fault. Am I right? Yea you're right. But he death the likelihood of death increases as a function of sleep deprivation. So he still could have died or passed out. Stop embarrassing yourself. Do you really think Stephano would have died if he didn't forfeit? How much do you practice? How much does he practice? I really think that he could've. Some people take gaming to the extreme. Not embarassing anyone. Stephano does not practice that much. It was a long day for him, but I am pretty sure he was not at risk of dying. Try a different argument please.
Same day. Twitter from naniwa. "Played 65 ladder games in a row." LIKE A BOSS.
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On January 31 2012 07:49 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 07:47 zomgE wrote:
I love when people are talking about legitimizing esports and in the same breath going "lol he was tierd from playing a vidiogame?? he doesn't know what true tired is!". Hahha. (Saw it alot in the LR or some other thread)
And so much drama when the player in question doesn't even give too much of a shit. I'd say it's the exact opposite. If ESPORTs is supposed to be a legit sport, athletes of it are supposed to be professional, it's a job to them. You don't go home from work because you're tired, why should you quit a tournament because of it?
You also are supposed to treat those athletes with due respect... making them work for 12 hours straight and getting angry when they're tired is dumb. It goes both ways.
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EPT
