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ampson
United States2355 Posts
On January 24 2012 10:58 Gak2 wrote: Welp, the people have spoken. Just waiting on you Blizzard. The internet theorycrafters and BW nostalgics have said they want it hardened. I guarantee you that if you asked any bronze-diamond leaguer (98% of the player base) if they wanted to have to tell every worker made to mine the answer would be a resounding no. | ||
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architecture
United States643 Posts
Scouting is only one component. Many game decisions are necessarily made before it is possible to react to what the opponent is doing. A1------A2-------A3 -----B1------B2-------- For instance, A must make decision A1 before B makes B1. Similarly, B1 needs to be made before A2, without knowing the result of A2. The point is that you will always be making many reads AFTER the fact. There is nothing wrong with that if players can adapt and not die. Unfortunately, many of these are fatal in SC2, either in the short term or long term. The correct way to solve this is not to give more scouting, because scouting doesn't give you a crystal ball into the future. The correct way is to make it so that decisions aren't as fatal (caused by ridiculous macro mechanics). Edit: oops repost. | ||
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R0YAL
United States1768 Posts
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JDub
United States976 Posts
On January 24 2012 10:49 TheTurk wrote: I just don't understand this sentiment at all. Show me a SINGLE game where anyone has played anywhere close to perfectly, please. Even the best of the best in GSL are still playing far below the theoretical skill cap, even as they are rapidly improving month to month. Just because BW made it extremely difficult just to macro at a mediocre level and move your army around does not mean that SC2 is easy or that SC2 has a low skill cap. C'mon people!It doesn't have to be unplayable. Just let there exist a skill cap that isn't easily conquered. | ||
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Belisarius
Australia6233 Posts
On January 23 2012 20:54 firehand101 wrote: Do We Want The Game Harder? On January 23 2012 20:54 firehand101 wrote: It is not really a discussion on whether or not it should be harder, that is for another thread Really? I feel like it should be pretty apparent from real-world sports that making something harder does not automatically lose you viewers. Football isn't easy. That said, I don't think SC2 needs to be made articifically more difficult by bringing back limited control groups or whatever. | ||
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HaruHaru
United States988 Posts
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Tortious_Tortoise
United States944 Posts
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Zooper31
United States5713 Posts
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AxelTVx
Canada916 Posts
But if you want to see only the best players win (Best Koreans) then the game has to be harder. It's what you want, enlarge e-sports or better quality games. | ||
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firehand101
Australia3152 Posts
On January 24 2012 11:35 AxelTVx wrote: if you want the game to grow in the western world, then No. But if you want to see only the best players win (Best Koreans) then the game has to be harder. It's what you want, enlarge e-sports or better quality games. Exactly! | ||
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yeastiality
Canada374 Posts
The game is already getting 'harder' as we speak, because people are learning it, perfecting strategies and then casting them aside as new ones are found. Whether things need to be changed at the design level isn't clear, but it can't hurt. They won't change the fundamentals like taking bases, having more supply, winning fights efficiently and that sort of thing. | ||
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da_head
Canada3350 Posts
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Luppy1
Singapore177 Posts
On January 24 2012 11:35 AxelTVx wrote: if you want the game to grow in the western world, then No. But if you want to see only the best players win (Best Koreans) then the game has to be harder. It's what you want, enlarge e-sports or better quality games. Even in the game's current state, SC2 is losing players across all regions except in Korea. So, I don't think what you said is true at all. Keeping the game easy does nothing besides catering to casuals who wouldn't be feel attached to the game and will leave soon enough. | ||
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iokke
United States1179 Posts
Bronze/silver, for example, has 0 chance vs plat/diamond etc, not even talking masters and up. In noob friendly games you have a shot at killing people with much more experience than you, at least. Here - no way. on topic though, i think it should become harder (at least on higher lvls) with added variety of strategies, more impact of unit control etc (not by removing mbs and other nonsense). how about best of both worlds? They should make it even more noob friendly at lower levels to get people to stick around, but harder at higher levels.. idk how though:D | ||
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Kirazaki
United Kingdom42 Posts
On the other hand though I believe BW wasn't as popular in the west simply due to the fact that esports as a whole was a lot smaller and the internet didn't really hit big for a few years after release. As a whole there were many social and technical factors which didn't allow for it to be as big as it could have been. | ||
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Luppy1
Singapore177 Posts
On January 24 2012 11:47 iokke wrote: blows my mind when people say sc2 is nub friendly. Easier than sc:bw - sure. But you must be delusional to argue that sc2 is noob friendly, its much harder to pick up than most of the games out of there, Bronze/silver, for example, has 0 chance vs plat/diamond etc, not even talking masters and up. In noob friendly games you have a shot at killing people with much more experience than you, at least. Here - no way. Surely the bronze/silver league players have no chance against those from the higher leagues. But, that's really an extreme example. You're talking about players who just picked up the game / are playing RTS games for the first time. Even when you watch pro players stream, they still lose quite frequently to random nobodies. Even dragon lost to a diamond player on SEA server the other day, while he's playing on a friend's account. That's how volatile this game is. | ||
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iokke
United States1179 Posts
On January 24 2012 11:57 Luppy1 wrote: Surely the bronze/silver league players have no chance against those from the higher leagues. But, that's really an extreme example. You're talking about players who just picked up the game / are playing RTS games for the first time. Even when you watch pro players stream, they still lose quite frequently to random nobodies. Even dragon lost to a diamond player on SEA server the other day, while he's playing on a friend's account. That's how volatile this game is. idk man I've been diamond since forever (played since beta), and ran into desrow during one of the tourneys. I might as well have been bronze.. When my mmr jumps a bit and i start playing better masters players i can also see a big difference and very rarely beat them The example is not that extreme, we're talking noob friendly so I'm picking leagues with newer players. Pro's may lose to randoms, but the people they play are hardly newbies, and besides don't forget pros do a lot of testing/messing around on ladder. In tournament results such upsets are much more rare and we often get excited about them | ||
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plogamer
Canada3132 Posts
The game needs to be linear. From the lowest to the highest of skill levels, the game should be entertaining, engaging and challenging. If you see children playing soccer, would you be thinking, "The game needs to be harder"? | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On January 24 2012 11:49 Kirazaki wrote: The game is hard enough as it is. There are areas ALL players can improve on and a lot of the mechanics of what make SC2 arguably easier than BW are things that should stay in the game and were missing from BW due to the limitations back when it was made. It is a Real-time Strategy game, it should mostly come down to strategy if you ask me and I feel SC2 has helped do that without crippling what made Starcraft awesome. On the other hand though I believe BW wasn't as popular in the west simply due to the fact that esports as a whole was a lot smaller and the internet didn't really hit big for a few years after release. As a whole there were many social and technical factors which didn't allow for it to be as big as it could have been. Trust me the reason why Brood wasn't popular in the west is definitely not because of the internet phenomenon. It is because people have NEVER thought about broadcasting the game as a form of entertainment on television. The Koreans did it through a channel named Tooniverse, a channel for cartoons. The players weren't even playing in booth but on a mere Ping Pong table set up by the channel's executive. By no means it was meant for serious play. But then later on, the event got a lot of positive praises from the public, people thought it was a enjoyment spectating "WarCraft in space". Subsequently, the Emperor of Terran marched its army into scene. The fangirls loved that charisma of this Boxer character, fangirls squealed at his entrance. This have attracted many audience into watching the game, the game became more and more popular as sponsors rolled in. Plus the most important piece of the history is the rise of PC Bangs in Korea at the time of the game(Brood War)'s release, therefore having the youth of Korea obsessing over SC1. Everything was perfect as literally the stars aligned together. Second reason is the one you've mentioned on the social issues. See when the like of BoxeR, YellOw, NaDa, Giyom and etc. bursted out, they were treated like rockstars by the fans. In the Western world, you would only get insulted for gaming for the lack of life which still, to a lesser extent exist today. | ||
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Witten
United States2094 Posts
On January 23 2012 21:11 Blazinghand wrote: The hardness of the game is all that matters to me. Yes, oh, yes.... I want this game to be hard. All I want to be able to feel its hardness. I wish to sense it as I grasp my mouse and feel its sinewy cord and its coarse texture pads. I need to know it's hard as I gently brush my fingertips across my slick black keyboard. I yearn to press against the hardness of the high skill ceiling as I ladder. I love to feel it pushing me down. I need to feel the hardness inside me as I become hard like the game, as it hardens me and makes me a better gamer. I want to feel the hardness pound away at me and make me gosu. I like it hard. Victory post. | ||
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