EPTDo We Want the Game Harder? - Page 13
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sickoota
Canada918 Posts
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VoO
Germany278 Posts
I will quote Day9 (paraphrased): The only thing I miss is the physicality of the units [...] The ceiling what you can do more seems to be flattened. All the stuff you could do with mutalisks seem gone. http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-s-musings-game-design-baseballs-vs-frisbees-5837982 I want that every race is stronger influenced by player skill. I want mutalisks ten times more effective if the player has the skill. I want to be crushed by opponents cause they own me with their skill, not by luck, abuse or gimmicky strategies. I was an avid player of Protoss in BW and of course started in Star2 with Protoss. I quit. It is disgusting. Thir race is disgusting. You can literally get into Master with 50 APM and 20 minute turtle. This race doesn't require any skill if you choose this strategy. I'm so sad, cause I love Protoss, I really wanted to play Protoss, but it is just stupid. On the other hand it is also disgusting that Terran a-click all-ins are so strong or Zerg macro is at some point completely overpowering in a ladder environment. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On January 24 2012 02:55 sickoota wrote: When a player who hasn't even played for a year (bling) can beat freakin MVP, and indeed MVP has to resort to 1/1/1 to beat him because honestly early game unit micro has a higher skillcap than lategame 1a vs 1a in TvP there is something WRONG Or that's the way such sports work. Basel beat Manchester United in soccer and Greece even won the European Championsship in 2004... | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On January 24 2012 02:55 sickoota wrote: When a player who hasn't even played for a year (bling) can beat freakin MVP, and indeed MVP has to resort to 1/1/1 to beat him because honestly early game unit micro has a higher skillcap than lategame 1a vs 1a in TvP there is something WRONG Yeah cause basing the comparison of a 2 year old game to a 10 year old game upon one match, out of tens of thousands, definitely constitutes legitimate evidence. edit: and you treat late game control like no one is ever going to get better at it in 8 years. this post, lol | ||
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Sergio1992
Italy522 Posts
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Sandtrout
243 Posts
I'm by far more interested in strategic decisions and their execution than raw macro. Sure, it's incredibly impressive how much BW pros can do at once without stuff like automining, unlimited unit selection etc. But it doesn't make the game itself more interesting to watch. The skill ceiling in Starcraft 2 is far from being hit and until it is, I don't think we can really decide if the game is too easy in a way that would affect better players to lose to worse players. As a player: I'm a total noob and came into Starcraft 2 without any rts experience and not much gaming experience at all. It can already be frustrating and I don't think I would have stayed with this game if it was as hard as BW. The changes mainly cater to new and newbie players, which isn't a bad thing. Starcraft shouldn't just be there for pros to master but also for players like me to enjoy. | ||
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Apolo
Portugal1259 Posts
BW got 12 units on each group? Let's make it without group units. You have to micro each individually. Probes keep mining after you order them to? That's too easy. Let's have a BW where you have to click on probes to bring back resources to nexus and go to mine again. Now answer: That's a hell of a lot harder right? But how much more interesting is it to watch and play? The point is for the game to be hard in interesting places to watch and play. | ||
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shadymmj
1906 Posts
On January 24 2012 02:55 shiroiusagi wrote: People need to stop thinking BW is harder than SC2. SC2 is an IMPROVEMENT of BW. Same as how WC3 was an IMPROVEMENT of WC2. Groups are not mean to just clump up all armies into one hotkey and A-1. Players need to separate armies themselves and micro armies for survival. The game has improved mechanics to allow you to do more in-between.. Having to seperate armies yourself is adding another "artificial" layer of mechanics into the game, especially when said armies seem to clump up at virtually any given chance. This IMO is not much different from the argument made against BW. BW has 3 types of APM dumps: Macro, micro and multitasking. Multitasking really means using APM to monitor the progress of many things at once by moving the screen. It's very hard to do all 3 perfectly at once, which gives players a certain "style". Does it mean that highest APM = best player in BW? No. You had to dedicate your APM to each field smartly enough to win. But every player can be very good at macro in SC2, without sacrificing much. There is consequentially very little "style" to the game, you will never see a cheater terran or a tyrant with his mutalisk control, and you will never experience the jaw dropping moment where one player suddenly has a huge army while being busy elsewhere. | ||
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HaiFiSCH26
Bulgaria91 Posts
On January 23 2012 21:11 Blazinghand wrote: The hardness of the game is all that matters to me. Yes, oh, yes.... I want this game to be hard. All I want to be able to feel its hardness. I wish to sense it as I grasp my mouse and feel its sinewy cord and its coarse texture pads. I need to know it's hard as I gently brush my fingertips across my slick black keyboard. I yearn to press against the hardness of the high skill ceiling as I ladder. I love to feel it pushing me down. I need to feel the hardness inside me as I become hard like the game, as it hardens me and makes me a better gamer. I want to feel the hardness pound away at me and make me gosu. I like it hard. :O | ||
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sickoota
Canada918 Posts
On January 24 2012 03:02 Tyrant0 wrote: Yeah cause basing the comparison of a 2 year old game to a 10 year old game upon one match, out of tens of thousands, definitely constitutes legitimate evidence. edit: and you treat late game control like no one is ever going to get better at it in 8 years. this post, lol Do you play the game? Try playing a maxed out TvP battle in sc2 vs a maxed out TvP battle in BW. Its not a matter of the mechanics either - give BW infinite unit selection and there is still 1000 times more ways to use your skill than sc2. Watch some progamer streams sometimes. Once armies have actually engaged (after positioning) zerg and protoss will most of the time (after 1a and maybe some target firing) look away from the battle to go do injects/macro. Microing in 200/200 fights often does more harm than good with the speed at which units evaporate. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On January 24 2012 03:06 shadymmj wrote: Having to seperate armies yourself is adding another "artificial" layer of mechanics into the game, especially when said armies seem to clump up at virtually any given chance. This IMO is not much different from the argument made against BW. BW has 3 types of APM dumps: Macro, micro and multitasking. Multitasking really means using APM to monitor the progress of many things at once by moving the screen. It's very hard to do all 3 perfectly at once, which gives players a certain "style". Does it mean that highest APM = best player in BW? No. You had to dedicate your APM to each field smartly enough to win. But every player can be very good at macro in SC2, without sacrificing much. There is consequentially very little "style" to the game, you will never see a cheater terran or a tyrant with his mutalisk control, and you will never experience the jaw dropping moment where one player suddenly has a huge army while being busy elsewhere. MarineKingPrime still has mindblowing marine micro. Bomber is purely defined by Macro. NesTea just has better decisions than others. Incas Mirco with gateway units. MCs forcefields. MMA's drops. Should I go on? | ||
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JayJay_90
Germany1632 Posts
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CosmicSpiral
United States15275 Posts
On January 24 2012 03:10 Big J wrote: MarineKingPrime still has mindblowing marine micro. Bomber is purely defined by Macro. NesTea just has better decisions than others. Incas Mirco with gateway units. MCs forcefields. MMA's drops. Should I go on? It's a lot harder to differentiate players merely from looking at their games. | ||
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Aterons_toss
Romania1275 Posts
On January 23 2012 20:58 Lysenko wrote: That there are GSL Code S players who win two thirds or more of their games tells me there's no skill cap that matters in SC2. This, pleas explain to me MMA and MVP if you are going to talk about a "skill cap" that once you reach you can only advance so little from, hell even Nestea and DRG, the only race that seems to be as luck based as there is no real way to break a "good" win rating to a "Flash" win rating is toss where non quite seems to be able to do it, and yet if some "ahm" nice ppl might stop saying shit about a certain EU toss that is up to date the only pro ( i believe ) that has 100% win ratio in torunaments boX vs most koreans code S pros including nestea and mvp and 70%+ vs most of them counting each game than we might see the protoss " semi - bonjwa" again after MC fall just like we have the above mentioned for zerg and terran. The game will become harder with new units and balance patches ( hopefully ), i and many other will proly not be able to enjoy it with the bw "bad AI" and "control group at a max of 12 units + no buildings control groups" simply cuz we are used to it being another way since aoe2 and up to date,so if we have to find something "hard" for sc2 it won't be the same "hard" as it is in bw. | ||
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sickoota
Canada918 Posts
On January 24 2012 03:10 Big J wrote: MarineKingPrime still has mindblowing marine micro. Bomber is purely defined by Macro. NesTea just has better decisions than others. Incas Mirco with gateway units. MCs forcefields. MMA's drops. Should I go on? These are artificial storylines made up by artosis, sorry. Every single Korean Terran, and many foreigners, have achieved around the same level of marine splitting and stutter step that marineking has (watch any recent GSL game). Same with MC forcefields, ect. I give you an unmarked replay of a Korean TvZ and you will have NO CHANCE of identifying the players, same with every other race/mu unless you happen to identify a specific build. Every player is slowly morphing into the same player, there are very few stylistic differences and they are disappearing fast. | ||
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Traditional Fire
United States60 Posts
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rasers
Sweden691 Posts
On January 24 2012 03:10 Big J wrote: MarineKingPrime still has mindblowing marine micro. Bomber is purely defined by Macro. NesTea just has better decisions than others. Incas Mirco with gateway units. MCs forcefields. MMA's drops. Should I go on? yes please. cause besides mb marinekings marine micro there is nothing impressive. | ||
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Fus
Sweden1112 Posts
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TBone-
United States2309 Posts
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DaCruise
Denmark2457 Posts
-First off SC2 is NOT easy to play. Its a VERY mechanical game, second only to BW -Yes, upsets happen and the underdog sometimes takes the win. Still, its mostly the same players going deep in tournys and taking the big wins (MVP, Nestea, MC, Stephano and so forth), which is DIRECT EVIDENCE that no one has reached the skill ceiling yet or that only the very best players have. -How can you even say that SC2 is in a bad light? Thousands of people are watching streams every day and whenever there is a big tournament it, aswell, has thousands of fans coming to watch the players and the games. Imo its the most spectator friendly E-sport out there. -Then you claim that you dont have to work hard to get to the top. Excuse me!! What? Ask HuK or any other progamer how they feel about that statement. -About the ladder I have never felt I lost to someone who was obviously a lesser player than myself. I have lost plenty of times to players I would consider even in skill, which just shows that the matchmaking system works very well. If you think you lose to lesser players all the time its you, and not the game that need fixing. -SC2 is much bigger than BW, not because of its "simplicity" but becase of its accessability and because of everyone having internet, youtube streamers and so forth. -Finally I dont think you can make the game harder without breaking it. By breaking I mean introduce 14 years old mechanics that have absolutely no place in a game in 2012 or in other words: Making the game terrible. I would even argue that SC2 is harder on the prolevel than BW simply because of the much, much harder competition. Having 10.000 opponents is harder than having a 100. THAT is the real reason why there is no "Flash or "Jaedong" in SC2. | ||
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