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[Trans] Interview, Chris Sigaty/David Kim - Page 9

Forum Index > SC2 General
191 CommentsPost a Reply
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TyrantPotato
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Australia1541 Posts
December 27 2011 07:20 GMT
#161
although i relise this interview is rather old.

to me it feels like blizzard must be looking at SC2 through some sort of hippy coloured glasses.

Terrans use all units so lets not take any out and add the most???

protoss dont use these much instead of working out a way to change that lets remove them and add funky whoop whoop balls of mineral applying goop 0.o?

zergs overseeers are only used when detection is needed which isnt every game so lets remove them? EH 0.o!!!!

they think a shredder will prevent death balls........sorry but that is just stupid hopeful BS thinking. IF ANYTHING it will allow terran to have MORE of a deathball focused at one point because the rest of the map will be covered with shredders.

the icing on the cake is that they state they understand the weaknesses of the races..,,,,

which is why protoss is getting two units removed and in return getting two gimicky casters and an Air collosus.

blizzard confuses me
Forever ZeNEX.
HolyArrow
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7116 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-27 08:04:53
December 27 2011 07:51 GMT
#162
On December 27 2011 16:19 doko100 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 27 2011 16:15 K3Nyy wrote:
On December 27 2011 16:04 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 16:01 tdt wrote:
On December 27 2011 15:37 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 15:07 tdt wrote:
On December 27 2011 02:37 ekewow wrote:
Protoss is weak? wtf..

Read it and weep, I do.
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-korean/players/?tabulator_search=&auto_redirect=1


Are you serious? TLPD is now evidence that a certain race is weak/strong?

ELO is a reliable mathematical formula showing them as weaker. You could always look at months of Code S and results too for a more narrow quantification. Statistically they are weak at the top period even David Kim says so.


First of all, this interview is more than 2 months old, so "he says" is wrong. "he said" is correct.

And second of all, TLPD is inaccurate as hell, a system in which Deezer has a higher ranking than someone like White-Ra or Boxer can not be taken seriously.

edit: Calling TLPD reliable is actually a joke. Or can you seriously reliably conclude that Deezer is better than Boxer and White-Ra?


I'd think again before you disrespect something that people put tons of effort into.

ELO just shows how well someone is doing right now. Deezer probably won a tournament or placed high or something. Also, he might be a huge stream cheating/sniping asshole, but he's actually not that bad a player. (Not to say he's Whitera's or Boxer's level.



doesnt change the fact that its inaccurate.


Heh. Obviously, you'll call any sort of mathematical/statistical measure inaccurate if it goes against your own biases. It's natural, but try to remember that in the end, these type of player scoring systems are completely objective. Maybe a few inaccuracies here and there, but no system is perfect, and just because you nitpick at small imperfections such as Deezer being placed above WhiteRa/BoxeR doesn't mean that the system is completely and utterly devoid of any meaning or accuracy. ELO, while certainly flawed for doing strict player-to-player comparisons (for example, I'm sure most would agree that MMA isn't overall superior to MVP despite him being above MVP in ELO), is still good for indicating trends, and trends are very real and important things to consider.

How do we determine if a game is balanced? Well, people can theorycraft, and pros can give their opinions, but all those things are obviously marred by bias. So, we then also have an objective, unbiased scoring system that seems to indicate a trend of Protoss being weak at the highest level, but you proceed to just rationalize things to support your own biases by discrediting objective (albeit, perhaps slightly flawed) evidence. This tells me that absolutely no argument can be made to change your views, due to a very large degree of stubbornness on your part.
ChaosTerran
Profile Joined August 2011
Austria844 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-27 08:16:50
December 27 2011 08:09 GMT
#163
On December 27 2011 16:51 HolyArrow wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 27 2011 16:19 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 16:15 K3Nyy wrote:
On December 27 2011 16:04 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 16:01 tdt wrote:
On December 27 2011 15:37 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 15:07 tdt wrote:
On December 27 2011 02:37 ekewow wrote:
Protoss is weak? wtf..

Read it and weep, I do.
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-korean/players/?tabulator_search=&auto_redirect=1


Are you serious? TLPD is now evidence that a certain race is weak/strong?

ELO is a reliable mathematical formula showing them as weaker. You could always look at months of Code S and results too for a more narrow quantification. Statistically they are weak at the top period even David Kim says so.


First of all, this interview is more than 2 months old, so "he says" is wrong. "he said" is correct.

And second of all, TLPD is inaccurate as hell, a system in which Deezer has a higher ranking than someone like White-Ra or Boxer can not be taken seriously.

edit: Calling TLPD reliable is actually a joke. Or can you seriously reliably conclude that Deezer is better than Boxer and White-Ra?


I'd think again before you disrespect something that people put tons of effort into.

ELO just shows how well someone is doing right now. Deezer probably won a tournament or placed high or something. Also, he might be a huge stream cheating/sniping asshole, but he's actually not that bad a player. (Not to say he's Whitera's or Boxer's level.



doesnt change the fact that its inaccurate.


Heh. Obviously, you'll call any sort of mathematical/statistical measure inaccurate if it goes against your own biases. It's natural, but try to remember that in the end, these type of player scoring systems are completely objective. Maybe a few inaccuracies here and there, but no system is perfect, and just because you nitpick at small imperfections such as Deezer being placed above WhiteRa/BoxeR doesn't mean that the system is completely and utterly devoid of any meaning or accuracy.



Do you really think that Deezer thing is the only inaccuracy on TLPD? That was just one example, there are hundreds of players that nobody even knows and that are not top level that have an insanely high ELO.

Seiplo, Verdi, Vortix, roof, Edge, Sungpa, iceice, DemonShip, Unix, daisuki, Pegasus, Ninkum, Bubbles, Suppy, Outside, Mafia, Mihai, Meyera, Targa... just to name a few and each and everyone of them has a ELO higher than 2100.

And not a single on of these players is anywhere close to the top level, even at foreign standards. Now please keep defending TLPD, but I'm sure that even the programmers of TLPD are aware that it is really inaccurate.

And I'm not disrespecting anyone here, just stating some facts. TLPD is extremely random, it has no statistical meaning.

So please don't call me nitpicky when there is actually hundreds of examples that prove how inaccurate TLPD is.

On December 27 2011 16:51 HolyArrow wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 27 2011 16:19 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 16:15 K3Nyy wrote:
On December 27 2011 16:04 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 16:01 tdt wrote:
On December 27 2011 15:37 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 15:07 tdt wrote:
On December 27 2011 02:37 ekewow wrote:
Protoss is weak? wtf..

Read it and weep, I do.
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-korean/players/?tabulator_search=&auto_redirect=1


Are you serious? TLPD is now evidence that a certain race is weak/strong?

ELO is a reliable mathematical formula showing them as weaker. You could always look at months of Code S and results too for a more narrow quantification. Statistically they are weak at the top period even David Kim says so.


First of all, this interview is more than 2 months old, so "he says" is wrong. "he said" is correct.

And second of all, TLPD is inaccurate as hell, a system in which Deezer has a higher ranking than someone like White-Ra or Boxer can not be taken seriously.

edit: Calling TLPD reliable is actually a joke. Or can you seriously reliably conclude that Deezer is better than Boxer and White-Ra?


I'd think again before you disrespect something that people put tons of effort into.

ELO just shows how well someone is doing right now. Deezer probably won a tournament or placed high or something. Also, he might be a huge stream cheating/sniping asshole, but he's actually not that bad a player. (Not to say he's Whitera's or Boxer's level.



doesnt change the fact that its inaccurate.



How do we determine if a game is balanced? Well, people can theorycraft, and pros can give their opinions, but all those things are obviously marred by bias. So, we then also have an objective, unbiased scoring system that seems to indicate a trend of Protoss being weak at the highest level, but you proceed to just rationalize things to support your own biases by discrediting objective (albeit, perhaps slightly flawed) evidence. This tells me that absolutely no argument can be made to change your views, due to a very large degree of stubbornness on your part.


exactly....

[image loading]
HolyArrow
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7116 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-27 08:24:41
December 27 2011 08:20 GMT
#164
On December 27 2011 17:09 doko100 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 27 2011 16:51 HolyArrow wrote:
On December 27 2011 16:19 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 16:15 K3Nyy wrote:
On December 27 2011 16:04 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 16:01 tdt wrote:
On December 27 2011 15:37 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 15:07 tdt wrote:
On December 27 2011 02:37 ekewow wrote:
Protoss is weak? wtf..

Read it and weep, I do.
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-korean/players/?tabulator_search=&auto_redirect=1


Are you serious? TLPD is now evidence that a certain race is weak/strong?

ELO is a reliable mathematical formula showing them as weaker. You could always look at months of Code S and results too for a more narrow quantification. Statistically they are weak at the top period even David Kim says so.


First of all, this interview is more than 2 months old, so "he says" is wrong. "he said" is correct.

And second of all, TLPD is inaccurate as hell, a system in which Deezer has a higher ranking than someone like White-Ra or Boxer can not be taken seriously.

edit: Calling TLPD reliable is actually a joke. Or can you seriously reliably conclude that Deezer is better than Boxer and White-Ra?


I'd think again before you disrespect something that people put tons of effort into.

ELO just shows how well someone is doing right now. Deezer probably won a tournament or placed high or something. Also, he might be a huge stream cheating/sniping asshole, but he's actually not that bad a player. (Not to say he's Whitera's or Boxer's level.



doesnt change the fact that its inaccurate.


Heh. Obviously, you'll call any sort of mathematical/statistical measure inaccurate if it goes against your own biases. It's natural, but try to remember that in the end, these type of player scoring systems are completely objective. Maybe a few inaccuracies here and there, but no system is perfect, and just because you nitpick at small imperfections such as Deezer being placed above WhiteRa/BoxeR doesn't mean that the system is completely and utterly devoid of any meaning or accuracy.



Do you really think that Deezer thing is the only inaccuracy on TLPD? That was just one example, there are hundreds of players that nobody even knows and that are not top level that have an insanely high ELO.

Seiplo, Verdi, Vortix, roof, Edge, Sungpa, iceice, DemonShip, Unix, daisuki, Pegasus, Ninkum, Bubbles, Suppy, Outside, Mafia, Mihai, Meyera, Targa... just to name a few and each and everyone of them has a ELO higher than 2100.

And not a single on of these players is anywhere close to the top level, even at foreign standards. Now please keep defending TLPD, but I'm sure that even the programmers of TLPD are aware that it is really inaccurate.

And I'm not disrespecting anyone here, just stating some facts. TLPD is extremely random, it has no statistical meaning.

So please don't call me nitpicky when there is actually hundreds of examples that prove how inaccurate TLPD is.


Check out my edit. I will say again: It's not good for player-to-player comparisons, but it's good for indicating trends. Furthermore, plenty of trends in the GSL support the general trend TLPD is displaying: That Protoss is weaker at the top level. Seriously, just look at how many Protosses have been in the finals/semifinals of Code S or Code A compared to Terrans. Surely, you can't deny that the first Protoss player on TLPD in Korea is all the way down at the 15th spot is a mere coincidence, a product of the "extreme randomness" that you speak of.

I'm also not quite sure why you added in the winrate graph. It clearly illustrates that Terran has been at an overall advantage against other races for months upon months, and only now, after so many nerfs, do we see things finally changing significantly (and also, did you admit at any point in the past that Terran was perhaps too strong at the top level? If you admitted that at some point before this month then I'm pleasantly surprised). I personally feel that justice has been done, but only time will tell what direction balance trends will take from here.
ChaosTerran
Profile Joined August 2011
Austria844 Posts
December 27 2011 08:21 GMT
#165
On December 27 2011 17:20 HolyArrow wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 27 2011 17:09 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 16:51 HolyArrow wrote:
On December 27 2011 16:19 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 16:15 K3Nyy wrote:
On December 27 2011 16:04 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 16:01 tdt wrote:
On December 27 2011 15:37 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 15:07 tdt wrote:
On December 27 2011 02:37 ekewow wrote:
Protoss is weak? wtf..

Read it and weep, I do.
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-korean/players/?tabulator_search=&auto_redirect=1


Are you serious? TLPD is now evidence that a certain race is weak/strong?

ELO is a reliable mathematical formula showing them as weaker. You could always look at months of Code S and results too for a more narrow quantification. Statistically they are weak at the top period even David Kim says so.


First of all, this interview is more than 2 months old, so "he says" is wrong. "he said" is correct.

And second of all, TLPD is inaccurate as hell, a system in which Deezer has a higher ranking than someone like White-Ra or Boxer can not be taken seriously.

edit: Calling TLPD reliable is actually a joke. Or can you seriously reliably conclude that Deezer is better than Boxer and White-Ra?


I'd think again before you disrespect something that people put tons of effort into.

ELO just shows how well someone is doing right now. Deezer probably won a tournament or placed high or something. Also, he might be a huge stream cheating/sniping asshole, but he's actually not that bad a player. (Not to say he's Whitera's or Boxer's level.



doesnt change the fact that its inaccurate.


Heh. Obviously, you'll call any sort of mathematical/statistical measure inaccurate if it goes against your own biases. It's natural, but try to remember that in the end, these type of player scoring systems are completely objective. Maybe a few inaccuracies here and there, but no system is perfect, and just because you nitpick at small imperfections such as Deezer being placed above WhiteRa/BoxeR doesn't mean that the system is completely and utterly devoid of any meaning or accuracy.



Do you really think that Deezer thing is the only inaccuracy on TLPD? That was just one example, there are hundreds of players that nobody even knows and that are not top level that have an insanely high ELO.

Seiplo, Verdi, Vortix, roof, Edge, Sungpa, iceice, DemonShip, Unix, daisuki, Pegasus, Ninkum, Bubbles, Suppy, Outside, Mafia, Mihai, Meyera, Targa... just to name a few and each and everyone of them has a ELO higher than 2100.

And not a single on of these players is anywhere close to the top level, even at foreign standards. Now please keep defending TLPD, but I'm sure that even the programmers of TLPD are aware that it is really inaccurate.

And I'm not disrespecting anyone here, just stating some facts. TLPD is extremely random, it has no statistical meaning.

So please don't call me nitpicky when there is actually hundreds of examples that prove how inaccurate TLPD is.


Check out my edit. I will say again: It's not good for player-to-player comparisons, but it's good for indicating trends. Furthermore, plenty of trends in the GSL support the general trend TLPD is displaying: That Protoss is weaker at the top level. Seriously, just look at how many Protosses have been in the finals/semifinals of Code S or Code A compared to Terrans. Surely, you can't deny that the first Protoss player on TLPD in Korea is all the way down at the 15th spot is a mere coincidence, a product of the "extreme randomness" that you speak of.


check out my edit then. oh wait you will just ignore that because it shows terran as the weakest race in november. herp derp TLPD indicates how balanced the game is, eh? Buff terran then.... I guess?
HolyArrow
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7116 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-27 08:30:23
December 27 2011 08:25 GMT
#166
On December 27 2011 17:21 doko100 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 27 2011 17:20 HolyArrow wrote:
On December 27 2011 17:09 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 16:51 HolyArrow wrote:
On December 27 2011 16:19 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 16:15 K3Nyy wrote:
On December 27 2011 16:04 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 16:01 tdt wrote:
On December 27 2011 15:37 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 15:07 tdt wrote:
[quote]
Read it and weep, I do.
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-korean/players/?tabulator_search=&auto_redirect=1


Are you serious? TLPD is now evidence that a certain race is weak/strong?

ELO is a reliable mathematical formula showing them as weaker. You could always look at months of Code S and results too for a more narrow quantification. Statistically they are weak at the top period even David Kim says so.


First of all, this interview is more than 2 months old, so "he says" is wrong. "he said" is correct.

And second of all, TLPD is inaccurate as hell, a system in which Deezer has a higher ranking than someone like White-Ra or Boxer can not be taken seriously.

edit: Calling TLPD reliable is actually a joke. Or can you seriously reliably conclude that Deezer is better than Boxer and White-Ra?


I'd think again before you disrespect something that people put tons of effort into.

ELO just shows how well someone is doing right now. Deezer probably won a tournament or placed high or something. Also, he might be a huge stream cheating/sniping asshole, but he's actually not that bad a player. (Not to say he's Whitera's or Boxer's level.



doesnt change the fact that its inaccurate.


Heh. Obviously, you'll call any sort of mathematical/statistical measure inaccurate if it goes against your own biases. It's natural, but try to remember that in the end, these type of player scoring systems are completely objective. Maybe a few inaccuracies here and there, but no system is perfect, and just because you nitpick at small imperfections such as Deezer being placed above WhiteRa/BoxeR doesn't mean that the system is completely and utterly devoid of any meaning or accuracy.



Do you really think that Deezer thing is the only inaccuracy on TLPD? That was just one example, there are hundreds of players that nobody even knows and that are not top level that have an insanely high ELO.

Seiplo, Verdi, Vortix, roof, Edge, Sungpa, iceice, DemonShip, Unix, daisuki, Pegasus, Ninkum, Bubbles, Suppy, Outside, Mafia, Mihai, Meyera, Targa... just to name a few and each and everyone of them has a ELO higher than 2100.

And not a single on of these players is anywhere close to the top level, even at foreign standards. Now please keep defending TLPD, but I'm sure that even the programmers of TLPD are aware that it is really inaccurate.

And I'm not disrespecting anyone here, just stating some facts. TLPD is extremely random, it has no statistical meaning.

So please don't call me nitpicky when there is actually hundreds of examples that prove how inaccurate TLPD is.


Check out my edit. I will say again: It's not good for player-to-player comparisons, but it's good for indicating trends. Furthermore, plenty of trends in the GSL support the general trend TLPD is displaying: That Protoss is weaker at the top level. Seriously, just look at how many Protosses have been in the finals/semifinals of Code S or Code A compared to Terrans. Surely, you can't deny that the first Protoss player on TLPD in Korea is all the way down at the 15th spot is a mere coincidence, a product of the "extreme randomness" that you speak of.


check out my edit then. oh wait you will just ignore that because it shows terran as the weakest race in november. herp derp TLPD indicates how balanced the game is, eh? Buff terran then.... I guess?


The problem here is that we're simultaneously editing stuff and thus are missing each other's edits, so don't try to use that as an excuse to accuse me of ignoring evidence. Also, I find it hilarious that you're even trying to use November's results to even sarcastically make a point. See how, overall, Terran is only at a 49% winrate compared to Protoss and Zerg being around 50%? That's good overall balance. PvT may be Protoss favored, but TvZ is T favored, while PvZ has been Z favored, so we get a nice rock/paper/scissors thing going on rather than what happened in July, August, and September.
ChaosTerran
Profile Joined August 2011
Austria844 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-27 08:36:41
December 27 2011 08:30 GMT
#167
On December 27 2011 17:25 HolyArrow wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 27 2011 17:21 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 17:20 HolyArrow wrote:
On December 27 2011 17:09 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 16:51 HolyArrow wrote:
On December 27 2011 16:19 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 16:15 K3Nyy wrote:
On December 27 2011 16:04 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 16:01 tdt wrote:
On December 27 2011 15:37 doko100 wrote:
[quote]

Are you serious? TLPD is now evidence that a certain race is weak/strong?

ELO is a reliable mathematical formula showing them as weaker. You could always look at months of Code S and results too for a more narrow quantification. Statistically they are weak at the top period even David Kim says so.


First of all, this interview is more than 2 months old, so "he says" is wrong. "he said" is correct.

And second of all, TLPD is inaccurate as hell, a system in which Deezer has a higher ranking than someone like White-Ra or Boxer can not be taken seriously.

edit: Calling TLPD reliable is actually a joke. Or can you seriously reliably conclude that Deezer is better than Boxer and White-Ra?


I'd think again before you disrespect something that people put tons of effort into.

ELO just shows how well someone is doing right now. Deezer probably won a tournament or placed high or something. Also, he might be a huge stream cheating/sniping asshole, but he's actually not that bad a player. (Not to say he's Whitera's or Boxer's level.



doesnt change the fact that its inaccurate.


Heh. Obviously, you'll call any sort of mathematical/statistical measure inaccurate if it goes against your own biases. It's natural, but try to remember that in the end, these type of player scoring systems are completely objective. Maybe a few inaccuracies here and there, but no system is perfect, and just because you nitpick at small imperfections such as Deezer being placed above WhiteRa/BoxeR doesn't mean that the system is completely and utterly devoid of any meaning or accuracy.



Do you really think that Deezer thing is the only inaccuracy on TLPD? That was just one example, there are hundreds of players that nobody even knows and that are not top level that have an insanely high ELO.

Seiplo, Verdi, Vortix, roof, Edge, Sungpa, iceice, DemonShip, Unix, daisuki, Pegasus, Ninkum, Bubbles, Suppy, Outside, Mafia, Mihai, Meyera, Targa... just to name a few and each and everyone of them has a ELO higher than 2100.

And not a single on of these players is anywhere close to the top level, even at foreign standards. Now please keep defending TLPD, but I'm sure that even the programmers of TLPD are aware that it is really inaccurate.

And I'm not disrespecting anyone here, just stating some facts. TLPD is extremely random, it has no statistical meaning.

So please don't call me nitpicky when there is actually hundreds of examples that prove how inaccurate TLPD is.


Check out my edit. I will say again: It's not good for player-to-player comparisons, but it's good for indicating trends. Furthermore, plenty of trends in the GSL support the general trend TLPD is displaying: That Protoss is weaker at the top level. Seriously, just look at how many Protosses have been in the finals/semifinals of Code S or Code A compared to Terrans. Surely, you can't deny that the first Protoss player on TLPD in Korea is all the way down at the 15th spot is a mere coincidence, a product of the "extreme randomness" that you speak of.


check out my edit then. oh wait you will just ignore that because it shows terran as the weakest race in november. herp derp TLPD indicates how balanced the game is, eh? Buff terran then.... I guess?


The problem here is that we're simultaneously editing stuff and thus are missing each other's edits, so don't try to use that as an excuse to accuse me of ignoring evidence.


Nice cop-out. So you are just ignoring the fact that TLPD shows terran as the statistically weakest race in November (after the last 2 patches in which Terran got nerfed and Protoss got buffed). According to you that proves that Terran is the weakest race, because TLPD = statistical evidence for imbalance..

edit: Then how does the argument that TvP is terran favored make any sense at all, even statistically it's protoss favored (after the last 2 patches) and how does your argument of protoss being the weakest race make any sense when TLPD (what you base your argument on) shows Terran as the weakest race? Contradiction much?

And I love how you called me stubborn when your post is actually one big contradiction that doesn't even make sense, yes I'm stubborn because other people don't know what they are talking about.... ouch.
Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10325 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-27 08:38:12
December 27 2011 08:38 GMT
#168
On December 27 2011 16:15 K3Nyy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 27 2011 16:04 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 16:01 tdt wrote:
On December 27 2011 15:37 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 15:07 tdt wrote:
On December 27 2011 02:37 ekewow wrote:
Protoss is weak? wtf..

Read it and weep, I do.
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-korean/players/?tabulator_search=&auto_redirect=1


Are you serious? TLPD is now evidence that a certain race is weak/strong?

ELO is a reliable mathematical formula showing them as weaker. You could always look at months of Code S and results too for a more narrow quantification. Statistically they are weak at the top period even David Kim says so.


First of all, this interview is more than 2 months old, so "he says" is wrong. "he said" is correct.

And second of all, TLPD is inaccurate as hell, a system in which Deezer has a higher ranking than someone like White-Ra or Boxer can not be taken seriously.

edit: Calling TLPD reliable is actually a joke. Or can you seriously reliably conclude that Deezer is better than Boxer and White-Ra?


I'd think again before you disrespect something that people put tons of effort into.

ELO just shows how well someone is doing right now. Deezer probably won a tournament or placed high or something. Also, he might be a huge stream cheating/sniping asshole, but he's actually not that bad a player. (Not to say he's Whitera's or Boxer's level.


There's a difference between disrespecting something and it just being inaccurate (AKA criticism)
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
HolyArrow
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7116 Posts
December 27 2011 08:39 GMT
#169
On December 27 2011 17:30 doko100 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 27 2011 17:25 HolyArrow wrote:
On December 27 2011 17:21 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 17:20 HolyArrow wrote:
On December 27 2011 17:09 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 16:51 HolyArrow wrote:
On December 27 2011 16:19 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 16:15 K3Nyy wrote:
On December 27 2011 16:04 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 16:01 tdt wrote:
[quote]
ELO is a reliable mathematical formula showing them as weaker. You could always look at months of Code S and results too for a more narrow quantification. Statistically they are weak at the top period even David Kim says so.


First of all, this interview is more than 2 months old, so "he says" is wrong. "he said" is correct.

And second of all, TLPD is inaccurate as hell, a system in which Deezer has a higher ranking than someone like White-Ra or Boxer can not be taken seriously.

edit: Calling TLPD reliable is actually a joke. Or can you seriously reliably conclude that Deezer is better than Boxer and White-Ra?


I'd think again before you disrespect something that people put tons of effort into.

ELO just shows how well someone is doing right now. Deezer probably won a tournament or placed high or something. Also, he might be a huge stream cheating/sniping asshole, but he's actually not that bad a player. (Not to say he's Whitera's or Boxer's level.



doesnt change the fact that its inaccurate.


Heh. Obviously, you'll call any sort of mathematical/statistical measure inaccurate if it goes against your own biases. It's natural, but try to remember that in the end, these type of player scoring systems are completely objective. Maybe a few inaccuracies here and there, but no system is perfect, and just because you nitpick at small imperfections such as Deezer being placed above WhiteRa/BoxeR doesn't mean that the system is completely and utterly devoid of any meaning or accuracy.



Do you really think that Deezer thing is the only inaccuracy on TLPD? That was just one example, there are hundreds of players that nobody even knows and that are not top level that have an insanely high ELO.

Seiplo, Verdi, Vortix, roof, Edge, Sungpa, iceice, DemonShip, Unix, daisuki, Pegasus, Ninkum, Bubbles, Suppy, Outside, Mafia, Mihai, Meyera, Targa... just to name a few and each and everyone of them has a ELO higher than 2100.

And not a single on of these players is anywhere close to the top level, even at foreign standards. Now please keep defending TLPD, but I'm sure that even the programmers of TLPD are aware that it is really inaccurate.

And I'm not disrespecting anyone here, just stating some facts. TLPD is extremely random, it has no statistical meaning.

So please don't call me nitpicky when there is actually hundreds of examples that prove how inaccurate TLPD is.


Check out my edit. I will say again: It's not good for player-to-player comparisons, but it's good for indicating trends. Furthermore, plenty of trends in the GSL support the general trend TLPD is displaying: That Protoss is weaker at the top level. Seriously, just look at how many Protosses have been in the finals/semifinals of Code S or Code A compared to Terrans. Surely, you can't deny that the first Protoss player on TLPD in Korea is all the way down at the 15th spot is a mere coincidence, a product of the "extreme randomness" that you speak of.


check out my edit then. oh wait you will just ignore that because it shows terran as the weakest race in november. herp derp TLPD indicates how balanced the game is, eh? Buff terran then.... I guess?


The problem here is that we're simultaneously editing stuff and thus are missing each other's edits, so don't try to use that as an excuse to accuse me of ignoring evidence.


Nice cop-out. So you are just ignoring the fact that TLPD shows terran as the statistically weakest race in November (after the last 2 patches in which Terran got nerfed and Protoss got buffed). According to you that proves that Terran is the weakest race, because TLPD = statistical evidence for imbalance..


I already kind of preemptively countered this crappy point, but I guess I'll also say that if you're serious about it, then you also need to look at the numbers carefully. See how Terran is a mere 1% below Protoss and Zerg in overall winrates? Now, observe how Protoss is 9% below Terran overall in October, 5% below Terran in September, and 6% below Terran in July. You're conveniently oversimplifying things. Numbers matter, and they clearly show how weak your point actually is.
ChaosTerran
Profile Joined August 2011
Austria844 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-27 08:44:39
December 27 2011 08:43 GMT
#170
On December 27 2011 17:39 HolyArrow wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 27 2011 17:30 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 17:25 HolyArrow wrote:
On December 27 2011 17:21 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 17:20 HolyArrow wrote:
On December 27 2011 17:09 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 16:51 HolyArrow wrote:
On December 27 2011 16:19 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 16:15 K3Nyy wrote:
On December 27 2011 16:04 doko100 wrote:
[quote]

First of all, this interview is more than 2 months old, so "he says" is wrong. "he said" is correct.

And second of all, TLPD is inaccurate as hell, a system in which Deezer has a higher ranking than someone like White-Ra or Boxer can not be taken seriously.

edit: Calling TLPD reliable is actually a joke. Or can you seriously reliably conclude that Deezer is better than Boxer and White-Ra?


I'd think again before you disrespect something that people put tons of effort into.

ELO just shows how well someone is doing right now. Deezer probably won a tournament or placed high or something. Also, he might be a huge stream cheating/sniping asshole, but he's actually not that bad a player. (Not to say he's Whitera's or Boxer's level.



doesnt change the fact that its inaccurate.


Heh. Obviously, you'll call any sort of mathematical/statistical measure inaccurate if it goes against your own biases. It's natural, but try to remember that in the end, these type of player scoring systems are completely objective. Maybe a few inaccuracies here and there, but no system is perfect, and just because you nitpick at small imperfections such as Deezer being placed above WhiteRa/BoxeR doesn't mean that the system is completely and utterly devoid of any meaning or accuracy.



Do you really think that Deezer thing is the only inaccuracy on TLPD? That was just one example, there are hundreds of players that nobody even knows and that are not top level that have an insanely high ELO.

Seiplo, Verdi, Vortix, roof, Edge, Sungpa, iceice, DemonShip, Unix, daisuki, Pegasus, Ninkum, Bubbles, Suppy, Outside, Mafia, Mihai, Meyera, Targa... just to name a few and each and everyone of them has a ELO higher than 2100.

And not a single on of these players is anywhere close to the top level, even at foreign standards. Now please keep defending TLPD, but I'm sure that even the programmers of TLPD are aware that it is really inaccurate.

And I'm not disrespecting anyone here, just stating some facts. TLPD is extremely random, it has no statistical meaning.

So please don't call me nitpicky when there is actually hundreds of examples that prove how inaccurate TLPD is.


Check out my edit. I will say again: It's not good for player-to-player comparisons, but it's good for indicating trends. Furthermore, plenty of trends in the GSL support the general trend TLPD is displaying: That Protoss is weaker at the top level. Seriously, just look at how many Protosses have been in the finals/semifinals of Code S or Code A compared to Terrans. Surely, you can't deny that the first Protoss player on TLPD in Korea is all the way down at the 15th spot is a mere coincidence, a product of the "extreme randomness" that you speak of.


check out my edit then. oh wait you will just ignore that because it shows terran as the weakest race in november. herp derp TLPD indicates how balanced the game is, eh? Buff terran then.... I guess?


The problem here is that we're simultaneously editing stuff and thus are missing each other's edits, so don't try to use that as an excuse to accuse me of ignoring evidence.


Nice cop-out. So you are just ignoring the fact that TLPD shows terran as the statistically weakest race in November (after the last 2 patches in which Terran got nerfed and Protoss got buffed). According to you that proves that Terran is the weakest race, because TLPD = statistical evidence for imbalance..


I already kind of preemptively countered this crappy point, but I guess I'll also say that if you're serious about it, then you also need to look at the numbers carefully. See how Terran is a mere 1% below Protoss and Zerg in overall winrates? Now, observe how Protoss is 9% below Terran overall in October, 5% below Terran in September, and 6% below Terran in July. You're conveniently oversimplifying things. Numbers matter, and they clearly show how weak your point actually is.


My point is that TLPD is inaccurate and therefore doesn't prove anything at all. Your argument is that, according to TLPD, Protoss is the weakest race. However, when we look at TLPD it shows Terran as the weakest race. I'm not saying that Terran is the weakest race, all I'm saying is that your point is wrong, because A: TLPD is inaccurate and B: TLPD doesn't show Protoss as the weakest race, so it is actually ridiculous or I would even say impossible to logically conclude that Protoss is the weakest race. Even based on TLPD they are not the weakest race.

So even if TLPD was accurate, your conclusion that Protoss is the weakest race would still be wrong, so it doesn't even matter, you are wrong either way.
Boblhead
Profile Joined August 2010
United States2577 Posts
December 27 2011 08:48 GMT
#171
All i read was cross region battles *Crosses fingers for multi region play*
TheAntZ
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Israel6248 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-27 08:53:31
December 27 2011 08:53 GMT
#172
On December 27 2011 17:48 Boblhead wrote:
All i read was cross region battles *Crosses fingers for multi region play*

hah, this is blizzard. dont get your hopes up. They are more likely to add twitter integration than anything useful to competitive players. Even if it does get added they'll probably charge insane amounts for it.
43084 | Honeybadger: "So july, you're in the GSL finals. How do you feel?!" ~ July: "HUNGRY."
HolyArrow
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7116 Posts
December 27 2011 08:53 GMT
#173
On December 27 2011 17:30 doko100 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 27 2011 17:25 HolyArrow wrote:
On December 27 2011 17:21 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 17:20 HolyArrow wrote:
On December 27 2011 17:09 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 16:51 HolyArrow wrote:
On December 27 2011 16:19 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 16:15 K3Nyy wrote:
On December 27 2011 16:04 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 16:01 tdt wrote:
[quote]
ELO is a reliable mathematical formula showing them as weaker. You could always look at months of Code S and results too for a more narrow quantification. Statistically they are weak at the top period even David Kim says so.


First of all, this interview is more than 2 months old, so "he says" is wrong. "he said" is correct.

And second of all, TLPD is inaccurate as hell, a system in which Deezer has a higher ranking than someone like White-Ra or Boxer can not be taken seriously.

edit: Calling TLPD reliable is actually a joke. Or can you seriously reliably conclude that Deezer is better than Boxer and White-Ra?


I'd think again before you disrespect something that people put tons of effort into.

ELO just shows how well someone is doing right now. Deezer probably won a tournament or placed high or something. Also, he might be a huge stream cheating/sniping asshole, but he's actually not that bad a player. (Not to say he's Whitera's or Boxer's level.



doesnt change the fact that its inaccurate.


Heh. Obviously, you'll call any sort of mathematical/statistical measure inaccurate if it goes against your own biases. It's natural, but try to remember that in the end, these type of player scoring systems are completely objective. Maybe a few inaccuracies here and there, but no system is perfect, and just because you nitpick at small imperfections such as Deezer being placed above WhiteRa/BoxeR doesn't mean that the system is completely and utterly devoid of any meaning or accuracy.



Do you really think that Deezer thing is the only inaccuracy on TLPD? That was just one example, there are hundreds of players that nobody even knows and that are not top level that have an insanely high ELO.

Seiplo, Verdi, Vortix, roof, Edge, Sungpa, iceice, DemonShip, Unix, daisuki, Pegasus, Ninkum, Bubbles, Suppy, Outside, Mafia, Mihai, Meyera, Targa... just to name a few and each and everyone of them has a ELO higher than 2100.

And not a single on of these players is anywhere close to the top level, even at foreign standards. Now please keep defending TLPD, but I'm sure that even the programmers of TLPD are aware that it is really inaccurate.

And I'm not disrespecting anyone here, just stating some facts. TLPD is extremely random, it has no statistical meaning.

So please don't call me nitpicky when there is actually hundreds of examples that prove how inaccurate TLPD is.


Check out my edit. I will say again: It's not good for player-to-player comparisons, but it's good for indicating trends. Furthermore, plenty of trends in the GSL support the general trend TLPD is displaying: That Protoss is weaker at the top level. Seriously, just look at how many Protosses have been in the finals/semifinals of Code S or Code A compared to Terrans. Surely, you can't deny that the first Protoss player on TLPD in Korea is all the way down at the 15th spot is a mere coincidence, a product of the "extreme randomness" that you speak of.


check out my edit then. oh wait you will just ignore that because it shows terran as the weakest race in november. herp derp TLPD indicates how balanced the game is, eh? Buff terran then.... I guess?


The problem here is that we're simultaneously editing stuff and thus are missing each other's edits, so don't try to use that as an excuse to accuse me of ignoring evidence.


Nice cop-out. So you are just ignoring the fact that TLPD shows terran as the statistically weakest race in November (after the last 2 patches in which Terran got nerfed and Protoss got buffed). According to you that proves that Terran is the weakest race, because TLPD = statistical evidence for imbalance..

edit: Then how does the argument that TvP is terran favored make any sense at all, even statistically it's protoss favored (after the last 2 patches) and how does your argument of protoss being the weakest race make any sense when TLPD (what you base your argument on) shows Terran as the weakest race? Contradiction much?

And I love how you called me stubborn when your post is actually one big contradiction that doesn't even make sense, yes I'm stubborn because other people don't know what they are talking about.... ouch.


In response to your edit: There are quite a few things wrong with your logic, and it's pretty clear to me that all you are doing is exaggerating certain things about my points to misrepresent them, and/or are willfully misinterpreting them because it's convenient for you to make my points look silly, though they are certainly not. First of all, you assume that just because the TLPD for November alone finally has Terran a mere 1% below Protoss and Zerg in overall winrate that Terran is now the weakest race. However, this would be a very limited scope of how things are, and, if you look at the big picture, the Protoss line is still well below both the Terran and Zerg lines, while the Terran line has finally stopped being the top line for the first time in the entire year. Only time will tell as to how the big picture will change, but, right now, Terran is a mere 1% below Zerg and Protoss, which I'm sure anyone would agree is pretty negligible.

Secondly, Terran being 1% below Zerg/Protoss in overall winrate is negligible; the first Protoss in the Korean ELO being at rank 15 is not. If you have a relatively small pool of players (compared to an international view of tons of different games) and none of the top 14 are Protoss, then I think it clearly shows that the best Protoss players are clearly having trouble competing with the very best of the other races. This also shows in the general popular perception of respective heroes of each race. Terran has very clear heros, such as MVP and MMA. Zerg as well, with Nestea, DRG, and Leenock. But, in the Korean scene, what does Protoss have? Oz? He's looked fairly strong, but far from MVP/MMA/Nestea/DRG status. HerO? He's not even out of Code A, and overall has a pretty bad record in Korea. MC is the best candidate in my opinion, but even he hasn't done all that much lately, and has certainly fallen from being up there with MVP and Nestea in terms of results.
ChaosTerran
Profile Joined August 2011
Austria844 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-27 08:59:39
December 27 2011 08:57 GMT
#174
On December 27 2011 17:53 HolyArrow wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 27 2011 17:30 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 17:25 HolyArrow wrote:
On December 27 2011 17:21 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 17:20 HolyArrow wrote:
On December 27 2011 17:09 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 16:51 HolyArrow wrote:
On December 27 2011 16:19 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 16:15 K3Nyy wrote:
On December 27 2011 16:04 doko100 wrote:
[quote]

First of all, this interview is more than 2 months old, so "he says" is wrong. "he said" is correct.

And second of all, TLPD is inaccurate as hell, a system in which Deezer has a higher ranking than someone like White-Ra or Boxer can not be taken seriously.

edit: Calling TLPD reliable is actually a joke. Or can you seriously reliably conclude that Deezer is better than Boxer and White-Ra?


I'd think again before you disrespect something that people put tons of effort into.

ELO just shows how well someone is doing right now. Deezer probably won a tournament or placed high or something. Also, he might be a huge stream cheating/sniping asshole, but he's actually not that bad a player. (Not to say he's Whitera's or Boxer's level.



doesnt change the fact that its inaccurate.


Heh. Obviously, you'll call any sort of mathematical/statistical measure inaccurate if it goes against your own biases. It's natural, but try to remember that in the end, these type of player scoring systems are completely objective. Maybe a few inaccuracies here and there, but no system is perfect, and just because you nitpick at small imperfections such as Deezer being placed above WhiteRa/BoxeR doesn't mean that the system is completely and utterly devoid of any meaning or accuracy.



Do you really think that Deezer thing is the only inaccuracy on TLPD? That was just one example, there are hundreds of players that nobody even knows and that are not top level that have an insanely high ELO.

Seiplo, Verdi, Vortix, roof, Edge, Sungpa, iceice, DemonShip, Unix, daisuki, Pegasus, Ninkum, Bubbles, Suppy, Outside, Mafia, Mihai, Meyera, Targa... just to name a few and each and everyone of them has a ELO higher than 2100.

And not a single on of these players is anywhere close to the top level, even at foreign standards. Now please keep defending TLPD, but I'm sure that even the programmers of TLPD are aware that it is really inaccurate.

And I'm not disrespecting anyone here, just stating some facts. TLPD is extremely random, it has no statistical meaning.

So please don't call me nitpicky when there is actually hundreds of examples that prove how inaccurate TLPD is.


Check out my edit. I will say again: It's not good for player-to-player comparisons, but it's good for indicating trends. Furthermore, plenty of trends in the GSL support the general trend TLPD is displaying: That Protoss is weaker at the top level. Seriously, just look at how many Protosses have been in the finals/semifinals of Code S or Code A compared to Terrans. Surely, you can't deny that the first Protoss player on TLPD in Korea is all the way down at the 15th spot is a mere coincidence, a product of the "extreme randomness" that you speak of.


check out my edit then. oh wait you will just ignore that because it shows terran as the weakest race in november. herp derp TLPD indicates how balanced the game is, eh? Buff terran then.... I guess?


The problem here is that we're simultaneously editing stuff and thus are missing each other's edits, so don't try to use that as an excuse to accuse me of ignoring evidence.


Nice cop-out. So you are just ignoring the fact that TLPD shows terran as the statistically weakest race in November (after the last 2 patches in which Terran got nerfed and Protoss got buffed). According to you that proves that Terran is the weakest race, because TLPD = statistical evidence for imbalance..

edit: Then how does the argument that TvP is terran favored make any sense at all, even statistically it's protoss favored (after the last 2 patches) and how does your argument of protoss being the weakest race make any sense when TLPD (what you base your argument on) shows Terran as the weakest race? Contradiction much?

And I love how you called me stubborn when your post is actually one big contradiction that doesn't even make sense, yes I'm stubborn because other people don't know what they are talking about.... ouch.


In response to your edit: There are quite a few things wrong with your logic, and it's pretty clear to me that all you are doing is exaggerating certain things about my points to misrepresent them, and/or are willfully misinterpreting them because it's convenient for you to make my points look silly, though they are certainly not. First of all, you assume that just because the TLPD for November alone finally has Terran a mere 1% below Protoss and Zerg in overall winrate that Terran is now the weakest race. However, this would be a very limited scope of how things are, and, if you look at the big picture, the Protoss line is still well below both the Terran and Zerg lines, while the Terran line has finally stopped being the top line for the first time in the entire year. Only time will tell as to how the big picture will change, but, right now, Terran is a mere 1% below Zerg and Protoss, which I'm sure anyone would agree is pretty negligible.

Secondly, Terran being 1% below Zerg/Protoss in overall winrate is negligible; the first Protoss in the Korean ELO being at rank 15 is not. If you have a relatively small pool of players (compared to an international view of tons of different games) and none of the top 14 are Protoss, then I think it clearly shows that the best Protoss players are clearly having trouble competing with the very best of the other races. This also shows in the general popular perception of respective heroes of each race. Terran has very clear heros, such as MVP and MMA. Zerg as well, with Nestea, DRG, and Leenock. But, in the Korean scene, what does Protoss have? Oz? He's looked fairly strong, but far from MVP/MMA/Nestea/DRG status. HerO? He's not even out of Code A, and overall has a pretty bad record in Korea. MC is the best candidate in my opinion, but even he hasn't done all that much lately, and has certainly fallen from being up there with MVP and Nestea in terms of results.



Like I said, my point is not that Terran is the weakest race. And your post is extremely biased. Seriously just because there is only 1 Protoss in the Top 15 means that Protoss is evidently the weakest race? Or maybe Zerg and Terran players are just better, this is such an incredibly small player pool (15 people) there is no statistical evidence at all because individual skill could very well be the main factor when limiting the scope to just 15 people.

You are incredibly bias and actually wasting my time now, statistically Protoss isn't the weakest race, which is what I was getting at, intelligent people will get the point, others won't.

And you are also ignoring the last 2 patches, who cares about the entire year when ,in the last 2 patches, Terran got nerfed and Protoss got buffed, the game changed so drastically it is absolutely irrelevant what happened before that.
HolyArrow
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7116 Posts
December 27 2011 08:59 GMT
#175
On December 27 2011 17:43 doko100 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 27 2011 17:39 HolyArrow wrote:
On December 27 2011 17:30 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 17:25 HolyArrow wrote:
On December 27 2011 17:21 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 17:20 HolyArrow wrote:
On December 27 2011 17:09 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 16:51 HolyArrow wrote:
On December 27 2011 16:19 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 16:15 K3Nyy wrote:
[quote]

I'd think again before you disrespect something that people put tons of effort into.

ELO just shows how well someone is doing right now. Deezer probably won a tournament or placed high or something. Also, he might be a huge stream cheating/sniping asshole, but he's actually not that bad a player. (Not to say he's Whitera's or Boxer's level.



doesnt change the fact that its inaccurate.


Heh. Obviously, you'll call any sort of mathematical/statistical measure inaccurate if it goes against your own biases. It's natural, but try to remember that in the end, these type of player scoring systems are completely objective. Maybe a few inaccuracies here and there, but no system is perfect, and just because you nitpick at small imperfections such as Deezer being placed above WhiteRa/BoxeR doesn't mean that the system is completely and utterly devoid of any meaning or accuracy.



Do you really think that Deezer thing is the only inaccuracy on TLPD? That was just one example, there are hundreds of players that nobody even knows and that are not top level that have an insanely high ELO.

Seiplo, Verdi, Vortix, roof, Edge, Sungpa, iceice, DemonShip, Unix, daisuki, Pegasus, Ninkum, Bubbles, Suppy, Outside, Mafia, Mihai, Meyera, Targa... just to name a few and each and everyone of them has a ELO higher than 2100.

And not a single on of these players is anywhere close to the top level, even at foreign standards. Now please keep defending TLPD, but I'm sure that even the programmers of TLPD are aware that it is really inaccurate.

And I'm not disrespecting anyone here, just stating some facts. TLPD is extremely random, it has no statistical meaning.

So please don't call me nitpicky when there is actually hundreds of examples that prove how inaccurate TLPD is.


Check out my edit. I will say again: It's not good for player-to-player comparisons, but it's good for indicating trends. Furthermore, plenty of trends in the GSL support the general trend TLPD is displaying: That Protoss is weaker at the top level. Seriously, just look at how many Protosses have been in the finals/semifinals of Code S or Code A compared to Terrans. Surely, you can't deny that the first Protoss player on TLPD in Korea is all the way down at the 15th spot is a mere coincidence, a product of the "extreme randomness" that you speak of.


check out my edit then. oh wait you will just ignore that because it shows terran as the weakest race in november. herp derp TLPD indicates how balanced the game is, eh? Buff terran then.... I guess?


The problem here is that we're simultaneously editing stuff and thus are missing each other's edits, so don't try to use that as an excuse to accuse me of ignoring evidence.


Nice cop-out. So you are just ignoring the fact that TLPD shows terran as the statistically weakest race in November (after the last 2 patches in which Terran got nerfed and Protoss got buffed). According to you that proves that Terran is the weakest race, because TLPD = statistical evidence for imbalance..


I already kind of preemptively countered this crappy point, but I guess I'll also say that if you're serious about it, then you also need to look at the numbers carefully. See how Terran is a mere 1% below Protoss and Zerg in overall winrates? Now, observe how Protoss is 9% below Terran overall in October, 5% below Terran in September, and 6% below Terran in July. You're conveniently oversimplifying things. Numbers matter, and they clearly show how weak your point actually is.


My point is that TLPD is inaccurate and therefore doesn't prove anything at all. Your argument is that, according to TLPD, Protoss is the weakest race. However, when we look at TLPD it shows Terran as the weakest race. I'm not saying that Terran is the weakest race, all I'm saying is that your point is wrong, because A: TLPD is inaccurate and B: TLPD doesn't show Protoss as the weakest race, so it is actually ridiculous or I would even say impossible to logically conclude that Protoss is the weakest race. Even based on TLPD they are not the weakest race.

So even if TLPD was accurate, your conclusion that Protoss is the weakest race would still be wrong, so it doesn't even matter, you are wrong either way.


Hardly. You neglect the fact that ELO is more of a long-term thing, whereas overall winrates for a single month is a very limited picture. A more reasonable view for you to take would be to actually look at the Terran and Zerg lines in the main graph. See how they're still significantly above the Protoss line? That's because those lines represent the long term; the big picture.
ChaosTerran
Profile Joined August 2011
Austria844 Posts
December 27 2011 09:01 GMT
#176
On December 27 2011 17:59 HolyArrow wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 27 2011 17:43 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 17:39 HolyArrow wrote:
On December 27 2011 17:30 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 17:25 HolyArrow wrote:
On December 27 2011 17:21 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 17:20 HolyArrow wrote:
On December 27 2011 17:09 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 16:51 HolyArrow wrote:
On December 27 2011 16:19 doko100 wrote:
[quote]


doesnt change the fact that its inaccurate.


Heh. Obviously, you'll call any sort of mathematical/statistical measure inaccurate if it goes against your own biases. It's natural, but try to remember that in the end, these type of player scoring systems are completely objective. Maybe a few inaccuracies here and there, but no system is perfect, and just because you nitpick at small imperfections such as Deezer being placed above WhiteRa/BoxeR doesn't mean that the system is completely and utterly devoid of any meaning or accuracy.



Do you really think that Deezer thing is the only inaccuracy on TLPD? That was just one example, there are hundreds of players that nobody even knows and that are not top level that have an insanely high ELO.

Seiplo, Verdi, Vortix, roof, Edge, Sungpa, iceice, DemonShip, Unix, daisuki, Pegasus, Ninkum, Bubbles, Suppy, Outside, Mafia, Mihai, Meyera, Targa... just to name a few and each and everyone of them has a ELO higher than 2100.

And not a single on of these players is anywhere close to the top level, even at foreign standards. Now please keep defending TLPD, but I'm sure that even the programmers of TLPD are aware that it is really inaccurate.

And I'm not disrespecting anyone here, just stating some facts. TLPD is extremely random, it has no statistical meaning.

So please don't call me nitpicky when there is actually hundreds of examples that prove how inaccurate TLPD is.


Check out my edit. I will say again: It's not good for player-to-player comparisons, but it's good for indicating trends. Furthermore, plenty of trends in the GSL support the general trend TLPD is displaying: That Protoss is weaker at the top level. Seriously, just look at how many Protosses have been in the finals/semifinals of Code S or Code A compared to Terrans. Surely, you can't deny that the first Protoss player on TLPD in Korea is all the way down at the 15th spot is a mere coincidence, a product of the "extreme randomness" that you speak of.


check out my edit then. oh wait you will just ignore that because it shows terran as the weakest race in november. herp derp TLPD indicates how balanced the game is, eh? Buff terran then.... I guess?


The problem here is that we're simultaneously editing stuff and thus are missing each other's edits, so don't try to use that as an excuse to accuse me of ignoring evidence.


Nice cop-out. So you are just ignoring the fact that TLPD shows terran as the statistically weakest race in November (after the last 2 patches in which Terran got nerfed and Protoss got buffed). According to you that proves that Terran is the weakest race, because TLPD = statistical evidence for imbalance..


I already kind of preemptively countered this crappy point, but I guess I'll also say that if you're serious about it, then you also need to look at the numbers carefully. See how Terran is a mere 1% below Protoss and Zerg in overall winrates? Now, observe how Protoss is 9% below Terran overall in October, 5% below Terran in September, and 6% below Terran in July. You're conveniently oversimplifying things. Numbers matter, and they clearly show how weak your point actually is.


My point is that TLPD is inaccurate and therefore doesn't prove anything at all. Your argument is that, according to TLPD, Protoss is the weakest race. However, when we look at TLPD it shows Terran as the weakest race. I'm not saying that Terran is the weakest race, all I'm saying is that your point is wrong, because A: TLPD is inaccurate and B: TLPD doesn't show Protoss as the weakest race, so it is actually ridiculous or I would even say impossible to logically conclude that Protoss is the weakest race. Even based on TLPD they are not the weakest race.

So even if TLPD was accurate, your conclusion that Protoss is the weakest race would still be wrong, so it doesn't even matter, you are wrong either way.


Hardly. You neglect the fact that ELO is more of a long-term thing, whereas overall winrates for a single month is a very limited picture. A more reasonable view for you to take would be to actually look at the Terran and Zerg lines in the main graph. See how they're still significantly above the Protoss line? That's because those lines represent the long term; the big picture.


No it wouldn't be reasonable to look at the lines. There were 2 nerfs to terran very recently and heavy buffs to protoss, the lines completely ignore this.
HolyArrow
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7116 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-27 09:14:11
December 27 2011 09:12 GMT
#177
On December 27 2011 17:57 doko100 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 27 2011 17:53 HolyArrow wrote:
On December 27 2011 17:30 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 17:25 HolyArrow wrote:
On December 27 2011 17:21 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 17:20 HolyArrow wrote:
On December 27 2011 17:09 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 16:51 HolyArrow wrote:
On December 27 2011 16:19 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 16:15 K3Nyy wrote:
[quote]

I'd think again before you disrespect something that people put tons of effort into.

ELO just shows how well someone is doing right now. Deezer probably won a tournament or placed high or something. Also, he might be a huge stream cheating/sniping asshole, but he's actually not that bad a player. (Not to say he's Whitera's or Boxer's level.



doesnt change the fact that its inaccurate.


Heh. Obviously, you'll call any sort of mathematical/statistical measure inaccurate if it goes against your own biases. It's natural, but try to remember that in the end, these type of player scoring systems are completely objective. Maybe a few inaccuracies here and there, but no system is perfect, and just because you nitpick at small imperfections such as Deezer being placed above WhiteRa/BoxeR doesn't mean that the system is completely and utterly devoid of any meaning or accuracy.



Do you really think that Deezer thing is the only inaccuracy on TLPD? That was just one example, there are hundreds of players that nobody even knows and that are not top level that have an insanely high ELO.

Seiplo, Verdi, Vortix, roof, Edge, Sungpa, iceice, DemonShip, Unix, daisuki, Pegasus, Ninkum, Bubbles, Suppy, Outside, Mafia, Mihai, Meyera, Targa... just to name a few and each and everyone of them has a ELO higher than 2100.

And not a single on of these players is anywhere close to the top level, even at foreign standards. Now please keep defending TLPD, but I'm sure that even the programmers of TLPD are aware that it is really inaccurate.

And I'm not disrespecting anyone here, just stating some facts. TLPD is extremely random, it has no statistical meaning.

So please don't call me nitpicky when there is actually hundreds of examples that prove how inaccurate TLPD is.


Check out my edit. I will say again: It's not good for player-to-player comparisons, but it's good for indicating trends. Furthermore, plenty of trends in the GSL support the general trend TLPD is displaying: That Protoss is weaker at the top level. Seriously, just look at how many Protosses have been in the finals/semifinals of Code S or Code A compared to Terrans. Surely, you can't deny that the first Protoss player on TLPD in Korea is all the way down at the 15th spot is a mere coincidence, a product of the "extreme randomness" that you speak of.


check out my edit then. oh wait you will just ignore that because it shows terran as the weakest race in november. herp derp TLPD indicates how balanced the game is, eh? Buff terran then.... I guess?


The problem here is that we're simultaneously editing stuff and thus are missing each other's edits, so don't try to use that as an excuse to accuse me of ignoring evidence.


Nice cop-out. So you are just ignoring the fact that TLPD shows terran as the statistically weakest race in November (after the last 2 patches in which Terran got nerfed and Protoss got buffed). According to you that proves that Terran is the weakest race, because TLPD = statistical evidence for imbalance..

edit: Then how does the argument that TvP is terran favored make any sense at all, even statistically it's protoss favored (after the last 2 patches) and how does your argument of protoss being the weakest race make any sense when TLPD (what you base your argument on) shows Terran as the weakest race? Contradiction much?

And I love how you called me stubborn when your post is actually one big contradiction that doesn't even make sense, yes I'm stubborn because other people don't know what they are talking about.... ouch.


In response to your edit: There are quite a few things wrong with your logic, and it's pretty clear to me that all you are doing is exaggerating certain things about my points to misrepresent them, and/or are willfully misinterpreting them because it's convenient for you to make my points look silly, though they are certainly not. First of all, you assume that just because the TLPD for November alone finally has Terran a mere 1% below Protoss and Zerg in overall winrate that Terran is now the weakest race. However, this would be a very limited scope of how things are, and, if you look at the big picture, the Protoss line is still well below both the Terran and Zerg lines, while the Terran line has finally stopped being the top line for the first time in the entire year. Only time will tell as to how the big picture will change, but, right now, Terran is a mere 1% below Zerg and Protoss, which I'm sure anyone would agree is pretty negligible.

Secondly, Terran being 1% below Zerg/Protoss in overall winrate is negligible; the first Protoss in the Korean ELO being at rank 15 is not. If you have a relatively small pool of players (compared to an international view of tons of different games) and none of the top 14 are Protoss, then I think it clearly shows that the best Protoss players are clearly having trouble competing with the very best of the other races. This also shows in the general popular perception of respective heroes of each race. Terran has very clear heros, such as MVP and MMA. Zerg as well, with Nestea, DRG, and Leenock. But, in the Korean scene, what does Protoss have? Oz? He's looked fairly strong, but far from MVP/MMA/Nestea/DRG status. HerO? He's not even out of Code A, and overall has a pretty bad record in Korea. MC is the best candidate in my opinion, but even he hasn't done all that much lately, and has certainly fallen from being up there with MVP and Nestea in terms of results.



Like I said, my point is not that Terran is the weakest race. And your post is extremely biased. Seriously just because there is only 1 Protoss in the Top 15 means that Protoss is evidently the weakest race? Or maybe Zerg and Terran players are just better, this is such an incredibly small player pool (15 people) there is no statistical evidence at all because individual skill could very well be the main factor when limiting the scope to just 15 people.

You are incredibly bias and actually wasting my time now, statistically Protoss isn't the weakest race, which is what I was getting at, intelligent people will get the point, others won't.

And you are also ignoring the last 2 patches, who cares about the entire year when ,in the last 2 patches, Terran got nerfed and Protoss got buffed, the game changed so drastically it is absolutely irrelevant what happened before that.


I'm okay with you thinking that I'm wasting your time, because I'm getting kind of tired of this as well. However, I will make one last point: The fact that you don't think the rest of the year matters makes your implication that I'm unintelligent terribly ironic. There's more to balance than simply how a race is currently doing. Races are designed differently - some better, some worse than others, and I'm pretty sure most agree that Terran is the best designed race, in its versatility and modularity. There's a reason Blizzard took so long to nerf the 1-1-1 all-in, and that's because Terran is so well designed that it was difficult for them to figure out what to nerf. The strength of the 1-1-1 all-in wasn't due to a single unit - it was due to how incredibly well all the units worked together - hence, good design, and that's just one example. Throughout the year, Terran has been subjected to plenty of nerfs, yet only now Terran has finally been brought down, and that's ignoring the fact that statistics will be skewed immediately after a nerf because players haven't had much time to figure other things out yet. Why did it take this long for Terran to be brought down? Simple: It's so well designed. And while good design is certainly laudable on behalf of the developers, it's not good for balance when one race is so well designed compared to the other two.

You can try to make the argument that the past is irrelevant, but it isn't. At the core of each race is a design, and that design dictates how the metagame will shift. A badly designed race will flounder when its core strategies are figured out/nerfed and will have a difficult time bouncing back, while a well designed race will always find more options. Design is absolutely paramount in considering the big picture of balance, and hopefully HotS will fix some big design problems present in the game overall.
ChaosTerran
Profile Joined August 2011
Austria844 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-27 09:23:17
December 27 2011 09:18 GMT
#178
On December 27 2011 18:12 HolyArrow wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 27 2011 17:57 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 17:53 HolyArrow wrote:
On December 27 2011 17:30 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 17:25 HolyArrow wrote:
On December 27 2011 17:21 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 17:20 HolyArrow wrote:
On December 27 2011 17:09 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 16:51 HolyArrow wrote:
On December 27 2011 16:19 doko100 wrote:
[quote]


doesnt change the fact that its inaccurate.


Heh. Obviously, you'll call any sort of mathematical/statistical measure inaccurate if it goes against your own biases. It's natural, but try to remember that in the end, these type of player scoring systems are completely objective. Maybe a few inaccuracies here and there, but no system is perfect, and just because you nitpick at small imperfections such as Deezer being placed above WhiteRa/BoxeR doesn't mean that the system is completely and utterly devoid of any meaning or accuracy.



Do you really think that Deezer thing is the only inaccuracy on TLPD? That was just one example, there are hundreds of players that nobody even knows and that are not top level that have an insanely high ELO.

Seiplo, Verdi, Vortix, roof, Edge, Sungpa, iceice, DemonShip, Unix, daisuki, Pegasus, Ninkum, Bubbles, Suppy, Outside, Mafia, Mihai, Meyera, Targa... just to name a few and each and everyone of them has a ELO higher than 2100.

And not a single on of these players is anywhere close to the top level, even at foreign standards. Now please keep defending TLPD, but I'm sure that even the programmers of TLPD are aware that it is really inaccurate.

And I'm not disrespecting anyone here, just stating some facts. TLPD is extremely random, it has no statistical meaning.

So please don't call me nitpicky when there is actually hundreds of examples that prove how inaccurate TLPD is.


Check out my edit. I will say again: It's not good for player-to-player comparisons, but it's good for indicating trends. Furthermore, plenty of trends in the GSL support the general trend TLPD is displaying: That Protoss is weaker at the top level. Seriously, just look at how many Protosses have been in the finals/semifinals of Code S or Code A compared to Terrans. Surely, you can't deny that the first Protoss player on TLPD in Korea is all the way down at the 15th spot is a mere coincidence, a product of the "extreme randomness" that you speak of.


check out my edit then. oh wait you will just ignore that because it shows terran as the weakest race in november. herp derp TLPD indicates how balanced the game is, eh? Buff terran then.... I guess?


The problem here is that we're simultaneously editing stuff and thus are missing each other's edits, so don't try to use that as an excuse to accuse me of ignoring evidence.


Nice cop-out. So you are just ignoring the fact that TLPD shows terran as the statistically weakest race in November (after the last 2 patches in which Terran got nerfed and Protoss got buffed). According to you that proves that Terran is the weakest race, because TLPD = statistical evidence for imbalance..

edit: Then how does the argument that TvP is terran favored make any sense at all, even statistically it's protoss favored (after the last 2 patches) and how does your argument of protoss being the weakest race make any sense when TLPD (what you base your argument on) shows Terran as the weakest race? Contradiction much?

And I love how you called me stubborn when your post is actually one big contradiction that doesn't even make sense, yes I'm stubborn because other people don't know what they are talking about.... ouch.


In response to your edit: There are quite a few things wrong with your logic, and it's pretty clear to me that all you are doing is exaggerating certain things about my points to misrepresent them, and/or are willfully misinterpreting them because it's convenient for you to make my points look silly, though they are certainly not. First of all, you assume that just because the TLPD for November alone finally has Terran a mere 1% below Protoss and Zerg in overall winrate that Terran is now the weakest race. However, this would be a very limited scope of how things are, and, if you look at the big picture, the Protoss line is still well below both the Terran and Zerg lines, while the Terran line has finally stopped being the top line for the first time in the entire year. Only time will tell as to how the big picture will change, but, right now, Terran is a mere 1% below Zerg and Protoss, which I'm sure anyone would agree is pretty negligible.

Secondly, Terran being 1% below Zerg/Protoss in overall winrate is negligible; the first Protoss in the Korean ELO being at rank 15 is not. If you have a relatively small pool of players (compared to an international view of tons of different games) and none of the top 14 are Protoss, then I think it clearly shows that the best Protoss players are clearly having trouble competing with the very best of the other races. This also shows in the general popular perception of respective heroes of each race. Terran has very clear heros, such as MVP and MMA. Zerg as well, with Nestea, DRG, and Leenock. But, in the Korean scene, what does Protoss have? Oz? He's looked fairly strong, but far from MVP/MMA/Nestea/DRG status. HerO? He's not even out of Code A, and overall has a pretty bad record in Korea. MC is the best candidate in my opinion, but even he hasn't done all that much lately, and has certainly fallen from being up there with MVP and Nestea in terms of results.



Like I said, my point is not that Terran is the weakest race. And your post is extremely biased. Seriously just because there is only 1 Protoss in the Top 15 means that Protoss is evidently the weakest race? Or maybe Zerg and Terran players are just better, this is such an incredibly small player pool (15 people) there is no statistical evidence at all because individual skill could very well be the main factor when limiting the scope to just 15 people.

You are incredibly bias and actually wasting my time now, statistically Protoss isn't the weakest race, which is what I was getting at, intelligent people will get the point, others won't.

And you are also ignoring the last 2 patches, who cares about the entire year when ,in the last 2 patches, Terran got nerfed and Protoss got buffed, the game changed so drastically it is absolutely irrelevant what happened before that.


I'm okay with you thinking that I'm wasting your time, because I'm getting kind of tired of this as well. However, I will make one last point: The fact that you don't think the rest of the year matters makes your implication that I'm unintelligent terribly ironic. There's more to balance than simply how a race is currently doing. Races are designed differently - some better, some worse than others, and I'm pretty sure most agree that Terran is the best designed race, in its versatility and modularity. There's a reason Blizzard took so long to nerf the 1-1-1 all-in, and that's because Terran is so well designed that it was difficult for them to figure out what to nerf. The strength of the 1-1-1 all-in wasn't due to a single unit - it was due to how incredibly well all the units worked together - hence, good design, and that's just one example. Throughout the year, Terran has been subjected to plenty of nerfs, yet only now Terran has finally been brought down, and that's ignoring the fact that statistics will be skewed immediately after a nerf because players haven't had much time to figure other things out yet. Why did it take this long for Terran to be brought down? Simple: It's so well designed. And while good design is certainly laudable on behalf of the developers, it's not good for balance when one race is so well designed compared to the other two.

You can try to make the argument that the past is irrelevant, but it isn't. At the core of each race is a design, and that design dictates how the metagame will shift. A badly designed race will flounder when its core strategies are figured out/nerfed and will have a difficult time bouncing back, while a well designed race will always find more options. Design is absolutely paramount in considering the big picture of balance, and hopefully HotS will fix some big design problems present in the game overall.


I'm totally fine with that statement. But that just isn't what you originally said, if you had said this in your first post there would have been no need for an argument. You basically just said something completely different to what you originally said. Let me remind you "protoss is statistically the weakest race" - which is wrong.

To me it seems like you just changed your argument, after realizing that your actual statement was simply wrong.

I agree that terran is the best designed race, I also agree that there will probably be more nerfs to terran in the future simply because Terran seems to be the least developed race in terms of strategies (there might be some good builds that incorporate Ravens or other units that are rarely used). But I just disagree with the statement that protoss is currently the weakest race, which is what you originally said.
HolyArrow
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7116 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-27 09:26:43
December 27 2011 09:24 GMT
#179
On December 27 2011 18:18 doko100 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 27 2011 18:12 HolyArrow wrote:
On December 27 2011 17:57 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 17:53 HolyArrow wrote:
On December 27 2011 17:30 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 17:25 HolyArrow wrote:
On December 27 2011 17:21 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 17:20 HolyArrow wrote:
On December 27 2011 17:09 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 16:51 HolyArrow wrote:
[quote]

Heh. Obviously, you'll call any sort of mathematical/statistical measure inaccurate if it goes against your own biases. It's natural, but try to remember that in the end, these type of player scoring systems are completely objective. Maybe a few inaccuracies here and there, but no system is perfect, and just because you nitpick at small imperfections such as Deezer being placed above WhiteRa/BoxeR doesn't mean that the system is completely and utterly devoid of any meaning or accuracy.



Do you really think that Deezer thing is the only inaccuracy on TLPD? That was just one example, there are hundreds of players that nobody even knows and that are not top level that have an insanely high ELO.

Seiplo, Verdi, Vortix, roof, Edge, Sungpa, iceice, DemonShip, Unix, daisuki, Pegasus, Ninkum, Bubbles, Suppy, Outside, Mafia, Mihai, Meyera, Targa... just to name a few and each and everyone of them has a ELO higher than 2100.

And not a single on of these players is anywhere close to the top level, even at foreign standards. Now please keep defending TLPD, but I'm sure that even the programmers of TLPD are aware that it is really inaccurate.

And I'm not disrespecting anyone here, just stating some facts. TLPD is extremely random, it has no statistical meaning.

So please don't call me nitpicky when there is actually hundreds of examples that prove how inaccurate TLPD is.


Check out my edit. I will say again: It's not good for player-to-player comparisons, but it's good for indicating trends. Furthermore, plenty of trends in the GSL support the general trend TLPD is displaying: That Protoss is weaker at the top level. Seriously, just look at how many Protosses have been in the finals/semifinals of Code S or Code A compared to Terrans. Surely, you can't deny that the first Protoss player on TLPD in Korea is all the way down at the 15th spot is a mere coincidence, a product of the "extreme randomness" that you speak of.


check out my edit then. oh wait you will just ignore that because it shows terran as the weakest race in november. herp derp TLPD indicates how balanced the game is, eh? Buff terran then.... I guess?


The problem here is that we're simultaneously editing stuff and thus are missing each other's edits, so don't try to use that as an excuse to accuse me of ignoring evidence.


Nice cop-out. So you are just ignoring the fact that TLPD shows terran as the statistically weakest race in November (after the last 2 patches in which Terran got nerfed and Protoss got buffed). According to you that proves that Terran is the weakest race, because TLPD = statistical evidence for imbalance..

edit: Then how does the argument that TvP is terran favored make any sense at all, even statistically it's protoss favored (after the last 2 patches) and how does your argument of protoss being the weakest race make any sense when TLPD (what you base your argument on) shows Terran as the weakest race? Contradiction much?

And I love how you called me stubborn when your post is actually one big contradiction that doesn't even make sense, yes I'm stubborn because other people don't know what they are talking about.... ouch.


In response to your edit: There are quite a few things wrong with your logic, and it's pretty clear to me that all you are doing is exaggerating certain things about my points to misrepresent them, and/or are willfully misinterpreting them because it's convenient for you to make my points look silly, though they are certainly not. First of all, you assume that just because the TLPD for November alone finally has Terran a mere 1% below Protoss and Zerg in overall winrate that Terran is now the weakest race. However, this would be a very limited scope of how things are, and, if you look at the big picture, the Protoss line is still well below both the Terran and Zerg lines, while the Terran line has finally stopped being the top line for the first time in the entire year. Only time will tell as to how the big picture will change, but, right now, Terran is a mere 1% below Zerg and Protoss, which I'm sure anyone would agree is pretty negligible.

Secondly, Terran being 1% below Zerg/Protoss in overall winrate is negligible; the first Protoss in the Korean ELO being at rank 15 is not. If you have a relatively small pool of players (compared to an international view of tons of different games) and none of the top 14 are Protoss, then I think it clearly shows that the best Protoss players are clearly having trouble competing with the very best of the other races. This also shows in the general popular perception of respective heroes of each race. Terran has very clear heros, such as MVP and MMA. Zerg as well, with Nestea, DRG, and Leenock. But, in the Korean scene, what does Protoss have? Oz? He's looked fairly strong, but far from MVP/MMA/Nestea/DRG status. HerO? He's not even out of Code A, and overall has a pretty bad record in Korea. MC is the best candidate in my opinion, but even he hasn't done all that much lately, and has certainly fallen from being up there with MVP and Nestea in terms of results.



Like I said, my point is not that Terran is the weakest race. And your post is extremely biased. Seriously just because there is only 1 Protoss in the Top 15 means that Protoss is evidently the weakest race? Or maybe Zerg and Terran players are just better, this is such an incredibly small player pool (15 people) there is no statistical evidence at all because individual skill could very well be the main factor when limiting the scope to just 15 people.

You are incredibly bias and actually wasting my time now, statistically Protoss isn't the weakest race, which is what I was getting at, intelligent people will get the point, others won't.

And you are also ignoring the last 2 patches, who cares about the entire year when ,in the last 2 patches, Terran got nerfed and Protoss got buffed, the game changed so drastically it is absolutely irrelevant what happened before that.


I'm okay with you thinking that I'm wasting your time, because I'm getting kind of tired of this as well. However, I will make one last point: The fact that you don't think the rest of the year matters makes your implication that I'm unintelligent terribly ironic. There's more to balance than simply how a race is currently doing. Races are designed differently - some better, some worse than others, and I'm pretty sure most agree that Terran is the best designed race, in its versatility and modularity. There's a reason Blizzard took so long to nerf the 1-1-1 all-in, and that's because Terran is so well designed that it was difficult for them to figure out what to nerf. The strength of the 1-1-1 all-in wasn't due to a single unit - it was due to how incredibly well all the units worked together - hence, good design, and that's just one example. Throughout the year, Terran has been subjected to plenty of nerfs, yet only now Terran has finally been brought down, and that's ignoring the fact that statistics will be skewed immediately after a nerf because players haven't had much time to figure other things out yet. Why did it take this long for Terran to be brought down? Simple: It's so well designed. And while good design is certainly laudable on behalf of the developers, it's not good for balance when one race is so well designed compared to the other two.

You can try to make the argument that the past is irrelevant, but it isn't. At the core of each race is a design, and that design dictates how the metagame will shift. A badly designed race will flounder when its core strategies are figured out/nerfed and will have a difficult time bouncing back, while a well designed race will always find more options. Design is absolutely paramount in considering the big picture of balance, and hopefully HotS will fix some big design problems present in the game overall.


I'm totally fine with that statement. But that just isn't what you originally said, if you had said this in your first post there would have been no need for an argument. You basically just said something completely different to what you originally said. Let me remind you "protoss is statistically the weakest race" - which is wrong.

To me it seems like you just changed your argument, after realizing that your actual statement was simply wrong.


When was "Protoss is statistically the weakest race" my argument? I was merely taking issue with how people will discredit objective evidence when it's inconvenient in my original post. But, I do admit that one thing led to another, and I began arguing that Protoss is statistically the weakest race. However, my final point indeed supports that argument, because that point was made to argue that the past does matter. If the past does matter, then the it's clear that the Red, Blue, and Green lines do matter in the overall winrate graph, and if those do matter, the point still stands that the Protoss line is well below the Zerg and Terran lines.

Also, to respond to your edit, "Statistically weakest" and "Currently weakest" are two different things. I agree that Protoss isn't at all the currently weakest race. But, "statistically weakest" is a different, more ambiguous term, so we have to figure out and agree upon on what "statistically weakest" means to avoid misunderstandings.
ChaosTerran
Profile Joined August 2011
Austria844 Posts
December 27 2011 09:26 GMT
#180
On December 27 2011 18:24 HolyArrow wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 27 2011 18:18 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 18:12 HolyArrow wrote:
On December 27 2011 17:57 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 17:53 HolyArrow wrote:
On December 27 2011 17:30 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 17:25 HolyArrow wrote:
On December 27 2011 17:21 doko100 wrote:
On December 27 2011 17:20 HolyArrow wrote:
On December 27 2011 17:09 doko100 wrote:
[quote]


Do you really think that Deezer thing is the only inaccuracy on TLPD? That was just one example, there are hundreds of players that nobody even knows and that are not top level that have an insanely high ELO.

Seiplo, Verdi, Vortix, roof, Edge, Sungpa, iceice, DemonShip, Unix, daisuki, Pegasus, Ninkum, Bubbles, Suppy, Outside, Mafia, Mihai, Meyera, Targa... just to name a few and each and everyone of them has a ELO higher than 2100.

And not a single on of these players is anywhere close to the top level, even at foreign standards. Now please keep defending TLPD, but I'm sure that even the programmers of TLPD are aware that it is really inaccurate.

And I'm not disrespecting anyone here, just stating some facts. TLPD is extremely random, it has no statistical meaning.

So please don't call me nitpicky when there is actually hundreds of examples that prove how inaccurate TLPD is.


Check out my edit. I will say again: It's not good for player-to-player comparisons, but it's good for indicating trends. Furthermore, plenty of trends in the GSL support the general trend TLPD is displaying: That Protoss is weaker at the top level. Seriously, just look at how many Protosses have been in the finals/semifinals of Code S or Code A compared to Terrans. Surely, you can't deny that the first Protoss player on TLPD in Korea is all the way down at the 15th spot is a mere coincidence, a product of the "extreme randomness" that you speak of.


check out my edit then. oh wait you will just ignore that because it shows terran as the weakest race in november. herp derp TLPD indicates how balanced the game is, eh? Buff terran then.... I guess?


The problem here is that we're simultaneously editing stuff and thus are missing each other's edits, so don't try to use that as an excuse to accuse me of ignoring evidence.


Nice cop-out. So you are just ignoring the fact that TLPD shows terran as the statistically weakest race in November (after the last 2 patches in which Terran got nerfed and Protoss got buffed). According to you that proves that Terran is the weakest race, because TLPD = statistical evidence for imbalance..

edit: Then how does the argument that TvP is terran favored make any sense at all, even statistically it's protoss favored (after the last 2 patches) and how does your argument of protoss being the weakest race make any sense when TLPD (what you base your argument on) shows Terran as the weakest race? Contradiction much?

And I love how you called me stubborn when your post is actually one big contradiction that doesn't even make sense, yes I'm stubborn because other people don't know what they are talking about.... ouch.


In response to your edit: There are quite a few things wrong with your logic, and it's pretty clear to me that all you are doing is exaggerating certain things about my points to misrepresent them, and/or are willfully misinterpreting them because it's convenient for you to make my points look silly, though they are certainly not. First of all, you assume that just because the TLPD for November alone finally has Terran a mere 1% below Protoss and Zerg in overall winrate that Terran is now the weakest race. However, this would be a very limited scope of how things are, and, if you look at the big picture, the Protoss line is still well below both the Terran and Zerg lines, while the Terran line has finally stopped being the top line for the first time in the entire year. Only time will tell as to how the big picture will change, but, right now, Terran is a mere 1% below Zerg and Protoss, which I'm sure anyone would agree is pretty negligible.

Secondly, Terran being 1% below Zerg/Protoss in overall winrate is negligible; the first Protoss in the Korean ELO being at rank 15 is not. If you have a relatively small pool of players (compared to an international view of tons of different games) and none of the top 14 are Protoss, then I think it clearly shows that the best Protoss players are clearly having trouble competing with the very best of the other races. This also shows in the general popular perception of respective heroes of each race. Terran has very clear heros, such as MVP and MMA. Zerg as well, with Nestea, DRG, and Leenock. But, in the Korean scene, what does Protoss have? Oz? He's looked fairly strong, but far from MVP/MMA/Nestea/DRG status. HerO? He's not even out of Code A, and overall has a pretty bad record in Korea. MC is the best candidate in my opinion, but even he hasn't done all that much lately, and has certainly fallen from being up there with MVP and Nestea in terms of results.



Like I said, my point is not that Terran is the weakest race. And your post is extremely biased. Seriously just because there is only 1 Protoss in the Top 15 means that Protoss is evidently the weakest race? Or maybe Zerg and Terran players are just better, this is such an incredibly small player pool (15 people) there is no statistical evidence at all because individual skill could very well be the main factor when limiting the scope to just 15 people.

You are incredibly bias and actually wasting my time now, statistically Protoss isn't the weakest race, which is what I was getting at, intelligent people will get the point, others won't.

And you are also ignoring the last 2 patches, who cares about the entire year when ,in the last 2 patches, Terran got nerfed and Protoss got buffed, the game changed so drastically it is absolutely irrelevant what happened before that.


I'm okay with you thinking that I'm wasting your time, because I'm getting kind of tired of this as well. However, I will make one last point: The fact that you don't think the rest of the year matters makes your implication that I'm unintelligent terribly ironic. There's more to balance than simply how a race is currently doing. Races are designed differently - some better, some worse than others, and I'm pretty sure most agree that Terran is the best designed race, in its versatility and modularity. There's a reason Blizzard took so long to nerf the 1-1-1 all-in, and that's because Terran is so well designed that it was difficult for them to figure out what to nerf. The strength of the 1-1-1 all-in wasn't due to a single unit - it was due to how incredibly well all the units worked together - hence, good design, and that's just one example. Throughout the year, Terran has been subjected to plenty of nerfs, yet only now Terran has finally been brought down, and that's ignoring the fact that statistics will be skewed immediately after a nerf because players haven't had much time to figure other things out yet. Why did it take this long for Terran to be brought down? Simple: It's so well designed. And while good design is certainly laudable on behalf of the developers, it's not good for balance when one race is so well designed compared to the other two.

You can try to make the argument that the past is irrelevant, but it isn't. At the core of each race is a design, and that design dictates how the metagame will shift. A badly designed race will flounder when its core strategies are figured out/nerfed and will have a difficult time bouncing back, while a well designed race will always find more options. Design is absolutely paramount in considering the big picture of balance, and hopefully HotS will fix some big design problems present in the game overall.


I'm totally fine with that statement. But that just isn't what you originally said, if you had said this in your first post there would have been no need for an argument. You basically just said something completely different to what you originally said. Let me remind you "protoss is statistically the weakest race" - which is wrong.

To me it seems like you just changed your argument, after realizing that your actual statement was simply wrong.


When was "Protoss is statistically the weakest race" my argument? I was merely taking issue with how people will discredit objective evidence when it's inconvenient in my original post. But, I do admit that one thing led to another, and I began arguing that Protoss is statistically the weakest race. However, my final point indeed supports that argument, because that point was made to argue that the past does matter. If the past does matter, then the it's clear that the Red, Blue, and Green lines do matter in the overall winrate graph, and if those do matter, the point still stands that the Protoss line is well below the Zerg and Terran lines.



No, no, the past is irrelevant in terms of current balance (which is what we were originally talking about) it is only relevant in terms of design problems which then lead to balance problems. You were already right with what you said at one point, why make the same mistake again and change your argument into something that is flatout wrong.
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