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On March 24 2012 00:24 PeggyHill wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 22:26 Khaldor wrote:On March 23 2012 22:11 PeggyHill wrote:
Every GSL player has an understanding of the game far beyond you, you need to respect that. You can point out that he could be doing something different, but not that he is making a huge blunder etc. And this is were you are completely wrong. Players make mistakes and one of the things that we (casters) have to do is point them out. Like it or not. I talk to players all the time after their matches, much more often than you I'd assume, and even though I obviously make mistakes in my judgement players admit to mistakes they made a lot more often than you would think. The level of play in the GSL is amazing and very often those mistakes that we see occur because they were forced by the opponent they are facing. But they make mistakes nonetheless and neither me, nor Wolf or colleagues like MrBitter will stop pointing them out only because you want to maintain the illusion that players are flawless beings. Edit @Neustedt: glad to hear that, thank you very much  Argh thats not what I meant mate. I'm not talking about a mistake like no detection vs DT, I'm talking 'mistakes' that are come more from a players style, like expansion timings, army compositions. Of course the players make mistakes all game long, even at the highest level. It's just not nice to listen to you rail on about them, acting like you know the game better than they do, is all I meant. It makes you sound like a know-it-all, which I am sure you are not. This guy is saying what I am saying: Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 00:16 PrinceXizor wrote:
Leave your personal strategic opinions out of the cast. When a player goes for ultralisks on a congested map, don't say you don't like ultralisks and don't think it will work. Say that the player is going to have to move his army perfectly to take advantage of his bulky units. Creating more tension = good, shitting on peoples play = bad.
And this guy again thinks the same way as me: Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 22:43 Doodsmack wrote:
In sum I think you are just to quick to make sweeping assertions about players' decisions. Your level of game knowledge is just not high enough to justify your criticisms being so frequent. You have to realize that if so many people are pointing this out in this thread there must be a reason for it. If I have time I'll go back through some of the up and down matches and cite specific examples of what I'm talking about.
More examples from only the last two pages: Show nested quote +On March 17 2012 23:07 FoFo wrote:
i like you're casting but i think you should be more careful of bashing the players. Sometimes they make decisions for not so obvious reasons and it makes the caster (in some cases, you) look a little foolish. keep in mind the gamers don't have total map vision at all times and are under a lot of stress...
Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 03:02 fighter2_40 wrote:
I like your enthusiasm but what turns me off the most is when you critique the players without giving any explanation for why you don't like what they're doing. It sounds like you're some "arbiter" just giving out judgements all over the place, judgements that don't always coincide with my experience playing starcraft. If you are going to be making controversial claims about a player's play and why it's bad, back it up with some analysis on why it's bad/good.
Basically it comes down to your game knowledge not being sufficient enough to be that kind of caster. I think you easily know the game well enough to cast, but you should be a play-by-play guy. If you do offer your opinions be more humble. Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 23:34 Khaldor wrote:
The decision to call players "the zerg/protoss/terran" is a conscious one and something I will not change. I do it when I have repeated the name of the player several times in a row before and in order to not repeat it AGAIN I sometimes use the race of the player or his nationality (obvsiouly not in a kor vs. kor game) instead. I love it when commentators call players 'the terran/toss etc.'. I like your casting, keep up the good work. Also one thing I would like to see you do is watch some old BW vods, I think this is your one weakness, a lack of knowledge of BW. This is moletraps strength, hes been around since BW.
This ^ This ^ This ^ This ^ This ^
Read this once Khaldor, twice, maybe even hopefully for a third time with hopes that you may see that these things that people point out are ruining the GSL code A for many of us.
I let a couple friends, who have recently heard about starcraft 2, watch a day of code A when Khaldor was casting and they were instantly turned off. Even saying things like, "If this caster knows more than the player, why isn't he the one playing?" or "Why is he talking so much shit?" And this, mind you, came from people who were just hearing about esports, the average joe, the mainstream. I hate to say it but they were turned off with what they saw and laughed at the notion of eSports being like MMA is 10 years from now, and all because of the cast.
They called it a kid's game and all because they couldn't look past the unprofessional casting to see the grace with which the players played.
I'm sorry man, but I hate to tell you that no one wants to hear what you would do, or what you think should have happened. Let wolf analyse while you play-by-play. Even Moletrap (I hate saying this) does a somewhat better job at analysis than you, again you should focus on your play-by-play casting. At least until you reach master's level where you understand what it feels like to make those little "mistakes" and learn to quit being Mr.Judge Judy McJudgerson.
Again, all in constructive criticism form. It's getting to be somewhat unbearable these days... Poor wolf.
As for me, can't wait for Code S.
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On March 24 2012 17:53 stkblee wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 17:14 dAPhREAk wrote:
watched GSTL tonight with you and moletrap. you guys need to share the show. its monologue after monologue with you guys constantly fighting over who gets to talk.
edit: moletrap doesnt have a feedback thread so i couldnt tell him. also, i have enjoyed your casting since i first heard it while you were in europe. keep up the good work. I agree. Maybe its just me, but I also find that khaldor is sort of 'bashing' moletrap, sometimes interrupting in a sort of sardonic voice. Not that I support moletrap, but I believe at least in the cast there should be a more cooperative than competitive spirit.
Totally agree. It's really off putting. I don't want to dislike Khaldor because his casting is generally good, but it's difficult when he often interrupts for no reason. It's understandable to interrupt if for e.g. Moletrap is telling an unrelated story and Khaldor interupts to say 'OMG he's 6 pooling', but not if Moletrap is telling an unrelated story inbetween games or something. It just makes him look like a dbag who doesn't give a shit about what Moletrap has to say.
I don't know if those two don't get along in real life or what, but they really need to work on getting some synergy going between them.
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I like Khaldor cuz he is the only one that looks like a Boss in the suit of all the GOMTV casters.
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On March 24 2012 18:29 `dunedain wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 00:24 PeggyHill wrote:On March 23 2012 22:26 Khaldor wrote:On March 23 2012 22:11 PeggyHill wrote:
Every GSL player has an understanding of the game far beyond you, you need to respect that. You can point out that he could be doing something different, but not that he is making a huge blunder etc. And this is were you are completely wrong. Players make mistakes and one of the things that we (casters) have to do is point them out. Like it or not. I talk to players all the time after their matches, much more often than you I'd assume, and even though I obviously make mistakes in my judgement players admit to mistakes they made a lot more often than you would think. The level of play in the GSL is amazing and very often those mistakes that we see occur because they were forced by the opponent they are facing. But they make mistakes nonetheless and neither me, nor Wolf or colleagues like MrBitter will stop pointing them out only because you want to maintain the illusion that players are flawless beings. Edit @Neustedt: glad to hear that, thank you very much Argh thats not what I meant mate. I'm not talking about a mistake like no detection vs DT, I'm talking 'mistakes' that are come more from a players style, like expansion timings, army compositions. Of course the players make mistakes all game long, even at the highest level. It's just not nice to listen to you rail on about them, acting like you know the game better than they do, is all I meant. It makes you sound like a know-it-all, which I am sure you are not. This guy is saying what I am saying: On March 24 2012 00:16 PrinceXizor wrote:
Leave your personal strategic opinions out of the cast. When a player goes for ultralisks on a congested map, don't say you don't like ultralisks and don't think it will work. Say that the player is going to have to move his army perfectly to take advantage of his bulky units. Creating more tension = good, shitting on peoples play = bad.
And this guy again thinks the same way as me: On March 23 2012 22:43 Doodsmack wrote:
In sum I think you are just to quick to make sweeping assertions about players' decisions. Your level of game knowledge is just not high enough to justify your criticisms being so frequent. You have to realize that if so many people are pointing this out in this thread there must be a reason for it. If I have time I'll go back through some of the up and down matches and cite specific examples of what I'm talking about.
More examples from only the last two pages: On March 17 2012 23:07 FoFo wrote:
i like you're casting but i think you should be more careful of bashing the players. Sometimes they make decisions for not so obvious reasons and it makes the caster (in some cases, you) look a little foolish. keep in mind the gamers don't have total map vision at all times and are under a lot of stress...
On March 14 2012 03:02 fighter2_40 wrote:
I like your enthusiasm but what turns me off the most is when you critique the players without giving any explanation for why you don't like what they're doing. It sounds like you're some "arbiter" just giving out judgements all over the place, judgements that don't always coincide with my experience playing starcraft. If you are going to be making controversial claims about a player's play and why it's bad, back it up with some analysis on why it's bad/good.
Basically it comes down to your game knowledge not being sufficient enough to be that kind of caster. I think you easily know the game well enough to cast, but you should be a play-by-play guy. If you do offer your opinions be more humble. On March 23 2012 23:34 Khaldor wrote:
The decision to call players "the zerg/protoss/terran" is a conscious one and something I will not change. I do it when I have repeated the name of the player several times in a row before and in order to not repeat it AGAIN I sometimes use the race of the player or his nationality (obvsiouly not in a kor vs. kor game) instead. I love it when commentators call players 'the terran/toss etc.'. I like your casting, keep up the good work. Also one thing I would like to see you do is watch some old BW vods, I think this is your one weakness, a lack of knowledge of BW. This is moletraps strength, hes been around since BW. This ^ This ^ This ^ This ^ This ^ Read this once Khaldor, twice, maybe even hopefully for a third time with hopes that you may see that these things that people point out are ruining the GSL code A for many of us. I let a couple friends, who have recently heard about starcraft 2, watch a day of code A when Khaldor was casting and they were instantly turned off. Even saying things like, "If this caster knows more than the player, why isn't he the one playing?" or "Why is he talking so much shit?" And this, mind you, came from people who were just hearing about esports, the average joe, the mainstream. I hate to say it but they were turned off with what they saw and laughed at the notion of eSports being like MMA is 10 years from now, and all because of the cast. They called it a kid's game and all because they couldn't look past the unprofessional casting to see the grace with which the players played. I'm sorry man, but I hate to tell you that no one wants to hear what you would do, or what you think should have happened. Let wolf analyse while you play-by-play. Even Moletrap (I hate saying this) does a somewhat better job at analysis than you, again you should focus on your play-by-play casting. At least until you reach master's level where you understand what it feels like to make those little "mistakes" and learn to quit being Mr.Judge Judy McJudgerson. Again, all in constructive criticism form. It's getting to be somewhat unbearable these days... Poor wolf. As for me, can't wait for Code S.
i think the problem is that wolf is the only code a caster with enough game knowledge to justify judgement about the desicion making of players, but when we have khaldor + moletrap, then by your logic, there shouldn't be judgement at all. (i do agree moletrap knows a slightly bit more, but still not enough). but that would be a pretty dull casting, don't you think? what we need is another analysis guy so gom dont have to pair moletrap and khaldor together. (hope the incontrol thing works out  )
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On December 21 2011 01:43 Khaldor wrote:
Hey TL,
Unfortunately the problem with the thread that has been used for feedback in the past was not created by me. Therefore I can not edit the opening posts which limits my options in regards to answering questions or suggestions.
In the future I would like to use this thread to respond to peoples suggestion, feedback and opinion about my casts. I will try to edit the OP every now and then so that topics that have been adressed frequently will be visible on the first page.
@Mods: I know that there is already a thread about feedback regarding my casts. For the reasons stated above I would ask you though to not close this thread. It is really hard to respond to feedback properly without having the OP to edit :/
Khaldor: this is what you posted in the OP. You posted the OP in december 2011. It is now the end of March and there has been not one edit of the OP.
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On March 24 2012 20:36 E1essar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 01:43 Khaldor wrote:
Hey TL,
Unfortunately the problem with the thread that has been used for feedback in the past was not created by me. Therefore I can not edit the opening posts which limits my options in regards to answering questions or suggestions.
In the future I would like to use this thread to respond to peoples suggestion, feedback and opinion about my casts. I will try to edit the OP every now and then so that topics that have been adressed frequently will be visible on the first page.
@Mods: I know that there is already a thread about feedback regarding my casts. For the reasons stated above I would ask you though to not close this thread. It is really hard to respond to feedback properly without having the OP to edit :/ Khaldor: this is what you posted in the OP. You posted the OP in december 2011. It is now the end of March and there has been not one edit of the OP.
Hes obviously reading the thread tho as he has been trying to cut down his negative casting in the last few GSTL VODs i watched.
I understand that many people here are pissed because they have to pay for GSL and dont get the best casters (tastosis) every time but please also understand that they cant cast every single game every single day.
Nowadays i watch the korean VODs to improve on my korean skills and only watch the interviews in english.
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On March 24 2012 00:24 PeggyHill wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 22:26 Khaldor wrote:On March 23 2012 22:11 PeggyHill wrote:
Every GSL player has an understanding of the game far beyond you, you need to respect that. You can point out that he could be doing something different, but not that he is making a huge blunder etc. And this is were you are completely wrong. Players make mistakes and one of the things that we (casters) have to do is point them out. Like it or not. I talk to players all the time after their matches, much more often than you I'd assume, and even though I obviously make mistakes in my judgement players admit to mistakes they made a lot more often than you would think. The level of play in the GSL is amazing and very often those mistakes that we see occur because they were forced by the opponent they are facing. But they make mistakes nonetheless and neither me, nor Wolf or colleagues like MrBitter will stop pointing them out only because you want to maintain the illusion that players are flawless beings. Edit @Neustedt: glad to hear that, thank you very much Argh thats not what I meant mate. I'm not talking about a mistake like no detection vs DT, I'm talking 'mistakes' that are come more from a players style, like expansion timings, army compositions. Of course the players make mistakes all game long, even at the highest level. It's just not nice to listen to you rail on about them, acting like you know the game better than they do, is all I meant. It makes you sound like a know-it-all, which I am sure you are not. This guy is saying what I am saying: Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 00:16 PrinceXizor wrote:
Leave your personal strategic opinions out of the cast. When a player goes for ultralisks on a congested map, don't say you don't like ultralisks and don't think it will work. Say that the player is going to have to move his army perfectly to take advantage of his bulky units. Creating more tension = good, shitting on peoples play = bad.
And this guy again thinks the same way as me: Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 22:43 Doodsmack wrote:
In sum I think you are just to quick to make sweeping assertions about players' decisions. Your level of game knowledge is just not high enough to justify your criticisms being so frequent. You have to realize that if so many people are pointing this out in this thread there must be a reason for it. If I have time I'll go back through some of the up and down matches and cite specific examples of what I'm talking about.
More examples from only the last two pages: Show nested quote +On March 17 2012 23:07 FoFo wrote:
i like you're casting but i think you should be more careful of bashing the players. Sometimes they make decisions for not so obvious reasons and it makes the caster (in some cases, you) look a little foolish. keep in mind the gamers don't have total map vision at all times and are under a lot of stress...
Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 03:02 fighter2_40 wrote:
I like your enthusiasm but what turns me off the most is when you critique the players without giving any explanation for why you don't like what they're doing. It sounds like you're some "arbiter" just giving out judgements all over the place, judgements that don't always coincide with my experience playing starcraft. If you are going to be making controversial claims about a player's play and why it's bad, back it up with some analysis on why it's bad/good.
Basically it comes down to your game knowledge not being sufficient enough to be that kind of caster. I think you easily know the game well enough to cast, but you should be a play-by-play guy. If you do offer your opinions be more humble. Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 23:34 Khaldor wrote:
The decision to call players "the zerg/protoss/terran" is a conscious one and something I will not change. I do it when I have repeated the name of the player several times in a row before and in order to not repeat it AGAIN I sometimes use the race of the player or his nationality (obvsiouly not in a kor vs. kor game) instead. I love it when commentators call players 'the terran/toss etc.'. I like your casting, keep up the good work. Also one thing I would like to see you do is watch some old BW vods, I think this is your one weakness, a lack of knowledge of BW. This is moletraps strength, hes been around since BW.
I agree with what you mentioned
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I hate it how pretty much every single commentator except mb Artosis often stop watching what's going on while commentating.
How many times did I hear totaly wrong informations about how many scv/probes were killed by an harass, I'm pretty sure it's over half the time.
About Khaldor specifically, he tends to be too judgemental on players, criticize them way too fast rather than trying to understand why they did this or that...
You can't keep labeling as "error" everything you do not understand... at least try to get the idea there was behind.
Plus as someone who is not even on Master league (and most likely below 50% winrate if that's the case), you shouldn't be abilitate to tell some Korean PGMers that they're using the "wrong" strategy... You can tell you don't understand why they're doing that and giving your two cents on the case, that's it.
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he is doing awesome job imo 
really nice casting
keep it up !!!
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Hi Khaldor,
I've generally enjoyed your casting and appreciate the effort you put into your casts and the content you put out.
My feedback for you:
I think it's wrong to criticise a player and his decisions in the moment after he's made the decisive move to win a best of 3.
I do think that player criticism is a valid part of what you do, but I think there is a time and place for that, and right after they've made a winning move isn't that time. As a fan of the player in question, it cheapens the achievement of his win, takes away some of that good feeling, and overall ends the series on a down note as the focus is on criticising the winning player, and not on the fact that it means he's through to the winners match, etc, etc.
Anyway, other than that, enjoy your casting in general.
Cheers
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I disagree with what these others are saying.
"He's switching to thors, this is a bad move by MMA." is perfectly valid.
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i love the critism against players cause to be honest its often so true, tastosis do the same and everyone is "oh yes" so ... sure he is sometimes wrong but who isnt ? i dont want a machine
also people write "no personal oppinion" .... tastosis do call people worst players (and sometimes not as joke!) and its OK!
i mean to be true, i dont want a machine, i want someone with oppinions i want listen to them and then i want think "oh yes, or damn hes talking shit haha" but even the 2nd is FINE cause i like to be not always in same oppinion with the caster
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The problem with the wolfdor cast is not they criticize more than tastosis (it's the same). Is that they don't praise when the players are doing good things, like tastosis do.
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I like how people say casters have a worse understanding of the game, guess they actually don't play the game in the slightest, having complete vision is a huge advantage for analyzing, unimportant how good a player is, this is better.
And if you get friends to watch code A and get comments like this about the caster dunedain, the next time they watch some sport and the commentator points out a mistake, tell them exactly the same ;o and show you have no interest in the game, like they did.
But I agree that you don't have to point out macro or micro mistakes if the player is clearly winning the game, everyone does it, its easier, no need for more effort, so its actually good.
But saying casters should play if they understand the game so well is annoying, they are just better at analyzing which is something completely different. Thats why you analyze your replay in both visions, not just your own.
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I feel like Khaldors casting is like casting alone and waiting for the cocaster to stop talking until he can say something. Try to be team, ask the other one what he thinks of player decisions etc...
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On March 27 2012 21:23 StarscreamG1 wrote:
The problem with the wolfdor cast is not they criticize more than tastosis (it's the same). Is that they don't praise when the players are doing good things, like tastosis do.
That's complete bullshit. Maybe you should listen a little bit more carefully next time. We always point out when a player is doing extremely well in the game.
On March 27 2012 21:41 graNite wrote:
I feel like Khaldors casting is like casting alone and waiting for the cocaster to stop talking until he can say something. Try to be team, ask the other one what he thinks of player decisions etc...
Also not true. Do you even listen to us? Oo We always complement each others points. This might not be true in every cast or every situation but stating we would not work together as a team is just wrong. Actually Wolf and I are getting better and better at this now that we've been casting together more frequently.
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Also give credit when you use a tip while casting!!
:D
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You did a great job filling in for Tastosis. I especially liked the times you both got real hyped up, since that's what I think is missing from your casting vs Tastosis.
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EPT
