EPTeSahara adds female player MaddeLisk! - Page 17
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Haydin
United States1481 Posts
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Mordiford
4448 Posts
On January 05 2012 16:39 Jusba wrote: I'm not really following you here. I am saying that women can be as good as men if they train JUST as much and I was against female only tournaments for that reason. I misread your post so thoroughly and was hasty in my response. I thought your post didn't make any sense because you seemed to be making the opposite argument, but I simply misread your concluding sentences, your post makes more sense now that I understand the stance that you were actually arguing. My apologies. | ||
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NeWeNiyaLord
Norway2474 Posts
On January 05 2012 18:14 MahE wrote: I think the point that people are trying to make is that: why does the gender of the player matter? Female players are being given a lot of attention because there are less of them. It doesn't make sense. Ofcourse the gender matter, its a fact that girl players are more rare. therefore we should all appreaciate that a girl has commited to playing sc2. and for ESPORTS to grow its a good thing to attract more girls. remember that there is alot more girls then boys. The more people, the harder it gets to get to the top. And when this sinks in to our heads. i'm sure that girls will practice harder for a chance at a team. but now, with almost no girls playing, the bar is low. it will get higher, but has to start somewhere. Also now she gets very good practice partners, so she will improve. it all comes down to how much she dedicates. but if she's read this thread i'm guessing she isnt feeling at top. so much hate | ||
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Pocky52
United States463 Posts
On January 05 2012 18:20 NeWeNiyaLord wrote: Ofcourse the gender matter, its a fact that girl players are more rare. therefore we should all appreaciate that a girl has commited to playing sc2. and for ESPORTS to grow its a good thing to attract more girls. remember that there is alot more girls then boys. The more people, the harder it gets to get to the top. And when this sinks in to our heads. i'm sure that girls will practice harder for a chance at a team. but now, with almost no girls playing, the bar is low. it will get higher, but has to start somewhere. Also now she gets very good practice partners, so she will improve. it all comes down to how much she dedicates. but if she's read this thread i'm guessing she isnt feeling at top. so much hate this  or at least hopefully this happens | ||
Falling
Canada11607 Posts
On January 05 2012 13:54 Mordiford wrote: See, this works with what I said earlier. If, like Josue you want to just go with the statement that, "Girls can't be as good as boys" then all this becomes totally fine. The issue I see is with people who think that acquisitions like this, and female only tournaments are a way of giving women a chance to complete with men in Starcraft. It seems counterproductive to give them hand-outs and segregated tournaments if your goal is to integrate them into the scene and have them compete at a high level. If you just think they're naturally worse, then it's a different story. You seem to be on a bit of caped crusade on this topic as I see you in almost every single one of these debates. What exactly is this issue? Is it just fairness? Girl gamers are being given more chances than guys? Or is it really an issue of being counterproductive that you are concerned that girl gamers' progress will be hindered by 'hand-outs and segregated tournaments.' If the first, then I suppose it could be considered 'unfair,' but I'm not convinced a tournament for girls created by girls is 'unfair.' Who are we to say what they can or cannot do? And if the second, should it not be up to the girl gamers to decide whether this 'injustice' is counterproductive for them. I see a great amount of concern on behalf of girls that this will be bad for gamer girls, that it will cap their skill, that drafting a girl instead of guy is terrible for the competitiveness of girl gamers. But I only hear it from more guys. Never once (that I can recall) has a girl gamer gone on a rant on how drafting this or that girl is bad for girls in general. Granted usernames can hide gender, but of the names I know they seem pretty supportive of the opportunities given. So is it really on their behalf that so much concern is given on how this will affect girls' competitive future? | ||
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Mordiford
4448 Posts
On January 05 2012 18:47 Falling wrote: You seem to be on a bit of caped crusade on this topic as I see you in almost every single one of these debates. What exactly is this issue? Is it just fairness? Girl gamers are being given more chances than guys? Or is it really an issue of being counterproductive that you are concerned that girl gamers' progress will be hindered by 'hand-outs and segregated tournaments.' If the first, then I suppose it could be considered 'unfair,' but I'm not convinced a tournament for girls created by girls is 'unfair.' Who are we to say what they can or cannot do? And if the second, should it not be up to the girl gamers to decide whether this 'injustice' is counterproductive for them. I see a great amount of concern on behalf of girls that this will be bad for gamer girls, that it will cap their skill, that drafting a girl instead of guy is terrible for the competitiveness of girl gamers. But I only hear it from more guys. Never once (that I can recall) has a girl gamer gone on a rant on how drafting this or that girl is bad for girls in general. Granted usernames can hide gender, but of the names I know they seem pretty supportive of the opportunities given. So is it really on their behalf that so much concern is given on how this will affect girls' competitive future? Not really a caped crusader. I just had a lengthy discussion when these issues were first being raised, with one of the people who ran some weekly women's cups. After that, I felt like I had reached an understanding of the issue as a whole and there was not much more to discuss. However, people have always come in with takes on the subject that do not make sense to me. "If women are capable of competing with men, then having restrictive tournaments is unfair" is what you're responding to. Your response is simply that you're not convinced that it's unfair. I don't see what convincing is necessary here. It's no different from having a "Black people only" restriction, or a "Men only restriction". Even if you can not tell the organizer what they can and cannot do, it's still unfair. There's really no argument to be had here, it's prejudicial and discriminatory to exclude a group of capable people from competing. Now, for smaller tournaments and community run cups I have no issue, people can try and establish whatever niche they want, or use small cups to look for fellow women, gays, ethnic groups in the scene if they want. As soon as this goes above a certain threshold, I feel it becomes problematic because quite simply, it's unnecessarily(assuming women and men are equally capable at playing video games) discriminatory. That is why it's unfair. As to your second point, there are a fair few women who have made remarks about women in the scene, whether it be negative attention they receive, positive attention they receive or specifically the topic of female only tournaments. Regardless of where the criticism comes from, it is still valid. I honestly don't have a problem with women being given some preferential treatment in regards to recruitment, they're a minority, a good female player can really garner some attention. The issue is giving them the wrong kind of attention, you don't need to be a woman to comment on the way they're being presented. Regardless, in this thread I was addressing the idea of having women around to compete in female only tournaments, and the impact of that, not affirmative action for women being recruited to teams. I haven't really wrapped my head around the latter and don't really know what to think about that yet, but if they can eventually perform up to par with their peers, I don't see the harm in giving them a chance. | ||
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Matkap
Spain627 Posts
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Squide
Sweden141 Posts
Maddelisk FIGHTING!! | ||
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Confuse
2238 Posts
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
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Venomsflame
United States613 Posts
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Zrana
United Kingdom698 Posts
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Serimek
France2274 Posts
The fact that someone actually do something is not a proof that it is fair or good to do so. | ||
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Bart331
59 Posts
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StoRm_res
Switzerland891 Posts
 All the best to her and eSahara | ||
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Yonnua
United Kingdom2331 Posts
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Mashmed
Sweden198 Posts
On January 05 2012 20:18 Yonnua wrote: The problem I see with this is that esahara openly admit that they only gave her the spot because she was a girl. They literally say that they went out looking for a female player, to hire just because they're a female player. As the scene is now I have nothing against eSahara's choice of going out of their way to get a female gamer. Since at this moment the scene is split into two scenes the female and the male. The quality and quantity of the female scene is obviously much lower than the male which would make it rather smart to get a female gamer. | ||
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KaiserJohan
Sweden1808 Posts
On January 05 2012 20:18 Yonnua wrote: The problem I see with this is that esahara openly admit that they only gave her the spot because she was a girl. They literally say that they went out looking for a female player, to hire just because they're a female player. Happens in IRL too, many companies say they are actively looking for more persons of the other gender, not necessarily those of better skill. IT is a good example, especially technical stuff. Everyone wants more females to even out the ratios, but I have yet to see a female who's equally good at it as the majority of males. Same thing about say child care, where you'll mostly find females working. | ||
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-Asmodeus-
Poland31 Posts
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Snake.69
Canada140 Posts
Men arent made of rock, and gamers who spend alot of time on the computer tend to be even weaker to female charms. What if multiple guys get the crush for her in the team, can put some tension, jealousy, etc and affect practice. Its none of my business or concern, but from personnal point of view, if that fine piece of woman was in my team, id be more worried about what she thinks about me than actually improving my game... | ||
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