edit: IF YOU DON'T READ THIS PART DON'T BOTHER REPLYING...... It seems that buki was already in GM and stayed in due to the system. As he can only be removed by inactivity and bonus pool accumulating, losing 130 games in a row doesn't demote the account from GM. I'm curious whether the lowered MMR will make it impossible to get back into GM next season, but either way the intentional losing is bannable.
He has defended himself saying he was just trolling by being a GM playing bronzies, which explains what happened, though still brings up concerns of abuse and some problems with the current system.
Original Post:
Today I looked at the NA Grandmaster's league list and noticed a player with a very unusually low win/loss ratio.
Two days ago this player who had a normal account playing lots of games suddenly starts losing...
A lot.
The players mBnBuki was losing to were in bronze and eventually the account's MMR was reset and no longer lost points for losing a game. The loss streak was 130 games total.
mBnBuki then went on a massive winning streak going 32-3 before being promoted to GM with the last loss...
Against a silver league player.
And here's a random picture from a local lan, featuring my friend ProfessorOak.
Everyone knows the GM system is broken in NA, has been all season. With a season reset in a short while, where hopefully Blizz will fix it, it won't matter.
Although it is funny to see exactly how broken it is.
Well knowing if he did abuse the ladder I would not be surprised if they banned him. Actually knowing blizzard, I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't anyway.
I don't quite get how this works though, I thought GM selection just took players within a certain MMR range of the best ? If he has silver level MMR this shouldn't quite work ?
I'm having trouble understanding how there can be so many screw up with a system that's relatively straightforward to program.
Wow thats sad, and weird, that it is so exploitable... I guess most people in GM really should be there so this isnt a massive problem, but still... wow.
I don't quite get how this works though, I thought GM selection just took players within a certain MMR range of the best ? If he has silver level MMR this shouldn't quite work ?
I'm having trouble understanding how there can be so many screw up with a system that's relatively straightforward to program.
MMR is completely independent from league, for all we know the other guy was doing the same.
I guess they should make sure anyone promoted to GM should be in Master first, but ladder is serious business.
The guy should be banned for throwing 130 games, not getting into GM league.
The division system is still bad and there's no reason a closed league (by number of spots) should even exist, especially if it flat out doesn't work and is exploitable like we see here.
GM should just be masters league and top200 by points should get the orange icons.
The problem with GM is that it's not actually invite only. There's a system, and when there's a system, it's going to be beaten by some derp.
Way to avoid this? Make GM actually an "invite only" league. Why not? Get the top pros, with some room to cycle new up and comers into it, and let em duke it out. But atm ladder has no worth so who cares :D
Getting promoted into GM should force you to play a BoX with a grandmaster to show your worth, not beat random ladder players until you have accumulated enough MMR to get inside it.
Ye it looks to me he lost 130 games in a row on purpose just to get down to bronze. I don't think him getting into gm is the problem, he's probably good enough for gm if he got there it's the fact that he lost on purpose just to own bronzers. It ruins things for those people having to face him, both when he lost on purpose and when they later didn't stand a chance.
On December 11 2011 21:40 CanucksJC wrote: You can't ban him for throwing 130 games lol Also I have no idea how he did this, I've done this myself too, throwing myself in bronze, i've won literally 100 in a row but I was still in bronze...
Yes, you can. Blizzard said it's a bannable offense.
On December 11 2011 21:40 CanucksJC wrote: You can't ban him for throwing 130 games lol Also I have no idea how he did this, I've done this myself too, throwing myself in bronze, i've won literally 100 in a row but I was still in bronze...
Yes, you can. Blizzard said it's a bannable offense.
This topic has been under debate for the longest time, you'll be surprised at the number of farmers, yet I haven't seen anyone get banned except for those that used a bot to do it. It doesn't matter how you lose the game, I think Blizzard was referring to team games when they made that statement.
On December 11 2011 21:40 CanucksJC wrote: You can't ban him for throwing 130 games lol Also I have no idea how he did this, I've done this myself too, throwing myself in bronze, i've won literally 100 in a row but I was still in bronze...
Yes, you can. Blizzard said it's a bannable offense.
I swear they said that instantly leaving a game is an offence but just throwing games such as doing a terrible strategy isnt an offence. They can't really tell you to play a certain way to win, you are allowed to play as you like. No?
On December 11 2011 21:40 CanucksJC wrote: You can't ban him for throwing 130 games lol Also I have no idea how he did this, I've done this myself too, throwing myself in bronze, i've won literally 100 in a row but I was still in bronze...
Yes, you can. Blizzard said it's a bannable offense.
I swear they said that instantly leaving a game is an offence but just throwing games such as doing a terrible strategy isnt an offence. They can't really tell you to play a certain way to win, you are allowed to play as you like. No?
If blizzard feel like you're exploiting the system some how I'm sure they'll ban you if they feel like it. They don't need any evidence. If you drop 130 games in a row it would be a pretty crazy coincidence, it just wouldn't happen by random chance.
Even if he doesnt get banned, it's gonna take him hundreds of games to get back up there since the MMR system made it way harder to climb back up if ur mmr dropped drastically, so he's gonna pay for it regardless.
On December 11 2011 21:55 ABear wrote: Even if he doesnt get banned, it's gonna take him hundreds of games to get back up there since the MMR system made it way harder to climb back up if ur mmr dropped drastically, so he's gonna pay for it regardless.
I'm sure that's what he wants. Now he can win ALOT, his opponents wont stand a chance because he abused the system.
He didnt cheat to get into GM he has beaten rank 1 masters (1.2k) if you check his match history. Throwing games to vs bronze leaguers is not cheating to get into GM.
well i personally don't like GM league that much. it was really fun when blizzard announced best 200 of each region it was like really interesting to look and examine. Now that GM is out it feels meh.
other than that if you're not good enough to be in GM league what's the point to be in there? it is fun and all but please to brag is no where as fun as being able imo.
I'm not sure I get what he has supposed to have done. He has been GM the entire season. He threw tons of games, started playing Bronze, and is now playing Silver as his MMR improves. He didn't drop out of GM at any point (unless SC2ranks is wrong).
If anything I guess he just threw games so he could curbstomp lesser players? It's certainly not to get a good win/loss, cos his is now terrible. And it's not to get into GM, cos he was already there.
Guys it's simple, if he did it super quickly when he was in GM and his bonus pool didn't get over 200 but his MMR was low enough to vs shit players (No offence) he would stay in GM with 0 points then start from there. Notice that despite his ELO being bronze level he only gets 1 point per win and 19 for a loss. As long as you keep your bonus pool low you can't get demoted back to Masters simply by having a loss streak, only if your bonus pool rises too high (See pros that travel overseas for tours and they're home ladder they get sent back to Masters) and he abused this fact but he was initially a GM player, you cant cheat to GM using this
On December 11 2011 22:08 KimJongChill wrote: Ban him? Give the guy a medal, this is hilarious and genius.
this nobody in 1v1s gets pissed off when they get free wins it's always fun to get one this guy figured out how to abuse the system without hurting anyone he should deserve gm i don't think he should be banned but blizz does need to fix this
why should he get banned. He is stupid - yes, but nothing worth banning him since he didn't cheat. This just proves that GM is bugged - which we already know
On December 11 2011 21:40 CanucksJC wrote: You can't ban him for throwing 130 games lol Also I have no idea how he did this, I've done this myself too, throwing myself in bronze, i've won literally 100 in a row but I was still in bronze...
Yes, you can. Blizzard said it's a bannable offense.
This topic has been under debate for the longest time, you'll be surprised at the number of farmers, yet I haven't seen anyone get banned except for those that used a bot to do it. It doesn't matter how you lose the game, I think Blizzard was referring to team games when they made that statement.
if you look at how Blizzard handled this in their ladder systems in the past, you would find that they don't necessarily treat it as a bannable offense. they usually just reset the player's ladder account. they did that with AMM abusers in war3 forever ago pretty consistently.
First it should be clarified if he was GM before. If he in fact was (not like the op told that he was promoted to gm) this is nothing special at all and one of the first things people critisized about GM.- You can't get demoted for sucking, just for inactivity..............which means you can drop a shitload of games when you're in gm and still stay there.........
Sky was in GM on european and a friend of mine met him trading in bronze.....
Hilarious what people start to make up . I bet a ton of silver to master players have started dropping games upon reading this thread in order to get promoted to gm lol.
On December 11 2011 22:30 Simonius wrote: Are you people retarded?
First it should be clarified if he was GM before. If he in fact was (not like the op told that he was promoted to gm) this is nothing special at all and one of the first things people critisized about GM.- You can't get demoted for sucking, just for inactivity..............which means you can drop a shitload of games when you're in gm and still stay there.........
Sky was in GM on european and a friend of mine met him trading in bronze.....
Hilarious what people start to make up . I bet a ton of silver to master players have started dropping games upon reading this thread in order to get promoted to gm lol.
you should probably make your point without writing off everyone in the entire thread with an insult before you even begin
On December 11 2011 22:30 Simonius wrote: Are you people retarded?
First it should be clarified if he was GM before. If he in fact was (not like the op told that he was promoted to gm) this is nothing special at all and one of the first things people critisized about GM.- You can't get demoted for sucking, just for inactivity..............which means you can drop a shitload of games when you're in gm and still stay there.........
Sky was in GM on european and a friend of mine met him trading in bronze.....
Hilarious what people start to make up . I bet a ton of silver to master players have started dropping games upon reading this thread in order to get promoted to gm lol.
you should probably make your point without writing off everyone in the entire thread with an insult before you even begin
Sry but it was really appalling how people immidiately talked about banning and a new abuse when this is absolutely nothing new. The op documented it like there was some new huge ladder bug or so and that's just plain wrong......
He also didn't state which league the op was before rendering this pretty ridiculous and making it sound like he was a random platinum dude who lost 130 games and then won 30 games vs bronzies just to be placed in grandmaster......
I think it's quite possible that this player was in GM beforehand, but regardless intentionally losing to lower the MMR and play only against low league players while remaining in GM is very abusive and against the rules. Blizzard has stated they will ban for this activity.
Well isn't Buki the terran who always one base all in? With the so-called "Buki build". Doesn't surprise me that much that he tries some abusive hack bullshit ;D Unfortunately, the NA ladder seems to be plagued with trash accounts (cheesers, drop hackers, stream cheaters, make your pick...), I feel for you guys. I guess you just have to bear with it for now :/
On December 11 2011 22:30 Simonius wrote: Are you people retarded?
First it should be clarified if he was GM before. If he in fact was (not like the op told that he was promoted to gm) this is nothing special at all and one of the first things people critisized about GM.- You can't get demoted for sucking, just for inactivity..............which means you can drop a shitload of games when you're in gm and still stay there.........
Sky was in GM on european and a friend of mine met him trading in bronze.....
Hilarious what people start to make up . I bet a ton of silver to master players have started dropping games upon reading this thread in order to get promoted to gm lol.
you should probably make your point without writing off everyone in the entire thread with an insult before you even begin
Sry but it was really appalling how people immidiately talked about banning and a new abuse when this is absolutely nothing new. The op documented it like there was some new huge ladder bug or so and that's just plain wrong......
He also didn't state which league the op was before rendering this pretty ridiculous and making it sound like he was a random platinum dude who lost 130 games and then won 30 games vs bronzies just to be placed in grandmaster......
that's understandable mBnbuki was most definitely in GM at the start of the ladder season. he's a strong player; agreed that the OP is definitely misleading in that regard.
On December 11 2011 22:50 ZenithM wrote: Well isn't Buki the terran who always one base all in? With the so-called "Buki build". Doesn't surprise me that much that he tries some abusive hack bullshit ;D Unfortunately, the NA ladder seems to be plagued with trash accounts (cheesers, drop hackers, stream cheaters, make your pick...), I feel for you guys. I guess you just have to bear with it for now :/
he isn't hacking, so it's unfair to pin that on him. i'm not sure this even counts as abuse, since he was already in GM. at the very least, it does point out that the system of having players booted by inactivity alone can be lame in one-off cases like this, but i'm not sure how that warrants tearing apart the player and throwing out a generalization about the server he plays on. every location has its fair share of players who do something that's looked down upon, unfortunately. every location also has its share of creative one-base all-in players.
On December 11 2011 22:50 ZenithM wrote: Well isn't Buki the terran who always one base all in? With the so-called "Buki build". Doesn't surprise me that much that he tries some abusive hack bullshit ;D Unfortunately, the NA ladder seems to be plagued with trash accounts (cheesers, drop hackers, stream cheaters, make your pick...), I feel for you guys. I guess you just have to bear with it for now :/
he isn't hacking, so it's unfair to pin that on him. i'm not sure this even counts as abuse, since he was already in GM. at the very least, it does point out that the system of having players booted by inactivity alone can be lame in one-off cases like this, but i'm not sure how that warrants tearing apart the player and throwing out a generalization about the server he plays on. every location has its fair share of players who do something that's looked down upon, unfortunately. every location also has its share of creative one-base all-in players.
You call it creative, I call it cheesy, that's all a matter of perspective Regardless, you're right, that's no hack, but that's still very shady. Not the kind of shit a "strong" player needs for sure.
On December 11 2011 22:51 listal wrote: that's understandable mBnbuki was most definitely in GM at the start of the ladder season. he's a strong player; agreed that the OP is definitely misleading in that regard.
It's not misleading - it's completely wrong. The whole premise of the post is that you can "game the MMR system" to get into GM by dropping your MMR so low that you only need to pound Bronze/Silver players to get in, which is completely incorrect.
On December 11 2011 22:51 listal wrote: that's understandable mBnbuki was most definitely in GM at the start of the ladder season. he's a strong player; agreed that the OP is definitely misleading in that regard.
It's not misleading - it's completely wrong. The whole premise of the post is that you can "game the MMR system" to get into GM by dropping your MMR so low that you only need to pound Bronze/Silver players to get in, which is completely incorrect.
i think that point has been clearly established. i guess i was trying to be tactful, but apparently i ended up being unclear
The OP is wrong and almost every other person in this thread is wrong, wtf? It's not that hard to tell what happened.
He played into GM normally at the start of season 4.
Once you are in GM, you will stay GM for the rest of the season.
If you decide to lose 300 games on purpose, your MMR will sink to that of a bronze player and you will start playing bronze players.
Your MMR will work exactly like that of any other player, besides that you don't get demoted. The only way to get demoted from GM is if your bonuspool is over 180. That's intentionally by blizzard.
If he doesn't win any more games from now on, once the new season starts he would be placed into a bronze division.
tl;dr: there is still no known way to exploit getting into GM, the OP was simply wrong in his assumptions
Why does it not surprise me that 90% of the people in this thread got it wrong and think he gamed the system? OP got confuse with ladder points and MMR.
MMR is NOT ladder points.
Like others have said, he got into GM legit. He's trying to game the system into doing something else, my guess is trying to climb the GM ranks. He finds it hard to get ladder points from playing other GM-level players, so he's trying to get ladder points by sacrificing his MMR to the point where he can get EZ wins against bronze players, and farm up his ladder points that way starting from 0 ladder points.
Unfortunately for him, he's only getting 1 or 2 points for each win so he failed.
tl;dr: he failed at exploiting the ladder and nothing was gained.
What a boss, I've been waiting for somebody to do this so it shows how utterly retarded the GM system is on ladder, but please change the title, edit, put a banner or something other than an edit at the bottom of the post, saying this guy is cheating the system and placed in GM with a bronze MMR is not fair to him. Blame Blizzard, not the players who abuse it >.> he got in fairly.
On December 11 2011 23:21 ZwuckeL wrote: The OP is wrong and almost every other person in this thread is wrong, wtf? It's not that hard to tell what happened.
He played into GM normally at the start of season 4.
Once you are in GM, you will stay GM for the rest of the season.
If you decide to lose 300 games on purpose, your MMR will sink to that of a bronze player and you will start playing bronze players.
Your MMR will work exactly like that of any other player, besides that you don't get demoted. The only way to get demoted from GM is if your bonuspool is over 180. That's intentionally by blizzard.
If he doesn't win any more games from now on, once the new season starts he would be placed into a bronze division.
tl;dr: there is still no known way to exploit getting into GM, the OP was simply wrong in his assumptions
Lol you said what i said but made it easier to understand (I have had like 9 hours sleep the last 3 days so bear with me haha)
This thread is retarded people are explaining what happened like 5-7 times and still people are only reading the post of the OP and commenting about how broken the gm is... WTF?!
I don't get it, what's the advantage he's getting here? He can stay in GM by beating silver league players but he's good enough to get to GM anyway. He could just beat master league players to stay in GM, is he just super lazy or something?
On December 11 2011 23:57 teide wrote: Grandmaster league should be the best 200 people all the time until league block not the 200 best mmr the day it start the league.
Yeah, and politicians should be good, guys not pigs and girls not whores... so what else is new :D.
The stupid thing is You can be demoted during the season ONLY when You are inactive, and not in a different way. Short seasons nowadays actually are helping getting to GM (despite that for bronze-master players 2month season is to short), but anyways, rules are questionable... They should demote a player when for ex. his MMR dropped below the average master level or something.
I got to be one of the lucky ones who mBnBuki ran into on ladder while tanking games. He executes a nearly flawless quadruple proxy hatch rush if you want to check it out: http://drop.sc/72254
I'm mid/high masters, for reference, so probably early on in his tanking.
On December 11 2011 21:40 CanucksJC wrote: You can't ban him for throwing 130 games lol Also I have no idea how he did this, it doesnt make sense that other farmers didn't get GM this way... :S
Blizzard made you sign an EULA that states that they can ban you whenever they want without any reason, so they can ban him ofc. They also stated that intentionally losing is an offence they will punish, so i have to disagree.
On December 11 2011 21:38 Unfortunate wrote: The problem with GM is that it's not actually invite only. There's a system, and when there's a system, it's going to be beaten by some derp.
Way to avoid this? Make GM actually an "invite only" league. Why not? Get the top pros, with some room to cycle new up and comers into it, and let em duke it out. But atm ladder has no worth so who cares :D
This is a horrible idea. A big problem with the community is that the "invite only" system recycles the same players over and over, while new skilled players who are better than the "invites" have difficulty breaking in. It is like the system MLG used over this last year, where someone can do well at the start of the season, and get invited back again and again. Only this is worse because it is more invisible.
In fact, I think the Blizzcon Invitationals were a complete sham. Instead of inviting the Top 8 ladder players from NA/EU ect, they cherry picked who they thought were the best.
When we judge who we think is the best subjectively, instead of letting the results speaks for themselves objectively, E-Sports becomes a sham like professional boxing.
On December 11 2011 21:48 softan wrote: Blizzard can ban whoever they want. They own your accounts.
No they can't
The ToS states that they own your account and that they can ban your account for any given reason, I don't know how this holds up in court tho cuz I'm not a lawyer. Then again I doubt anyone would win a case vs Blizzard in a court rofl...
What the fuck? How did 90% of the posters in this thread miss the throbbingly obvious fact that this guy was in GM to BEGIN WITH?
This isn't going to work just for any account, where is the "gaming" of the system in which you talk about? Please elaborate, on the steps that a silver player need take to get into GM?
On December 11 2011 23:38 Keyboard Warrior wrote: GM system in NA is not reliable. Blizzard needs to do something about it. Maybe invites?
Remove the lock (give an icon). Make it top 200 based on points similar to the weekly top 200's blizzard posted before GM was open.
You can even decide to lock GM Weekly and then re-org at a specifed time when they update the top 200.
The system is stupid.
A locked league is stupid, its not as if they only play each other. It makes absolutely no sense that they have done this and it is really frustrating that it is based on MMR which you cannot see so you have no idea if you are progressing or where you stand.
I think this is actually quite awesome and shows that blizzard should improve that system. However I don't think this will work for more than a few spots in the GM top 200 so i don't really care + his MMR was already GM level to start. The best will still be on the top. GG!
What? He clearly did this to mindfuck his bronze opponents into thinking why they are fighting against a GM player. Just trolling for the lulz im sure.
what dont people understand, he did int break a system or glitch anything. he was in GM in the first place and since you cant be demoted unless your bonus pool is 180 he got alot of losses on purpose and decided to get easy wins. Now his MMR isnt going to be high for next season so gl to him getting back in.
Pointless topic is pointless and should be deleted.
tl;dr topic- OP thinks that "mBnBuki" gamed the ladder system by intentionally losing then got into Grandmaster by getting a win streak of 32-3. This was all speculation as Buki was already in GM before intentionally losing his games (which some people are against) so now this thread is all nonsense talking and complaining.
On December 11 2011 21:45 Speece wrote: According to sc2ranks, he has been in GM for the whole season.
Yeah no need to get your panties in a bunch OP, maybe you should've read the ladder guide thread before taking your time to take those screenshots and start the thread.
He just lost a bunch of games in a row for some reason, and since you don't get kicked out for having low mmr and only for accumulating bonus pool, he wasn't removed from the division. You can rest assured that if his mmr doesn't get back up to gm level next season, he won't get in. No big deal..
Looks like lots of people in this thread have no clue about this and you're trying to discredit the NA gm ladder
On December 11 2011 21:35 Sadistx wrote: The guy should be banned for throwing 130 games, not getting into GM league.
The division system is still bad and there's no reason a closed league (by number of spots) should even exist, especially if it flat out doesn't work and is exploitable like we see here.
GM should just be masters league and top200 by points should get the orange icons.
Its so retarded that they dont just fucking make top 200 of masters = GM, instead of having it be a separate GOD DAMN league.
On December 11 2011 21:35 Sadistx wrote: The guy should be banned for throwing 130 games, not getting into GM league.
The division system is still bad and there's no reason a closed league (by number of spots) should even exist, especially if it flat out doesn't work and is exploitable like we see here.
GM should just be masters league and top200 by points should get the orange icons.
Its so retarded that they dont just fucking make top 200 of masters = GM, instead of having it be a separate GOD DAMN league.
On December 11 2011 21:35 Sadistx wrote: The guy should be banned for throwing 130 games, not getting into GM league.
The division system is still bad and there's no reason a closed league (by number of spots) should even exist, especially if it flat out doesn't work and is exploitable like we see here.
GM should just be masters league and top200 by points should get the orange icons.
Its so retarded that they dont just fucking make top 200 of masters = GM, instead of having it be a separate GOD DAMN league.
Have said this from the get go. Its pretty bullshit. Kinda ruins motivation for playing ladder.
On December 11 2011 21:35 Sadistx wrote: The guy should be banned for throwing 130 games, not getting into GM league.
The division system is still bad and there's no reason a closed league (by number of spots) should even exist, especially if it flat out doesn't work and is exploitable like we see here.
GM should just be masters league and top200 by points should get the orange icons.
Its so retarded that they dont just fucking make top 200 of masters = GM, instead of having it be a separate GOD DAMN league.
Yeah that actually makes WAY more sense than this current system... honestly there are so many secret rules to the GM league and MMR in general that I'm not even sure if blizzard knows what's going on here.
On December 11 2011 21:35 Sadistx wrote: The guy should be banned for throwing 130 games, not getting into GM league.
The division system is still bad and there's no reason a closed league (by number of spots) should even exist, especially if it flat out doesn't work and is exploitable like we see here.
GM should just be masters league and top200 by points should get the orange icons.
Its so retarded that they dont just fucking make top 200 of masters = GM, instead of having it be a separate GOD DAMN league.
x2 this.
Locking GM after one week of play is redundant. There are individuals like Jinro pointed out that are in masters but ranked top 200 over current "GM" players.
I think GM league being fixed in place is actually a good thing, but I think it should be judged on rank (MMR) at the end of the previous season. If it changed constantly you'd be getting promoted and demoted in between evey other game at top masters/bottom GM.
It would be nice if he had made a post pointing out how broken the GM system is before doing this, so as to make a point rather than whatever his reason is (which may still be to make a point, who knows).
GM has been broken since it was announced (as in, when they first explained the rules), and it was obvious then it was dumb. Then it was actually broken this season on NA. And then tis guy showed how broken it is conceptually.
On December 11 2011 21:35 Sadistx wrote: The guy should be banned for throwing 130 games, not getting into GM league.
The division system is still bad and there's no reason a closed league (by number of spots) should even exist, especially if it flat out doesn't work and is exploitable like we see here.
GM should just be masters league and top200 by points should get the orange icons.
Its so retarded that they dont just fucking make top 200 of masters = GM, instead of having it be a separate GOD DAMN league.
so true, not sure if this has been mentioned but what if he couldnt play and his Bonus pool was getting high and just had someone lose games for him to and they were roughly silver level to stay in the GM league =/
On December 12 2011 01:33 Iyerbeth wrote: I think GM league being fixed in place is actually a good thing, but I think it should be judged on rank (MMR) at the end of the previous season. If it changed constantly you'd be getting promoted and demoted in between evey other game at top masters/bottom GM.
Also, this thread made me laugh quite a bit. ♥
Actually, you can create a system that demotes past a lower threshhold than the promotions. It would work the same way some mechanical rear spoilers work on cars. At 50 mph, the spoiler raises to give traction, but it doesn't go back down until the speed goes below 40. That way, it's not always going back and forth. If Blizzard would implement a system like this, say where you get kicked out of GM if you reach diamond MMR, then this would never happen and it would prevent multiple hops. The cutoff could theoretically be placed anywhere.
On December 11 2011 21:35 Sadistx wrote: The guy should be banned for throwing 130 games, not getting into GM league.
The division system is still bad and there's no reason a closed league (by number of spots) should even exist, especially if it flat out doesn't work and is exploitable like we see here.
GM should just be masters league and top200 by points should get the orange icons.
Its so retarded that they dont just fucking make top 200 of masters = GM, instead of having it be a separate GOD DAMN league.
I would imagine that people would still find a way to game the system. Although at least with the straight top 200 the damage wouldn't be for an entire season.
On December 12 2011 02:31 Qaz wrote: I've played this guy before. He wasn't much higher than mid master...
i've played him before as well, but he's definitely much better than mid master.
lots of players in low GM are exploiting it. vptang is probably the most notable person abused the hell out the system by mysteriously making GM in one season and playing just enough to not get dropped from the league. by the end of the season he was average master mmr.
this isn't the first time someone has done this. Last season cypherX [current gm atm] and monster[?] tanked their ratio to play bronzes. Someone made a post about it on the Bnet forums and they were removed from GM last season.
On December 12 2011 02:31 Qaz wrote: I've played this guy before. He wasn't much higher than mid master...
He's got to be low Master abusing the system to get into GM then no way would mid/ high master be dropping 3 games to silver leagues after he tanked his MMR.
It does show he did drop 3 games to bronze/silver so maybe he is abusing system
On December 12 2011 02:31 Qaz wrote: I've played this guy before. He wasn't much higher than mid master...
He's got to be low Master abusing the system to get into GM then no way would mid/ high master be dropping 3 games to silver leagues after he tanked his MMR.
It does show he did drop 3 games to bronze/silver so maybe he is abusing system
I played him about a week ago and he was GM. He is just a really cheesy player in general and does alot of 1 Base Play and it really annoys me, I have yet to see this guy macro once. Blizzard probably won't take action anyway
On December 12 2011 02:31 Qaz wrote: I've played this guy before. He wasn't much higher than mid master...
He's got to be low Master abusing the system to get into GM then no way would mid/ high master be dropping 3 games to silver leagues after he tanked his MMR.
It does show he did drop 3 games to bronze/silver so maybe he is abusing system
fail......
After tanking MMR losing 3 games to bronze/silver =\= GM level player
How blizzard cant comprehend that their current ladder system is complete and utter shit is beyond anyones imagination, but they wont change it, because its blizzard.
With the information available in the current ladder system, no one can tell at all what place he is ranked at. You are a bronze player and you played a grandmaster and won. Does it tell you anything? No it doesnt, because the grandmaster can have MMR as low as yours.
You are a silver player and play against platinum and win, does it tell you anything? No it doesnt because his MMR could be as low as yours without him being dropped out of platinum and without you being promoted.
The points are utterly useless, the bonus pool is utterly useless, grandmaster league is utterly useless. The league system itself is utterly useless aswell because the way people are being promoted and demoted isnt well known and you can easily be a bronze quality player while being in diamond and the other way around.
I think for you to go out of your way to talk about a non pro player is stupid. It is impossible for the different leagues to be perfect and the ranking's don't really matter.. Let the tourney speak for themselves, not grand masters
So what's the discussion here? The original post thought he made it into GM after beating a silver player but it was later found out that the OP was wrong and he was GM all season?
.. like, what are we.. he lost a lot of games and wasn't demoted out of GM. GM has been fubar since day one of season 4.. what am i supposed to take away here?
On December 12 2011 01:05 Aterons_toss wrote: How can a master level T losse 3 games in 35 vs bronze/silver o.o Also... stupid ladder system with no demote GM is stupid
He didn't play all bronze and silver, he started playing them yes, but as his mmr increased he was playing Masters there's nothing wrong with what happened it just shows that if you go on that good of a win streak your mmr can skyrocket.
On December 11 2011 21:35 Sadistx wrote: The guy should be banned for throwing 130 games, not getting into GM league.
The division system is still bad and there's no reason a closed league (by number of spots) should even exist, especially if it flat out doesn't work and is exploitable like we see here.
GM should just be masters league and top200 by points should get the orange icons.
banned for what? why is throwing games a bannable offense. he just gave 130 ppl a free win thats like charity. be mad @ blizzard for having a retarded ladder system that a 12 year old would create. no offense 12 yr olds
mmmm disagree there, yes in rare cases especially higher up it can be less useful in some cases but most of the time it can tell a great deal about a player. I recently bought a new account and basically a week after i got it, I was in pretty much the same position as my old account. 50/50 win ratio players are alright and insane win ratios typically represent your pros, koreans or upcoming players (state and illusion come to mind).
Now I agree to a certain point though, my revdime account is 92-62 and my nrgdime account is 48-8 but approximately the same mmr, I play high master/gm's which is pretty much all I need from ladder. The issue with my account mmr's being similar means that it can be very confusing where for example I lie as a player. Having an 80% win ratio is cool but that win ratio involves all of my games going up to masters including golds, plats diamonds etc (I worker rushed my placements and somehow won two, placed in gold)
Top pros would keep such a win ratio around 60-80% where as looking at my first account I level out between 53-59% win ratios, on average, when I play on NA server atleast. Take people who have went to portrait farm getting huge win ratios for example, you can tell how good they are simply because after having such a huge win streak their points are low. If it was utterly useless I wouldn't be able to make any predictions about gameplay, it would be useless but I can on average get a very good indication where people lie.
But i'll agree, the GM system can be improved and should be changed, just arguing that information can be pulled from bonus pools, ladder points etc.
Question: If you say lost 200 games in a row in GM, lowered your MMR then started playing again at a bronze level do you gain points? I mean can you just play bronze-silver be in the GM league and get highly ranked in GM cuz now your winning games?
Wow yeah, okay, a lot of pretty huge misconceptions here.
1. As people have already mentioned, this guy was in GM league to start. He didn't get promoted there after the loss streak, that would be impossible.
2. The only way you can get demoted from GM league is to go over 180 bonus pool. Each league has a hidden offset which is kind of like a minimum point barrier in order to ensure that you don't get many points when playing against people below your league. That is, if a Master player at 0 points and a Grandmaster at 0 points both played the same mid-Master MMR opponent, the Master player would get maybe 12 while the GM would get maybe 6. Since the only way to spend bonus pool is to win games, this effectively makes it harder to spend your pool because it's easier to spend it at 12 points per win rather than 6 points per game. At the extreme end (say GM playing Bronze), you will earn 0 points for a win which means you didn't spend any bonus pool for that game. This means that there is a limit on how far your MMR can drop before you will inevitably be kicked from GM league due to earning 0 points for wins (as to how tight those restrictions should be, that's another debate).
3. This practice is not new and has been reported before, when the lowest GM players were facing Diamonds and only earning +2 or +3 points per win, just barely keeping their head above water and able to spend their bonus pool through mass gaming and eventual wins. Buki just took this to a more extreme level.
4. To get into Grandmaster league you have to have an MMR moving average of the top 200 on the server. It's going to be very difficult for Buki to raise that average back up for the next season.
you guys do understand you cannot get kicked out from GM except for anything but inactivity u can lose 100000000000000 games and still be in GM as long as ur bp doesnt go over like 160, he has been in GM this whole time pretty sure
On December 12 2011 03:26 XRaDiiX wrote: The GM system is dumb you can lose 130 games in a row without being demoted.Why doesn't the system boot out players with tanking MMR .
Guess I should switch Terran and 1 base all ins every game
Yeah or you could play Protoss and 4-gate every game, even easier and a higher win rate for sure.
(as to how tight those restrictions should be, that's another debate)
If there's anything to take away from this thread it would be the necessity of reducing the maximum bonus pool by a small margin. Obviously this on it's own doesn't mean the system is messed up but.. well, there are so many high masters that are actual pro players and I'd like to see the top 200 be much more volatile than it currently is.
On December 11 2011 22:30 Simonius wrote: Are you people retarded?
First it should be clarified if he was GM before. If he in fact was (not like the op told that he was promoted to gm) this is nothing special at all and one of the first things people critisized about GM.- You can't get demoted for sucking, just for inactivity..............which means you can drop a shitload of games when you're in gm and still stay there.........
Sky was in GM on european and a friend of mine met him trading in bronze.....
Hilarious what people start to make up . I bet a ton of silver to master players have started dropping games upon reading this thread in order to get promoted to gm lol.
you should probably make your point without writing off everyone in the entire thread with an insult before you even begin
You can't blame him when everyone is jumping to conclusions like retards o_O
On December 12 2011 03:37 Excalibur_Z wrote: Wow yeah, okay, a lot of pretty huge misconceptions here.
1. As people have already mentioned, this guy was in GM league to start. He didn't get promoted there after the loss streak, that would be impossible.
2. The only way you can get demoted from GM league is to go over 180 bonus pool. Each league has a hidden offset which is kind of like a minimum point barrier in order to ensure that you don't get many points when playing against people below your league. That is, if a Master player at 0 points and a Grandmaster at 0 points both played the same mid-Master MMR opponent, the Master player would get maybe 12 while the GM would get maybe 6. Since the only way to spend bonus pool is to win games, this effectively makes it harder to spend your pool because it's easier to spend it at 12 points per win rather than 6 points per game. At the extreme end (say GM playing Bronze), you will earn 0 points for a win which means you didn't spend any bonus pool for that game. This means that there is a limit on how far your MMR can drop before you will inevitably be kicked from GM league due to earning 0 points for wins (as to how tight those restrictions should be, that's another debate).
3. This practice is not new and has been reported before, when the lowest GM players were facing Diamonds and only earning +2 or +3 points per win, just barely keeping their head above water and able to spend their bonus pool through mass gaming and eventual wins. Buki just took this to a more extreme level.
4. To get into Grandmaster league you have to have an MMR moving average of the top 200 on the server. It's going to be very difficult for Buki to raise that average back up for the next season.
Thanks for these clarifications. So did he start in GM then drop down, and then get back into GM without being in Masters first? If so I'm very confused because the OP sounds like he jumped from silver to GM or something.
It doesnt even matter, next season his mmr will be way too low to get gm again and hell be out. simple. To get in gm u have to have high mmr. so he got there deservingly. this guy played vs tyler alot on his stream he all ins / cheeses everygame. nothing special. standard north american grandmaster. Let him have his fun in gm this season he wont be there next season.
On December 12 2011 03:37 Excalibur_Z wrote: Wow yeah, okay, a lot of pretty huge misconceptions here.
1. As people have already mentioned, this guy was in GM league to start. He didn't get promoted there after the loss streak, that would be impossible.
2. The only way you can get demoted from GM league is to go over 180 bonus pool. Each league has a hidden offset which is kind of like a minimum point barrier in order to ensure that you don't get many points when playing against people below your league. That is, if a Master player at 0 points and a Grandmaster at 0 points both played the same mid-Master MMR opponent, the Master player would get maybe 12 while the GM would get maybe 6. Since the only way to spend bonus pool is to win games, this effectively makes it harder to spend your pool because it's easier to spend it at 12 points per win rather than 6 points per game. At the extreme end (say GM playing Bronze), you will earn 0 points for a win which means you didn't spend any bonus pool for that game. This means that there is a limit on how far your MMR can drop before you will inevitably be kicked from GM league due to earning 0 points for wins (as to how tight those restrictions should be, that's another debate).
3. This practice is not new and has been reported before, when the lowest GM players were facing Diamonds and only earning +2 or +3 points per win, just barely keeping their head above water and able to spend their bonus pool through mass gaming and eventual wins. Buki just took this to a more extreme level.
4. To get into Grandmaster league you have to have an MMR moving average of the top 200 on the server. It's going to be very difficult for Buki to raise that average back up for the next season.
Thanks for these clarifications. So did he start in GM then drop down, and then get back into GM without being in Masters first? If so I'm very confused because the OP sounds like he jumped from silver to GM or something.
He's been in for the whole season, and just recently tanked his mmr by going on a mass losing streak so now he only gets to play really low level players on ladder
I met him this season on ladder and he left I thought it was because he was a CSL player and decided to throw away points... and to think I was excited that I was matched against a GM
(as to how tight those restrictions should be, that's another debate)
If there's anything to take away from this thread it would be the necessity of reducing the maximum bonus pool by a small margin. Obviously this on it's own doesn't mean the system is messed up but.. well, there are so many high masters that are actual pro players and I'd like to see the top 200 be much more volatile than it currently is.
If you make it much smaller then people won't have the time to keep up. They don't want GM to be very volatile. They want it to be the pantheon of best players. And think about the people who earn GM. Do pro players really have time to sit and constantly play down their bonus pool? It's probably a bit of a chore as it is, making that harder would just piss them off.
Wow... blizzard should ban him because of his brazenness and abuser attitude. This situation is pretty sad and could be considered as boycott of the blizzard's system.
I don't think this warranted it's own thread. I ran into him, he left the game immediately, saw he was tanking b/c of his match history, and kept laddering lol He was already GM. He's not exploiting the system to try to get back in. He either wants to smash bronzies (which is against blizzard's rules to tank like that) or is testing the system a little to see what the boundaries are. OP is misleading.
LMAO, you guys are so stupid. I actually read all 7 pages of nonsense. Only a handful of you got it right, thank goodness.
Buki is a friend of mine, he is obviously trolling. He just wants to tank his mmr so he intentionally loses. Then he got to a point where he doesn't lose anymore points so he decided to play again.
Sorry guys, this isn't a bug where you can go from silver to GM trick. It is just simply trolling.
ExcaliburZ defended Blizzards system by saying that if you lose a lot you will gain so few point by winning that you wont be able to get read of the bonus pool. So that impossible number of games is 45 a week to keep it at 0? Impossible indeed.
On December 12 2011 04:50 DjRetro wrote: Wow... blizzard should ban him because of his brazenness and abuser attitude. This situation is pretty sad and could be considered as boycott of the blizzard's system.
He won't get a ban for this... If he wants to ladder and lose on purpose, that's his prerogative, it's not Blizzards business.
You people need to read Excalibur_Z posts and the sticky. The ignorance and lack of reading comprehension in here is ridiculous. READ and THINK before you start off on the oh so popular Blizzard bashing.
And for those guys who somehow think an invite system is better... who determines the invites? The fact is there are plenty of no-name guys who don't stream, don't join teams, or go 'pro' that are better than the 'pros' that would be invited through this subjective popularity contest.
For people like me who have great interest in the inner workings of the ladder system this is a golden opportunity. Having a GM player facing bronze-silver and up players mean we get a rare glimpse at the unadjusted points difference between GM league and the lower leagues. By collecting data from Buki's match history we can learn quite a lot. Unfortunately I am an EU player and don't have an account on the NA server, so I am unable to do so myself. If someone can step up and gather the following data it can help determine what is the unadjusted points difference between GM and each of the leagues (we already have a good estimate of the difference between GM and master), as well and figuring out the points won/lost formula and how it relates to the difference in unadjusted points between the 2 players.
I'm not sure how many people are interested in figuring out the unadjusted points difference of the ladder system (just how far is bronze from gm? silver from diamond?). Occasionally we get a thread asking how many tiers of skills exist in starcraft. Well, this is a rare opportunity to get closer to answering this question.
The following data should be collected: - Buki's points and his opponents points and league - match result and points earned / lost by both parties. It's important to disregard any bonus points won as they are meaningless for our purposes.
The most important matches are those where Buki's opponent has lost (or won) roughly 12 points. This will tell us that this opponent has his ladder points close to his MMR, which is vital when trying to gather insights from the match data.
(explanation: seeing how the ladder system matches 2 players who are close in MMR together, we can assume that most players who are playing Buki have MMR similar to Buki's at the time of their match. However an opponent who wins much higher than 12 points for a win or losses very few [or vice versa] is an opponent whose ladder points are still playing catchup with his MMR. This is likely due to the player having not played enough games for his points to stabilize yet, but might also be due to sudden change in skill, race change, etc)
*All points should be calculated as the players ladder points + unspent ladder points
It's requires some work gathering the data. Will someone step up and do it?
This thread needs to be closed. Op has a mis leading title / false information.
MBN buki probably started losing (not on purpose; just bad play or bad luck) then like A LOT of players; they go on this emotional train of just losing a lot on purpose bcuz they got pissed they lost ladder pts.
He was never kicked out of GM in the first place. but getting GM next season will be hard for him unless he raises his MMR A LOT to get his GM MMR back.
On December 12 2011 07:04 CuHz wrote: This thread needs to be closed. Op has a mis leading title / false information.
MBN buki probably started losing (not on purpose; just bad play or bad luck) then like A LOT of players; they go on this emotional train of just losing a lot on purpose bcuz they got pissed they lost ladder pts.
He was never kicked out of GM in the first place. but getting GM next season will be hard for him unless he raises his MMR A LOT to get his GM MMR back.
How can a grandmaster go on a 130 loss losing streak, against bronzies and silver...
Buki has always been near the top of the ladder, and is known for his awesome 1 base allins (1 base ghosts/banshee hell yea). He obviously just wanted to fuck around even more.
I think this thread is mistaken in It's original premise that he is somehow gaming the system to get into GM as has been shown to be false.
What I think it does highlight and what should be discussed is the inability for people to get demoted out of GM outside of bonus point accrual and season resets. By all means it doesn't need to be super volatile, but we know GM often fills up in a day, and if a good player happens not to be playing, or some weaker players are on a hot streak at the time of GM placement suddenly its 4-6 weeks before the mistake is rectified.
I can't see any reason why people should not be demoted from GM if there is a suitably skilled opponent rated above their MMR and there is a sufficient confidence interval on that estimate.
hmmm yeh unless i have bronze mmr too then i dont know... i played him a few times but all he does is ghost marauder hellion nuke all in so... and i always vs grandmasters ppl or at least high masters....
This is actually a flaw in Blizzard's one account per ID rule. Buki wanted to work on Protoss and new strategies for Terran, but you can't really off race or work on new builds/strats if your MMR is at GM levels. So he tanked he MMR so he can start working on a new race (protoss, look at his match history). Then work on new "Buki" builds.
On December 12 2011 04:50 DjRetro wrote: Wow... blizzard should ban him because of his brazenness and abuser attitude. This situation is pretty sad and could be considered as boycott of the blizzard's system.
He won't get a ban for this... If he wants to ladder and lose on purpose, that's his prerogative, it's not Blizzards business.
Actually it is. Blizzard own his account and they own the game. They've even mentioned themselves that dropping games on purpose to later own people WAY below your skill is a bannable offence. They could however ban him even if he didn't do anything wrong. They can do pretty much whatever they want with "our" accounts. Read the licence agreement you accepted.
Also, blizzard's ladder is fine, it is built so you constantly play people at your skill level. At Master's you still play GM because all that matter's is MMR. What is broken?
On December 12 2011 07:04 CuHz wrote: This thread needs to be closed. Op has a mis leading title / false information.
MBN buki probably started losing (not on purpose; just bad play or bad luck) then like A LOT of players; they go on this emotional train of just losing a lot on purpose bcuz they got pissed they lost ladder pts.
There aren't words in any language to describe how tilted you would have to be to be a GM and lose 130 games in a row, at the end to bronze league players. Do actually believe that's what happened?
Well it looks like right now he has gold/plat mmr because I just faced him and lost. I am a high gold level player who has been facing against 50/50 gold/plat so I am assuming that is where he is at.
I talked to him after the game and he said he likes trolling the lower leagues...
Also he did say he did it on purpose. So words straight from his keyboard to my computer screen.
On December 12 2011 07:35 steelcurtain09 wrote: Well it looks like right now he has gold/plat mmr because I just faced him and lost. I am a high gold level player who has been facing against 50/50 gold/plat so I am assuming that is where he is at.
I talked to him after the game and he said he likes trolling the lower leagues...
Also he did say he did it on purpose. So words straight from his keyboard to my computer screen.
You should post a screenshot or it's completely unbelievable you happened to meet the one GM at gold MMR.
so... you're saying that he has the skill level of a GM player and despite weird attempts to artificially manipulate his MMR the system still knows he belongs in GM? Sounds like the system is working to me! haha
On December 12 2011 07:35 steelcurtain09 wrote: Well it looks like right now he has gold/plat mmr because I just faced him and lost. I am a high gold level player who has been facing against 50/50 gold/plat so I am assuming that is where he is at.
I talked to him after the game and he said he likes trolling the lower leagues...
Also he did say he did it on purpose. So words straight from his keyboard to my computer screen.
You should post a screenshot or it's completely unbelievable you happened to meet the one GM at gold MMR.
What's unbelievable about it? Buki is raising his MMR back with protoss and right now it's around gold/plat... you can still have your grandmaster icon and have the lowest MMR in the world, as long as you keep your bonus pool low.
As you know Buki is known for his all-ins aka Buki-Build... He sits right next to me in our gaming house. He wants to work on his macro game without purchasing a new account. Our sponsors are quite minimal right now so he can't afford a new account. That being said once he hits masters again he will stop playing only blink stalk and go back to terran macro game. See you at MLG Columbus 2012!
On December 12 2011 07:35 steelcurtain09 wrote: Well it looks like right now he has gold/plat mmr because I just faced him and lost. I am a high gold level player who has been facing against 50/50 gold/plat so I am assuming that is where he is at.
I talked to him after the game and he said he likes trolling the lower leagues...
Also he did say he did it on purpose. So words straight from his keyboard to my computer screen.
You should post a screenshot or it's completely unbelievable you happened to meet the one GM at gold MMR.
I didn't think to take the screenshot right then so i already left the page which shows the icons. But I can give you a screenshot of the match history.
But now I wish I had been thinking at that moment. It would have made for an interesting screenshot..
But here's a little bit of the conversation we had immediately afterwards. I recognized the name in-game so i accused him of it as soon as the game started, but he didn't seem to know what I was talking about.
On December 11 2011 21:24 oOOoOphidian wrote: edit: IF YOU DON'T READ THIS PART DON'T BOTHER REPLYING...... It seems that buki was already in GM and stayed in due to the system. As he can only be removed by inactivity and bonus pool accumulating, losing 130 games in a row doesn't demote the account from GM. I'm curious whether the lowered MMR will make it impossible to get back into GM next season, but either way the intentional losing is bannable.
So basically the premise of this OP was completely wrong, and the title is wrong, and this thread should be locked.
To be fair to the offending player, this unit composition in the video was very interesting. He had Destiny on the ropes and I almost felt if he had been a bit more aggressive, the game would have been his.
Hellion/Banshee/Ghost + ~4-6 SCV composition...I've never seen this before.
On December 12 2011 07:04 CuHz wrote: This thread needs to be closed. Op has a mis leading title / false information.
MBN buki probably started losing (not on purpose; just bad play or bad luck) then like A LOT of players; they go on this emotional train of just losing a lot on purpose bcuz they got pissed they lost ladder pts.
There aren't words in any language to describe how tilted you would have to be to be a GM and lose 130 games in a row, at the end to bronze league players. Do actually believe that's what happened?
look at his match history; his first beginning losses were him actually trying. went on a losing streak with him trying, then started dumping games. Tell me why he ddnt start doing this 130 lose streak when he was winning in ladder? exactly.
I've seen this happen to over a dozen sc2 players already;
On December 12 2011 03:37 Excalibur_Z wrote: Wow yeah, okay, a lot of pretty huge misconceptions here.
1. As people have already mentioned, this guy was in GM league to start. He didn't get promoted there after the loss streak, that would be impossible.
2. The only way you can get demoted from GM league is to go over 180 bonus pool. Each league has a hidden offset which is kind of like a minimum point barrier in order to ensure that you don't get many points when playing against people below your league. That is, if a Master player at 0 points and a Grandmaster at 0 points both played the same mid-Master MMR opponent, the Master player would get maybe 12 while the GM would get maybe 6. Since the only way to spend bonus pool is to win games, this effectively makes it harder to spend your pool because it's easier to spend it at 12 points per win rather than 6 points per game. At the extreme end (say GM playing Bronze), you will earn 0 points for a win which means you didn't spend any bonus pool for that game. This means that there is a limit on how far your MMR can drop before you will inevitably be kicked from GM league due to earning 0 points for wins (as to how tight those restrictions should be, that's another debate).
3. This practice is not new and has been reported before, when the lowest GM players were facing Diamonds and only earning +2 or +3 points per win, just barely keeping their head above water and able to spend their bonus pool through mass gaming and eventual wins. Buki just took this to a more extreme level.
4. To get into Grandmaster league you have to have an MMR moving average of the top 200 on the server. It's going to be very difficult for Buki to raise that average back up for the next season.
Quoted for truth.. this guy is just a regular GM player who left a tons of games on purpose and now he spends his BP on much worse players than him to stay in the GM league.
K CuHz, stop being so smart. He did it on purpose, he was not on tilt. Even when he is on tilt, he still plays GM or High Masters. How do I know this? I know him in real life. Thanks.
I support Buki, no reason to make a thread about this. People do it all the time to change races and what not. It's not their fault there is no other reliable way to reset your mmr.
On December 12 2011 04:50 DjRetro wrote: Wow... blizzard should ban him because of his brazenness and abuser attitude. This situation is pretty sad and could be considered as boycott of the blizzard's system.
He won't get a ban for this... If he wants to ladder and lose on purpose, that's his prerogative, it's not Blizzards business.
"Daxxarri Community Manager Please be aware that we will continue to take action against accounts of players found to be purposefully losing games (smurfing) in order to be placed in lower leagues. Intentionally losing games can be punished by suspension from the game or permanent closure of the account.
Blizzard can't systematically ban people for smurfing; they won't ban you unless a fuck ton of people complain. Besides, if there is any remote way the system can be abused, both benign and maliciously, it will be abused. Blizzard should spend less time enforcing, more time fixing. Not our fault they charge us $60 (soon to be $120-140~ in 2-3 years) for EACH and EVERY account with an alternate MMR.
On December 12 2011 04:50 DjRetro wrote: Wow... blizzard should ban him because of his brazenness and abuser attitude. This situation is pretty sad and could be considered as boycott of the blizzard's system.
He won't get a ban for this... If he wants to ladder and lose on purpose, that's his prerogative, it's not Blizzards business.
"Daxxarri Community Manager Please be aware that we will continue to take action against accounts of players found to be purposefully losing games (smurfing) in order to be placed in lower leagues. Intentionally losing games can be punished by suspension from the game or permanent closure of the account.
mBnBuki then went on a massive winning streak going 32-3 before being promoted to GM with the last loss...
This is confusing me, he's been in GM the whole time right? What's this promoting?
On December 12 2011 09:50 johngalt90 wrote: I don't feel what buki did was a bannable offense. It's blizzard's fault not his. I agree the gm system is stupid but it isnt buki's fault.
the ladder is made by blizzard, hence you can't do what blizzard feels isn't right
I think this is hilarious actually. It was pretty damn smart too. And he was just messing around so I don't think it's that serious. It's not like it was an actual bronze level player doing this.
On December 12 2011 06:51 Not_That wrote: For people like me who have great interest in the inner workings of the ladder system this is a golden opportunity. Having a GM player facing bronze-silver and up players mean we get a rare glimpse at the unadjusted points difference between GM league and the lower leagues. By collecting data from Buki's match history we can learn quite a lot. Unfortunately I am an EU player and don't have an account on the NA server, so I am unable to do so myself. If someone can step up and gather the following data it can help determine what is the unadjusted points difference between GM and each of the leagues (we already have a good estimate of the difference between GM and master), as well and figuring out the points won/lost formula and how it relates to the difference in unadjusted points between the 2 players.
I'm not sure how many people are interested in figuring out the unadjusted points difference of the ladder system (just how far is bronze from gm? silver from diamond?). Occasionally we get a thread asking how many tiers of skills exist in starcraft. Well, this is a rare opportunity to get closer to answering this question.
The following data should be collected: - Buki's points and his opponents points and league - match result and points earned / lost by both parties. It's important to disregard any bonus points won as they are meaningless for our purposes.
The most important matches are those where Buki's opponent has lost (or won) roughly 12 points. This will tell us that this opponent has his ladder points close to his MMR, which is vital when trying to gather insights from the match data.
(explanation: seeing how the ladder system matches 2 players who are close in MMR together, we can assume that most players who are playing Buki have MMR similar to Buki's at the time of their match. However an opponent who wins much higher than 12 points for a win or losses very few [or vice versa] is an opponent whose ladder points are still playing catchup with his MMR. This is likely due to the player having not played enough games for his points to stabilize yet, but might also be due to sudden change in skill, race change, etc)
*All points should be calculated as the players ladder points + unspent ladder points
It's requires some work gathering the data. Will someone step up and do it?
Now here are some of the more interesting games from his history. Read in ascending order. Perfect 12 games are marked with asterisks.
G-0 vs Jobby (lost 13 points), Gold league with (466 + 2 remaining bonus - 355 total bonus = 133) adjusted points at time of match. Buki won 1 point and had 0 points. This would mean that approximately a 2000-point gap would be worth +1/-23. *G-1 vs George (won 12 points), Gold league with 121 adjusted points at time of match. Buki lost 22 points, which was all he had. G-2 vs steelcurtain (lost 11 points), Gold league with 197 adjusted points at time of match. Buki won 1 point. *G-3 vs Broseph (lost 12 points), Gold league with 200 adjusted points at time of match. Buki won 1 point. G-4 vs Caliber (lost 13 points), Gold league with 219 adjusted points at time of match. Buki won 1(+1) point. G-5 vs SGFeedOnFire (lost 13 points), Gold league with 110 adjusted points at time of match. Buki won 1(+1) point. *G-7 vs BLITzNoble (lost 12 points), Gold league with 125 adjusted points at time of match. Buki won 1 point. *G-8 vs ZenGraffix (lost 12 points), Gold league with 102 adjusted points at time of match. Buki won 1 point. *G-9 vs Poiskail (lost 12 points), Gold league with 101 adjusted points at time of match. Buki won 1(+1) point. *G-14 vs oxypovijovi (lost 12 points), Silver league with 72 adjusted points at time of match. Buki won 1 point. G-15 vs Darkfaire (won 13 points), Silver league with 312 adjusted points at time of match. Buki lost 19 points, which was all he had. G-16 vs MoistProduct (lost 13 points), Silver league with 47 adjusted points at time of match. Buki won 1 point. G-17 vs Tiocrash (lost 13 points), Gold league with 102 adjusted points at time of match. Buki won 1 point. *G-18 vs MoJuckTerran (lost 12 points), Silver league with 183 adjusted points at time of match. Buki won 1 point. *G-19 vs Tanus (lost 12 points), Silver league with 129 adjusted points at time of match. Buki won 1(+1) point. G-20 vs MoreBlankets (lost 11 points), Silver league with 170 adjusted points at time of match. Buki won 1(+1) point. G-21 vs zero (lost 11 points), Silver league with 34 adjusted points at time of match. Buki won 1(+1) point. G-22 vs Vyse (lost 13 points), Silver league with 108 adjusted points at time of match. Buki won 1(+1) point.
Beyond this point it gets a little sketchy because opponents are more likely to have longer match histories which may not necessary reflect their league or MMR at the time of their game against Buki. The rest of these match results are less than 24 hours old.
Who cares? He's just trolling bronzes who will see that he's GM after they lose -- that's hilarious! Even a bronze wouldn't mind (unless it happened over and over, which I sincerely doubt will happen with Bronze's huge playerpool).
On December 12 2011 06:51 Not_That wrote: For people like me who have great interest in the inner workings of the ladder system this is a golden opportunity. Having a GM player facing bronze-silver and up players mean we get a rare glimpse at the unadjusted points difference between GM league and the lower leagues. By collecting data from Buki's match history we can learn quite a lot. Unfortunately I am an EU player and don't have an account on the NA server, so I am unable to do so myself. If someone can step up and gather the following data it can help determine what is the unadjusted points difference between GM and each of the leagues (we already have a good estimate of the difference between GM and master), as well and figuring out the points won/lost formula and how it relates to the difference in unadjusted points between the 2 players.
I'm not sure how many people are interested in figuring out the unadjusted points difference of the ladder system (just how far is bronze from gm? silver from diamond?). Occasionally we get a thread asking how many tiers of skills exist in starcraft. Well, this is a rare opportunity to get closer to answering this question.
The following data should be collected: - Buki's points and his opponents points and league - match result and points earned / lost by both parties. It's important to disregard any bonus points won as they are meaningless for our purposes.
The most important matches are those where Buki's opponent has lost (or won) roughly 12 points. This will tell us that this opponent has his ladder points close to his MMR, which is vital when trying to gather insights from the match data.
(explanation: seeing how the ladder system matches 2 players who are close in MMR together, we can assume that most players who are playing Buki have MMR similar to Buki's at the time of their match. However an opponent who wins much higher than 12 points for a win or losses very few [or vice versa] is an opponent whose ladder points are still playing catchup with his MMR. This is likely due to the player having not played enough games for his points to stabilize yet, but might also be due to sudden change in skill, race change, etc)
*All points should be calculated as the players ladder points + unspent ladder points
It's requires some work gathering the data. Will someone step up and do it?
Now here are some of the more interesting games from his history. Read in ascending order. Perfect 12 games are marked with asterisks.
G-0 vs Jobby (lost 13 points), Gold league with (466 + 2 remaining bonus - 355 total bonus = 133) adjusted points at time of match. Buki won 1 point and had 0 points. This would mean that approximately a 2000-point gap would be worth +1/-23. *G-1 vs George (won 12 points), Gold league with 121 adjusted points at time of match. Buki lost 22 points, which was all he had. G-2 vs steelcurtain (lost 11 points), Gold league with 197 adjusted points at time of match. Buki won 1 point. *G-3 vs Broseph (lost 12 points), Gold league with 200 adjusted points at time of match. Buki won 1 point. G-4 vs Caliber (lost 13 points), Gold league with 219 adjusted points at time of match. Buki won 1(+1) point. G-5 vs SGFeedOnFire (lost 13 points), Gold league with 110 adjusted points at time of match. Buki won 1(+1) point. *G-7 vs BLITzNoble (lost 12 points), Gold league with 125 adjusted points at time of match. Buki won 1 point. *G-8 vs ZenGraffix (lost 12 points), Gold league with 102 adjusted points at time of match. Buki won 1 point. *G-9 vs Poiskail (lost 12 points), Gold league with 101 adjusted points at time of match. Buki won 1(+1) point. *G-14 vs oxypovijovi (lost 12 points), Silver league with 72 adjusted points at time of match. Buki won 1 point. G-15 vs Darkfaire (won 13 points), Silver league with 312 adjusted points at time of match. Buki lost 19 points, which was all he had. G-16 vs MoistProduct (lost 13 points), Silver league with 47 adjusted points at time of match. Buki won 1 point. G-17 vs Tiocrash (lost 13 points), Gold league with 102 adjusted points at time of match. Buki won 1 point. *G-18 vs MoJuckTerran (lost 12 points), Silver league with 183 adjusted points at time of match. Buki won 1 point. *G-19 vs Tanus (lost 12 points), Silver league with 129 adjusted points at time of match. Buki won 1(+1) point. G-20 vs MoreBlankets (lost 11 points), Silver league with 170 adjusted points at time of match. Buki won 1(+1) point. G-21 vs zero (lost 11 points), Silver league with 34 adjusted points at time of match. Buki won 1(+1) point. G-22 vs Vyse (lost 13 points), Silver league with 108 adjusted points at time of match. Buki won 1(+1) point.
Beyond this point it gets a little sketchy because opponents are more likely to have longer match histories which may not necessary reflect their league or MMR at the time of their game against Buki. The rest of these match results are less than 24 hours old.
I'm happy to see a reply to my post. You are indeed very helpful Excalibur_Z =)
I asked a question about your method in the thread where Blizzard announced the points required for a promotion at the end of a season and didn't get a reply (can be found here), and I think a similar issue arises here. I don't see why you use the following:
Bronze: 0-835 Silver: 836-1270 etc...
for the reasons I started in my linked post.
Having said that, I thank you for posting the 22 games here. As far as I understand it, we can learn one thing from them, and that is that 0 points in GM league (minus -605 points adjusted) is sufficiently higher than 219 adjusted points in Gold league (game #4) so that the GM player wins the minimal amount of points (1). All other matches are against players in lower leagues or lower adjusted points values, so naturally the same applies to them.
We know that a player with 0 points in GM as of yesterday, had roughly (minus) -605 adjusted points in GM league (the approximate bonus pool of GM players, as of yesterday). So we know that -605 points in GM, when faced vs a +219 points in (some tier of) Gold, gets the minimal amount of points. There is 824 (= 219 + 605) adjusted points difference between them so that is a lower barrier on the difference between GM and Gold league. To this lower barrier we can add a certain amount to represent that they are not evenly matched by the system and the GM player is entirely favoured. Just how many points is it is open for debate, but I think at least 200 adjusted points is a reasonable lower amount for one player to be entirely favoured.
Bottom line I think we can deduce that the adjusted points difference between GM and (some tier) Gold league is AT LEAST ~1024 ( = 824 + 200) points.
We also know that GM league is roughly 430 (thanks Excalibur_Z) adjusted points above master league, so in the same manner we can say that Master league is AT LEAST 614 ( = 1024 - 430) adjusted points higher than (some tier) Gold.
Until buki raises his MMR and plays platinum opponents (or higher points Gold players), looking at his matches won't teach us anything new (beside the fact that 1 point is minimum amount you can get for a win - no 0 point wins, which some of you may have known already, but is news for me).
Buki, if you are reading this, could you please raise your MMR to play against platinum-diamond opponents and get sufficient amount of games vs opponents where you start winning more than a single point, and losing less than the maximum amount? Would be much appreciated =)
It's just really bad that Buki is abusing the system like this, I am currently ranked number 5 in NA and I would like to get a GM spot asap, so someone who is there and not getting kicked out because hes playing Bronze players makes me feel like I'm getting robbed =/.
You are getting robbed, but not by Buki. Blizzard designed GM league in such a way that the only way out is inactivity. You should be looking at them instead.
LOL, I messaged him online on why he's doing this, and he replied that his gf got mad. Apparently, she logged on his account and lose a bunch of games on purpose cause she was pissed that he played to much sc
On December 13 2011 07:50 Adastrom wrote: LOL, I messaged him online on why he's doing this, and he replied that his gf got mad. Apparently, she logged on his account and lose a bunch of games on purpose cause she was pissed that he played to much sc
Whether that's true or not it's still pretty hilarious. An entire thread about the flaws and intricacies of MMR and leagues can be reduced to a woman scorned.
On December 13 2011 07:50 Adastrom wrote: LOL, I messaged him online on why he's doing this, and he replied that his gf got mad. Apparently, she logged on his account and lose a bunch of games on purpose cause she was pissed that he played to much sc
Whether that's true or not it's still pretty hilarious. An entire thread about the flaws and intricacies of MMR and leagues can be reduced to a woman scorned.
I would have posted a screenshot if i print screened it :/, I basically told him that I thought it was better if he was to be more committed to his gf instead of continuously trying to restore his mmr points. He replied that he should be doing that probably but continued to ladder regardless >_>
On December 11 2011 21:40 CanucksJC wrote: You can't ban him for throwing 130 games lol Also I have no idea how he did this, I've done this myself too, throwing myself in bronze, i've won literally 100 in a row but I was still in bronze...
Yes, you can. Blizzard said it's a bannable offense.
Saying and doing are two completely different things. Has anyone ever heard of someone being banned for losing on purpose? Do you know how many people they would have to ban for this once they started? Easily in the thousands, if not tens of thousands, and those are thousands of potential customers who won't be buying the SC2 expansions if you ban them.
On December 11 2011 21:40 CanucksJC wrote: You can't ban him for throwing 130 games lol Also I have no idea how he did this, I've done this myself too, throwing myself in bronze, i've won literally 100 in a row but I was still in bronze...
Yes, you can. Blizzard said it's a bannable offense.
Saying and doing are two completely different things. Has anyone ever heard of someone being banned for losing on purpose? Do you know how many people they would have to ban for this once they started? Easily in the thousands, if not tens of thousands, and those are thousands of potential customers who won't be buying the SC2 expansions if you ban them.
Like most of their policies, they've only made it in case they need it. They have no intention of ever banning someone for smurfing. They just clearly stated the rule so that on the off chance they do need to ban someone for it they can say "you know the rules."
Not because of some gay rank, but because he purposefully loses so that he can win against bad players.
HAHAHA! They're so bad! It's funny!
Yeah because I didn't pay for the game too, assholes. No I don't want a legit match, I either want a free win or a stomping by a grandmaster. That's why I spent $60 on this thing.
You know what would be hilarious? To have the Pittsburgh Steelers play against pee-wee football teams. But it's ok because we'll just have them forfeit half the games! So the kids can either get owned or they can just not play. That sounds fun as hell!
On August 09 2011 02:57 Ravencruiser wrote: ... P.S. Blizzard policy forbids what I do, but honestly there's no way they can detect/stop me for what I do. I mean, they could technically implement a detection algorithm where a player losing ~15 games in under 0:02 seconds in a row would result in warnings/bans, but if it gets to that point I'd just win 1-5 games, then quit another 1-5 games so my MMR would still stay far below my skill level and enable me to win 99% of the games that I do play and thus avoid the detection algorithm.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/w22IC.jpg)
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mBnbuki was most definitely in GM at the start of the ladder season. he's a strong player; agreed that the OP is definitely misleading in that regard.
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