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On November 16 2011 05:51 IPA wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 05:48 windsupernova wrote:On November 16 2011 04:01 Dfgj wrote:On November 16 2011 02:42 windsupernova wrote:On November 16 2011 02:33 MrTortoise wrote:On November 16 2011 02:30 Condor Hero wrote:On November 16 2011 02:08 Emma Watson wrote:
Extremely disappointed in Boxer. As the wise mentor of team Slayers you would expect him to be strict, but also to be lenient and forgiving. Handing out such harsh punishment to a kid like Coca....I don't know, I imagined Boxer to be a White-Ra/Gandalf-like person who takes the context of Coca's actions into account and judges accordingly.
Boxer's reaction to this whole thing was equivalent to a overly eager dad who catches his son stealing a candybar and proceeds to beat the shit out of him, so the other parents don't think he is a bad father.
I am a social worker myself and let me tell you this: Kids make mistakes, your job as an adult is make sure that they learn from it by giving them second chances. And lets be clear: Coca's actions were well-intentioned, but he chose the wrong way to go about it.
What the fuck are you talking about? Do you have any idea what Boxer and other people gave up for progaming to be a legitimate career? Esports was sold on the passion of the players and fans. Nobody gives a shit that Coca is a "kid." He's a progamer on Slayers so he should be counted on to be professional. aww did your parents and teachers give you a hard time? the point is that kids are not able to undesrtand the consequences of their actions - in fact a lot of adults cant either (which is fueling some interesting legal debates). As such punishment that could seriously damage their improvement and progression does nobody any favors. What if one of these kids coul dof been the next boxer ... but did something stupid and met the anger of all othe other people out there that are pissed off at life and want to see someone crucified to make them feel better? Whats with the smugness in your post? Those kids are 17 and 18. And how do you teach people that there are consequences to their actions? By making them live through the consequences. And how this is hampering their improvement? They didn't get kicked out of their teams, only a few unreasonable humans are the ones wanting to see them crucified(see the posts that say the punishment was not enough) If anything it seems you are the one angry at life here lol. Jessica, boxer and gerard are not their parents, they are the team managers, they have to respond to their sponsors and to their fans, if one of the members of their team act in a way to embarass their organizations they have all the right in the world to punish them. Punishment may be harsh, but crucifying? Not really 18 isn't a 'kid' anymore, to add to that. 18 is old enough to be drafted in Korea. Age is not an excuse here. Did you read my post? because thats what I was saying lol I couldn't disagree more. I made countless mistakes at age 18, even into my early 20s. I suppose you guys were ministers by then. It's old enough to take responsibility (which they are doing); it's young enough to make it semi-understandable. Jesus, did you guys ever have fun or get into trouble?
Gee, I didn't realize that having fun was the same as doing something illegal, but if it is, then you have to be prepared to deal with the consequences of breaking the rules. If your argument is that he should be allowed to act in an immature manner, then he's clearly not mature enough to play in legitimate tournaments for thousands of dollars. But I'm hoping that he eventually recognizes that what he did was incredibly stupid and that it shouldn't be taken lightly.
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On November 16 2011 05:44 fleeze wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 05:26 slicknav wrote:On November 16 2011 05:21 S_SienZ wrote:
I don't understand how people are actually defending CoCa's actions using the "he wanted some Terran practice" argument. He could have easily knocked Byun out and played customs with him to do it without sacrificing the integrity and legitimacy of the tournament. thats the dumbest argument people are making. He's on Slayers, while in the team house he can blindly throw an empty can and chances are it will land on a terran player he can practice with this just shows that you are even unable to read the chatlog posted. the argument is totally valid. there was no code A spot on the line and he actually had no terran practise partners in house because the rest of SlayerS was at another LAN event. i think SlayerS is doing this to move the issue away from their own faults. Giving your only Code S zerg no practise partners for his next matches against 3 terrans? that's not professional, but somehow in line with the Yugioh incident.
What's the "Yugioh incident"?
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On November 16 2011 06:02 thepuppyassassin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 05:44 fleeze wrote:On November 16 2011 05:26 slicknav wrote:On November 16 2011 05:21 S_SienZ wrote:
I don't understand how people are actually defending CoCa's actions using the "he wanted some Terran practice" argument. He could have easily knocked Byun out and played customs with him to do it without sacrificing the integrity and legitimacy of the tournament. thats the dumbest argument people are making. He's on Slayers, while in the team house he can blindly throw an empty can and chances are it will land on a terran player he can practice with this just shows that you are even unable to read the chatlog posted. the argument is totally valid. there was no code A spot on the line and he actually had no terran practise partners in house because the rest of SlayerS was at another LAN event. i think SlayerS is doing this to move the issue away from their own faults. Giving your only Code S zerg no practise partners for his next matches against 3 terrans? that's not professional, but somehow in line with the Yugioh incident. What's the "Yugioh incident"?
Probably referring to MMA picking YuGiOh during Code S group selection. He also told MVP to pick him.
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
On November 16 2011 06:02 thepuppyassassin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 05:44 fleeze wrote:On November 16 2011 05:26 slicknav wrote:On November 16 2011 05:21 S_SienZ wrote:
I don't understand how people are actually defending CoCa's actions using the "he wanted some Terran practice" argument. He could have easily knocked Byun out and played customs with him to do it without sacrificing the integrity and legitimacy of the tournament. thats the dumbest argument people are making. He's on Slayers, while in the team house he can blindly throw an empty can and chances are it will land on a terran player he can practice with this just shows that you are even unable to read the chatlog posted. the argument is totally valid. there was no code A spot on the line and he actually had no terran practise partners in house because the rest of SlayerS was at another LAN event. i think SlayerS is doing this to move the issue away from their own faults. Giving your only Code S zerg no practise partners for his next matches against 3 terrans? that's not professional, but somehow in line with the Yugioh incident. What's the "Yugioh incident"?
I think he's talking about when yugioh made code S MMA told MVP to pick him and then picked yugioh himself and he didn't sit with slayers if I remember correctly he was pretty much treated like dirt at the group selections.
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On November 16 2011 05:41 IPA wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 05:12 Djzapz wrote:On November 16 2011 04:59 IPA wrote:On November 16 2011 04:57 Slangen wrote:
This is just sick.. Cant belive CoCa went for that! He was one of my biggest up and comers! Im not a CoCa fanboy anymore. Boxer will be ashamed of you :/ He's a kid, relax. He made a mistake. All the holier-than-thous coming out of the woodwork on TL, every time. ...Holier-than-thou? You realize that people say that when it comes down to normative things? Of course I'm "holier" than CoCa after he's shown to be pretty much objectively reprehensible. The whole holier-than-thou thing you pulled applies to people who come up with subjective "ideas" and present them as fact and such. . Adj. 1. holier-than-thou - excessively or hypocritically pious It is used when people express sanctimonious attitudes while turning a blind eye to their own myriad faults and mistakes. I used it correctly. This topic has been filled with holier-than-thous.
Since I haven't been perfect, I can't criticize someone who's faults are more important than my own? Come on, that definition is not in touch with its real use.
Anyone criticizing anyone fits between the boundaries of that blatantly useless definition of "holier than thou". You can just pull that BS every time someone is criticized for doing something bad...
For all I care, murderers are allowed to criticize the poor decisions of politicians and their opinion's not any less valid because they killed someone. Those players did something bad and it's a logical fallacy to imply that it's less true because other people do bad things too.
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On November 16 2011 05:51 IPA wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 05:48 windsupernova wrote:On November 16 2011 04:01 Dfgj wrote:On November 16 2011 02:42 windsupernova wrote:On November 16 2011 02:33 MrTortoise wrote:On November 16 2011 02:30 Condor Hero wrote:On November 16 2011 02:08 Emma Watson wrote:
Extremely disappointed in Boxer. As the wise mentor of team Slayers you would expect him to be strict, but also to be lenient and forgiving. Handing out such harsh punishment to a kid like Coca....I don't know, I imagined Boxer to be a White-Ra/Gandalf-like person who takes the context of Coca's actions into account and judges accordingly.
Boxer's reaction to this whole thing was equivalent to a overly eager dad who catches his son stealing a candybar and proceeds to beat the shit out of him, so the other parents don't think he is a bad father.
I am a social worker myself and let me tell you this: Kids make mistakes, your job as an adult is make sure that they learn from it by giving them second chances. And lets be clear: Coca's actions were well-intentioned, but he chose the wrong way to go about it.
What the fuck are you talking about? Do you have any idea what Boxer and other people gave up for progaming to be a legitimate career? Esports was sold on the passion of the players and fans. Nobody gives a shit that Coca is a "kid." He's a progamer on Slayers so he should be counted on to be professional. aww did your parents and teachers give you a hard time? the point is that kids are not able to undesrtand the consequences of their actions - in fact a lot of adults cant either (which is fueling some interesting legal debates). As such punishment that could seriously damage their improvement and progression does nobody any favors. What if one of these kids coul dof been the next boxer ... but did something stupid and met the anger of all othe other people out there that are pissed off at life and want to see someone crucified to make them feel better? Whats with the smugness in your post? Those kids are 17 and 18. And how do you teach people that there are consequences to their actions? By making them live through the consequences. And how this is hampering their improvement? They didn't get kicked out of their teams, only a few unreasonable humans are the ones wanting to see them crucified(see the posts that say the punishment was not enough) If anything it seems you are the one angry at life here lol. Jessica, boxer and gerard are not their parents, they are the team managers, they have to respond to their sponsors and to their fans, if one of the members of their team act in a way to embarass their organizations they have all the right in the world to punish them. Punishment may be harsh, but crucifying? Not really 18 isn't a 'kid' anymore, to add to that. 18 is old enough to be drafted in Korea. Age is not an excuse here. Did you read my post? because thats what I was saying lol I couldn't disagree more. I made countless mistakes at age 18, even into my early 20s. I suppose you guys were ministers by then. It's old enough to take responsibility (which they are doing); it's young enough to make it semi-understandable. Jesus, did you guys ever have fun or get into trouble?
Nobody is claiming to be flawless. Unfortunately you have to live with the consequences of your actions, whether you are 10 15 or 100 years old.
They screwed up, they are getting punished by this. Poor guys but its their mistake. I don't think anybody is claiming that they are perfect.
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On November 16 2011 05:45 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 05:42 hmunkey wrote:On November 16 2011 05:41 S_SienZ wrote:On November 16 2011 05:40 hmunkey wrote:
Not really sure if I find Coca at fault here. He was in a tournament where winning wouldn't really give him a real prize, so why would he have an incentive to win? He could have just not signed up then. Oh yeah of course, but I don't think the punishment has been proportionate to the "crime." I beg to differ. It's certainly a lot lighter than what saviOr received. Both players are young. A little "time-out" by their respective teams won't damage their career much in the long run. If anything it'll definitely ensure that they think twice before pulling stuff like this again. Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 05:44 fleeze wrote:
this just shows that you are even unable to read the chatlog posted.
the argument is totally valid. there was no code A spot on the line and he actually had no terran practise partners in house because the rest of SlayerS was at another LAN event.
i think SlayerS is doing this to move the issue away from their own faults. Giving your only Code S zerg no practise partners for his next matches against 3 terrans? that's not professional, but somehow in line with the Yugioh incident. 2 wrongs does not make 1 right. Also, it's perfectly within SlayerS rights to balance out the assignments of practice partners and sending players out for LANs as they see fit. OK, I've looked at the chatlog at least 5 times now. Please show me which part says that he's lacking practice partners. Also, answer me why couldn't he just knock Byun out and play a normal custom game with him?
just comparing this case to saviors case disqualifies your opinion. it's extremly different to FIX an OSL match and bet money on it compared to a random online tournament with 100$ prize playing a friend in the first rounds...
and can't you read yourself?
3:48
B: fuck, you said you'll let me win
C: I have to practice, there's 3 Ts in my group
...
C: I'm here just because I don't have other Ts to practice
B: Next opponent is P, so just forfeit
B: Where's your teams T?
C: G-star event
On November 16 2011 06:06 Fusilero wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 06:02 thepuppyassassin wrote:On November 16 2011 05:44 fleeze wrote:On November 16 2011 05:26 slicknav wrote:On November 16 2011 05:21 S_SienZ wrote:
I don't understand how people are actually defending CoCa's actions using the "he wanted some Terran practice" argument. He could have easily knocked Byun out and played customs with him to do it without sacrificing the integrity and legitimacy of the tournament. thats the dumbest argument people are making. He's on Slayers, while in the team house he can blindly throw an empty can and chances are it will land on a terran player he can practice with this just shows that you are even unable to read the chatlog posted. the argument is totally valid. there was no code A spot on the line and he actually had no terran practise partners in house because the rest of SlayerS was at another LAN event. i think SlayerS is doing this to move the issue away from their own faults. Giving your only Code S zerg no practise partners for his next matches against 3 terrans? that's not professional, but somehow in line with the Yugioh incident. What's the "Yugioh incident"? I think he's talking about when yugioh made code S MMA told MVP to pick him and then picked yugioh himself and he didn't sit with slayers if I remember correctly he was pretty much treated like dirt at the group selections.
yep, this is the Yugioh incident i meant.
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On November 16 2011 06:10 fleeze wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 05:45 S_SienZ wrote:On November 16 2011 05:42 hmunkey wrote:On November 16 2011 05:41 S_SienZ wrote:On November 16 2011 05:40 hmunkey wrote:
Not really sure if I find Coca at fault here. He was in a tournament where winning wouldn't really give him a real prize, so why would he have an incentive to win? He could have just not signed up then. Oh yeah of course, but I don't think the punishment has been proportionate to the "crime." I beg to differ. It's certainly a lot lighter than what saviOr received. Both players are young. A little "time-out" by their respective teams won't damage their career much in the long run. If anything it'll definitely ensure that they think twice before pulling stuff like this again. On November 16 2011 05:44 fleeze wrote:
this just shows that you are even unable to read the chatlog posted.
the argument is totally valid. there was no code A spot on the line and he actually had no terran practise partners in house because the rest of SlayerS was at another LAN event.
i think SlayerS is doing this to move the issue away from their own faults. Giving your only Code S zerg no practise partners for his next matches against 3 terrans? that's not professional, but somehow in line with the Yugioh incident. 2 wrongs does not make 1 right. Also, it's perfectly within SlayerS rights to balance out the assignments of practice partners and sending players out for LANs as they see fit. OK, I've looked at the chatlog at least 5 times now. Please show me which part says that he's lacking practice partners. Also, answer me why couldn't he just knock Byun out and play a normal custom game with him? just comparing this case to saviors case disqualifies your opinion. it's extremly different to FIX an OSL match and bet money on it compared to a random online tournament with 100$ prize playing a friend in the first rounds... and can't you read yourself? 3:48 B: fuck, you said you'll let me win C: I have to practice, there's 3 Ts in my group ... C: I'm here just because I don't have other Ts to practice B: Next opponent is P, so just forfeit B: Where's your teams T? C: G-star event
Honestly can't find that chatlog anywhere in the OP. Is it somewhere in the middle?
Anyways, why is it not comparable to saviOr? Minor or major it's still match-fixing, similar to how it doesn't matter whether you steal a pen or a car. The charge is the same, the only difference is degree hence, the degree of punishment as well. It's not exactly apples and oranges, rather an apple with a bigger apple.
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On November 16 2011 06:15 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 06:10 fleeze wrote:On November 16 2011 05:45 S_SienZ wrote:On November 16 2011 05:42 hmunkey wrote:On November 16 2011 05:41 S_SienZ wrote:On November 16 2011 05:40 hmunkey wrote:
Not really sure if I find Coca at fault here. He was in a tournament where winning wouldn't really give him a real prize, so why would he have an incentive to win? He could have just not signed up then. Oh yeah of course, but I don't think the punishment has been proportionate to the "crime." I beg to differ. It's certainly a lot lighter than what saviOr received. Both players are young. A little "time-out" by their respective teams won't damage their career much in the long run. If anything it'll definitely ensure that they think twice before pulling stuff like this again. On November 16 2011 05:44 fleeze wrote:
this just shows that you are even unable to read the chatlog posted.
the argument is totally valid. there was no code A spot on the line and he actually had no terran practise partners in house because the rest of SlayerS was at another LAN event.
i think SlayerS is doing this to move the issue away from their own faults. Giving your only Code S zerg no practise partners for his next matches against 3 terrans? that's not professional, but somehow in line with the Yugioh incident. 2 wrongs does not make 1 right. Also, it's perfectly within SlayerS rights to balance out the assignments of practice partners and sending players out for LANs as they see fit. OK, I've looked at the chatlog at least 5 times now. Please show me which part says that he's lacking practice partners. Also, answer me why couldn't he just knock Byun out and play a normal custom game with him? just comparing this case to saviors case disqualifies your opinion. it's extremly different to FIX an OSL match and bet money on it compared to a random online tournament with 100$ prize playing a friend in the first rounds... and can't you read yourself? 3:48 B: fuck, you said you'll let me win C: I have to practice, there's 3 Ts in my group ... C: I'm here just because I don't have other Ts to practice B: Next opponent is P, so just forfeit B: Where's your teams T? C: G-star event Honestly can't find that chatlog anywhere in the OP. Is it somewhere in the middle? Anyways, why is it not comparable to saviOr? Minor or major it's still match-fixing, similar to how it doesn't matter whether you steal a pen or a car. The charge is the same, the only difference is degree hence, the degree of punishment as well. It's not exactly apples and oranges, rather an apple with a bigger apple.
it's in the thread and you should probably read it before making a statement yourself. also as is revealed in the thread too and it might be surprising but you just said you want idra, demuslim, stephano, brat_ok and a few other pros banned because they basically did the same. just look up the posts and read the damn thread before making such statements...
and why should you compare it to match fixing at all? it was 2 friends joking around in the first round of an unimportant tournament, where other koreans forfeit matches all day... but Coca wanted the practise out of the matches at least. this is totally blown out of proportion. there was no money involved and Coca got nothing out of it.
edit:
for those too lazy to search:
On November 15 2011 23:47 figq wrote:Reposted for clarity: + Show Spoiler [Mr Chae's statements] + http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=285580¤tpage=4#76On November 15 2011 13:35 Clefairy wrote:VOD with wtf moment: http://www.twitch.tv/esvision/b/300029464?t=55m00sMr Chae's official statement:Hello this is Mr Chae. ESV TV is a foreign tournament that formed a partnership with the GSL and awarded players with GSL Nov. Code A seeds. However a partnership has not been confirmed for the GSL's first season of Code A in 2012, and we are still negotiating with ESV TV at the moment (this is because we are gathering feedback from all the teams on the GSL format during this Nov. season so any changes in format for 2012 may not accommodate a partnership). However, even if it is a tournament that does not award GSL Code A seeds, the use of profanities in a broadcast with many viewers and a blatant disregard for competition cannot be ignored by the GSL. We are unable to make a decision on the punishment yet based on only screenshots and the community. Therefore, we will be asking Prime and SlayerS about the situation and what further action should be taken. The consequences that the players will need to face will be announced as soon as possible after the situation has been assessed. Thank you. Source: http://esports.gomtv.com/gsl/community/view.gom?mbid=1&msgid=23901&p=1Mr Chae's unofficial statement:![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/X4OHM.jpg) Control your brains as well. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=285580¤tpage=7#134On November 15 2011 13:43 Tanatos wrote:Full translation 슬레이어스가 ESV TV 코리안 위클리 시즌4 ‘고의 패배’ 사건에 대해 공식 사과하고 최종환을 집으로 돌려보냈다. Team SlayerS apologize about what happen to Coca's 'match fixing' during the ESV TV Korean Weekly S4 and send Coca back to home. 슬레이어스 김가연 게임단주는 “슬레이어스에 소속된 선수가 온라인 대회에서 고의 패배로 물의를 일으켜 죄송하다”고 말한 뒤 “이번 사건은 대회의 규모나 경기의 중요도에 관계없이 e스포츠 팬들에게 오해를 줄 수 있는 명백한 실수다. 팀 소속 선수에 대한 관리가 부족했던 것을 반성하고, 앞으로는 절대로 이런 일이 재발하지 않도록 노력하겠다”고 말했다. Manager SlayerSJessica said, "I am sorry about what happen to one of SlayerS member during the online tournament." "This is complete mistake from us to e-sports fans to cause misundertanding with no matter of importance nor size of tournament. I regret about reckless management and I will work hard to prevent such an incident ever again." 임요환 역시 “과거 승부조작 파문이 어떤 결과를 초래했는지 모두 알고 있다. 비록 온라인에서 진행된 일이라고 할지라도 선수로서 절대 해선 안될 일을 저지른 것”이라고 말한 뒤 “팀의 맏형으로서 사과 드리고, 이번 사건이 얼마나 나쁜 일인지 선수들에게 인지시키고 더 멋진 경기를 보여드릴 수 있도록 노력하겠다”고 덧붙였다. Boxer also said, "We all know what result match fix scandal has caused. Even in online tournament, this is a non-exceptable matter as progamer." "I apologize as big brother of the team, and I will remind how terrible it is to other players, and we will work hard to show you better games." 슬레이어스는 이번 사건의 책임을 물어 최종환을 2군으로 강등시키고 집으로 귀가 시켰다. 또한, 자숙과 반성의 의미로 앞으로 펼쳐지는 국내외 모든 스타2 대회에 최종환을 출전시키지 않는다고 말했다. 슬레이어스의 이번 징계는 무기한 조치이며, 최종환이 대회에 출전할 수 있는 상황이 됐다고 판단했을 때 복귀할 수 있다. SlayerS asked responsiblity of this incident to Coca and place him to B team and set him home. Also, by the meaning of self-reflect, SlayerS will ban Coca to any Starcraft 2 matches inside of Korea and rest of the world. This decision is for an indefinite period, and Coca will be back to SC2 when he is ready. 사건의 당사자인 최종환은 반성의 의미로 소니에릭슨 GSL 시즌7 코드S를 기권했다. 최종환은 이번 사건의 책임을 통감하고 스스로 코드S 잔여경기 출전을 포기하고 자숙하기로 결정했다. 이에 따라 최종환은 오는 16일 열리는 소니에릭슨 GSL 시즌7 코드S 16강 C조 경기에 출전하지 않는다. Coca has forfeit the GSL Nov. Code S for meaning of self-reflect. Coca himself has felt responsible to this incident and forfeit the rest of matches. So, Coca will not be on GSL Code S RO16 Group C match on 16th. 한편, 곰TV는 커뮤니티 공지를 통해 이번 사건에 대한 공식입장을 발표했다. 채정원 팀장은 ESV TV와 GSL의 연계와 관련된 내용을 설명하고, 공식적인 확인 절차가 끝난 뒤 선수들에 대한 징계나 처벌에 대해 공식 발표하겠다고 밝혔다. GomTV has announced their official comment on community board. Mr. Chae has explained relationship between ESV TV and GSL. After their official comfirmation, discipline action on players will be announced. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=285580¤tpage=40#790On November 15 2011 16:11 anrimayu wrote:Here's the chat log in question. I omitted parts that are irrelevant. 1:00 C: i'll let you win B: fuck off. 3:48 B: fuck, you said you'll let me win C: I have to practice, there's 3 Ts in my group ... C: I'm here just because I don't have other Ts to practice B: Next opponent is P, so just forfeit B: Where's your teams T? C: G-star event 26:20, Coca at 150pop 4 mining bases to Byun's 45pop 0 mining base B: fuck, get out, fuck fuck C: I forfeit B: let's do game 3 too C: gg *leaves the game Also clarification: Coca and Byun are really good friends, and known for somewhat playful character in events.
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On November 16 2011 06:22 fleeze wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 06:15 S_SienZ wrote:On November 16 2011 06:10 fleeze wrote:On November 16 2011 05:45 S_SienZ wrote:On November 16 2011 05:42 hmunkey wrote:On November 16 2011 05:41 S_SienZ wrote:On November 16 2011 05:40 hmunkey wrote:
Not really sure if I find Coca at fault here. He was in a tournament where winning wouldn't really give him a real prize, so why would he have an incentive to win? He could have just not signed up then. Oh yeah of course, but I don't think the punishment has been proportionate to the "crime." I beg to differ. It's certainly a lot lighter than what saviOr received. Both players are young. A little "time-out" by their respective teams won't damage their career much in the long run. If anything it'll definitely ensure that they think twice before pulling stuff like this again. On November 16 2011 05:44 fleeze wrote:
this just shows that you are even unable to read the chatlog posted.
the argument is totally valid. there was no code A spot on the line and he actually had no terran practise partners in house because the rest of SlayerS was at another LAN event.
i think SlayerS is doing this to move the issue away from their own faults. Giving your only Code S zerg no practise partners for his next matches against 3 terrans? that's not professional, but somehow in line with the Yugioh incident. 2 wrongs does not make 1 right. Also, it's perfectly within SlayerS rights to balance out the assignments of practice partners and sending players out for LANs as they see fit. OK, I've looked at the chatlog at least 5 times now. Please show me which part says that he's lacking practice partners. Also, answer me why couldn't he just knock Byun out and play a normal custom game with him? just comparing this case to saviors case disqualifies your opinion. it's extremly different to FIX an OSL match and bet money on it compared to a random online tournament with 100$ prize playing a friend in the first rounds... and can't you read yourself? 3:48 B: fuck, you said you'll let me win C: I have to practice, there's 3 Ts in my group ... C: I'm here just because I don't have other Ts to practice B: Next opponent is P, so just forfeit B: Where's your teams T? C: G-star event Honestly can't find that chatlog anywhere in the OP. Is it somewhere in the middle? Anyways, why is it not comparable to saviOr? Minor or major it's still match-fixing, similar to how it doesn't matter whether you steal a pen or a car. The charge is the same, the only difference is degree hence, the degree of punishment as well. It's not exactly apples and oranges, rather an apple with a bigger apple. it's in the thread and you should probably read it before making a statement yourself. also as is revealed in the thread too and it might be surprising but you just said you want idra, demuslim, stephano, brat_ok and a few other pros banned because they basically did the same. just look up the posts and read the damn thread before making such statements... and why should you compare it to match fixing at all? it was 2 friends joking around in the first round of an unimportant tournament, where other koreans forfeit matches all day... but Coca wanted the practise out of the matches at least. this is totally blown out of proportion. there was no money involved and Coca got nothing out of it.
I did mention my thoughts regarding Stephano v Brat_OK somewhere in the thread. It's a completely different scenario there.
I usually post with the assumption that all relevant info is in the OP. No way I'm going through nearly 80 pages just to get all the facts straight. Being a law student I already go through cases on a daily basis, and it's the last thing I want to do on TL.
An unimportant tournament (which is totally subjective btw) is still a tournament, which players should respect. It's wrong because on CoCa's end he could have handled the situation a lot better than what he did. If he wanted Byun to advance he could have just forfeited the series and not play at all. If he wanted just the practice he could have hit Byun up for some custom games outside the tournament. With the way he handled it, not only it showed disrespect to the ESV Weekly, but it also casted SlayerS in a very unprofessional light.
The decision done by SlayerS is a good one imo, it's exactly decisions like these that prevent eSports from overextending itself. Players should not be allowed to play for as much money as they are if they can't even behave up to the standards set, especially considering the current growth of eSports is exactly what the likes of BoxeR has done much to realise.
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How stupid can you be? Really. I mean match fixing is terrible, but they quite literally declared to everyone who was watching that they were doing it. Makes no sense. Really a shame too, because Coca has been on fire as of late.
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WHAT?!?!? T-T I can't believe this... just no.
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oh wow. This is kind of crazy... So stupid by both players, glad the teams are taking action.
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sad to see a great zerg do something like that. makes me sad
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I was watching that last night. I guess i missed the biggest part LOL.
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Anyone who thinks the punishment is too harsh might be forgetting the sAviOr fiasco in BW. This kind of mindset, that you can just let your friend win a major tournament match because it's not a big deal to you doesn't make it a small deal to the sport or to the community. The goal of playing in any sport is to win, and deliberately throwing a match goes directly against the competitive mindset.
Coca was getting paid to be a member of Slayers. It was his job to be competitive, espeically in public tournaments like the ESV. To say that the punishment is too harsh is being far too lenient. Coca should be thankful he wasn't kicked off the team or banned from SC2.
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On November 16 2011 06:33 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 06:22 fleeze wrote:On November 16 2011 06:15 S_SienZ wrote:On November 16 2011 06:10 fleeze wrote:On November 16 2011 05:45 S_SienZ wrote:On November 16 2011 05:42 hmunkey wrote:On November 16 2011 05:41 S_SienZ wrote:On November 16 2011 05:40 hmunkey wrote:
Not really sure if I find Coca at fault here. He was in a tournament where winning wouldn't really give him a real prize, so why would he have an incentive to win? He could have just not signed up then. Oh yeah of course, but I don't think the punishment has been proportionate to the "crime." I beg to differ. It's certainly a lot lighter than what saviOr received. Both players are young. A little "time-out" by their respective teams won't damage their career much in the long run. If anything it'll definitely ensure that they think twice before pulling stuff like this again. On November 16 2011 05:44 fleeze wrote:
this just shows that you are even unable to read the chatlog posted.
the argument is totally valid. there was no code A spot on the line and he actually had no terran practise partners in house because the rest of SlayerS was at another LAN event.
i think SlayerS is doing this to move the issue away from their own faults. Giving your only Code S zerg no practise partners for his next matches against 3 terrans? that's not professional, but somehow in line with the Yugioh incident. 2 wrongs does not make 1 right. Also, it's perfectly within SlayerS rights to balance out the assignments of practice partners and sending players out for LANs as they see fit. OK, I've looked at the chatlog at least 5 times now. Please show me which part says that he's lacking practice partners. Also, answer me why couldn't he just knock Byun out and play a normal custom game with him? just comparing this case to saviors case disqualifies your opinion. it's extremly different to FIX an OSL match and bet money on it compared to a random online tournament with 100$ prize playing a friend in the first rounds... and can't you read yourself? 3:48 B: fuck, you said you'll let me win C: I have to practice, there's 3 Ts in my group ... C: I'm here just because I don't have other Ts to practice B: Next opponent is P, so just forfeit B: Where's your teams T? C: G-star event Honestly can't find that chatlog anywhere in the OP. Is it somewhere in the middle? Anyways, why is it not comparable to saviOr? Minor or major it's still match-fixing, similar to how it doesn't matter whether you steal a pen or a car. The charge is the same, the only difference is degree hence, the degree of punishment as well. It's not exactly apples and oranges, rather an apple with a bigger apple. it's in the thread and you should probably read it before making a statement yourself. also as is revealed in the thread too and it might be surprising but you just said you want idra, demuslim, stephano, brat_ok and a few other pros banned because they basically did the same. just look up the posts and read the damn thread before making such statements... and why should you compare it to match fixing at all? it was 2 friends joking around in the first round of an unimportant tournament, where other koreans forfeit matches all day... but Coca wanted the practise out of the matches at least. this is totally blown out of proportion. there was no money involved and Coca got nothing out of it. I did mention my thoughts regarding Stephano v Brat_OK somewhere in the thread. It's a completely different scenario there. I usually post with the assumption that all relevant info is in the OP. No way I'm going through nearly 80 pages just to get all the facts straight. Being a law student I already go through cases on a daily basis, and it's the last thing I want to do on TL. An unimportant tournament (which is totally subjective btw) is still a tournament, which players should respect. It's wrong because on CoCa's end he could have handled the situation a lot better than what he did. If he wanted Byun to advance he could have just forfeited the series and not play at all. If he wanted just the practice he could have hit Byun up for some custom games outside the tournament. With the way he handled it, not only it showed disrespect to the ESV Weekly, but it also casted SlayerS in a very unprofessional light. The decision done by SlayerS is a good one imo, it's exactly decisions like these that prevent eSports from overextending itself. Players should not be allowed to play for as much money as they are if they can't even behave up to the standards set, especially considering the current growth of eSports is exactly what the likes of BoxeR has done much to realise.
I've seen football teams throw matches through placing unknown players instead of their stars or playing like crap in tournaments they don't care about, similar cases in ANY sport.
Yes he didn't handle it well, he should have forfeited and played customs against him. i wonder why he didn't do it (speculation: prohibited by either SlayerS or Prime). The decision of the SlayerS team is REALLY wrong though. Hurting the competition in the GSL (since Coca earned his spot) and even leaving Code S matches to be forfeited...
And if you think stephano vs brat_ok was different what about idra vs demuslim in ESWC qualifiers? or even haypro who participated in a qualifier and forfeited to another swede, since he was already qualified?
similar cases and atm there isn't even a Code A spot on the line for ESV tournaments...
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Poor Coca, this is no way to the degree of match fixing as Savior so hopefully we get to see Coca back in action soon. Many may agree match fixing is match fixing no matter what but the world is not that black and white. Hope to see you play again Coca, we need you!
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Brat_Ok vs Stephano is actually the fault of the tournament organizer, if you looked at the order of games played.... first place position in groups should never be dictated by the last game instead it should be 2nd place.
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On November 16 2011 05:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 05:51 IPA wrote:On November 16 2011 05:48 windsupernova wrote:On November 16 2011 04:01 Dfgj wrote:On November 16 2011 02:42 windsupernova wrote:On November 16 2011 02:33 MrTortoise wrote:On November 16 2011 02:30 Condor Hero wrote:On November 16 2011 02:08 Emma Watson wrote:
Extremely disappointed in Boxer. As the wise mentor of team Slayers you would expect him to be strict, but also to be lenient and forgiving. Handing out such harsh punishment to a kid like Coca....I don't know, I imagined Boxer to be a White-Ra/Gandalf-like person who takes the context of Coca's actions into account and judges accordingly.
Boxer's reaction to this whole thing was equivalent to a overly eager dad who catches his son stealing a candybar and proceeds to beat the shit out of him, so the other parents don't think he is a bad father.
I am a social worker myself and let me tell you this: Kids make mistakes, your job as an adult is make sure that they learn from it by giving them second chances. And lets be clear: Coca's actions were well-intentioned, but he chose the wrong way to go about it.
What the fuck are you talking about? Do you have any idea what Boxer and other people gave up for progaming to be a legitimate career? Esports was sold on the passion of the players and fans. Nobody gives a shit that Coca is a "kid." He's a progamer on Slayers so he should be counted on to be professional. aww did your parents and teachers give you a hard time? the point is that kids are not able to undesrtand the consequences of their actions - in fact a lot of adults cant either (which is fueling some interesting legal debates). As such punishment that could seriously damage their improvement and progression does nobody any favors. What if one of these kids coul dof been the next boxer ... but did something stupid and met the anger of all othe other people out there that are pissed off at life and want to see someone crucified to make them feel better? Whats with the smugness in your post? Those kids are 17 and 18. And how do you teach people that there are consequences to their actions? By making them live through the consequences. And how this is hampering their improvement? They didn't get kicked out of their teams, only a few unreasonable humans are the ones wanting to see them crucified(see the posts that say the punishment was not enough) If anything it seems you are the one angry at life here lol. Jessica, boxer and gerard are not their parents, they are the team managers, they have to respond to their sponsors and to their fans, if one of the members of their team act in a way to embarass their organizations they have all the right in the world to punish them. Punishment may be harsh, but crucifying? Not really 18 isn't a 'kid' anymore, to add to that. 18 is old enough to be drafted in Korea. Age is not an excuse here. Did you read my post? because thats what I was saying lol I couldn't disagree more. I made countless mistakes at age 18, even into my early 20s. I suppose you guys were ministers by then. It's old enough to take responsibility (which they are doing); it's young enough to make it semi-understandable. Jesus, did you guys ever have fun or get into trouble? Gee, I didn't realize that having fun was the same as doing something illegal, but if it is, then you have to be prepared to deal with the consequences of breaking the rules. If your argument is that he should be allowed to act in an immature manner, then he's clearly not mature enough to play in legitimate tournaments for thousands of dollars. But I'm hoping that he eventually recognizes that what he did was incredibly stupid and that it shouldn't be taken lightly.
Do you understand what consequences of your actions means? It doesn't apply to this situation. Now, I don't smoke weed, but if you get caught smoking weed, a consequence might be jailtime depending on how much you have. This IS NOT a consequence of smoking weed. A consequence of smoking weed would be lung cancer or something negative like that. The punishment of jailtime is there for a reason, but it is not a consequence of smoking weed. Do you understand how retarded it is to say 'You shouldn't do this because you will go to jail'? No. It should be 'you shouldn't do this because [insert reason the law exists]'. If there are literally NO negative consequences for an action, why is it illegal in the first place?Now, this is where the question arises of does the punishment fit the crime. In Coca's case, FUCK NO it didnt. The consequences of him doing this were non existent and nothing negative happened until Slayers decided to punish him. Did someone get cheated out of a code A spot? No. Did someone get cheated out of money? No. Where were the actual consequences? The only thing you could argue is that people got cheated out of good games, but good god, that's hardly a felony offense.
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EPT
