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brood war is hugely overrated as a game.
It was good even great for it's time but compared by today's standard it's just terrible. It's too much mechanics and pointlessly clicking this and that. SC2 is much cleaner in that you don't have to mindlessly repeat actions like sending scv's to work etc. which leaves more focus on other things like timings and micro. SC2 also doesn't have all the dodgy bugs that bw has like dodgy reavers, spider mines, dragoons etc. The 12 unit cap for a group is another terrible thing that I'm glad is gone in sc2,
it has nothing to do with tactics but only mechanical skill.
BW had the luck that lots of those glitches worked out well and allowed for cute micro moves. That is the only thing I can complain about perhaps in sc2 compared to bw, bw had some cute micro moves and some 'cleaner' battles. The 'deatball' does get much more chaotic in sc2 and there are some cool moves lacking perhaps like stop lurker but that can be implemented in the expansion quite well still.
This site is just heavily biased towards BW because it was founded by people loving BW, it's only logical that there is a bias here. Sequels almost never live up to the original because people that judge the sequel are usually huge fans of the original and thus think of the original as the golden standard.
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Yet everyone would rage, if they saw an exact copy of BW just with better graphics. It's been done before, but there are surely a few things that could be used from BW. It's all been mentioned.
I like SC2, since it feels more fast phased and still heavily micro intensive.
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Most of us want the same "feel" in sc2 that BW had. which right now is almost true except for any matchup concerning protoss because of protoss's complete reworking in SC2.
PvZ PvT and PvP are almost nothing like they were in BW and hence you see a lot of Terrans like myself who really wish for that old glorious TvP style they have in BW that just isnt possible against deathball toss. And a lot of zergs whining about Hydras being useless when they were one of the go-to units in BW against protoss.
which is why a lot of us forum posters hate these new units like the Collosus the roacha dnt he marauder cuz they fundamentally destroy what makes the game interesting due to the fact that they are almost not like any unit their race had in BW. redesigning protoss to be a deathball 1a race isn't as interesting as watching what the protoss matchups were like in BW.
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On October 26 2011 21:15 Sandermatt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 21:09 Alpina wrote:
People don't want SC2 to be BW, they want SC2 to have characteristics of BW which made BW so awesome. I am not talking about workers cannot be rallied to mineral patches and unlimited unit selection. I mean things like micro. In SC2 everything looks like made to remove any micro from the game. Dustin browder does not even understand the meaning of micro, micro for him is turning on banshee's cloak lol.. Compare reaver with colossus and say that you wouldn't like to have reaver in SC2. There are micro intensive things in Starcraft. Marine-Splits, Immortal drop micro, blink micro, stutter step, ling baneling wars, focusing of the right units, ... .
But they are so ... meh. And you have to look at micro elements that separate SC2 from BW and there's none. BW has all the elements of SC2 micro and more. e.g Marine splits exist in BW against Lurkers.
What does SC2 actually have over BW?
On October 26 2011 21:18 Markwerf wrote:
brood war is hugely overrated as a game.
It was good even great for it's time but compared by today's standard it's just terrible. It's too much mechanics and pointlessly clicking this and that. SC2 is much cleaner in that you don't have to mindlessly repeat actions like sending scv's to work etc. which leaves more focus on other things like timings and micro. SC2 also doesn't have all the dodgy bugs that bw has like dodgy reavers, spider mines, dragoons etc. The 12 unit cap for a group is another terrible thing that I'm glad is gone in sc2,
it has nothing to do with tactics but only mechanical skill.
BW had the luck that lots of those glitches worked out well and allowed for cute micro moves. That is the only thing I can complain about perhaps in sc2 compared to bw, bw had some cute micro moves and some 'cleaner' battles. The 'deatball' does get much more chaotic in sc2 and there are some cool moves lacking perhaps like stop lurker but that can be implemented in the expansion quite well still.
This site is just heavily biased towards BW because it was founded by people loving BW, it's only logical that there is a bias here. Sequels almost never live up to the original because people that judge the sequel are usually huge fans of the original and thus think of the original as the golden standard.
No one thinks Street Fighter 1 is the best fighter game, and 99.999% of people switched to BW. You never see SC1 vs BW threads.
Everyone thinks BW is the gold standard because it is. Its the only game to have established a stabilitised E-Sports scene which has lasted over 10 years, with paid pros in the hundreds of thousands of dollars salary, and attracted crowds of over 100,000.
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On October 26 2011 21:15 Sandermatt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 21:09 Alpina wrote:
People don't want SC2 to be BW, they want SC2 to have characteristics of BW which made BW so awesome. I am not talking about workers cannot be rallied to mineral patches and unlimited unit selection. I mean things like micro. In SC2 everything looks like made to remove any micro from the game. Dustin browder does not even understand the meaning of micro, micro for him is turning on banshee's cloak lol.. Compare reaver with colossus and say that you wouldn't like to have reaver in SC2. There are micro intensive things in Starcraft. Marine-Splits, Immortal drop micro, blink micro, stutter step, ling baneling wars, focusing of the right units, ... .
The micro in SC2 is not half as beautiful to watch as the micro displayed in BW or WC3.
The things you list there don't impress me at all in SC2 - the only thing that I really like to watch is Marine splitting, since it has great dynamic and takes a lot of skill.
Immortal drops don't do enough to be spectacular albeit they take lots of skill to pull off.
Blink and stutter step are not impressive at all.
There are two things why I believe that micro and thus battles are not as nice to watch as in BW or WC3:
1. Shit dies too fast.
The dps to health ratio in SC2 is pretty high compared to BW or WC3. Everything happens so quickly, how are you supposed to micro? In BW and WC3 battles players have insanely high apm since there is so much to do. But what kind of micro do you want to display when armies kill each other off in the blink of an eye? What do you get out of drop play when your WP and the dropped Colossus, Immortal can easily get sniped?
2. Battle outcomes are often predetermined.
If Terran EMPs Protoss's core units before a battle, Protoss loses no matter what. If Toss catches Zerg or Terran off-guard and FF traps them, there is nothing they can do. If Zerg gets a good flank, there is no way of running away from that and it might outright lose you the game.
There are many of these occasions where a battle can't be won because somebody is half a second quicker than the other player. Suppose you are in your base macroing and suddenly you see a red dot on the mini map which turns out to be 4 ghosts who just blanket EMPed your army. What u gonna do besides trying to run from stimmed bio?
In both BW and WC3 there were these situations as well where one would have an initial advantage over the other player due to positioning or catching somebody offguard, but in those games you had better retreat options and could use micro to overcome theses disadvantages. I don't see that in SC2 as much
3. Anti - Micro abilities
This has been brought up many times: How do micro against Fungal/FF/Concussive? You hardly can. What do I gain from pulling back units when a stimmed marauder does not only outrun it but it additionally gets slowed? Got FFed? Bad luck for you. Fungal anyone? Say goodbye to your units.
Yes, in WC3 you had lots of those abilities. But almost every friggin unit had some spell so that you had great spell dynamics in battles including heals and other abilities that helped you safing units.
There is other stuff adding to this. How do you want to micro roaches? Yeah you could use burrow micro and the likes... But in general I kinda feel that there are too many situations where you can win battles by having a good position and then a-move your army with using a couple of spells on top of that.
Furthermore there are so many units that do not reward micro? The Stutter Stalker experiment underlines this. While good players can get so much out of marines, kiting with stalkers is so laughable compared to this. Why cant the Stalker turn quicker and have a better fire animation? It would help Pro-Tosses at the highest level but not have an impact on the noob level.
How do you micro Hellions? THe list goes on....
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No one wants to re-make BW people want SC2 to be as good as BW which at its state, simply is not other than the fact that it is more beginner-friendly. And you are wrong to say BW still has a huge player-base, in comparison to SC2 it is nowhere close and almost all foreigner BW pros have switched over.
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On October 26 2011 20:50 firehand101 wrote:
Exactly, great idea. Everyone will eventually switch to SC2 when they see the money and community going into it, as it is evolving at a much faster rate
and thats the problem
Thats the wrong sequence of events, first there should be interest, than you have passion and THAN you have money. If money makes you switch games, its none other than job persuit. Some pros were kinda clear on that, (for example IdrA).
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There's hardly any way to play BW for me anymore. ICCup is too laggy.
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On October 26 2011 21:18 Markwerf wrote:
brood war is hugely overrated as a game.
It was good even great for it's time but compared by today's standard it's just terrible. It's too much mechanics and pointlessly clicking this and that. SC2 is much cleaner in that you don't have to mindlessly repeat actions like sending scv's to work etc. which leaves more focus on other things like timings and micro. SC2 also doesn't have all the dodgy bugs that bw has like dodgy reavers, spider mines, dragoons etc. The 12 unit cap for a group is another terrible thing that I'm glad is gone in sc2,
it has nothing to do with tactics but only mechanical skill.
BW had the luck that lots of those glitches worked out well and allowed for cute micro moves. That is the only thing I can complain about perhaps in sc2 compared to bw, bw had some cute micro moves and some 'cleaner' battles. The 'deatball' does get much more chaotic in sc2 and there are some cool moves lacking perhaps like stop lurker but that can be implemented in the expansion quite well still.
This site is just heavily biased towards BW because it was founded by people loving BW, it's only logical that there is a bias here. Sequels almost never live up to the original because people that judge the sequel are usually huge fans of the original and thus think of the original as the golden standard.
What you say is completely of the hook. You sound like you completely lack experience in gaming at all. What you say could be only said by someone who was not around era when bw came or even 5 years after that. You are describing typical "modern" attempt at making games, which UNFORTUNATELY somehow was adopted into E-SPORTS games. Make games easier, dont strain players. Make games "balanced" (as in automated, so players have less tools to change the outcome). By giving less tools to players thats easier to mathematically balance game, but in fact its still almost impossible to, because you won't truly account players ability to micro/macro which is in fact a part of balance.
BW was made not in essence to be an E-sports game (there was no such thing as esports back then), and turned out to be the greatest one (historically). As we saw for it was mostly achieved by giving players a set of tools that were theoretically imbalanced, but in proper environment(maps) they worked great. But still it was not the biggest priority to make mathematically perfect units, because those units utility VARIED by small to big margin depending on HOW they were controlled . But hey! How newbie player could play unbalanced units wouldnt it make it as bad experience? No when his opponent was also a new player, even if both of them sucked and they didnt use their tools as efficient as they should there was a still balance, because an effort to do a tricky strategy (reaver drop, high reward) was met with equal effort to defend it. And yes thats why those "cute" moves mattered, it was part of balance, designers calculated hidden balance which was actually a micro ability.
In SC2 we will never see Reaver drops, because AI is to perfect and newbie player would drop other player and in this case an effort required for defender would be much greater (111 vs protoss).
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On October 26 2011 10:17 R0YAL wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 10:02 sunman1g wrote:
i sort of agre, i am so tired of all the ppl asking questions like "Back in BW we had"
go fucking play BW if you love it.
i like SC2 the way it's designed and i like that it is really different from bw.
that's why i feel it's a shame when kennigt asked DB questions that were all Bw centric...
waste of time/questions imho
"in BW we had units stretching out for screens and screens" etc.
jesus, i do not want to see that shit in SC2 personally -.-
i feel all this obsession to have SC2 looking like BW is something not THAT popular.
if you go around TL it may appear that way but thank god there's tons of people who agree SC2 shouldn't be more BW-y
I disagree entirely. The army balls in sc2 are not even close to as spectator friendly as the pathing in bw was. It looked much better, it was more clear, and it felt almost infinitely more epic. I actually can't conceive someone thinking that a blob on one screen is more appealing than masses upon masses of units stretched out over the map. I personally only reference bw units as a benchmark for comparison between units. Take the new Warhound for example, I don't like the AOE AA it has. Terran does not need help against flying light units, it would be more beneficial if its AA was more like the Goliath, long range and solid damage. When I compare units it's because of the purpose that unit fulfills, how it complements that race and what it forces your enemy to do.
Spot on man. I really loved in BW when tank line was stretching through half of the map and zerglings+ulstras+defilers were coming from all directions attacking attacking everything. Carnage was massive, blood everywhere, and after quite a long time (30s to 1min  ) one side emerged victorious.
In SC2 we got giant blob in the middle of the screen, and battles done in 3 to 5s, with the guy that has more aoe winning.
No need to copy BW exactly to achieve that goal, but they could try harder to bring back the same excitement, suspense and general awesomness with the tools offered by SC2. Not saying SC2 is crap, I like it very much and I enjoy watching the tournaments. But it could be so much better.
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I don't want SC2 to be more "BW-y". I just want it to have the same level of awesomeness as BW.
I mean, SC2 has already differentiated itself from the original by a lot. There are little to no units from BW that made it to SC2 other than tier 1 units and iconic units.
Which means no more wraiths, flying queens, defilers, lurkers, scourge, scouts, corsairs, arbiters, reavers, shuttles, dropships, valkyries, science vessels, firebats, goliaths, vultures, and medics.
So already, you have a completely different game with a completely new set of units that have their different dynamics and uses.
And what happens? The game, as a result, sucks balls because these units are incomparable to BW units.
The collosus will never beat the Reaver.
The baneling will never beat the Lurker.
The list can go on and on (I mean, yes, the banshee/viking might be cooler than the Wraith) and the very fact that these units are horrible and terrible (Marauder, Roach, the hellion is also dumb) make the game very stale and boring.
So no, don't make SC2 BW-y. But if you're going to make a good successor to BW and throw in a bunch of units at the same time, at least make those units good and worthwhile.
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On October 26 2011 21:19 Roeder wrote:
Yet everyone would rage, if they saw an exact copy of BW just with better graphics. It's been done before, but there are surely a few things that could be used from BW. It's all been mentioned.
I like SC2, since it feels more fast phased and still heavily micro intensive.
Wrong. Many people would be happy and It has not been done before.
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If starcraft 2 was just like starcraft broodwar, but not just with better graphics, but also better ai (including pathfinding) and more user friendly (allowing smart casing, control groups with over 12 units, etc), I could be satisfied just with that.
But starcraft 2 came as it is and I really liked it because due to differenc mechanics, the three races became even more distinct, something that I would not have believed was possible (while keeping a nice, balanced game).
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I don't understand wanting to play SC2 over BW because it's easier, especially at a high (esports) level. I would much rather play the more difficult one and I am by no means a high level player, but guess what, everyone else has to have the same high level mechanics to play. Since no one is going to hit the skill cap in SC2 or BW, why would they care what game is harder? All of your opponents are dealing with the same game; in the end, the player who puts in the time and better understands the game will win. I guess if you're a new player, you might be intimidated by the difficulty of the basics of BW, but EVERY new player has to deal with this and you're in the exact same position as your opponents are. So if we were, instead, one year into BW, you'd still be in the same percentile as you are in SC2. As long as the game doesn't have an immediately reachable skill cap, the player who puts in the most time/effort and has a good head on their shoulders will still be better.
EDIT: I never played much BW, but if we could make SC2 harder, I would be very happy but I don't see it as necessary at this point.
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I agree with the OP completely. The only part I want from BW is the higher end micro skill cap. But I don't need, or want, all my races and units to "feel" like BW. I'll just go play BW in that place.
I really dislike the bullying from the vocal minority of BW diehards who feel entitled to make SC2 the same.
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I feel this should be spotlighted, Definately worth it. I agree 98% with you OP. Fact is tho. people want sc2 to be as mechanicly genius as BW. But instead of making a thread like this (with valid points) they QQ and hate on us Sc2 players from mediocre to pro.
Hope the Bw veterans reads this and give's some decent feedback. Interesting to read!
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BW had the luck that lots of those glitches worked out well and allowed for cute micro moves.
I think that one thing which is commonly missed is that a LOT of those "cute micro moves" were not developed in the first year of BW. So obviously people are going to say the "skill ceiling" is lower than in BW, since the highest we can current see is lower. People at the start of SC1 had no idea of the things Flash or Jaedong could pull. Just like at the start of WC3 no one had a clue of the things Moon or Sky could accomplish in FT.
The roof is only going to keep rising as players develop new ways to use the units they have and superior mechanics (eg: simultaneous drops on multiple expos for example is something i try to do often and usually fail miserably at).
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i agree 100%, i almost thought about making a thread like this myself. it is sad so many measure how good units are based solely on how much they resemble BW-units.
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Brood War is an excellent game. So is soccer. So is baseball. Imagine if the "creators" of soccer said "hey everyone, we've got a new game, it's called soccer 2!" and everyone went to play it, but, despite the prettier field and neon ball, the new rules were kind of crazy and the game ended up being just two big teams crashing into eachother where whoever has the bigger team wins. People would be all like "aw, I enjoyed playing soccer."
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Canada5565 Posts
I'm just waiting for Proleague...
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EPT
