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ChaosTerran
Austria844 Posts
On October 26 2011 09:56 opisska wrote: I truly hope this will not lead to a SC2 vs. BW discussion, as one of the pivotal points af the argument is that such discussion is nonsensical. *looks at thread title* .... *scratches head* | ||
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RogerX
New Zealand3180 Posts
My obvious theory is that everyone misses the BW units, they were amazing and unique in most ways, I have to be honest, I miss BW units. Ah nostalgia, I don't need you anymore. | ||
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Boonbag
France3318 Posts
On October 26 2011 10:42 Tektos wrote: Kennigit's interview with Dustin made his view quite clear. "If you want it to be like Broodwar, go play Broodwar." I'm glad the devs share your and my point of view. how depressive well it was BW that sent his game down the toilets back then i can imagine how he feels about it ^^ | ||
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JayJay_90
Germany1632 Posts
1) It's challenging enough to be a competitive esports game, but easy enough for beginners to get started. That means that more people are gonna play it and the bigger the community, the more money sponsors will want to invest into the growth of esports, be it in price money, teamhouses or whatever. 2) Although at the highest level of BW, where everyone has sick mechanics, strategy is gonna be what decides the game, in BW usually the player with slightly better mechanics will win. I think it is really cool that, although mechanics are obviously super important, in SC2 you can actually win by having a sick gamesense and better tactical decision making, even if your mechanics are worse than your opponent's. To me, this deep understanding of the game is much more impressive than just high apm. Surely you need a lot of practise for that aswell, but it seems like that actually requires a bit of intelligence and talent, while i'd think that everyone who got the willpower to just play > 8 hours a day will get good mechanics pretty soon. | ||
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NotSupporting
Sweden1998 Posts
On October 26 2011 10:59 The Void wrote: try it this way: if you have a great race-game with great physics... would you ruin the physics in his successor just to have a different game? no problem with copying things from bw if they were great. there is no need to invent a totally new game. if you want new units no problem but they must work at some point in time. i like that they are testing but they shouldnt lose the track. for exsample the cliff mechanics are still a bit broken in sc2. if they would change it in the way it was in bw this would actually ADD more tactical deepness. this is a case where they made something different for no reason and its bad... so.. Totally agree. An example that this works is Dota2, they knew the original game was amazing and loved by millions so they didn't want to change that but rather give it a new touch for the next generation with better graphics, platforms to play it on etc. I never really understood the argument that because BW and SC2 are different they should try to be unique and not "copy". | ||
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andiCR
Costa Rica2273 Posts
On October 26 2011 22:55 NeWeNiyaLord wrote: I feel this should be spotlighted, Definately worth it. I agree 98% with you OP. Fact is tho. people want sc2 to be as mechanicly genius as BW. But instead of making a thread like this (with valid points) they QQ and hate on us Sc2 players from mediocre to pro. NO, we dont want sc2 to be as mechanicaly difficult as BW. Sc2 mechanics are good. If you started reading through responses, youd probably see what we need from BW, dont just read the OP and respond with what you THINK bw die hard fans want on sc2. On October 26 2011 22:55 NeWeNiyaLord wrote: Hope the Bw veterans reads this and give's some decent feedback. Interesting to read! It has been given. 7 pages of it. Read before you reply. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10686 Posts
In SC/BW when containing a Protoss waiting for his push-out a Zerg army could span over SEVERAL screens with groups and groups and groups of Hydra/Ling/Lurkers... A toss that would push out carelessly would get surrounded from like a 240° angle... This did not even require a 200/200 army... Now? If I want to stretch my 200/200 army over more than 1 or maybe 2 screens I run out of units to justify spreading them anymore... WTF happened? A 200/200 army in SC/BW was MASSIVE... In SC2 it's like "I finally get may army growing.. oh, maxed? Allready?  .". | ||
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d_wAy
United States104 Posts
On October 26 2011 22:55 NeWeNiyaLord wrote: Hope the Bw veterans reads this and give's some decent feedback. Interesting to read! It's not a matter of making SC2 as hard mechanically as BW -- it's simply that each RTS in the space has a unique function and feel and Blizzard is taking Starcraft further and further from the core mechanics that make Starcraft, Starcraft. Starcraft is an economy-based RTS NOT some amalgamation-of-specialized-units-that-do-cool-things-and-look-cool RTS. For those of us who DID play broodwar, this feeling of departure is MORE pronounced and so perhaps it may seem to the OP that the former bw community is more vocal in outwardly criticizing HotS. And in response to the argument about "well SC2 is a global e-sport that finally has the backing of the Western community." While it is true that there is definitely a skill gap between Koreans and foreigners in brood war, that is precisely a consequence of technology, exposure, and content availability. Koreans have long-lived with a fantastic online community along with near unlimited content on forums and on TV for brood war. When you live and breathe Starcraft, of course you will be better at it for the same reason that I bet you no matter how much other countries practice, they will NOT be as good as Americans at American football. We watch it everyday, digest the content, and see things in the game that people who don't understand the game as well don't. In this regard, the brood war community outside of Korea was lacking -- it was very difficult to digest as much high-level content simply because it was fairly inaccessible. Fast forward to today where we have huge communities and quite nearly unlimited content for SC2. Obviously we would expect the skill gap to narrow because it gives foreigners the opportunity to "live and breathe" Starcraft also. Regarding the accessibility and ease of SC2 v. BW -- I would argue this is more illusion than anything else, it is an issue of content. We are not arguing for SC2 to feel more like BW -- we are arguing for SC2 to feel more like Starcraft. This is the fundamental misunderstanding that those who did not play brood war suffer from. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On October 26 2011 21:33 sluggaslamoo wrote: But they are so ... meh. And you have to look at micro elements that separate SC2 from BW and there's none. BW has all the elements of SC2 micro and more. e.g Marine splits exist in BW against Lurkers. What does SC2 actually have over BW? No one thinks Street Fighter 1 is the best fighter game, and 99.999% of people switched to BW. You never see SC1 vs BW threads. Everyone thinks BW is the gold standard because it is. Its the only game to have established a stabilitised E-Sports scene which has lasted over 10 years, with paid pros in the hundreds of thousands of dollars salary, and attracted crowds of over 100,000. For the record, there were battles between Vanilla SC players and BW players way and I mean way back. When push came to shove we finally had a show match between the two sides. I'm sure a few old chaps remember that. Some players took a while to make the switch including myself and Testie. | ||
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NotSupporting
Sweden1998 Posts
On October 26 2011 23:15 Velr wrote: The thing that strikes me the most ist he sheer size of SC/BW armies compared to SC2. In SC/BW when containing a Protoss waiting for his push-out a Zerg army could span over SEVERAL screens with groups and groups and groups of Hydra/Ling/Lurkers... A toss that would push out carelessly would get surrounded from like a 240° angle... This did not even require a 200/200 army... Now? If I want to stretch my 200/200 army over more than 1 or maybe 2 screens I run out of units to justify spreading them anymore... WTF happened? A 200/200 army in SC/BW was MASSIVE... In SC2 it's like "I finally get may army growing.. oh, maxed? Allready? .".Yeah, this is something that SC2 really lacks. I was a terran player in BW and I remember those time when you got your mech army up to 200/200 against toss and you would start to roll out spreading tanks and vulture mines all across the map as you slowly pushed over the map with your MASSIVE mech army spreading across many screens. This is something that SC2 totally lacks, when I play zerg and reach 200/200 I always think to myself "where the **** is my maxed out army?", its just nothing there. | ||
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wheelchairs
United States145 Posts
Also, a battle of 200 food vs 200 food in SC2 takes about 15 seconds, units die so quickly, everything does a ton of damage, where battles in BW would take a long time, and would be thought out in depth prior to staging an attack. The units in HOTs added for controlling space and filling gaps in composition roles are awesome. This is truly a sign of what's to come for me. Being more "BWy" is such a good thing for this game and it's growth. | ||
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Bagration
United States18282 Posts
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Velr
Switzerland10686 Posts
What happens to a real Casual in SC2 and SC/BW is alike... They die to the first attack the CPU or another Human makes... AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN. | ||
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RogerX
New Zealand3180 Posts
On October 26 2011 22:42 Zergneedsfood wrote: I don't want SC2 to be more "BW-y". I just want it to have the same level of awesomeness as BW. I mean, SC2 has already differentiated itself from the original by a lot. There are little to no units from BW that made it to SC2 other than tier 1 units and iconic units. Which means no more wraiths, flying queens, defilers, lurkers, scourge, scouts, corsairs, arbiters, reavers, shuttles, dropships, valkyries, science vessels, firebats, goliaths, vultures, and medics. So already, you have a completely different game with a completely new set of units that have their different dynamics and uses. And what happens? The game, as a result, sucks balls because these units are incomparable to BW units. The collosus will never beat the Reaver. The baneling will never beat the Lurker. The list can go on and on (I mean, yes, the banshee/viking might be cooler than the Wraith) and the very fact that these units are horrible and terrible (Marauder, Roach, the hellion is also dumb) make the game very stale and boring. So no, don't make SC2 BW-y. But if you're going to make a good successor to BW and throw in a bunch of units at the same time, at least make those units good and worthwhile. Ah my favourite BW streamer <3 I completely agree with this and its how I've been thinking of this whole situation | ||
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Boonbag
France3318 Posts
The argument they need to make the game easy to catter audiences is void. Chess is a fun game even if you got no idea what you're doing, yet there's no way you can understand a pro game without having frequented a chess club in your life. Bw was the same ! | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
On October 26 2011 23:13 iPAndi wrote: NO, we dont want sc2 to be as mechanicaly difficult as BW. Sc2 mechanics are good. If you started reading through responses, youd probably see what we need from BW, dont just read the OP and respond with what you THINK bw die hard fans want on sc2. It has been given. 7 pages of it. Read before you reply. The mechanics can have depth without the simple parts being difficult. If you don't want any difficult mechanics at all then you will not get the same depth that made BW keep evolving strategy-wise to this day, because being mechanically difficult is the only reason it happened. I can guarantee you in it's current form, with it's current fundamental mechanics, once patching stops SC2 will stabilize pretty quickly and not be particularly interesting long-term as an eSport. That is unless they can produce enough depth with the added units/abilities in the expansions to allow years of skill development; judging by the HotS additions that seems extremely unlikely. While they constantly mention competitive play they very blatantly are designing the game to be simultaneously accessible to everyone, so literally everyone is able to do every strategy to some extent. I don't see how they can have it both ways. It's telling how a lot of people found TvT and TvZ to be prehaps the best matchups to spectate; in my opinion they are the ones which most resemble their BW counterparts, although i think even they could be improved a lot. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
You have to ask yourself what is the game missing? You guys are still focusing too much on the pieces (BW) rather than the whole (RTS games in general). It is no different from your standard MMO. Playable classes: Warrior (melee) Sorceress (spell-caster) Ranger (range attack) Then you get into the skill sets. You will need a healer, tank, spell to de/buff, aoe spells, etc. It really is no different. The pieces are always going to be the same. It just comes down to how you package it. All Blizzard is doing is adding pieces that were missing from before. Packaging it is the hardest part. | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
On October 26 2011 23:10 JayJay_90 wrote: 2) Although at the highest level of BW, where everyone has sick mechanics, strategy is gonna be what decides the game, in BW usually the player with slightly better mechanics will win. I think it is really cool that, although mechanics are obviously super important, in SC2 you can actually win by having a sick gamesense and better tactical decision making, even if your mechanics are worse than your opponent's. To me, this deep understanding of the game is much more impressive than just high apm. Surely you need a lot of practise for that aswell, but it seems like that actually requires a bit of intelligence and talent, while i'd think that everyone who got the willpower to just play > 8 hours a day will get good mechanics pretty soon. I just noticed this post, but this is just wrong really on 2 things.. first the assumption that SC2 is even strategically deep at all in the first place, and the idea you can't win via outthinking someone in BW. A lot of the time it feels like luck plays more of a part than supposedly 'sick gamesense'; you can get lucky and beat someone with far better mechanics - that isn't a good thing. Yes you can also out-think someone with better mechanics and beat them, but personally i think in BW it's actually more possible to do that, and it's been proven quite a bit by lower APM players doing very well on the ICCUP ladder. In a a real-time strategy the person who can simply do more always has an advantage, that is the real-time part of course. I remember when a maphacker very easily got to number 1 rank on the NA ladder, with platinum level mechanics. So a vastly slower player can simply beat a vastly superior one with a blind counter; i don't think that's a good thing. Even at GSL level i remember a day where Killer advanced 2-1 simply by going nexus first, taking a huge economic risk to get an advantage that he could easily play to victory. It's still an aspect of the game in BW too but not to the same extent. | ||
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shackes
Germany148 Posts
On October 26 2011 23:23 NotSupporting wrote: Yeah, this is something that SC2 really lacks. I was a terran player in BW and I remember those time when you got your mech army up to 200/200 against toss and you would start to roll out spreading tanks and vulture mines all across the map as you slowly pushed over the map with your MASSIVE mech army spreading across many screens. This is something that SC2 totally lacks, when I play zerg and reach 200/200 I always think to myself "where the **** is my maxed out army?", its just nothing there. Agree, I think this is an important issue, that's seldom discussed. In SC2 you have more workers, economy boosting abilities, and additionally: units cost more supply. You're maxed faster and with less units. I was hoping they would increase the supply cap in HOTS, like they did in WC3:TFT (90 -> 100). Just to 220 or so, and 240 in the last addon. The only downside would be that team games would be even more cluttered, and system requirements would increase a bit. | ||
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Phenrock
United Kingdom132 Posts
SC2 is it's own game let it evolve at it's own pace, if you don't like it, then stick to BW! To which I agree with!However, in another tangent, I don't think many have touched upon. The problem for a sport is, if after each iteration, the game changes dramatically, it becomes difficult to sustain, follow, and keep a consistent level of history and playerbase. Maybe it'd be better for a sport to define a certain set of rules (say BW) then build on it and improve on it as the society/community grows with it. Football (soccer) rules have changed a number of times to allow faster flow, more exciting spectator sport of the game. i.e when you passed the ball back to the keeper, the keeper was allowed to pick the ball up, but later on they changed the rules so the keeper can not. This allowed better flow and promoted more intelligent play from the defence. Rather than a whole new set of rules! This can apply to eSports as well, the problem however is, it is in the hands of Blizzard. BW was successful! They still could have used BW and build upon it, rather than just create a new game with some similar units, because all the hard balancing work was done! Why start again?! SC2 could have been the HotS to what WoL is. Add new units to BW, or in theory could have just updated graphics with more forgiving mechanics. Once all the expansions are out and we're all happy about balance etc. If they ever decide to make SC3 will it be different again, and will we be complaining that they should just make a SC2 upgraded graphics. I just hope that Blizzard decides that SC2 becomes the base product for the sport to build on for many, many years. New expansions can be there to try to change it up a little and improve on it if at all possible, but as long as there is a base product where the transition is easier, I'm all for it. | ||
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