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In HOTS, low pylons no longer power high ground - Page 28

Forum Index > SC2 General
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sunman1g
Profile Joined May 2011
United States334 Posts
October 25 2011 00:25 GMT
#541
i'm terran and i find this change absolutely ridiculous..... o.O jesus
worked13
Profile Joined September 2010
Australia93 Posts
October 25 2011 00:37 GMT
#542
On October 25 2011 06:51 Shiladie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 25 2011 06:22 QNdie wrote:
Holy hell this is terrible. I hope blizz will be happy when gsl becomes full terran, 0 toss and maybe 2 zergs.

Show nested quote +
On October 25 2011 06:36 ZenithM wrote:
May this put an end to months of Protoss domination.

I'll say it again, the only strats that this causes problems for (remember warp-in still is possible DOWN from cliffs, this is just preventing UP cliffs) is gimmicky builds. If you need to warp in at the top of some cliff so much, get a warp prism. .


Calling this 'gimmicky' leads me to believe that you're not a Protoss player who has lost to cannon rushes before. There are more reasons to exploit this capability other than using it purely for cheese. Putting Pylons at multiple cliffs and flying an hallucinated Phonenix(es) by them is easier than having to choose to make 2-3 WPs instead of Immortals/Colussuses at crucial points in the game; when having that additional Robo unit might mean the difference between holding a timing attack or losing the game.
Cocoba
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada352 Posts
October 25 2011 00:41 GMT
#543
Wow blizzard really hates people who 4 gates o.O
:D
Tektos
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia1321 Posts
October 25 2011 00:42 GMT
#544
On October 25 2011 09:16 ChineseWife wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 25 2011 09:07 Tektos wrote:
On October 25 2011 07:33 Reborn8u wrote:Protoss has been surviving in competitive play through the use of gimmicky tactics. Things like 4 gates, nexus cancels, air play, 1 or 2 base all ins, turtling for the deathball, dt's, blink rushes, cannon rushes. I'm not going to talk about right or wrong in terms of these strategies, that depends on your philosophy on how the game "should" be played. I think options like this should be available but they should supplement strong core play. Which would probably be the general consensus. However, I would seriously doubt there ever would have been a protoss GSL champion (MC) if these gimmicks didn't exist and protoss had to rely on standard protoss play with the state it has been in.


Your post is incorrect almost from the get go...

4gates, air play, all ins, deathball, dts, blink rushes <-- NONE of those are gimmicky tactics.

Nexus cancels and cannon rushes are the only ones from your list which are considered gimmick tactics. Both of which zerg do on occasion too! (spinecrawler pushes / hatch cancels)


4gate is just a fairly powerful all in, not a gimmick.

Air play isn't a gimmick, it just isn't used that frequently.

All ins - this is very broad, do you have particular all-ins in mind? 6gate, 7gate, 6gate stargate (4gate already mentioned above) none of which are a gimmick.

DTs - you can't consider that just simply by using one unit then following up with normal play it is a gimmick, stop being ridiculous.

Blink rushes - most of which are just a standard timing attack, where is the gimmick in that?



By your logic the following I could label almost every terran build that involves more than standard hellion/tank/thor or marine/tank as a gimmick.

I seriously can't believe that you labelled the death ball in particular a gimmick tactic - the death ball is the result of a macro game!!!!


actually everything u listed as not being a gimmick, is in fact a gimmick. DT rushing isnt gimmicky? Since when? Death ball is not macro oriented, the point is to max out off 2-3 bases with as few probes as possible, with no intention of carrying into the late late game. Some1 plz explain how dumb this guy is, because I'm bored of this thread already


I'll concede that DT rushing is somewhat gimmicky but he didn't say DT rushing now did he? He just said DTs, implying that any game where a DT was used = protoss being gimmicky.

I don't think you understand the concept of a gimmick if you think the deathball is in the slightest a gimmick. It seems your opinion is that if it isn't a 60 minute long macro fest then it must have been gimimcks which is ridiculous. The idea of the deathball isn't a gimmick in the slightest, it is a strategy. You're making less workers and less bases because you want this one army to be as strong as possible, less probes means more army supply. More army supply results in a larger chance of winning in a head on clash.


By your logic, every timing attack and all-in that terran or zerg do is also a gimmick?

I wish as a terran or zerg my gimmick could result in my entire army being inside the enemies base without having to invest in the tech for medivacs/overlord drops/nydus.

High ground warp in was an overly advantageous gimmick, it was removed for a legitimate purpose. If as a result of removing this gimmick (which you apparently feel is a necessity of the Protoss race) Protoss starts losing every game at a pro level then Blizzard will make changes to re-balance things. This was something that nobody besides cheesy and gimmicky protoss users overly cared about.
Ryder.
Profile Joined January 2011
1117 Posts
October 25 2011 00:46 GMT
#545
On October 25 2011 08:24 Xardean wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 25 2011 07:33 Reborn8u wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
There are some things that I think need to be put in perspective as far as protoss in general. I see so many threads about protoss and I think a lot of people just don't "get it". Hopefully, after reading this you won't be thinking that I don't "get it".

Protoss has been surviving in competitive play through the use of gimmicky tactics. Things like 4 gates, nexus cancels, air play, 1 or 2 base all ins, turtling for the deathball, dt's, blink rushes, cannon rushes. I'm not going to talk about right or wrong in terms of these strategies, that depends on your philosophy on how the game "should" be played. I think options like this should be available but they should supplement strong core play. Which would probably be the general consensus. However, I would seriously doubt there ever would have been a protoss GSL champion (MC) if these gimmicks didn't exist and protoss had to rely on standard protoss play with the state it has been in.

I am of the opinion that these types of plays are so wide spread because playing standard as protoss is weaker than using gimmicks. One of the results of this was many people calling protoss overpowered because many of these gimmicky plays require a pretty specific response to stop. Thus, many of these things have been nerfed into the ground, while some of things that deal with them received buffs (roach range and infestors come to mind). Warp, blink, voidrays, forge build time, zealot build time, pylon radius, all of these things received substantial nerfs over the last year. Furthermore, the things that were buffed phoenix, archons, observers, immortals, warp prisms, are not core parts of protoss play, and don't significantly affect the early game. Which is why I stated that I feel gimmicks are stronger than standard play for protoss, a diligent zerg or terran can scout and respond and simply put the protoss far behind by delaying protoss from even taking his own natural on almost every map, by directly doing damage, or shutting down protoss gimmicks, because the build order protoss chose was scouted.

While PvZ seems to be a back and forth in win rates, mostly because of the metagame and some patching. PvT and PvP have been altered a lot as a direct of result from patches not metagame, at least much more so than pvz. The problem protoss as a race faces now is that with so many of their gimicks nerfed, and standard expansionist play being as delicate as it is, protoss are left with very little to rely on.

In PvT Protoss play seems stagnant, predictable, and it's faster and much cheaper for terran to counter protoss AOE than it is for protoss to produce it. Unfortunately, once terran starts producing medevacs, protoss is very weak agaisnt MMM without significant AOE damage available. The only real change lately has been more ghost usage, and more prism play but they haven't grossly changed the general play or altered the win rates. (now protoss's are making a warp prism with their 4 gate.....lol)

PvP is actually in turmoil because of all the changes to 4 gating. Really though, the 4 gate has been replaced by 3 gate robo, and the rule of "he who expands, dies" still applies to PvP in almost every pro match I've seen since that last patch. Truthfully though, I don't expect much diversity from mirror matches, and I'm pretty happy with it's current state except the fact that it is so 1 base focused.

Now most of what I've stated above is my opinion, but I'd like to think it is of a decently well formed opinion. The thing that really bothers me about them removing the pylon cliff warp in, is the same thing that bothers me about the new protoss units in hots. It's just more gimmicks, and they will be most likely be nerfed, just like these pylons. What protoss needs is a strong core. Protoss's core is the gateway, and the units from the gateway need some love.

Protoss needs to be balanced away from gimmicks and towards safe standard macro play. Taking away their gimmicks while not strengthening their core is what has led to protoss's current weaknesses in pro play. This is what protoss should be about, not blink stalkers that can't stand and fight, dragoons that put fear into people and are strong enough to walk where they want except against well prepared defenses or massed counters (like lings). Not warp ins all over the map to defeat someone who has weaker multitask or took many bases, macro and positioning to defeat someone who can't macro as well or isn't as tactically sound in battle. Protoss doesn't want to have to replicate other races units, protoss wants thier own flexible and cost effective units. Protoss don't want a-move colossus with stupid range and dmg, they want shuttle/reaver, which in a pro's hands can bring out oooo's and ahhhh's from an audience because of the skill and decision making involved in manipulating them. Protoss doesn't want to shut down mining for 45 seconds, they want to do what terran and zerg does, murder workers.

If they want to take away cliff warp in then fine, but for the love of starcraft protoss shouldn't be about gimmicks, it should be a strong mobile army of core units with good upgrades that zerg and terran fear an unfavorable engagement with, from the early game to the late game. An army that can be defeated by good caster usage, good positioning and better macro, not by an A move with more cost effective units and hard counters. Protoss should not be beaten by gimping protoss's economy and stopping any retaliation, 7 minutes into the game because the protoss's build got scouted. Protoss should be beaten by better decision making and better macro.

Sorry for the long rant, but this is the general way I feel about protoss. I've been playing rts's and starcraft a long time, and watching pro play for a long time. I honestly feel like Dustin Browder just doesn't "get it". Maybe I am just a dinosaur with outdated views and I'm the one who doesn't get it. But it saddens me to see such a beautiful race with such a proud history loose it's identity and be treated so unfairly.


This guy. Right here. Agree 100%

Wow yeah such a well thought out and articulated post...

+1 nomination for Protoss Representative! (whatever that is...)
Ciraxis
Profile Joined June 2010
Australia400 Posts
October 25 2011 00:53 GMT
#546
If they make this Pylon cliff change, shouldn't they do so for Hellion cliff attack as well? Always thought that was practically weird.
Beece
Profile Joined May 2010
United States62 Posts
October 25 2011 00:53 GMT
#547
honestly if it becomes a major issue Blizzard will fix it, this game is still relatively young.
A man chooses! A slave obeys!
bpat
Profile Joined September 2011
United States157 Posts
October 25 2011 00:58 GMT
#548
This is a pretty big blow to players who like to 4gate (like me), since you used to be able to warp into their base as soon as you got vision. Yes, this mostly hurts gimmicky play, but Protoss absolutely needs to be able to warp units onto high ground as their harass is limited to flying stuff (Warp Prism, Phoenix, and Oracle), which are all only available mid-late game and vulnerable to anti-air static defense or a handful of anti-air units like Queens, Marines, and Stalkers. Overall, despite the half-decent Oracle, I can't help but feel that Protoss harass is actually getting worse.
Jonas :)
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States511 Posts
October 25 2011 01:04 GMT
#549
The ramp vision change makes this a non-issue in PvP, and only hurts protoss harassment options even more in the other matchups. I seriously use low ground pylon + observer = high ground zealot or dark templar warp-ins all of the time, this sucks.
Antares777
Profile Joined June 2010
United States1971 Posts
October 25 2011 01:05 GMT
#550
On October 25 2011 09:46 Ryder. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 25 2011 08:24 Xardean wrote:
On October 25 2011 07:33 Reborn8u wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
There are some things that I think need to be put in perspective as far as protoss in general. I see so many threads about protoss and I think a lot of people just don't "get it". Hopefully, after reading this you won't be thinking that I don't "get it".

Protoss has been surviving in competitive play through the use of gimmicky tactics. Things like 4 gates, nexus cancels, air play, 1 or 2 base all ins, turtling for the deathball, dt's, blink rushes, cannon rushes. I'm not going to talk about right or wrong in terms of these strategies, that depends on your philosophy on how the game "should" be played. I think options like this should be available but they should supplement strong core play. Which would probably be the general consensus. However, I would seriously doubt there ever would have been a protoss GSL champion (MC) if these gimmicks didn't exist and protoss had to rely on standard protoss play with the state it has been in.

I am of the opinion that these types of plays are so wide spread because playing standard as protoss is weaker than using gimmicks. One of the results of this was many people calling protoss overpowered because many of these gimmicky plays require a pretty specific response to stop. Thus, many of these things have been nerfed into the ground, while some of things that deal with them received buffs (roach range and infestors come to mind). Warp, blink, voidrays, forge build time, zealot build time, pylon radius, all of these things received substantial nerfs over the last year. Furthermore, the things that were buffed phoenix, archons, observers, immortals, warp prisms, are not core parts of protoss play, and don't significantly affect the early game. Which is why I stated that I feel gimmicks are stronger than standard play for protoss, a diligent zerg or terran can scout and respond and simply put the protoss far behind by delaying protoss from even taking his own natural on almost every map, by directly doing damage, or shutting down protoss gimmicks, because the build order protoss chose was scouted.

While PvZ seems to be a back and forth in win rates, mostly because of the metagame and some patching. PvT and PvP have been altered a lot as a direct of result from patches not metagame, at least much more so than pvz. The problem protoss as a race faces now is that with so many of their gimicks nerfed, and standard expansionist play being as delicate as it is, protoss are left with very little to rely on.

In PvT Protoss play seems stagnant, predictable, and it's faster and much cheaper for terran to counter protoss AOE than it is for protoss to produce it. Unfortunately, once terran starts producing medevacs, protoss is very weak agaisnt MMM without significant AOE damage available. The only real change lately has been more ghost usage, and more prism play but they haven't grossly changed the general play or altered the win rates. (now protoss's are making a warp prism with their 4 gate.....lol)

PvP is actually in turmoil because of all the changes to 4 gating. Really though, the 4 gate has been replaced by 3 gate robo, and the rule of "he who expands, dies" still applies to PvP in almost every pro match I've seen since that last patch. Truthfully though, I don't expect much diversity from mirror matches, and I'm pretty happy with it's current state except the fact that it is so 1 base focused.

Now most of what I've stated above is my opinion, but I'd like to think it is of a decently well formed opinion. The thing that really bothers me about them removing the pylon cliff warp in, is the same thing that bothers me about the new protoss units in hots. It's just more gimmicks, and they will be most likely be nerfed, just like these pylons. What protoss needs is a strong core. Protoss's core is the gateway, and the units from the gateway need some love.

Protoss needs to be balanced away from gimmicks and towards safe standard macro play. Taking away their gimmicks while not strengthening their core is what has led to protoss's current weaknesses in pro play. This is what protoss should be about, not blink stalkers that can't stand and fight, dragoons that put fear into people and are strong enough to walk where they want except against well prepared defenses or massed counters (like lings). Not warp ins all over the map to defeat someone who has weaker multitask or took many bases, macro and positioning to defeat someone who can't macro as well or isn't as tactically sound in battle. Protoss doesn't want to have to replicate other races units, protoss wants thier own flexible and cost effective units. Protoss don't want a-move colossus with stupid range and dmg, they want shuttle/reaver, which in a pro's hands can bring out oooo's and ahhhh's from an audience because of the skill and decision making involved in manipulating them. Protoss doesn't want to shut down mining for 45 seconds, they want to do what terran and zerg does, murder workers.

If they want to take away cliff warp in then fine, but for the love of starcraft protoss shouldn't be about gimmicks, it should be a strong mobile army of core units with good upgrades that zerg and terran fear an unfavorable engagement with, from the early game to the late game. An army that can be defeated by good caster usage, good positioning and better macro, not by an A move with more cost effective units and hard counters. Protoss should not be beaten by gimping protoss's economy and stopping any retaliation, 7 minutes into the game because the protoss's build got scouted. Protoss should be beaten by better decision making and better macro.

Sorry for the long rant, but this is the general way I feel about protoss. I've been playing rts's and starcraft a long time, and watching pro play for a long time. I honestly feel like Dustin Browder just doesn't "get it". Maybe I am just a dinosaur with outdated views and I'm the one who doesn't get it. But it saddens me to see such a beautiful race with such a proud history loose it's identity and be treated so unfairly.


This guy. Right here. Agree 100%

Wow yeah such a well thought out and articulated post...

+1 nomination for Protoss Representative! (whatever that is...)


This 1000 times over. I hope Blizzard realizes that the core units need to be buffed while the gimmicky units need to get nerfed soon.
Tulkas25
Profile Joined August 2011
Greece292 Posts
October 25 2011 01:09 GMT
#551
naniwa vs dimaga first game comes in mind( from blizzcon) one of the sexiest plays ever from a protoss wouldnt be possible without that pylon mechanic..common blizzard u actually know what hurts ur already epic game...dont make changes that dont really make sense and yes i am a terran but this is just lol!
What happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object?
Darclite
Profile Joined January 2011
United States1021 Posts
October 25 2011 01:09 GMT
#552
It isn't even 4 gate vs. 4 gate anymore really. I mean, that still shows up a lot, but there are so many ways to defend a 4 gate now (3 variations of defensive 3 gates, 1 gas 2 gate robo, 2 gas 2 gate robo, 3 stalker rush, 3 gate robo, Tyler's 2 gate robo, and Mana's build and Kiwikaki's build which I am not familiar with).

Also, did they do it because they thought 3 gate stargate was OP? That's a build I would never use, it's fucking awful. The only thing that makes it work at all is the high ground warp.

These things just show how out of touch blizzard is. Reborn8u said it all brilliantly, but to add to that, look at what happened besides this.

They didn't want to strengthen toss units or add combat units because the "deathball is too strong." The deathball hasn't been the dominant style (for lack of a better word, it's hard to say because I think they consider any protoss army a deathball rather than an army) for 6 months.

We lack efficient ways to kill workers. We wanted a way to beat inferior players, something that we could out-multitask with and something that would allow us to compete with Z/T means of killing workers from the early mid-game into the late game. We got something that can never kill a worker (which for some reason Browder needed to make the major focus of the unit) and costs 200 gas. What the fuck is the point? How does that serve the role

Who wanted the Replicant? Seriously? A unit that can become other units, but not massive ones. Other than infestors, what is the point? Is the replicant really going to reach a tank (or see one in PvT)? And you can't get archons, thors (superthors?), tempests, bcs, ultras. brood lords, or colossi. lol In Brood War, dark archons had mind control where a unit that costs about the same could permanently control any other unit. Was that ever even used in a pro game? Wasn't it just maelstrom for ultras and mutas?

Protoss often feels like "how much gas can I get so I can afford the good units?" So they added three units that all cost 200 gas. Can I have a mineral dump besides zealots? You couldn't just make a unit that was like 100/25 or something?

Also, the general mentality regarding changes to protoss is just insane.
High ground warp in = remove
Flux vanes = remove
Khaydarin Amulet = remove
Carrier = remove
Mothership = remove
And then you wonder why people complain about them lacking diversity.

God damn it. I guess I'll be doing for more of the same boring plays for the next few years.
They're fools. You should eat them.
MorroW
Profile Joined August 2008
Sweden3522 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-25 01:19:23
October 25 2011 01:14 GMT
#553
im not sure about this change, it seems to eliminate alot of good things in the game and no bad things? hm i think i dont like this change

altho at the same time im happy they are experimenting and its nice to see them dare to finally try big changes as the expansion is coming

early game is very good in sc2 and later game need more cool special tactics like this i think. if anything they should encourage the strategic placement of buildings rather than dumming it up

if they think close to air position warpins such as on metal or shattered is a problem they should rather just look into their map design more rather than do things like this.

i dont understand what issues they were trying to address in this change to be honest as early game is not an issue what so ever
Progamerpls no copy pasterino
Alvas
Profile Joined August 2010
United States309 Posts
October 25 2011 01:17 GMT
#554
this is going to kill the cannon rush... can't say I have a problem with that though...
Every bullet counts...
Euronyme
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden3804 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-25 01:45:19
October 25 2011 01:44 GMT
#555
On October 25 2011 10:14 MorroW wrote:
im not sure about this change, it seems to eliminate alot of good things in the game and no bad things? hm i think i dont like this change

altho at the same time im happy they are experimenting and its nice to see them dare to finally try big changes as the expansion is coming

early game is very good in sc2 and later game need more cool special tactics like this i think. if anything they should encourage the strategic placement of buildings rather than dumming it up

if they think close to air position warpins such as on metal or shattered is a problem they should rather just look into their map design more rather than do things like this.

i dont understand what issues they were trying to address in this change to be honest as early game is not an issue what so ever


Haha oh wow. The zerg/ terran progamer has spoken.

I totally agree with earlier posts as well. For all what I care they can remove the collosus entirely and buff up the gateway units. Maybe give something reaver-like from the robo. Honestly replacing the collosus with the reaver together with an overall buff to gateway units would solve protoss imo. Maybe limit the warp in ability a bit so you can't cheese with it (as this is obviously what's holding them back from buffing anything from a gateway).
It'd be cool if we atleast got close to something like that.

Edit. Sorry for going way off topic there. Late night posting fighting!
I bet i can maı̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̨̨̨̨̨̨ke you wipe your screen.
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
October 25 2011 01:49 GMT
#556
Also. Why, out of all the things they remove, didn't they remove the Collosus?

No one likes it...at all.
Freeeeeeedom
GhostFall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States830 Posts
October 25 2011 01:53 GMT
#557
If blizzard is really trying out big changes, and not just being schitzophrenic with Protoss, then wouldn't it be worth trying out removing the Collosus and giving them something in return or even *gasp* nerfing the marine.
ROOTFayth
Profile Joined January 2004
Canada3351 Posts
October 25 2011 01:54 GMT
#558
I miss broodwar
Achilles306
Profile Joined October 2011
Canada84 Posts
October 25 2011 01:59 GMT
#559
The Protoss race design team: I got this sweet idea!
Balance team: It's IMBA as fuck!
Compromise: Implement cool idea but nerf it until it is a piece of shit. If can't be nerfed that bad, remove.

Source (from sc2): phase cannons, warping above forcefields, planet cracker, archon toilet, warping in HT with storm, mothership (at beginning), void ray, blink

From BW: reaver, corsair, dragoon, speedlot, arbiter

Balance Team: This unit sucks!
Protoss race design team: But it's so cool!
Balance Team: We don't buff Protoss, so we must remove the unit.
Protoss race design team: TT

Source: carrier, mothership, scout, dark archon

Protoss player to Bisu: There is no point in switching to SC2. TT
KrazyTrumpet
Profile Joined April 2010
United States2520 Posts
October 25 2011 02:00 GMT
#560
This is yet another less than subtle hint to protoss players to use warp prisms and actually l2p.

(sidenote: I play Protoss)
www.twitch.tv/krazy Best Stream Quality NA @KClarkSC2
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