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We are currently talking about this issue in the mod forum. We take this issue very seriously, and want to find the best way to serve those who want faster results, and those that don't wish to be spoiled. |
On October 14 2011 02:34 Blasterion wrote:
when IPL3 ended I wanted to see a liquid write up with Stephano with a big smile on his face. I got nothing, because of spoiler fear....such a pity. This is definitely hurting eSports
This has nothing to do with spoiler fear. Waxangel was at IPL3 (you know, the chief editor of TL) and now he's at IEM. You want a write-up quicker? Write it yourself, send it in, or post it yourself. TL does NOT delay articles because of spoilers. It's done when it's done, and since most of their work is done by VOLUNTEERS to a standard they set it's not done as quick as paid writers would have it. Stop blaming spoiler fear for slow news articles.
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Is the « spoiler fear » hurting E-sports ?
It`s not spoiler fear.
+ Show Spoiler +It`s just that knowing the result beforehand takes out the novelty aspect out of the experience - and therefore diminishes its value for many people. Therefore, it is a big deal for those people - so much so, that some of them won`t even watch most of the games if they know the result beforehand.
You cannot really compare it to spoilers in newspapers or major sports websites - it`s not the same. For example, I really like soccer but I don`t really care about spoilers here because it`s not a real passion or the passion to me - I`m interested in results, I`ll watch a match occasionally but that`s about it. So I just don`t mind. Starcraft II, however, is my passion - and I don`t want the games to be spoilered because it`s much more fun, entertaning and engaging experience when I don`t know the result beforehand when it so happens that I couldn`t watch live.
TL.net, at least to me, isn`t really a form of e-newspaper. It`s a community site and people you term "spoiler freaks" should not be disregarded.
The problem with your poll, OP, is that people who care most about spoilers are often the ones that are the most passionate about Starcraft.
Emotional connection - yes, most definitely but absence of spoilers is not a prerequisite to achieve it. Separate gateway for "spoiler-freaks" might be a very good idea, indeed.
Still, the results of this poll are really suprising to me.
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I think when someone wins, it should be mentioned immediately. I mean, there shouldn't be anything like spoilers for e-sports. You find out who won the football game the second you look at the front page of a newspaper, why not the same for games?
I mean, if you REALLY don't want to see the outcome of the matches, don't go where you KNOW they'll be.
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On October 14 2011 03:12 xBillehx wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 02:34 Blasterion wrote:
when IPL3 ended I wanted to see a liquid write up with Stephano with a big smile on his face. I got nothing, because of spoiler fear....such a pity. This is definitely hurting eSports This has nothing to do with spoiler fear. Waxangel was at IPL3 (you know, the chief editor of TL) and now he's at IEM. You want a write-up quicker? Write it yourself, send it in, or post it yourself. TL does NOT delay articles because of spoilers. It's done when it's done, and since most of their work is done by VOLUNTEERS to a standard they set it's not done as quick as paid writers would have it. Stop blaming spoiler fear for slow news articles.
http://www.teamliquidpro.com/news/2011/10/09/ipl3-origins-one-day-more
By tree.hugger 12:36 October 09 2011.
News written in the middle of the IPL. Saying current TL does not have fast/instant slow news = inaccurate. What people want are for these headlines not to be spoiler - free and is shown more prominently to give more exposure. The headlines chosen for these articles have some things to do with spoiler fear.
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On October 14 2011 03:21 dtz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 03:12 xBillehx wrote:On October 14 2011 02:34 Blasterion wrote:
when IPL3 ended I wanted to see a liquid write up with Stephano with a big smile on his face. I got nothing, because of spoiler fear....such a pity. This is definitely hurting eSports This has nothing to do with spoiler fear. Waxangel was at IPL3 (you know, the chief editor of TL) and now he's at IEM. You want a write-up quicker? Write it yourself, send it in, or post it yourself. TL does NOT delay articles because of spoilers. It's done when it's done, and since most of their work is done by VOLUNTEERS to a standard they set it's not done as quick as paid writers would have it. Stop blaming spoiler fear for slow news articles. http://www.teamliquidpro.com/news/2011/10/09/ipl3-origins-one-day-moreBy tree.hugger 12:36 October 09 2011. News written in the middle of the IPL. Saying current TL does not have fast/instant slow news = inaccurate. What people want are for these headlines not to be spoiler - free and is shown more prominently to give more exposure.
Theres no article on Stephano winning IPL, which the poster I quoted claimed was because of spoiler fear. TeamliquidPro is strictly for the Teamliquid team & tree.hugger is pretty much the main writer there. Unless you've got a writer claiming they hold off on posting articles for big events because of spoiler fear then the OP, and your argument about spoilers affecting esports is pretty much moot.
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I used to avoid TL frontpage if I had vods to watch because I'm not really interested in watching the vods at all if I know the result. Then I realized that there weren't really spoilers on the front page (this bit me when the TSL3 finalists were announced...).
If there were spoilers on the TL front page, they would lose most of my hits. Are multiple hits from the same IP valuable? I don't know. You decide.
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On October 14 2011 03:24 xBillehx wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 03:21 dtz wrote:On October 14 2011 03:12 xBillehx wrote:On October 14 2011 02:34 Blasterion wrote:
when IPL3 ended I wanted to see a liquid write up with Stephano with a big smile on his face. I got nothing, because of spoiler fear....such a pity. This is definitely hurting eSports This has nothing to do with spoiler fear. Waxangel was at IPL3 (you know, the chief editor of TL) and now he's at IEM. You want a write-up quicker? Write it yourself, send it in, or post it yourself. TL does NOT delay articles because of spoilers. It's done when it's done, and since most of their work is done by VOLUNTEERS to a standard they set it's not done as quick as paid writers would have it. Stop blaming spoiler fear for slow news articles. http://www.teamliquidpro.com/news/2011/10/09/ipl3-origins-one-day-moreBy tree.hugger 12:36 October 09 2011. News written in the middle of the IPL. Saying current TL does not have fast/instant slow news = inaccurate. What people want are for these headlines not to be spoiler - free and is shown more prominently to give more exposure. Theres no article on Stephano winning IPL, which the poster I quoted claimed was because of spoiler fear. TeamliquidPro is strictly for the Teamliquid team & tree.hugger is pretty much the main writer there. Unless you've got a writer claiming they hold off on posting articles for big events because of spoiler fear then the OP, and your argument about spoilers affecting esports is pretty much moot.
Isn't the IPL thing with Stephano just an example though? TeamLiquid Pro News are esports news as well no?
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On October 14 2011 03:30 dtz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 03:24 xBillehx wrote:On October 14 2011 03:21 dtz wrote:On October 14 2011 03:12 xBillehx wrote:On October 14 2011 02:34 Blasterion wrote:
when IPL3 ended I wanted to see a liquid write up with Stephano with a big smile on his face. I got nothing, because of spoiler fear....such a pity. This is definitely hurting eSports This has nothing to do with spoiler fear. Waxangel was at IPL3 (you know, the chief editor of TL) and now he's at IEM. You want a write-up quicker? Write it yourself, send it in, or post it yourself. TL does NOT delay articles because of spoilers. It's done when it's done, and since most of their work is done by VOLUNTEERS to a standard they set it's not done as quick as paid writers would have it. Stop blaming spoiler fear for slow news articles. http://www.teamliquidpro.com/news/2011/10/09/ipl3-origins-one-day-moreBy tree.hugger 12:36 October 09 2011. News written in the middle of the IPL. Saying current TL does not have fast/instant slow news = inaccurate. What people want are for these headlines not to be spoiler - free and is shown more prominently to give more exposure. Theres no article on Stephano winning IPL, which the poster I quoted claimed was because of spoiler fear. TeamliquidPro is strictly for the Teamliquid team & tree.hugger is pretty much the main writer there. Unless you've got a writer claiming they hold off on posting articles for big events because of spoiler fear then the OP, and your argument about spoilers affecting esports is pretty much moot. Isn't the IPL thing with Stephano just an example though? TeamLiquid Pro News are esports news as well no?
No, TeamliquidPro is the teams news site only. Like Complexity's site for Complexity news, myeg.net for EG news, etc. TeamliquidPro follows the team only. All other news goes through either Featured News or Community News. Therefor an IPL writeup would be in either one of those, but it's just not done yet.
The OP talks about articles/quick updates not being written at all because of spoiler fear. (as do many of the people I quote and argue with) There's simply no source to this, because TL doesn't hold off on articles for spoilers. (as your example even shows) However it seems you're arguing that headlines are unable to be engaging without spoiling results, which is entirely different and I simply disagree with that.
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Geez, so just because I enjoy watching Starcraft games without knowing the victor, I'm a freak, OCD, way to sensitive?
Some people in here say things like "I often look up results before watching a VOD", well gee, good for you. Does that mean your way is the only way?
There's also waaaaay too american saying "just watch it live", good for you to have MLG and IPL at your home turf eh.
As xBillehx has brought up in post after post - and really, thank you for making this point - full length articles don't pop up instantly. For a write-up with a smiling Stephano and a "To the bank" picture you'd have to wait at least a few hours, so the feeling losing the hype that Hattori Hanzo and others are so damn afraid of has already occured.
Then, if it's not a full article you want, what is it exactly? Just a banner with a link to an empty thread? A thread where people can discuss the epicness that just occured? Go to the twitch.tv live chat, go to the last page of the LR thread, it will still be buzzing.
It's sickening to see people use the argument "I can't get my 40 y.o. co-worker into Starcraft because he NEEDS a big pictures to capture his attention."
Why do you want to punish (yes, punish) existing Starcraft fans in favor of new people? Send them to Husky and HD's youtube channels first, and in time they'll decide if they like the game or not.
All parallells to real sports are skewed. You visit ESPN after you've watched the football game, while you watch the actual game on your tv.
For Starcraft, you come to TL to watch games, take part in LR threads, find the actual links to the games (no, I haven't memorized every single twitch.tv channel, nor do I know where to find IPL/IEM vods without "digging around") - this is the hub for both viewing, hyping AND celebrating results.
So to sum up:
- I'm all for having a huge article with the winners name etc on the front page if it's not posted until ~24 hours later. This is a sufficient time window for people to log on TL, find the LR thread, find the VOD links, read up on other netizens reactions.
- I enjoy Starcraft the most when I have no idea who's going to win. That doesn't give anyone the right to call me a whiner, spoiler freak or whatever.
- TL.net is a huge site, it cannot be simplified into "It sais progaming news in the banner - therefore it must look like a tabloid website". We come here for different reasons, and it's disrespectful to intentionally want to hurt anothers' viewing experience.
- I realize I'm in the minority, fine. To the other 85% of you I ask - Is it the in-depth articles and write-ups you want (and these will take a few hours or days to complete), or do you want a one-liner saying "Stephano won" with no additional content the second the finals was over?
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On October 14 2011 00:32 SolidMustard wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 00:25 R0YAL wrote:On October 13 2011 23:27 AimlessAmoeba wrote:On October 13 2011 23:24 R0YAL wrote:On October 13 2011 22:45 SolidMustard wrote:Poll: Do think live tournament results on TL frontpage is a good idea ?Yes (4507) 86% No (386) 7% Yes, but only if TL add a spoilerfree VOD page that is easily accessible. (364) 7% 5257 total votes Your vote: Do think live tournament results on TL frontpage is a good idea ? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): Yes, but only if TL add a spoilerfree VOD page that is easily accessible.
Wow, that's quite a one-sided poll ! Hopin' TL staff sees that ! uhh TL already does articles covering tournaments on the front page.. I don't understand this. Yeah but the thing is the big "results updates" are always days, sometimes a week after a huge tournament. There is STILL no writeup on Stephano's big win on the front page, and he's like the first foreigner to ever beat out that many Koreans in a tournament. Ever. The results are almost immediately posted. There is usually a designated thread for the big tournaments that get updated reguarly and a more reliable source is Liquipedia. Basically everything Starcraft related from ever is on Liquipedia. IPL results? Liquipedia. Anyone who wants to immediately find out can and everyone else is obviously willing to wait a couple weeks for the very well-written article on the front page. On October 13 2011 23:44 SolidMustard wrote:On October 13 2011 23:24 R0YAL wrote:On October 13 2011 22:45 SolidMustard wrote:Poll: Do think live tournament results on TL frontpage is a good idea ?Yes (4507) 86% No (386) 7% Yes, but only if TL add a spoilerfree VOD page that is easily accessible. (364) 7% 5257 total votes Your vote: Do think live tournament results on TL frontpage is a good idea ? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): Yes, but only if TL add a spoilerfree VOD page that is easily accessible.
Wow, that's quite a one-sided poll ! Hopin' TL staff sees that ! uhh TL already does articles covering tournaments on the front page.. I don't understand this. Yeah, their big articles are always great, but they are only BEFORE the tournaments actually happen. I think it's really bad that you still see the announcement article on front page once the tourney is over, there should be (in my ideal TL.net ^^) an article bringing the results AND drawing conclusions, and stuff, just like for any regular sport (as already pointed out) Like this, this, or this? These are all within the last two weeks. These are exactly the kind of articles I'd love to see more often and with less delay, but some replies made me realize that this shit has to be written, and that's probably why there is such a difference with real sports sites, I guess : people get paid to write sports article, TL writters don't :-(
Exactly. The writers don't get paid and we get amazing content free of charge. How and why the hell are people complaining. The TL staff do an amazing job at everything. If anything, they should keep it up! The longer they take on an article, the more epic and well written it is.
People need to stop bitching about all this free content that they get.. It is there, you just need to click on a link from the main page to read it.. Lots of people (not me though  I just enjoy it haha ) put a lot of hard time and effort into this site and they need to be appreciated for it.
Thanks TL staff!!! <3
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On October 14 2011 03:35 xBillehx wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 03:30 dtz wrote:On October 14 2011 03:24 xBillehx wrote:On October 14 2011 03:21 dtz wrote:On October 14 2011 03:12 xBillehx wrote:On October 14 2011 02:34 Blasterion wrote:
when IPL3 ended I wanted to see a liquid write up with Stephano with a big smile on his face. I got nothing, because of spoiler fear....such a pity. This is definitely hurting eSports This has nothing to do with spoiler fear. Waxangel was at IPL3 (you know, the chief editor of TL) and now he's at IEM. You want a write-up quicker? Write it yourself, send it in, or post it yourself. TL does NOT delay articles because of spoilers. It's done when it's done, and since most of their work is done by VOLUNTEERS to a standard they set it's not done as quick as paid writers would have it. Stop blaming spoiler fear for slow news articles. http://www.teamliquidpro.com/news/2011/10/09/ipl3-origins-one-day-moreBy tree.hugger 12:36 October 09 2011. News written in the middle of the IPL. Saying current TL does not have fast/instant slow news = inaccurate. What people want are for these headlines not to be spoiler - free and is shown more prominently to give more exposure. Theres no article on Stephano winning IPL, which the poster I quoted claimed was because of spoiler fear. TeamliquidPro is strictly for the Teamliquid team & tree.hugger is pretty much the main writer there. Unless you've got a writer claiming they hold off on posting articles for big events because of spoiler fear then the OP, and your argument about spoilers affecting esports is pretty much moot. Isn't the IPL thing with Stephano just an example though? TeamLiquid Pro News are esports news as well no? No, TeamliquidPro is the teams news site only. Like Complexity's site for Complexity news, myeg.net for EG news, etc. TeamliquidPro follows the team only. All other news goes through either Featured News or Community News. Therefor an IPL writeup would be in either one of those, but it's just not done yet. The OP talks about articles/quick updates not being written at all because of spoiler fear. (as do many of the people I quote and argue with) There's simply no source to this, because TL doesn't hold off on articles for spoilers. (as your example even shows) However it seems you're arguing that headlines are unable to be engaging without spoiling results, which is entirely different and I simply disagree with that.
But how do you propose we do quick updates/news without it being a spoiler yet maintain its impact. A lot of casual visitors need the news to hit them in the face without clicking anything. So something like IPL3 Concludes : Click here for the winner won't have nearly the same impact as IPL 3 Concludes : Stephano Dominates with pictures of him holding a trophy and everything.
I realize I'm in the minority, fine. To the other 85% of you I ask - Is it the in-depth articles and write-ups you want (and these will take a few hours or days to complete), or do you want a one-liner saying "Stephano won" with no additional content the second the finals was over?
I think no one wants the in-depth reviews and previews that has been the strength of TL for so many years to be touched. There can be quick updates for immediate impact and then reviews to be digested for when everything settles down. They are not mutually exclusive.
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I've been a fan of traditional sports my entire life. I've followed Baseball as long as I can remember. I'm what could be described as a "rabid" fan of the Boston Red Sox. I read and follow all of the writers on twitter and blogs and I would say that on average I spend several hours a day reading/watching/thinking about the Red Sox.
If I can. I watch the game. Either at home on my TV, at work on my computer, or on the go on my iPhone. If for whatever reason, I am unable to watch the game, I usually check updates on my phone so I at least have some idea about what is going on.
On some occasions, I wont want the results of the game to be spoiled, so I stop checking updates on my phone. I don't open ESPN.com. I do all I can to avoid news outlets until I can watch the game in peace, and see for myself what happens.
When I first came to this community, it absolutely BLEW MY MIND that some of the people around here would freak out about spoilers in post on the forums. I couldn't believe it. I think the solution is pretty simple and obvious. If you care about results being spoiled DON'T OPEN TL until you've had a chance to watch the game. Don't expect the community to bend to your needs. Shit.
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On October 14 2011 01:27 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 01:07 Z-R0E wrote:
I think putting the champion on the front page is fine, but I would hate to see the community move away from <spoiler>'ing non-championship game results. Worded differently: If I'm unable to watch a tournament live, I can accept that the championship will be spoiled for me by visiting TeamLiquid for the sake of hype, but I'd still want to be able to watch other matches I missed from the tournament without knowing the outcome of every game. Like running a marathon and finding no one greeting me at the finishing line and being huddled into a black van because of ZOMG SPOILERZ
hahaha omg
Brilliant analogy.
I actually realised until today that I did not know who won GSTL. It's because these news aren't posted fucking anywhere except hidden under spoilers in the LR thread (which kinda isn't appropriate days after). I think winning a GSTL honestly deserves more of a celebration and appreciation.
edit: I know the eventual writeup will be amazing, But headline news directly after a major event (and only major events!) are appropriate and sorely needed for a SC2 news site. Look at the amount of content that is being produced in the LR threads for every event. Manpower or lack of content production capabiltities cannot be the problem preventing these small writeups + pictures from appearing on the main page.
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On October 14 2011 03:48 dtz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 03:35 xBillehx wrote:On October 14 2011 03:30 dtz wrote:On October 14 2011 03:24 xBillehx wrote:On October 14 2011 03:21 dtz wrote:On October 14 2011 03:12 xBillehx wrote:On October 14 2011 02:34 Blasterion wrote:
when IPL3 ended I wanted to see a liquid write up with Stephano with a big smile on his face. I got nothing, because of spoiler fear....such a pity. This is definitely hurting eSports This has nothing to do with spoiler fear. Waxangel was at IPL3 (you know, the chief editor of TL) and now he's at IEM. You want a write-up quicker? Write it yourself, send it in, or post it yourself. TL does NOT delay articles because of spoilers. It's done when it's done, and since most of their work is done by VOLUNTEERS to a standard they set it's not done as quick as paid writers would have it. Stop blaming spoiler fear for slow news articles. http://www.teamliquidpro.com/news/2011/10/09/ipl3-origins-one-day-moreBy tree.hugger 12:36 October 09 2011. News written in the middle of the IPL. Saying current TL does not have fast/instant slow news = inaccurate. What people want are for these headlines not to be spoiler - free and is shown more prominently to give more exposure. Theres no article on Stephano winning IPL, which the poster I quoted claimed was because of spoiler fear. TeamliquidPro is strictly for the Teamliquid team & tree.hugger is pretty much the main writer there. Unless you've got a writer claiming they hold off on posting articles for big events because of spoiler fear then the OP, and your argument about spoilers affecting esports is pretty much moot. Isn't the IPL thing with Stephano just an example though? TeamLiquid Pro News are esports news as well no? No, TeamliquidPro is the teams news site only. Like Complexity's site for Complexity news, myeg.net for EG news, etc. TeamliquidPro follows the team only. All other news goes through either Featured News or Community News. Therefor an IPL writeup would be in either one of those, but it's just not done yet. The OP talks about articles/quick updates not being written at all because of spoiler fear. (as do many of the people I quote and argue with) There's simply no source to this, because TL doesn't hold off on articles for spoilers. (as your example even shows) However it seems you're arguing that headlines are unable to be engaging without spoiling results, which is entirely different and I simply disagree with that. But how do you propose we do quick updates/news without it being a spoiler yet maintain its impact. A lot of casual visitors need the news to hit them in the face without clicking anything. So something like IPL3 Concludes : Click here for the winner won't have nearly the same impact as IPL 3 Concludes : Stephano Dominates with pictures of him holding a trophy and everything.
"Unexpected IPL3 Winner Dominates in an Amazing Fashion" works just fine, and the pictures can be in the actual post. This is for things that are within 24 hours. If it's after, which I really think should be fine for casual visitors then by all means I don't think spoilers should be protected. To these new visitors does it really matter whether the event ended 4 hours ago or 1 day ago?
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On October 14 2011 03:16 Symbioth wrote:
Still, the results of this poll are really suprising to me.
The silent majority rises up, tired of the vocal minority deciding things. :p
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It is hard for people to see the events live when they happen in the middle of the night...and knowing the result can ruin the experience. A co-worker spoiled the US Womens World Cup semi-final for me and it deprived me of one of the most dramatic soccer games in my lifetime.
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I've actually contemplated starting an esports site much like ESPN with live results and coverage/articles, even sponsors so people can afford to travel to events and write articles/take pictures (for larger events obviously)... fact is though, it requires a lot of volunteers, time, and visitors.. TL.net SHOULD be the place to goto for these types of things, i mean they already have everything that i listed... however they seem so protected of content if i dont wanna know the results of a gsl, i dont even touch this site... as soon as i get home i login to my gom account and watch them... It's the same if i tivo a football game, i'm not going to visit espn - that's foolish....
I don't know why a small percentage of people feel they should be catered to, while the rest of us lose quite a valuable feature that would make esports feel much more epic. I think it would be cool if + Show Spoiler + picture was the 1st thing you saw when you visited TL.Net after IPL3.. He deserves it, his sponsors deserve it, and the fans deserve to read an interesting article about the event. If TL.Net does not have the manpower to keep up to date news on the front page, why don't they seek more qualified volunteers to help out - i dont think the problem is lack of manpower/help though - this is the most giving community i've ever seen on the internet.
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This is an excellent point.
I understand the reasons behind preventing spoilers, but the front-page coverage always feels strangely dated. I want the hype behind (say) the MVP-Nestea match-up and outcome to come out in a day or two of it happening, not like a week later when everyone is speculating about the GSL finals.
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No, it doesn't hurt E-Sports, it might hurt the site, but how does it hurt E-Sports? This topic is silly because there isn't a distinguishing link between E-Sports as a whole and spoilers. Those who watched the games know the results, those who didn't will watch it in the near future or will see an article about it soon after.
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I think what we really need is some TL Staff to voice opinions on this since, ultimately, it is up to them what is represented on the front page of TL.
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EPT
