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We are currently talking about this issue in the mod forum. We take this issue very seriously, and want to find the best way to serve those who want faster results, and those that don't wish to be spoiled. |
On October 13 2011 03:06 ishboh wrote:
the only problem is that e-sports are hard to catch the results live sometimes due to some tournaments being played on NA timezones, some on KR timezones, and some on EU timezones.
Im not saying I am against seeing results placed on the front page, I am just trying to play devils advocate.
a particular tournament is played on different time zones, but there's only one of it. When it's over, it's over, we should have result headlining at most 6-12h after it's over I think.
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I never understood people that didn't like to hear the results before something happened. Do they think all movies based on history are shit? Personally I like to see who wins first then watch. When it even comes to books I don't mind knowing whats going to happen beforehand because the excitement is what happens in between.
I really dislike how secretive you have to be about tournaments in general, once it happens I feel as if you should be free to talk about it.
Like OP said, if a football team wins the superbowl one day, the next day its the top headline on like everything. What do people expect to happen if they didn't watch it? Have everyone be all secretive about it?
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OP has flawed reasoning imo. The fact that when a team / player wins a big championship is because it's covered in all the media. The different media organizations have to compete with each other to bring the news the fastest and with the best quality possible.
This isn't the case in ESports where there are a handful of sites with TL being the biggest by far. The audience is pretty fragmented with EU / NA / SEA timezones. While 'regular' sports are broadcasted by popularity, meaning that in Europe football is the biggest sport, so when there's a big match. It's being broadcasted at the most convenient moment, somewhere in the evening when the viewing potential is the biggest. In the case of ESports it's what the best for the organizers, keeping in mind that players can be fatigued or jet-lagged. Specially when it's a multiple day tournament.
You can't and shouldn't compare ESports with regular sports, because they're way too different of each other.
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I'm for having spoilers. Chances are that 50% of the people aren't even going to watch the tournament but still cry about spoilers.
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Kinda wish TL.net would go the same way as PlayXp and post tournament results as news on the front page.
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I agree that there should be big articles about the tournament, however people should have the option to go into 'spoiler-free mode' if they want. Should be simple enough, just tag certain news stories 'spoilers', and give the option under account management or whatever to hide those news stories. Problem solved. As long as you set your account to auto-sign-in you'll never be spoiled, but someone stumbling upon TL for the first time will see "MVP wins GSL October!" with a picture of him kissing the trophy and confetti everywhere. I'm all for this
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On October 13 2011 04:05 Cajun2k1 wrote:
OP has flawed reasoning imo. The fact that when a team / player wins a big championship is because it's covered in all the media. The different media organizations have to compete with each other to bring the news the fastest and with the best quality possible.
This isn't the case in ESports where there are a handful of sites with TL being the biggest by far. The audience is pretty fragmented with EU / NA / SEA timezones. While 'regular' sports are broadcasted by popularity, meaning that in Europe football is the biggest sport, so when there's a big match. It's being broadcasted at the most convenient moment, somewhere in the evening when the viewing potential is the biggest. In the case of ESports it's what the best for the organizers, keeping in mind that players can be fatigued or jet-lagged. Specially when it's a multiple day tournament.
You can't and shouldn't compare ESports with regular sports, because they're way too different of each other.
There's a lot of wisdom in this. However, your analysis doesn't really address the underlying question: why shouldn't TL have AP-style instant results coverage?
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I believe the reason TL don't put stuff up sooner is that they favour quality over speed/quantity.
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For me, every time a tournament is over, I automatically assumed the results would be front page. But I always had to dig around various forums just to find out what happened and it's pretty annoying.
Sports aren't movies, you can know who won and still enjoy it when you watch it later.
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On October 13 2011 04:05 Silidons wrote:
I never understood people that didn't like to hear the results before something happened. Do they think all movies based on history are shit? Personally I like to see who wins first then watch. When it even comes to books I don't mind knowing whats going to happen beforehand because the excitement is what happens in between.
I really dislike how secretive you have to be about tournaments in general, once it happens I feel as if you should be free to talk about it.
Like OP said, if a football team wins the superbowl one day, the next day its the top headline on like everything. What do people expect to happen if they didn't watch it? Have everyone be all secretive about it?
Personally you like to see who wins first then watch.
We're all different, eh? Part of why I love watching Starcraft is because of the suspense. I would not be able to enjoy a game as much, and appreciate the decisionmaking of player A if I knew he'd screw up in some way since player B won the series.
Superbowl is NOT a good comparison. American "football" is a sport that is pretty much confined to the USA alone. It always takes place during prime time for its intended audience, and therefore it's reasonable to ask of a fan of American football to simply watch it live.
GSL airs at 11 am CET, 5 am EST and 2 am PST. This website is mostly used by people in NA/EU. It's not reasonable to assume everybody will, can, or even WANT to watch it live - especially since GOMTV provides excellent HQ vods that in my opionion are superior to watching the stream live.
As I mentioned in another post, if you WANT results, you can find the results - it just takes a bit of extra work.
On the other hand if I DON'T want results, and you still spoil them to me, the damage can not be undone.
As it it now, everybody can get what they want. If TL's front page were to spoil results, only a part of the community would get what they want, the other part would be left with no other choice than avoid their favourite website.
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I hope things will change a little seeing 84% voted yes!
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Netherlands1788 Posts
On October 13 2011 04:17 DoomFox wrote:
Sports aren't movies, you can know who won and still enjoy it when you watch it later. No, I can't. If I know the results and/or it is casted from replays I cannot enjoy it no matter how hard I want to.
I don't play SC2 anymore so I don't care about learning from the matches, I only watch for the entertainment value.
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On October 13 2011 04:06 MonkSEA wrote:
I'm for having spoilers. Chances are that 50% of the people aren't even going to watch the tournament but still cry about spoilers.
Does it matter? If 100 people cry about spoilers, and 99 of them weren't even going to watch the tournament anyway, there's still one whose viewing experience now is ruined or diminished.
I don't get why this isn't crystal clear to everybody. ^_^
You're not getting instant results on the front page = minor inconvenience.
Someone else not getting their results spoiled since he/she wants to watch the event from start to finish = huge deal.
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On October 13 2011 01:10 SeeDLiNg wrote:
while it MIGHT be... the fact is that we're not all in one city like a major sports team... many people CAN NOT stay up till 5am to watch gsl finals.
Haha what? There are fans around the world that stay up to watch their sports team. Otherwise, they ignore the newspapers or ESPN(in this case TL is the substitute) and watch their recordings. Plus sometimes my favorite sports teams do not play in my time zone so i have to stay up untill midnight to watch(ooooh nooooo!). GSL is the exception but even then, you can watch the vods before you come to TL, and i am definitely not campaigning for results to be plain as day on the front page. A title that alludes to another page with the results is more optimal in my mind.
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On October 13 2011 04:23 Shichibukai wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 04:06 MonkSEA wrote:
I'm for having spoilers. Chances are that 50% of the people aren't even going to watch the tournament but still cry about spoilers. Does it matter? If 100 people cry about spoilers, and 99 of them weren't even going to watch the tournament anyway, there's still one whose viewing experience now is ruined or diminished. I don't get why this isn't crystal clear to everybody. ^_^ You're not getting instant results on the front page = minor inconvenience. Someone else not getting their results spoiled since he/she wants to watch the event from start to finish = huge deal.
Why are you ignoring the suggestion I made in OP about an alternate TL spoilerfree page with all the VODs ? Or as some suggested, just an option to turn spoiler-news off when coming to the homepage.
I think you really don’t understand the point I was trying to make in the OP. It is not just about “minor inconvenience” for the current TL users, it is about making the site user-friendly and with a lot of hype and excitement for the casual viewers/newcomers.
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On October 13 2011 04:15 zarepath wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 04:05 Cajun2k1 wrote:
OP has flawed reasoning imo. The fact that when a team / player wins a big championship is because it's covered in all the media. The different media organizations have to compete with each other to bring the news the fastest and with the best quality possible.
This isn't the case in ESports where there are a handful of sites with TL being the biggest by far. The audience is pretty fragmented with EU / NA / SEA timezones. While 'regular' sports are broadcasted by popularity, meaning that in Europe football is the biggest sport, so when there's a big match. It's being broadcasted at the most convenient moment, somewhere in the evening when the viewing potential is the biggest. In the case of ESports it's what the best for the organizers, keeping in mind that players can be fatigued or jet-lagged. Specially when it's a multiple day tournament.
You can't and shouldn't compare ESports with regular sports, because they're way too different of each other.
There's a lot of wisdom in this. However, your analysis doesn't really address the underlying question: why shouldn't TL have AP-style instant results coverage?
Personally I'm indifferent about spoilers, they're mildly annoying but there is so much content out there you can't escape being spoiled once in a while. But if we're talking about TL specifically then I think it's a bad idea because TL caters to a very wide audience which is international. Tournaments are played on NA-time or EU-time. Hell, some tourney's are being played at regular office-hours in a weekday, I think of Homestory Cup and some MLG's. Meaning you're dependent on VODs if you want to see all content. VODs are an important part of ESports and why it's working the way it is. If you put up tournament results AP-style, it diminishes the value of VODs and will ultimately mean less VODs viewed and less advertising possibilities.
I'm hugely in favour of letting the consumer choose, I'm not a coder, but I don't think it's very hard to implement an option in which you can choose for a 'spoiler free' TL so you won't get to see tournament reports unless you click on them. And the people who don't care can just have the regular old 'TL'.
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I guess this calls for...
+ Show Spoiler +Poll: Does snoring hurt eSports?Probably. (23) 38% Yes. (16) 26% Unlikely. (11) 18% No. (4) 7% Maybe. (4) 7% I don't know. (3) 5% 61 total votes Your vote: Does snoring hurt eSports? (Vote): Yes.
(Vote): No.
(Vote): Maybe.
(Vote): Probably.
(Vote): Unlikely.
(Vote): I don't know.
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On October 13 2011 04:29 drcatellino wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 04:23 Shichibukai wrote:On October 13 2011 04:06 MonkSEA wrote:
I'm for having spoilers. Chances are that 50% of the people aren't even going to watch the tournament but still cry about spoilers. Does it matter? If 100 people cry about spoilers, and 99 of them weren't even going to watch the tournament anyway, there's still one whose viewing experience now is ruined or diminished. I don't get why this isn't crystal clear to everybody. ^_^ You're not getting instant results on the front page = minor inconvenience. Someone else not getting their results spoiled since he/she wants to watch the event from start to finish = huge deal. Why are you ignoring the suggestion I made in OP about an alternate TL spoilerfree page with all the VODs ? Or as some suggested, just an option to turn spoiler-news off when coming to the homepage. I think you really don’t understand the point I was trying to make in the OP. It is not just about “minor inconvenience” for the current TL users, it is about making the site user-friendly and with a lot of hype and excitement for the casual viewers/newcomers.
I'm curious as to why the site can't be just as user friendly with a lot of hype while also having a 24 hour no spoiler watch up. Do these new people who visit TL for the first time really care whether the event happened 5 minutes ago, yesterday or 2 days ago? A week or so I understand, but after a day it's suddenly less impactful? Well shit half the people on the planet will be missing out regardless then.
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On October 13 2011 04:15 zarepath wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 04:05 Cajun2k1 wrote:
OP has flawed reasoning imo. The fact that when a team / player wins a big championship is because it's covered in all the media. The different media organizations have to compete with each other to bring the news the fastest and with the best quality possible.
This isn't the case in ESports where there are a handful of sites with TL being the biggest by far. The audience is pretty fragmented with EU / NA / SEA timezones. While 'regular' sports are broadcasted by popularity, meaning that in Europe football is the biggest sport, so when there's a big match. It's being broadcasted at the most convenient moment, somewhere in the evening when the viewing potential is the biggest. In the case of ESports it's what the best for the organizers, keeping in mind that players can be fatigued or jet-lagged. Specially when it's a multiple day tournament.
You can't and shouldn't compare ESports with regular sports, because they're way too different of each other.
There's a lot of wisdom in this. However, your analysis doesn't really address the underlying question: why shouldn't TL have AP-style instant results coverage?
Because then there would be nowhere to go for the large part of the Starcraft community who do not want to be spoiled.
Mainstream sports have a bunch of websites, tv channels etc dedicated to them. If news site A spoils results, and streaming site B provides VOD's without spoilers, I'd quickly learn to go directly to B before visiting A.
For Starcraft II, gomtv.net is easy to remember. For smaller events I use the TL calendar, stream list, SC2 Tourneys forum, etc etc. TL.net is the main hub for everything Starcraft related (for foreigners). There is no site B.
Some events even have rebroadcasts for different timezones nowadays. Some people, like me, like to open up the LR thread and read it while watching the VOD's.
If instant results are desired by part of the community, give it to that part, through a news post full of spoilers. But as long as there's a group of people who don't want to be spoiled, no matter how few they become, it'd be devastating to them.
Btw, Rakaka.se is an example of a site that posts results instantly, surely there's something similar in English?
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I was going to come in here and post about how TL could potentially have a nice policy about what sort of events were spoiler-protected, and for how long, etc. etc.
But I just clicked on liquibet, had GSL Ro8 day 2 spoiled (it starts at 4am locally, the matches in question were no more than 9 hours ago), and raged. Fuck spoilers.
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EPT
