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On December 10 2011 03:56 FallDownMarigold wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 03:51 AxionSteel wrote:On December 10 2011 03:50 m0ck wrote:
I think it's about trusting your eyes. You get to see him play, in-eyes. How do you judge what you see? There's a lot of variance in tournament-results. Even if he gets 0-5 at the blizzard cup, I'll still rank him as the best foreigner. Seeing him play, he's fast, has great multi-tasking, decent makro, great control and is apparently able to come up with solutions to new problems on the fly. I can't say that I've seen any foreigner play that compares. And so I have to rank him as the best, because I have to trust my eyes. Yeah, some people are too dumb to make judgements for themselves "OMFG HE HASN'T BEATEN MVP OR NESTEA HE SUX". I can tell, from watching his stream how insanely good he is. Everything about his play is so fluent and polished, he's easily the most impressive zerg player i've watched. I wouldn't describe it as "sum peepz jess b stoopid lulz". I'd describe it as: "Some people require objective evidence upon which they can judge and determine who is the best -- or most successful in achieving meaningful wins at the highest level -- player. The rationale is that if indeed this subjectivity you describe (re: "fluent and polished") implies that he is the best, eventually his meaningful win rate will correlate. If not, then your logic is flawed, and the uniqueness of his play in fact does not translate to overall success where it counts. Being a player that *looks/feels so good* means nothing if there are no meaningful wins behind it in the long-term, overall scheme of things.
No, it does not imply that he is the best, It implies that he is a very skilled player, one whom I find extremely impressive to watch.
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On December 10 2011 04:00 MCDayC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 03:58 HappyChris wrote:On December 10 2011 03:42 FallDownMarigold wrote:On December 10 2011 03:30 KalWarkov wrote:
its just 1 of tons of proove how good he is, but haters fight reasons to denie anything good he does
Err... Just stop it. He's a pretty good foreign player, that's all there is to it. 'Nuff said. He's not the best, not the worst -- he's just pretty good and we'll leave it at that. I'm not sure how so many people are rationalizing so many big claims based off ladder performance over a short time frame. LOL Not the best lol you kidding me. No foreigner has got so many huge major lan tournament wins in the last 2 months. No foriegner has done what Stephano is doijng to the korean GM league. Just to compare idra is like 50 wins 45 loses in masters. Stephano 85 32 after 6 days in korea. 73% win ratio there is only one other zerg in the entire world that got +70 win ratio on the korean GM league and thats dRG and then there is Stephano. Hole of Korea are talking about him. Every korrean pro wanna practise with him.
Stephano is just not the best foreigner by a mile but one of the world best zergs and thats a fact!! Do you have any evidence of this? Sorry to sound rude, but thats a big deal if so.
Yes i do watch his Stream he get mass whispers from people asking to practise with him
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On December 10 2011 03:58 HappyChris wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 03:42 FallDownMarigold wrote:On December 10 2011 03:30 KalWarkov wrote:
its just 1 of tons of proove how good he is, but haters fight reasons to denie anything good he does
Err... Just stop it. He's a pretty good foreign player, that's all there is to it. 'Nuff said. He's not the best, not the worst -- he's just pretty good and we'll leave it at that. I'm not sure how so many people are rationalizing so many big claims based off ladder performance over a short time frame. LOL Not the best lol you kidding me. No foreigner has got so many huge major lan tournament wins in the last 2 months. No foriegner has done what Stephano is doijng to the korean GM league. Just to compare idra is like 50 wins 45 loses in masters. Stephano 85 32 after 6 days in korea. 73% win ratio there is only one other zerg in the entire world that got +70 win ratio on the korean GM league and thats dRG and then there is Stephano. Hole of Korea are talking about him. Every korrean pro wanna practise with him. Stephano is just not the best foreigner by a mile but one of the world best zergs and thats a fact!!
I'm sorry but HuK is the most achieved foreigner player. Not stephano. Stephano is good but if he can prove himself in Korea, he can be listed as one of the best. If not, then no.
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On December 10 2011 03:38 Shiori wrote:
I didn't say Stephano has bad mechanics.
Doesn't matter you are still a fucking idiot.
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On December 10 2011 03:49 Simonius wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 03:32 Shiori wrote:
I don't like Idra, no. I think he's overrated and childish. You don't have to be gimmicky to abuse particularly difficult things in the metagame right now. BL/infestor play is considered by most Protoss players to be virtually uncounterable outside of the mothership. This says a lot about the strength of the strategy. Nothing against Stephano for using it; I just don't think it's very original or a terribly good representation of stunning mechanics. The problem is it seems to be the only strategy that is able to beat a protoss in a macro game. Spinecrawler forests look stupid and noobish as hell but they seem to be the only effective mineral dump zerg has in late game so why not use them for example? Btw Stephano just got killed in a macro game on taldarim by a master toss who was able to catch like 20 broodlords in a vortex and finish them off instantly with like 3 or 4 archons. If his strategy seems gimmicky the protoss response is ten times as abusive. The game was instantly over after this btw.
It seems you're not familiar with Stephano's PvZ, he uses roaches/hydra/corruptors or mass roach a lot more than BL/infestors. You should probably watch his games from the IPL4 UK qualifier where he won against 5 or 6 protoss in a row to win the whole thing (including a 2-0 win against Sase with mass roaches)
The main strengh of Stephano is his unit control and regardless of the strategy he is using, it will always be what makes him so successful both in ladder and tournament play.
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On December 10 2011 03:59 Awesomeness wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 03:50 FallDownMarigold wrote:On December 10 2011 03:44 m0ck wrote:On December 10 2011 03:42 FallDownMarigold wrote:On December 10 2011 03:30 KalWarkov wrote:
its just 1 of tons of proove how good he is, but haters fight reasons to denie anything good he does
Err... Just stop it. He's a pretty good foreign player, that's all there is to it. 'Nuff said. He's not the best, not the worst -- he's just pretty good and we'll leave it at that. I'm not sure how so many people are rationalizing so many big claims based off ladder performance over a short time frame. LOL Well, that's just opinion. And I believe he is the best. Who do you rank in that position? Who do I rank in the best position? Nobody. I do not feel compelled to rank something that is impossible to quantify. I would be able to name a "best foreigner" if and only if one emerges who wins multiple big tournaments at a consistent rate for over a year. Only then would there be something remotely close to an objective basis for "best foreigner" title. Would you agree that Stephano is "one of the best" at least?
Without a doubt, I agree that Stephano is "one of the best".
My point is to demonstrate that objective rankings applied without objective, evidence-based rationale are illogical in my opinion. One cannot objectively categorize players based on some term called "best player" by an ambiguous set of metrics such as "fluid play" etc. IMO
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On December 10 2011 04:01 Ventor wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 03:58 HappyChris wrote:On December 10 2011 03:42 FallDownMarigold wrote:On December 10 2011 03:30 KalWarkov wrote:
its just 1 of tons of proove how good he is, but haters fight reasons to denie anything good he does
Err... Just stop it. He's a pretty good foreign player, that's all there is to it. 'Nuff said. He's not the best, not the worst -- he's just pretty good and we'll leave it at that. I'm not sure how so many people are rationalizing so many big claims based off ladder performance over a short time frame. LOL Not the best lol you kidding me. No foreigner has got so many huge major lan tournament wins in the last 2 months. No foriegner has done what Stephano is doijng to the korean GM league. Just to compare idra is like 50 wins 45 loses in masters. Stephano 85 32 after 6 days in korea. 73% win ratio there is only one other zerg in the entire world that got +70 win ratio on the korean GM league and thats dRG and then there is Stephano. Hole of Korea are talking about him. Every korrean pro wanna practise with him. Stephano is just not the best foreigner by a mile but one of the world best zergs and thats a fact!! I'm sorry but HuK is the most achieved foreigner player. Not stephano. Stephano is good but if he can prove himself in Korea, he can be listed as one of the best. If not, then no.
Huk won 1 MLG the last 2 months Stephano won 3 major tournament beaitng koreans left and right. Really come on! -And btw he is allrdy proving himself in Korea!
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On December 10 2011 04:03 FallDownMarigold wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 03:59 Awesomeness wrote:On December 10 2011 03:50 FallDownMarigold wrote:On December 10 2011 03:44 m0ck wrote:On December 10 2011 03:42 FallDownMarigold wrote:On December 10 2011 03:30 KalWarkov wrote:
its just 1 of tons of proove how good he is, but haters fight reasons to denie anything good he does
Err... Just stop it. He's a pretty good foreign player, that's all there is to it. 'Nuff said. He's not the best, not the worst -- he's just pretty good and we'll leave it at that. I'm not sure how so many people are rationalizing so many big claims based off ladder performance over a short time frame. LOL Well, that's just opinion. And I believe he is the best. Who do you rank in that position? Who do I rank in the best position? Nobody. I do not feel compelled to rank something that is impossible to quantify. I would be able to name a "best foreigner" if and only if one emerges who wins multiple big tournaments at a consistent rate for over a year. Only then would there be something remotely close to an objective basis for "best foreigner" title. Would you agree that Stephano is "one of the best" at least? Without a doubt, I agree that Stephano is "one of the best". My point is to demonstrate that objective rankings applied without objective, evidence-based rationale are illogical in my opinion. One cannot objectively categorize players based on some term called "best player" by an ambiguous set of metrics such as "fluid play" etc. IMO
That's why we have ladders and tournaments.
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On December 10 2011 03:23 KalWarkov wrote:
you guys are funny srsly.
Stephano has that huge ladderrun
--> ladder doesnt mean shit
Stephano wins ipl qualifier over MMA
--> lolol online, he is bad offline
Stephano wins ipl
--> well, he had a lucky grid
Stephano loses to boxer @ mlg (after winning ipl)
--> see, stephano is bad!!!! his style is figured out obv!
Stephano wins ESWC vs MKP and ipl4 qualifier over tails and ryung
---> what? i didnt even see the tournament, there are tournaments in europe?
Stephano goes to korea, smashes the ladder going top 30 GM after 4 days with over 70% winrate, beating sage and forGG
--> lucky, abusive player.
When do you guys realize that hes just one of the best zergs on this planet -,-
haters gonna hate...
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Besides these 3 major lans he easiliy won several big european online cups too(msi pro cup 1,3,4 for example) Every single one of these cups had like all the best european pros in its grid.
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On December 10 2011 04:01 HappyChris wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 04:00 MCDayC wrote:On December 10 2011 03:58 HappyChris wrote:On December 10 2011 03:42 FallDownMarigold wrote:On December 10 2011 03:30 KalWarkov wrote:
its just 1 of tons of proove how good he is, but haters fight reasons to denie anything good he does
Err... Just stop it. He's a pretty good foreign player, that's all there is to it. 'Nuff said. He's not the best, not the worst -- he's just pretty good and we'll leave it at that. I'm not sure how so many people are rationalizing so many big claims based off ladder performance over a short time frame. LOL Not the best lol you kidding me. No foreigner has got so many huge major lan tournament wins in the last 2 months. No foriegner has done what Stephano is doijng to the korean GM league. Just to compare idra is like 50 wins 45 loses in masters. Stephano 85 32 after 6 days in korea. 73% win ratio there is only one other zerg in the entire world that got +70 win ratio on the korean GM league and thats dRG and then there is Stephano. Hole of Korea are talking about him. Every korrean pro wanna practise with him.
Stephano is just not the best foreigner by a mile but one of the world best zergs and thats a fact!! Do you have any evidence of this? Sorry to sound rude, but thats a big deal if so. Yes i do watch his Stream he get mass whispers from people asking to practise with him
its actually funny cuz he always ignores them haha
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On December 10 2011 04:00 MCDayC wrote:
Do you have any evidence of this? Sorry to sound rude, but thats a big deal if so.
On December 08 2011 09:30 Hazuc wrote:![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ec4Ru.jpg)
Here you go, biggest sc2 forum in Korea
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On December 10 2011 04:08 KainiT wrote:
Besides these 3 major lans he easiliy won several big european online cups too(msi pro cup 1,3,4 for example) Every single one of these cups had like all the best european pros in its grid.
This cup is organize by Millenium, he obviously cheat
+ Show Spoiler +
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On December 10 2011 04:07 leo23 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 03:23 KalWarkov wrote:
you guys are funny srsly.
Stephano has that huge ladderrun
--> ladder doesnt mean shit
Stephano wins ipl qualifier over MMA
--> lolol online, he is bad offline
Stephano wins ipl
--> well, he had a lucky grid
Stephano loses to boxer @ mlg (after winning ipl)
--> see, stephano is bad!!!! his style is figured out obv!
Stephano wins ESWC vs MKP and ipl4 qualifier over tails and ryung
---> what? i didnt even see the tournament, there are tournaments in europe?
Stephano goes to korea, smashes the ladder going top 30 GM after 4 days with over 70% winrate, beating sage and forGG
--> lucky, abusive player.
When do you guys realize that hes just one of the best zergs on this planet -,- haters gonna hate...
Its actually funny reading that list of achievement I got no idea how haters can still hate lol.
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On December 10 2011 04:01 Ventor wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 03:58 HappyChris wrote:On December 10 2011 03:42 FallDownMarigold wrote:On December 10 2011 03:30 KalWarkov wrote:
its just 1 of tons of proove how good he is, but haters fight reasons to denie anything good he does
Err... Just stop it. He's a pretty good foreign player, that's all there is to it. 'Nuff said. He's not the best, not the worst -- he's just pretty good and we'll leave it at that. I'm not sure how so many people are rationalizing so many big claims based off ladder performance over a short time frame. LOL Not the best lol you kidding me. No foreigner has got so many huge major lan tournament wins in the last 2 months. No foriegner has done what Stephano is doijng to the korean GM league. Just to compare idra is like 50 wins 45 loses in masters. Stephano 85 32 after 6 days in korea. 73% win ratio there is only one other zerg in the entire world that got +70 win ratio on the korean GM league and thats dRG and then there is Stephano. Hole of Korea are talking about him. Every korrean pro wanna practise with him. Stephano is just not the best foreigner by a mile but one of the world best zergs and thats a fact!! I'm sorry but HuK is the most achieved foreigner player. Not stephano. Stephano is good but if he can prove himself in Korea, he can be listed as one of the best. If not, then no.
one of... them?
its just huk, no1 else, who is more accomplished if you take pure results.
your pre-speaker obviously goes too far again... he is not "the best foreigner by miles", he is one of the best 5 at least though.
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On December 10 2011 03:56 FallDownMarigold wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 03:51 AxionSteel wrote:On December 10 2011 03:50 m0ck wrote:
I think it's about trusting your eyes. You get to see him play, in-eyes. How do you judge what you see? There's a lot of variance in tournament-results. Even if he gets 0-5 at the blizzard cup, I'll still rank him as the best foreigner. Seeing him play, he's fast, has great multi-tasking, decent makro, great control and is apparently able to come up with solutions to new problems on the fly. I can't say that I've seen any foreigner play that compares. And so I have to rank him as the best, because I have to trust my eyes. Yeah, some people are too dumb to make judgements for themselves "OMFG HE HASN'T BEATEN MVP OR NESTEA HE SUX". I can tell, from watching his stream how insanely good he is. Everything about his play is so fluent and polished, he's easily the most impressive zerg player i've watched. I wouldn't describe it as "sum peepz jess b stoopid lulz". I'd describe it as: "Some people require objective evidence upon which they can judge and determine who is the best -- or most successful in achieving meaningful wins at the highest level -- player. The rationale is that if indeed this subjectivity you describe (re: "fluent and polished") implies that he is the best, eventually his meaningful win rate will correlate. If not, then your logic is flawed, and the uniqueness of his play in fact does not translate to overall success where it counts. Being a player that *looks/feels so good* means nothing if there are no meaningful wins behind it in the long-term, overall scheme of things.
You use your metric of quality, I'll use mine 
Yours is, if I understand you correctly, 'he who wins the tournament is the best, because that is the only measurement not based on a subjective opinion'. Well, fair enough. But I don't agree that the is the only meaningful way of judging the quality of players, nor do I think it paints the full picture. What you call 'objective' is just a perspective on the players and how good they are. You put that perspective on a pedestal and claim that it's the only worthwhile way of judging the players. Well, is Idra the ~40th best player at WCG?
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France13023 Posts
On December 10 2011 03:30 KalWarkov wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 03:24 striderxxx wrote:On December 10 2011 03:21 Maenander wrote:
Stephano reached the top25, rank 17 currently. Simply amazing. why is this considered amazing?? every pro has done that on the KR ladder at one point. who exactly? no foreigner EVER got that high to my knowledge. no huk, no sase, no naniwa, no idra. not nearly as high. and he plays for 5 days. its just 1 of tons of proove how good he is, but haters fight reasons to denie anything good he does Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 03:29 SafeAsCheese wrote:On December 10 2011 03:19 KalWarkov wrote:On December 10 2011 03:15 m0ck wrote:On December 10 2011 03:12 Shiori wrote:On December 10 2011 02:55 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Stephano is really good fundamentally, but I really wish he would take the time to practice some non ling infestor ultra builds. If people catch onto you it becomes much, much more difficult to win. Pretty much this. I really feel like, and I don't mean this insultingly, Stephano is an "abusive" Zerg player. I don't think he's winning because of his mechanics or innovative strategies. He found something that's really, really hard for players to deal with (Toss especially) and he keeps doing. You mean like an innovative strategy that is hard to deal with? People that say Stephano has bad mechanics have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. abusive zerg player. hahahahaha. IdrA fanboy i assume? You know you can actually make arguments without insulting other players, right? Who did i insult? Im not insulting IdrA at all, but his fans often seem to see things kind of 1 sided. + you insult stephano in this thread all the time.
SaSe got top 16 a couple times...
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As for the people still doubting Stephano :
In 3 months, :
He won 1 major tournament (IPL3).
He won 2 fairly big tournaments (ESWC & IPL4 qualifier).
He crushed top europeans players in online cups (Millenium cup).
He had a sick winrate and the #1 spot in the euro ladder.
He is currently doing amazingly well on the korean ladder after 5 days of practice.
He won more prize money than any other foreigners.
Not sure how you can objectively not consider him at least top 3 foreigner with those achievements.
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On December 10 2011 04:10 Dawg_Snow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 04:00 MCDayC wrote:
Do you have any evidence of this? Sorry to sound rude, but thats a big deal if so. Here you go, biggest sc2 forum in Korea
Again but the Hydra must study !
Lazy Hydralisks...
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Seriously. I'm a huge Idra fanboy admittedly, but this guy is something else. He outclasses Idra and any other foreigner by such a large amount it is ridiculous.
Not saying Idra and others will never be able to catch up, but for now, Stephano is definitively the best foreigner playing the game today. Objectively better even. You don't need tournament results (of which he has plenty with more to come for sure) to come to the conclusion. It's like watching ForGG play right now. You know there's something special about what he does, even though he hasn't had any major success yet (in SC2).
Can't wait to see him win the Blizzard cup : )
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EPT
