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On September 23 2011 08:46 b0t wrote:
>>Do you feel this is an accurate depiciton of the current state of the game?
I feel SC2 is a very complex game and Blizzard does not have employees smart enough to balance it. These statistics are completely, absolutely, mega, super meaningless as the MMR score depends on the race balance. IMHO a better (not perfect) way is to look at APMs - what is the win rate of Protoss players with 135-140 APM against Terran players with 135-140 APM.
If Blizzard cares about community's view on balance they should publish the anonymized row data, then everyone can run his own analysis.
APM is a fucking terrible metric to base skill on. I have ~130apm in high masters. I beat dignitas.merz with his 400+ apm ZvT. Does that mean Zerg is imbalanced, I'm a better player than merz, or things just happened to go my way one game?
Conversely, is a 200apm spammer (80 adjusted apm on 1.4) more skilled than a 120 apm (110 adjusted apm on 1.4) player?
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The real reason toss is struggling right now is becuase up until now they have had the easiest race and now when its starting to get more towards balance(which is still far away) they are having trouble because they havent dont anything to adapt like zergs and terrans, they are just less skilled than other progammers in my opinion. (No this isnt and idra Smurf)
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Neural nerf was already critized because by trying to balance PvZ they were gonna leave the deathball with no counter and make worse the already unbalanced ZvT.
Now the icing on the cake, we just learn that PvZ was P favored anyway. I have no idea what's blizzard doing. And i wonder if they do.
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On September 23 2011 09:54 RevoNinja wrote:
The real reason toss is struggling right now is becuase up until now they have had the easiest race and now when its starting to get more towards balance(which is still far away) they are having trouble because they havent dont anything to adapt like zergs and terrans, they are just less skilled than other progammers in my opinion. (No this isnt and idra Smurf)
The last phrase gives you away IdrA :\
jokes aside, it's funny to think that Protoss havent had to "adapt" even after warpgate nerf, KA removal and VR changes.
I have to agree however that they are in a situation similar to Zergs a few months ago, that had to basically guess how to defend themselves against 4gate variations(anyone remembers MC's 5gate nexus cancel?), now they are the ones struggling.
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On September 23 2011 09:54 RevoNinja wrote:
The real reason toss is struggling right now is becuase up until now they have had the easiest race and now when its starting to get more towards balance(which is still far away) they are having trouble because they havent dont anything to adapt like zergs and terrans, they are just less skilled than other progammers in my opinion. (No this isnt and idra Smurf)
I have to agree... protoss progamers just seem so less skilled compared to the zerg and still they are in even footing.
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From my personal view point, my biggest concern is that the games at the pro level to watch are interesting and right now they feel a little too predictable based on the match up. I play random on the ladder at the moment, although I feel Protoss is my main race if I had to pick it and I feel a lot of the supposed imbalances between races don't really affect me. Of course that mostly is because I am not that great at the game.
My biggest worry is that if long term we have Terran domination in things like the GSL, that I will stop watching professional starcraft and then my own desire to ladder myself will go with it.
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On September 23 2011 10:03 BenAD wrote:
From my personal view point, my biggest concern is that the games at the pro level to watch are interesting and right now they feel a little too predictable based on the match up. I play random on the ladder at the moment, although I feel Protoss is my main race if I had to pick it and I feel a lot of the supposed imbalances between races don't really affect me. Of course that mostly is because I am not that great at the game.
My biggest worry is that if long term we have Terran domination in things like the GSL, that I will stop watching professional starcraft and then my own desire to ladder myself will go with it.
What would be a good way to get around that though? I mean, should we have a certain number of race-slots open for each race, to keep a more balanced number in the GSL? I'll admit i stopped watching a while ago, and have absolutely no desire to watch GSL with 20 terrans
i mean, it's just interesting to think about what we need to change in order to keep the game fun and watchable, because that's where the money comes from, people ACTUALLY watching
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On September 23 2011 06:06 Noev wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 05:52 ChriseC wrote:
there are some things that i dont understand
ladder system tries to keep you to 50% win/lose ratio, so isnt it representitive at all? Yeah thats something i don't understand also, if there system tries to keep everyone at a 50/50 point then these numbers are irrelevant because even if one match up is broken or imbalanced the system will just place them vs people worse until they are able to win in that match up. I guess it could be counter acted by them doing really well in the other two match ups but still it something to think about is this really balance or just there system working really well.
Yea, but blizzard also adjusts the win percentages, so if they happened to put me (Plat) vs. HuK, and i got demolished, it wouldn't weigh that win as much as if huk played another GM player. They use their formula and back out who should have won based on MMR, they don't just look at raw win percentages
(This is based off the fact that they said, "We have adjusted for win percentages" in their quote)
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aanyone else see bright white lines of text after you scroll on to the brighter background of TL? haha
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On September 23 2011 09:38 Channel Pressure wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 02:24 Brotocol wrote:On September 23 2011 02:21 Soma.bokforlag wrote:
matchmaking doesnt mean that a platinum terran gets matched against diamond zerg and toss and gold terran.
if terran is OP this would show even in stats from lower leagues
this is of course in the case that balance works the same across leagues, which it doesnt. it is extremely hard for blizzard to balance the game on all levels. what do you do if its balanced for masters and lower? patch the game just for GM and e-sports? Misconception. What it really means to "balance for the highest level of play" is that the strongest play must be balanced, but this should automatically scale down to all levels because skill levels are relative. If it's balanced for players that have skill levels of 150, then it should automatically ensure balance for skill level 5. Im glad somebody said this! I dont know where people get this false notion that balancing the game "at the highest level of play" (I don't even know what that means) is bad for everyone else. If the game is balanced at the highest level, it will logically be balanced at every level. Your skill/lack of skill is non-sequitur. This has been demonstrated in every competative game that has been patched, particularly broken "tiers" in fighting games.
Actually no, that does not logically follow.
Let us assume that "skill" is a quantity that can be objectively measured. Now, let us say you have a game that is perfectly balanced if both players have 100 skill. This means that, in games that 100 skill players play, they will each win ~50% of the time.
Let's suppose that one of the races in the game has a strategy that requires 50 skill to execute. The other races can defend the strategy, but defending it requires 75 skill. If you don't yave 75 skill, you will lose to the strategy ~70% of the time.
Now, the game is still perfectly balanced at the 100 skill level, because the defending player has enough skill to defend the strategy successfully. But at the 60 skill level, if you put two 60 skill players together, the one who has access to the 50-skill strat will consistently beat any player up to 75 skill.
You might say that this is an artificial problem. But it isn't; this is reality, and it always has been for StarCraft.
Rushes are that kind of strategy. Defending rushes is always harder than executing them. Defending rushes requires more skill than executing them. Early game timing attacks are the same way: defending requires more work. You have to scout. You have to know that the strategy exists. You have to see signs of the strategy, so you have to know what to scout for. And then you have to execute a defense of it.
For 100 skill players, that's easy. For 60 skill players, it's beyond their current abilities. Therefore, they will consistently lose to 50 skill players. This is why rushes in lower leagues are common: because they are the most effective way to win when you don't have much skill.
So no, balance for high level play does not "automatically scale down to all levels".
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In statistic math, anything outside of 5% difference is consisted significant.
so 45%:55% anything outside of that would mean a significant in imbalance, so I'm not sure why blizzard said "its only after the ratio exceeds 40%:60% ??????
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On September 23 2011 10:19 motiust wrote:
In statistic math, anything outside of 5% difference is consisted significant.
so 45%:55% anything outside of that would mean a significant in imbalance, so I'm not sure why blizzard said "its only after the ratio exceeds 40%:60% ??????
Gonna guess meta game shifts make the stats fluctuate further than the 45/55 range without any actual imbalance being there, just people figuring new things out and I would agree that a big meta game shift could make MUs act tahat way. But I do agree with their cut off, 40/60 seems too far.
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FWIW, from listening to the Chinese commentators of GSL games and their thoughts on Chinese terrans, they seem to attribute the imbalance not to the race itself, but the fact that terran simply has a higher skill cap.
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On September 23 2011 10:36 baubo wrote:
FWIW, from listening to the Chinese commentators of GSL games and their thoughts on Chinese terrans, they seem to attribute the imbalance not to the race itself, but the fact that terran simply has a higher skill cap.
People say this often but I never see a good argument to support the claim. The way the majority of terran players handle drops... it's not that impressive. In fact, the notable low apm pro gamers are Terrans. The race seems to cover for mechanical shortcomings. Ghost play has been pretty subpar up til this point and isn't comparable to storm placement imo or feedback useage. Siege tanks aren't used that often so I wouldn't give them props for strategic wisdom as I would a BW terran....
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sooooo nerf everything i guess ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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On September 23 2011 09:47 Condor Hero wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 08:39 vict1019 wrote:
So balanced. People need to stop believing everything the Protoss players on SOTG say. And never watch GSL.
Right, because a few series represent thousands of games. You are correct Mr.Math.
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On September 23 2011 01:38 chadissilent wrote:
Nerf Fungal Growth.
User was warned for this post
It's been nerfed already. Check the 1.4 patch notes.
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On September 23 2011 10:40 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 10:36 baubo wrote:
FWIW, from listening to the Chinese commentators of GSL games and their thoughts on Chinese terrans, they seem to attribute the imbalance not to the race itself, but the fact that terran simply has a higher skill cap.
People say this often but I never see a good argument to support the claim. The way the majority of terran players handle drops... it's not that impressive. In fact, the notable low apm pro gamers are Terrans. The race seems to cover for mechanical shortcomings. Ghost play has been pretty subpar up til this point and isn't comparable to storm placement imo or feedback useage. Siege tanks aren't used that often so I wouldn't give them props for strategic wisdom as I would a BW terran....
Tanks are used in 2 of the Terran MUs.......
Why do people act as if this was launch and all Terran are doing is MMM?
APM has never implied skill. IIRC Flash doesn't have the highest APM in BW and I don't think anybody will claim he is not the most skilled player
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On September 23 2011 08:54 secretary bird wrote:
gtfo with your Code S whining, yea 20 terrans we know its mentioned in every thread on TL.
I bet you guys didnt even look at the numbers because you already knew what you wanted to say.
So a perfect 1/3 distribution means perfect balance huh? 32 isnt even dividable by 3 so I guess its impossible might as well give up on balance.
What about the fact that everyone and their mother plays terran in Korea should we take that into account? Na that just proves the imbalance obviously.
There were only 6 korean terrans in code A but who gives a fuck they re low level scrubs lolol.
how about we look at the makeup of races that made it to the round of 16 in code a
protoss, 33% make it trhough
terran 62.5% make it through
zerg 58% make it through
and no a perfect distribution would be 11/11/10
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Sigh. Pre patch data shows imbalance PvZ in favor of protoss (according to their numbers, 5%<) NA and Europe and balanced in Korea according to their numbers (same with TvZ) yet protoss gets buffed(obviously for PvT though) and infestors get nerfed :/ I realize GSL protoss are having a hard time, but at least in PvZ (I don't know much about PvT), a lot of the time they make pretty bad decisions and lose; I wish they would have waited longer on this patch from a zerg perspective.
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On September 23 2011 09:54 RevoNinja wrote:
The real reason toss is struggling right now is becuase up until now they have had the easiest race and now when its starting to get more towards balance(which is still far away) they are having trouble because they havent dont anything to adapt like zergs and terrans, they are just less skilled than other progammers in my opinion. (No this isnt and idra Smurf)
I suspect reality is quite the opposite. Protoss started using every unit in their techtree while still in the beta, while Terrans especially figured Marine/Marauder/Medivac was the solution to everything. The result was that the races were balanced accordingly - so that the entire Protoss techtree matched up well against a fraction of other races', essentially crippling them. Now Terrans have finally, after a year, realised that they can actually use others of the awesome units at their disposal, so they're at the position Protoss were long, long ago. Except the Protoss have been repeatedly nerfed from that time.
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EPT
